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Keep it civil guys.
Alright I am sick of warning people: Trolling, flame baiting, and derailing will result in insta bans.
The same goes for conspiracy theorists and stupidity generally.
Confirmation was as follows
- On-site DNA test which came back as 99% positive.
- photos of face sent to CIA and confirmed with photo analysis
- confirmed by 20 year old wife who live in pakistan.
This thread is specifically dedicated to the details surrounding the raid/his death. |
On May 03 2011 02:16 hifriend wrote:Show nested quote +If you have outrageous liberal opinions about treating Bin Laden with respect, human dignity etc keep them to yourself. Wow, I expected a whole lot more from TL mod's than this. How is the principle of human rights so foreign to many people in this thread? This discussion on torture is one of the most disturbing things I have ever read on these forums.
It's a guy...who declared war...on the entire western civilization.
I'm not celebrating the fact that Osama was killed or anything but he was an enemy combatant and well, killing on sight is typically the name of the game. Sorry if war is that foreign a concept to you...
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On May 03 2011 02:04 Rflcrx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 01:54 uSnAmplified wrote:On May 03 2011 01:51 CurLy[] wrote:
Are people seriously mad that he was killed?
Seriously?
Like for real?
Fuck you guys man... he killed THOUSANDS of people. Rot in pieces osama. Honestly people are so lost in their anti america hate that they will believe anything america does is wrong, you cannot win in a TL thread that has anything to do with politics and america. Obviously anybody who doesn't cheer or anybody who critics is anti-american and should be ignored or better banned. Look at yourself and the way you argue.
Yeah, there are quite a few people like myself who certainly won't miss a figure like osama bin laden and quite frankly are glad he's gone, but some of the celebrations that have been going on are really not tasteful. I don't have any problem with him being killed as an enemy combatant, I do have great difficulty with the idea of actually celebrating death, even that of your enemy. Suggestions that it's unpatriotic to accept but not celebrate his death are really a stretch.  (agreeing with quote for it's sarcasm  )
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On May 03 2011 02:22 JinDesu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 02:16 hifriend wrote:If you have outrageous liberal opinions about treating Bin Laden with respect, human dignity etc keep them to yourself. Wow, I expected a whole lot more from TL mod's than this. How is the principle of human rights so foreign to many people in this thread? This discussion on torture is one of the most disturbing things I have ever read on these forums. Comments on how Osama deserves human rights are inappropriately placed. The kill order was not inhumane, unless you consider death penalties inhuman. He was tried in proxy - why proxy? Well, the damn dude didn't come in for his trial. He planned for the death of thousands of Americans, and succeeded several times. He was not tortured at his death (or at least what is known to us), and his body was not vandalized. Stop saying he needs a fair trial. He would definitely have made a mockery of a fair trial like what Saddamn Hussein did.
Those posts were in direct response to some guy advocating torture for the sake of torture.
Oh and besides, I absolutely consider death penalties inhumane. The mere thought of a government entitling itself with the right to ending the life of it's citizens sends chills down my spine. USA is one of very few nations that have retained the death penalty.
"everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person."
No offense, but I sometimes wonder if the death penalty itself has served to create this vengeful mindset that so often shines through in discussions with SOME americans.
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On May 03 2011 02:27 hmunkey wrote:
Someday I hope we never have a reason to celebrate the death of another human. Let's be happy he can never kill another person, but let's not celebrate his death. Hate is toxic.
I hated Osama but was quite honestly shocked that people in this part of the world could celebrate someone's death.
And seeing as he was shot in the head he was probably unarmed (or disarmed) and just executed. Not saying it's certain but likely, since they wouldn't aim for the head in a firefight.
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Finally some closure.
About Bin Laden being killed is probably because he and his goons tried to fight back.
I would understand if it was a direct kill order though, no reason to incite more terror by having him in custody somewhere and displaying him on tv, human rights or not. Even though no politician would ever admit that, it would still make the most sense to make that decision. No doubt he deserved whatever led to his death.
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On May 03 2011 02:20 BlackFlag wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 02:09 Bibdy wrote:On May 03 2011 02:00 uSnAmplified wrote:On May 03 2011 01:58 Bibdy wrote:On May 03 2011 01:54 uSnAmplified wrote:On May 03 2011 01:51 CurLy[] wrote:
Are people seriously mad that he was killed?
Seriously?
Like for real?
