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On May 27 2011 14:50 TheLink wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 14:46 krbz wrote:On May 27 2011 14:32 sermokala wrote:
I find the theory of evolution as tought by the science elite to be personally offensive and strongly against my personal views. I find all the "science" behind it to be strongly painted against my religious views. Its the same as if the bible was made into the curriculum for English sense it was the first mass printed book. Evolution is backed by studies, experiments, statistics, and is widely verifiable by many people. Christianity is backed by nothing but a 2000 year old book. The two are not in any way comparable. You're situation is flawed. See thats an Atheists argument though. I would argue that Christianity is backed up by thousands of years of history. Evolution is a flawed aspect of science that fails to take into account divine power as a factor. (No these aren't my views, I'm just playing devil's advocate to point out a fallacy in your argument)
Christianity is backed up by "stories" compiled into a book. The history is only of the stories and completely untestable. I would also like to add that they are stories from an age that had very little understanding of the world around them. They couldn't explain things so they created something to provide that explanation.
Scientific theory cannot take divine power into consideration as it cannot be subjected to testing and verified by multiple parties. It cannot stand in a scientific setting because all a religious follower can present is the book the have "faith" in.
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is awesome32281 Posts
On May 27 2011 15:05 EmeraldSparks wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:02 VIB wrote:On May 27 2011 13:47 Torte de Lini wrote:
I think knowing his situation, he should have just obliged and pretended to pray. It's fine that he's standing up for his rights, but as you can see, he didn't gain as much as he lost especially if he knew (and he most likely did) that the surrounding community around him as well as the governing body, were heavily christian.
It's just a bad move on his part, he should have considered more than his individual rights that don't necessarily hurt or affect him to the extent or degree he is in now. What a small and limited perception. If everyone thought like that we would still be living in caves because you'd feel cold for a few seconds if you try to move out. What Fowler accomplished is much bigger than himself. Oh he lost his immediate short term financial support and a few uneducated morons will hate him for a few weeks. What will be of his life? ¬¬ On the other hand he gained much more life experience, long term respect, friends and helped improve his whole nation more than 99.9% of the people in this forum ever will. he made a bunch of religious people angry he also traded an old community for a new one i don't see what the tremendous achievement is there
He stood for what he think it's right?
He discovered his parents are idiots now, instead of realizing it 10 years from now?
He gets support from people and will get the chance to move from a place where no one respects him for what he is, where he can start a new life without all those people full of hate around him?
He brought a problem into light for other people like that, to realize discuss and might set things straight in the future for kids that go to the same school?
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On May 27 2011 15:04 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:00 Echophantom wrote:
I think the most interesting part of this thread is the people who are saying that even though the law says one thing, Damon should have just kept his head down and not said anything. The idea of not doing the right thing because it's unpopular is really depressing, when you think about it.
Fowler was arguing in favor of the law, as established above by the Lemon Test, and the notion of separation of church and state as a whole. The school was inconvenienced, but only because it was breaking the law in the first place. Had the school followed federal law regarding the situation, none of this would have been necessary. But now a kid has basically been driven out of town for fighting for U.S. law in a city that probably, ironically, calls itself very patriotic and American. you're making the argument that the lawful thing is the right thing to do when you say that I personally think it's a silly law, let people pray all they want (or for that matter mumble whatever rubbish they want), so long as it doesn't make a habit of disrupting the peace
People ARE allowed to mumble or pray what they want. It's like nobody in here is reading the thread or unstands the law.
The problem is that the SCHOOL chose a REPRESENTATIVE (in this case a bitchy student) to lead a prayer as part of the graduating ceremony in a secular public school. According to the case law, this is illegal. If they just had a moment of silence, said nothing, and people could pray on their own, that's legal.
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I don't believe his actions are altruistic at all
would the prayer have hurt anyone? no
he should have just let it be as a matter of respecting a community tradition
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On May 27 2011 15:05 EmeraldSparks wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:02 VIB wrote:On May 27 2011 13:47 Torte de Lini wrote:
I think knowing his situation, he should have just obliged and pretended to pray. It's fine that he's standing up for his rights, but as you can see, he didn't gain as much as he lost especially if he knew (and he most likely did) that the surrounding community around him as well as the governing body, were heavily christian.
It's just a bad move on his part, he should have considered more than his individual rights that don't necessarily hurt or affect him to the extent or degree he is in now. What a small and limited perception. If everyone thought like that we would still be living in caves because you'd feel cold for a few seconds if you try to move out. What Fowler accomplished is much bigger than himself. Oh he lost his immediate short term financial support and a few uneducated morons will hate him for a few weeks. What will be of his life? ¬¬ On the other hand he gained much more life experience, long term respect, friends and helped improve his whole nation more than 99.9% of the people in this forum ever will. he made a bunch of religious people angry he also traded an old community for a new one i don't see what the tremendous achievement is there He just made the world a better place. What's the big deal?