Fuck you guys man... he killed THOUSANDS of people. Rot in pieces osama. Honestly people are so lost in their anti america hate that they will believe anything america does is wrong, you cannot win in a TL thread that has anything to do with politics and america. You can't win a thread, nor can you win at politics without bludgeoning the opposing viewpoint to death. Which is, incidentally, how matters were generally dealt with in the last 5,000 years of human history and even to this day in some parts of the world. The fact that we can doubt, debate, argue, accuse, say our piece and generally be a bunch of assholes to one another without resorting to violence means we've come a long way. I didn't literally mean "win" a thread, the point is you reading through the posts so many people have unrealistic points of view its not worth arguing it. Absolutely. That some people are quicker to claim a conspiracy, rather than join in the closure and excitement everyone is feeling after the first piece of genuinely good news any administration has announced since the fall of the Berlin wall is quite sad, but that's their choice. The way I see it, Obama took a huge gamble. It could have been a political disaster if it turned out the intel was wrong. If Bin Laden was there, but wasn't killed, he could gloat once more. If they announced his death without near 100% certainty, we'd already be seeing videos of the guy announcing his continued existence. Not only is the world rid of a mass murderer, its greatly weakened the guy's hand-built network. Apparently nobody in Al Qaeda makes a pact with a cause - they made a personal pact with Osama. With him out of the picture, where does that leave the rest of Al Qaeda? The war is far from over, but the side of Peace just won a great battle. If someone prefers to wallow in continued misery and doubt after the fact, just let them. are you for real?! I'm not some anti-american ass, but you call the american mitlitary, the side of peace? are you for fuckin real? two wars, with no reason, where millions died. the terrorists coudn't even do this in the next 10 years.
Case in point. This guy right here would prefer to argue over semantics of the word peace, strawman me with something I didn't say, and pretend like Osama being dead isn't a good thing for world peace.
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On May 03 2011 02:30 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 02:25 BlackFlag wrote:On May 03 2011 02:22 thebigdonkey wrote:On May 03 2011 02:20 BlackFlag wrote:On May 03 2011 02:09 Bibdy wrote:On May 03 2011 02:00 uSnAmplified wrote:On May 03 2011 01:58 Bibdy wrote:On May 03 2011 01:54 uSnAmplified wrote:On May 03 2011 01:51 CurLy[] wrote:
Are people seriously mad that he was killed?
Seriously?
Like for real?
Fuck you guys man... he killed THOUSANDS of people. Rot in pieces osama. Honestly people are so lost in their anti america hate that they will believe anything america does is wrong, you cannot win in a TL thread that has anything to do with politics and america. You can't win a thread, nor can you win at politics without bludgeoning the opposing viewpoint to death. Which is, incidentally, how matters were generally dealt with in the last 5,000 years of human history and even to this day in some parts of the world. The fact that we can doubt, debate, argue, accuse, say our piece and generally be a bunch of assholes to one another without resorting to violence means we've come a long way. I didn't literally mean "win" a thread, the point is you reading through the posts so many people have unrealistic points of view its not worth arguing it. Absolutely. That some people are quicker to claim a conspiracy, rather than join in the closure and excitement everyone is feeling after the first piece of genuinely good news any administration has announced since the fall of the Berlin wall is quite sad, but that's their choice. The way I see it, Obama took a huge gamble. It could have been a political disaster if it turned out the intel was wrong. If Bin Laden was there, but wasn't killed, he could gloat once more. If they announced his death without near 100% certainty, we'd already be seeing videos of the guy announcing his continued existence. Not only is the world rid of a mass murderer, its greatly weakened the guy's hand-built network. Apparently nobody in Al Qaeda makes a pact with a cause - they made a personal pact with Osama. With him out of the picture, where does that leave the rest of Al Qaeda? The war is far from over, but the side of Peace just won a great battle. If someone prefers to wallow in continued misery and doubt after the fact, just let them. are you for real?! I'm not some anti-american ass, but you call the american mitlitary, the side of peace? are you for fuckin real? two wars, with no reason, where millions died. the terrorists coudn't even do this in the next 10 years. Umm millions? I think that might be a bit of an exaggeration. go look it up. No, you look it up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001–present)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_WarAt absolute most you could push it to like 1million. And that's really, really, really pushing it. "Millions" is an extreme exaggeration.
Really wish you'd read it through youknow, the most legit numbers are those that number at around 800 000. Anything bellow 100 000 would make Russia, Georgia, Tzhadjestan and 6 other "conflict zones" rank higher up in civilian deaths than the whole Iraqi war. Just use common knowledge, it numbers at around 700 000 at the very LEAST. Go read up on it if you want, I could look up the source article from one of the worlds most respected historical statisticians (he fixed the numbers on alot of conflicts, including WW2, teaches at Cambridge last time I read something about him)
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On May 03 2011 02:30 uSnAmplified wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 02:20 Rflcrx wrote:On May 03 2011 02:16 uSnAmplified wrote:On May 03 2011 02:04 Rflcrx wrote:On May 03 2011 01:54 uSnAmplified wrote:On May 03 2011 01:51 CurLy[] wrote:
Are people seriously mad that he was killed?