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This is just disgusting behavior on that community's part. Absolutely disgusting, morally abhorrent and hypocritical there are times where I just lose any trust in humanity.
It's odd you know I've been to parts of the bible belt (not louisiana but I imagine it is fairly similar) and they are some of the nicest and most generous people but then this shit happens...fuck.
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Fowler was NOT thrown out of his community for religious beliefs lets make that straight right now. He was thrown out for destroying religious activities in his local school, theres a big difference. He alienated his community by shitting all over an activity they loved. He was not alienated for being an athiest.
Of course he is legally correct in doing so. Just like his parents are legally allowed to disown him since he's 18. The other students are obviously doing something illegal with the bullying but bullying is a different matter entirely. Whoever leaked his name may be liable for some form of punishment but I don't know the law/circumstances behind that one.
Everything (except possibly the identity leak) has been perfectly legal so far. What we are arguing is the MORALS of the situation. To everyone who is arguing that he was standing up for his rights are correct. Just as the parents are standing up for their rights in disowning him.
Edit: TL;DR - Whilst everyone is legally correct Fowler is just as morally reprehensible as the community.
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Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 14:36 Supamang wrote:On May 27 2011 14:25 EmeraldSparks wrote:On May 27 2011 14:24 Spicy Pepper wrote:
So as long as it's the religion of the majority, it's unwise for the minority to speak up about an unconstitutional practice according to some of you. Let's defend the 1st Amendment when it just suits us. that's good advice some people are so dumb that they shouldn't have first amendment rights unfortunately the law doesn't work that way Youre unbelievable man. If people followed that advice, slavery would never have been abolished, the civil rights act would never have gone through, etc. If people just decided to hide in their corners when a strong threat passed overhead, nothing would ever change for the better. It might be "smarter" to sit back, renounce your beliefs, and go along your merry way, but if no one fights for what they believe in, how do we progress as a society? that's not true slavery is bad because the ownership of people is demeaning and inhuman furthermore it is an economically inefficient use of labor but i was speaking more generally about first amendment freedom of speech rights like some people are really too dumb to be allowed to voice their opinions it's not really relevant to this debate over religion though
Theres so much sarcasm in this thread in general that i cant tell whos being serious anymore
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On May 27 2011 15:08 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:05 EmeraldSparks wrote:On May 27 2011 15:02 VIB wrote:On May 27 2011 13:47 Torte de Lini wrote:
I think knowing his situation, he should have just obliged and pretended to pray. It's fine that he's standing up for his rights, but as you can see, he didn't gain as much as he lost especially if he knew (and he most likely did) that the surrounding community around him as well as the governing body, were heavily christian.
It's just a bad move on his part, he should have considered more than his individual rights that don't necessarily hurt or affect him to the extent or degree he is in now. What a small and limited perception. If everyone thought like that we would still be living in caves because you'd feel cold for a few seconds if you try to move out. What Fowler accomplished is much bigger than himself. Oh he lost his immediate short term financial support and a few uneducated morons will hate him for a few weeks. What will be of his life? ¬¬ On the other hand he gained much more life experience, long term respect, friends and helped improve his whole nation more than 99.9% of the people in this forum ever will. he made a bunch of religious people angry he also traded an old community for a new one i don't see what the tremendous achievement is there He stood for what he think it's right? He discovered his parents are idiots now, instead of realizing it 10 years from now? He gets support from people and will get the chance to move from a place where no one respects him for what he is, where he can start a new life without all those people full of hate around him? He brought a problem into light for other people like that, to realize discuss and might set things straight in the future for kids that go to the same school?
He also got 16k for college. Not a bad pick up if I do say so myself.
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What Fowler accomplished is much bigger than himself. Oh he lost his immediate short term financial support and a few uneducated morons will hate him for a few weeks. What will be of his life? ¬¬ On the other hand he gained much more life experience, long term respect, friends and helped improve his whole nation more than 99.9% of the people in this forum ever will.
So he gets a new social and I guess financial support group, and the Johnny Rebs got to keep their prayer?
What's the big deal? Sounds like everybody won!
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is awesome32281 Posts
On May 27 2011 15:09 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
I don't believe his actions are altruistic at all
would the prayer have hurt anyone? no
he should have just let it be as a matter of respecting a community tradition
illegal community tradiction*
edit: Me being naked in the street isn't hurting anybody, they should just let me do it :O
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On May 27 2011 15:08 Zzoram wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:04 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 27 2011 15:00 Echophantom wrote:
I think the most interesting part of this thread is the people who are saying that even though the law says one thing, Damon should have just kept his head down and not said anything. The idea of not doing the right thing because it's unpopular is really depressing, when you think about it.