Seriously?
Like for real?
Fuck you guys man... he killed THOUSANDS of people. Rot in pieces osama. Honestly people are so lost in their anti america hate that they will believe anything america does is wrong, you cannot win in a TL thread that has anything to do with politics and america. Obviously anybody who doesn't cheer or anybody who critics is anti-american and should be ignored or better banned. Look at yourself and the way you argue. Its funny because this is exactly what i was talking about, you take a neutral point of view and do a complete flip on me saying that everyone who disagrees with me should be banned. You completely blew a general statement completely out of proportion for the sake of being augmentative. I never said the people who disagreed with me were wrong, just that they were stubborn and arguing over it is ridiculous, i will never be able to convince someone who dislikes america that they are wrong over the internet, im not going to sit here and argue with a brick wall. This thread was about a terrorist leader being killed, now it is full of everything from conspiracy theorists to people who think a mass murder was innocent and should not have been killed, if you honestly think the internet is a place for sane political arguments you are dead wrong Sadly you didn't understand what I wrote, but you did understand that I blew it out of proportion. You think people disagree because they dislike america and this is the reason why you can't convince them. Spoiler alert: You can't convince them because you don't have the necessary facts. I hate to break it to you but the point I am making is: Not everybody who disagrees with you dislikes america, it just ain't that simple. And marking everybody who disagrees as stubborn and saying its ridiculous to argue is exactly what I would call ignoring. The problem with this is that you arguing over the fact that i wont argue with someone. if someone honestly believes a criminal of his caliber deserved to live then i doubt my point of view would change it, and to them i would probably come across as ignorant for trying to argue their point of view. At the same time, by choosing not to argue with the people who are set in their opinions, i am being ignorant, and this all spirals back to my original statement that their is no correct way to approach a political thread, because someone is always out to prove you wrong one way or the other.
Very few people (I can't think of any to be honest) have argued that he deserved to live.
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On May 03 2011 02:32 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 02:16 hifriend wrote:If you have outrageous liberal opinions about treating Bin Laden with respect, human dignity etc keep them to yourself. Wow, I expected a whole lot more from TL mod's than this. How is the principle of human rights so foreign to many people in this thread? This discussion on torture is one of the most disturbing things I have ever read on these forums. It's a guy...who declared war...on the entire western civilization. I'm not celebrating the fact that Osama was killed or anything but he was an enemy combatant and well, killing on sight is typically the name of the game. Sorry if war is that foreign a concept to you...
I think what he's saying is, calls to mutilate the body, or that they would rather have him tortured than dead, etc.etc. are the human rights issues. At this point, he's dead, it's over, dragging a carcass through the street doesn't serve any purpose. the wording from the mod that was quoted, should probably be re worded by that moderator as it's easy to interpret it very badly.
EDIT: Nevermind looks like it was already removed from the thread header.
<3
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On May 03 2011 02:34 Rflcrx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 02:30 uSnAmplified wrote:On May 03 2011 02:20 Rflcrx wrote:On May 03 2011 02:16 uSnAmplified wrote:On May 03 2011 02:04 Rflcrx wrote:On May 03 2011 01:54 uSnAmplified wrote:On May 03 2011 01:51 CurLy[] wrote:
Are people seriously mad that he was killed?
Seriously?
Like for real?
Fuck you guys man... he killed THOUSANDS of people. Rot in pieces osama. Honestly people are so lost in their anti america hate that they will believe anything america does is wrong, you cannot win in a TL thread that has anything to do with politics and america. Obviously anybody who doesn't cheer or anybody who critics is anti-american and should be ignored or better banned. Look at yourself and the way you argue. Its funny because this is exactly what i was talking about, you take a neutral point of view and do a complete flip on me saying that everyone who disagrees with me should be banned. You completely blew a general statement completely out of proportion for the sake of being augmentative. I never said the people who disagreed with me were wrong, just that they were stubborn and arguing over it is ridiculous, i will never be able to convince someone who dislikes america that they are wrong over the internet, im not going to sit here and argue with a brick wall. This thread was about a terrorist leader being killed, now it is full of everything from conspiracy theorists to people who think a mass murder was innocent and should not have been killed, if you honestly think the internet is a place for sane political arguments you are dead wrong Sadly you didn't understand what I wrote, but you did understand that I blew it out of proportion. You think people disagree because they dislike america and this is the reason why you can't convince them. Spoiler alert: You can't convince them because you don't have the necessary facts. I hate to break it to you but the point I am making is: Not everybody who disagrees with you dislikes america, it just ain't that simple. And marking everybody who disagrees as stubborn and saying its ridiculous to argue is exactly what I would call ignoring. The problem with this is that you arguing over the fact that i wont argue with someone. if someone honestly believes a criminal of his caliber deserved to live then i doubt my point of view would change it, and to them i would probably come across as ignorant for trying to argue their point of view. At the same time, by choosing not to argue with the people who are set in their opinions, i am being ignorant, and this all spirals back to my original statement that their is no correct way to approach a political thread, because someone is always out to prove you wrong one way or the other. Very few people (I can't think of any to be honest) have argued that he deserved to live. It was an example, not a summary of the entire thread.
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why is everyone assuming the order to kill was there from the beginning? killing is usually a last resort and i'm sure they made risks assessment and decided it wasn't plausible to try and take the building without lethal force. unless i've missed something, it's not like they got everything under control then just decided to execute him on the spot.
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On May 03 2011 02:22 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 02:19 iloveoil wrote:On May 03 2011 02:16 hifriend wrote:If you have outrageous liberal opinions about treating Bin Laden with respect, human dignity etc keep them to yourself. Wow, I expected a whole lot more from TL mod's than this. How is the principle of human rights so foreign to many people in this thread? This discussion on torture is one of the most disturbing things I have ever read on these forums. Agree with this 100% everyone deserves a fair trial regardless of what theyve done When you are at war, there are rarely trials. They "could" have tear gased/flash banged the shit out of the place and tried to capture him, but the risk of further deaths and the extreme danger it would put foreigners in (potential hostages) don't justify to positives of "we're better than that" imo.
a) there are trials (especially for leaders)
b) this operation seemed like it was very controlled with no casualities so it hardly seems impossible that they couldve at least tried to capture him ( not saying that they would succeed)
c) there are ethical problems that arise when the US starts issuing kill orders on people
this discussion is difficult for me to have at this time because we do not have all the facts, but i still believe that everyone deservers a fair trial
also wanna point out that i am in no way a supporter of OBL
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On May 03 2011 02:34 Krehlmar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 02:30 Jimmeh wrote:On May 03 2011 02:25 BlackFlag wrote:On May 03 2011 02:22 thebigdonkey wrote:On May 03 2011 02:20 BlackFlag wrote:On May 03 2011 02:09 Bibdy wrote:On May 03 2011 02:00 uSnAmplified wrote:On May 03 2011 01:58 Bibdy wrote:On May 03 2011 01:54 uSnAmplified wrote:On May 03 2011 01:51 CurLy[] wrote:
Are people seriously mad that he was killed?
Seriously?
Like for real?
Fuck you guys man... he killed THOUSANDS of people. Rot in pieces osama. Honestly people are so lost in their anti america hate that they will believe anything america does is wrong, you cannot win in a TL thread that has anything to do with politics and america. You can't win a thread, nor can you win at politics without bludgeoning the opposing viewpoint to death. Which is, incidentally, how matters were generally dealt with in the last 5,000 years of human history and even to this day in some parts of the world. The fact that we can doubt, debate, argue, accuse, say our piece and generally be a bunch of assholes to one another without resorting to violence means we've come a long way. I didn't literally mean "win" a thread, the point is you reading through the posts so many people have unrealistic points of view its not worth arguing it. Absolutely. That some people are quicker to claim a conspiracy, rather than join in the closure and excitement everyone is feeling after the first piece of genuinely good news any administration has announced since the fall of the Berlin wall is quite sad, but that's their choice. The way I see it, Obama took a huge gamble. It could have been a political disaster if it turned out the intel was wrong. If Bin Laden was there, but wasn't killed, he could gloat once more. If they announced his death without near 100% certainty, we'd already be seeing videos of the guy announcing his continued existence. Not only is the world rid of a mass murderer, its greatly weakened the guy's hand-built network. Apparently nobody in Al Qaeda makes a pact with a cause - they made a personal pact with Osama. With him out of the picture, where does that leave the rest of Al Qaeda? The war is far from over, but the side of Peace just won a great battle. If someone prefers to wallow in continued misery and doubt after the fact, just let them. are you for real?! I'm not some anti-american ass, but you call the american mitlitary, the side of peace? are you for fuckin real? two wars, with no reason, where millions died. the terrorists coudn't even do this in the next 10 years. Umm millions? I think that might be a bit of an exaggeration. go look it up. No, you look it up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001–present)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_WarAt absolute most you could push it to like 1million. And that's really, really, really pushing it. "Millions" is an extreme exaggeration. Really wish you'd read it through youknow, the most legit numbers are those that number at around 800 000. Anything bellow 100 000 would make Russia, Georgia, Tzhadjestan and 6 other "conflict zones" rank higher up in civilian deaths than the whole Iraqi war. Just use common knowledge, it numbers at around 700 000 at the very LEAST. Go read up on it if you want, I could look up the source article from one of the worlds most respected historical statisticians (he fixed the numbers on alot of conflicts, including WW2, teaches at Cambridge last time I read something about him)
I said:
At absolute most you could push it to like 1million.