Fowler was arguing in favor of the law, as established above by the Lemon Test, and the notion of separation of church and state as a whole. The school was inconvenienced, but only because it was breaking the law in the first place. Had the school followed federal law regarding the situation, none of this would have been necessary. But now a kid has basically been driven out of town for fighting for U.S. law in a city that probably, ironically, calls itself very patriotic and American. you're making the argument that the lawful thing is the right thing to do when you say that I personally think it's a silly law, let people pray all they want (or for that matter mumble whatever rubbish they want), so long as it doesn't make a habit of disrupting the peace People ARE allowed to mumble or pray what they want. It's like nobody in here is reading the thread or unstands the law. The problem is that the SCHOOL chose a REPRESENTATIVE (in this case a bitchy student) to lead a prayer as part of the graduating ceremony in a secular public school. According to the case law, this is illegal. If they just had a moment of silence, said nothing, and people could pray on their own, that's legal.
I understand how it works and I think that is a silly law. maybe that's because I'm completely unoffended by all of this in the first place
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On May 27 2011 15:09 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:09 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
I don't believe his actions are altruistic at all
would the prayer have hurt anyone? no
he should have just let it be as a matter of respecting a community tradition illegal community tradiction* edit: Me being naked in the street isn't hurting anybody, they should just let me do it :O
sure it's a crime, but it's a victimless crime
if there was a law against scratching your head with both hands at the same time and I saw someone do it, I wouldn't report it or care at all
it's illegal, therefore it is wrong, right? oh wait
edit: and are you really going to argue those two are similar?
a minute or two of someone peacefully speaking, even if I disagree with them = indecent exposure
great argument there
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I hate how teamliquid is so large these days that a thread like this gets spammed with replies making each reply less meaningful as it is caught up in all the clutter.
What he did was something I wouldn't. Obviously speaking out would incur severe repercussions and possibly the wrath of many. However, if everyone was like me, no change would happen either. Reminds me of Rosa Parks and how she should have just "sat in the back".
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On May 27 2011 15:07 Emperor_Earth wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 27 2011 15:02 valedictory wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:00 Echophantom wrote:
I think the most interesting part of this thread is the people who are saying that even though the law says one thing, Damon should have just kept his head down and not said anything. The idea of not doing the right thing because it's unpopular is really depressing, when you think about it.
Fowler was arguing in favor of the law, as established above by the Lemon Test, and the notion of separation of church and state as a whole. The school was inconvenienced, but only because it was breaking the law in the first place. Had the school followed federal law regarding the situation, none of this would have been necessary. But now a kid has basically been driven out of town for fighting for U.S. law in a city that probably, ironically, calls itself very patriotic and American. I think they are saying Fowler acted wrongly on moral grounds. I think they are saying Fowler didn't act in his own best interests and his actions were very altruistic.
Certainly the argument has been presented that way, but then it's more state of fact than taking a position. I don't really see any other argument other than 'Fowler should have let sleeping dogs lie.'
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On May 27 2011 15:09 valheru wrote:
This is just disgusting behavior on that community's part. Absolutely disgusting, morally abhorrent and hypocritical there are times where I just lose any trust in humanity.
It's odd you know I've been to parts of the bible belt (not louisiana but I imagine it is fairly similar) and they are some of the nicest and most generous people but then this shit happens...fuck.
Until they find out you're not Christian.
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is awesome32281 Posts
On May 27 2011 15:10 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:09 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 27 2011 15:09 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
I don't believe his actions are altruistic at all
would the prayer have hurt anyone? no
he should have just let it be as a matter of respecting a community tradition illegal community tradiction* sure it's a crime, but it's a victimless crime if there was a law against scratching your head with both hands at the same time and I saw someone do it, I wouldn't report it or care at all it's illegal, therefore it is wrong, right? oh wait
Where did I say it was wrong? I said it was illegal.
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On May 27 2011 15:02 VIB wrote: On the other hand he gained much more life experience, long term respect, friends and helped improve his whole nation more than 99.9% of the people in this forum ever will.
Majority feel this court precedent is unjust, so I guess he helped improve his nation by reminding them what tyranny they live under from the liberal courts.
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On May 27 2011 15:11 Zzoram wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:09 valheru wrote:
This is just disgusting behavior on that community's part. Absolutely disgusting, morally abhorrent and hypocritical there are times where I just lose any trust in humanity.
It's odd you know I've been to parts of the bible belt (not louisiana but I imagine it is fairly similar) and they are some of the nicest and most generous people but then this shit happens...fuck. Until they find out you're not Christian.
Really? As a Canadian citizen your familiar with the bible belt states and how they treat people?
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To everyone who says the kid should have just pretended to pray or shut up, how many people here that are Christian would want to sit and have an Islamic or Jewish prayer at their graduation? I can't believe these parents wouldn't respect him enough to let him have his own beliefs.
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