Your reply:
Just use common knowledge, it numbers at around 700 000 at the very LEAST.
"I really wish that you'd read through it you know."
Million != millions.
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you realize justice is merely society's vengeance?
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On May 03 2011 02:19 iloveoil wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 02:16 hifriend wrote:If you have outrageous liberal opinions about treating Bin Laden with respect, human dignity etc keep them to yourself. Wow, I expected a whole lot more from TL mod's than this. How is the principle of human rights so foreign to many people in this thread? This discussion on torture is one of the most disturbing things I have ever read on these forums. Agree with this 100% everyone deserves a fair trial regardless of what theyve done
He was treated as an enemy combatant, which in reality he was, as I understand it he put up some resistance. Bureacracy hasn't yet reached the point where you have to give a trial to every enemy soldier.
Then again I find it odd that a kill order was given. I see no reason not to capture him if they could. That is, no reason that is not political. But honestly the guy is responsible for the greatest atrocity of the last decade, killing thousands of people in horrific fashion, he admitted to it, boasted about it, and I don't think anyone in this thread can muster up any sympathy for him whatsoever.
That guy saying he wished Bin Laden had been tortured for years though...fuck that guy, wtf. That's a little sick; it's not justice, it's revenge, it'd probably boost the numbers and determination of muslim extremists, and above all there goes your moral high ground.
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On May 03 2011 02:22 mahkan wrote:
I'm just curious on how Osama stayed under the radar for so many years.
Seeing as how mafia bosses like Riina and provenzano managed to stay under the radar in Italy I am not that surprised bin laden managed. he could have been in the mountains or something and it's near impossible to find people there if you don't go in it. But well why does it matter anyway I am glad they finally got the guy.
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On May 03 2011 02:36 mahnini wrote:
why is everyone assuming the order to kill was there from the beginning? killing is usually a last resort and i'm sure they made risks assessment and decided it wasn't plausible to try and take the building without lethal force. unless i've missed something, it's not like they got everything under control then just decided to execute him on the spot.
Well I just heard on cnn it was a kill-order and they had no intention of detaining him.
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On May 03 2011 02:36 mahnini wrote:
why is everyone assuming the order to kill was there from the beginning? killing is usually a last resort and i'm sure they made risks assessment and decided it wasn't plausible to try and take the building without lethal force. unless i've missed something, it's not like they got everything under control then just decided to execute him on the spot.
A high-ranking anonymous source told Reuters.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On May 03 2011 02:36 mahnini wrote:
why is everyone assuming the order to kill was there from the beginning? killing is usually a last resort and i'm sure they made risks assessment and decided it wasn't plausible to try and take the building without lethal force. unless i've missed something, it's not like they got everything under control then just decided to execute him on the spot.
This is what I am wondering, we will never truly know the real situation(Unless the CIA hands us the report really) of what went down, I mean I assume it is not like they captured him and then decided to execute him for the hell of it because he didn't deserve to live.
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On May 03 2011 02:25 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 02:23 Rflcrx wrote:On May 03 2011 02:20 Kennigit wrote:
I reworded the warning. yeah, though I think you meant osama and not obama. And it is still disappointing. Did i type Obama again? fml. People seem to think America is the world police and that they need to smack hands and teach people lessons...they aren't. It's a war. You kill leaders in war. Also im not modding this thread anymore because i'm way too mad and super biased.
Pardon me if i am mistaken, but wasnt both Iraq and Afghanistan operation labeled "police operations" rather than wars? So that captivities are denied Geneva convention rights-ie. not treated as enemy soldiers but rather hostile fighters. At least thats what i recall from early days of said oparations, maybe the retoric has changed since then.
Ps. I am not saying Osama should be spared or even attempted to be taken alive.
Ps2.I feel much better after You reworded the warning, previous version was kinda disturbing, thank You.
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EPT
