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em 20 weeks is pro life in america? haha, in whole europe we dont have more then 15 weeks i think, and europe is not called pro life by any means .. so wtf.
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On April 28 2011 22:19 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 21:54 SacredSoul wrote:
My rant is over, but why do so many people want kids like me dead? Well that is just great. Even if we were to accept your way of looking at things (killing babies etc), you do understand that only people who could legally want you "dead" would be your own parents, right? We on TL have no say in that, nor do the people who pass laws, nor does ANYBODY else. So unless your own parents want to "kill" you, you won't "die" during pregnancy. You say you're okay with abortion after rape, why is that? Rape is essentially sex that functions much in the same way "regular" sex does, and leaves the woman pregnant in the same way. The key difference is of course that she didn't WANT to have sex and she doesn't WANT the baby that was a product of it (even though that same baby might make it in life just as well as any). So in that case you're fine with abortion because the woman doesn't want the child, but if she happens to not want it for any other reason at all, THEN it's murder and killing babies? Physical rape isn't the only way (and probably not the worst way either) a woman can be forced or cheated into a pregnancy. There are millions of other scenarios, many are fairly common in some cultures and very difficult to identify in others. But your underlying point seems to be that murder is okay in some cases and wrong in the others.
You've greatly oversimplified why most women don't want a child that comes from a rape. It's almost offensive how simplistic you've implied it to be.
"Rape is essentially sex that functions much in the same way "regular" sex does, and leaves the woman pregnant in the same way."
Uh...what?
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On April 28 2011 22:43 mmm wrote:
there are good reasons for an abortion past the 20th week (eg health issues to fetus and mother).
by denying that the goverment doesnt fullfill their responsability towards their citicens IMO.
Those issues are generally special cases not covered by laws like this
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On April 28 2011 22:37 PolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 22:29 Ghostcom wrote:On April 28 2011 22:19 PolSC2 wrote:On April 28 2011 21:56 Ghostcom wrote:On April 28 2011 21:03 -Archangel- wrote:On April 28 2011 20:42 Ghostcom wrote:On April 28 2011 20:04 -Archangel- wrote:
12 week fetus is already a really small baby, 20 weeks is pure murder. Statements like these are so detrimental to any worthwhile debate >_> In the end it all comes down to how you define life - is it when sperm meets egg? is it self-sustainability? is it awareness - and what degree of awareness? And 20 weeks seems like an odd time, but if I'm to guess it's because the earliest a baby can survive being born is 15 weeks premature, thus at 20 weeks it still can't survive AND by giving time until week 20 you can actually test for Downs syndrome which is done @ week 16. As a father I felt the need to say this because it is the truth. Even in europe the 3 month limit of being able to preform an abortion is probably too high, but 20 weeks that, I will say it again, is murder. I know how my little girl looked at 20 weeks and nobody can tell me she is not a person or alive. No law can tell me that. Laws are artificial constructions of men, this is nature that is above any human law. It's not the truth - it's your perception which isn't based on anything objective, but "merely" your feelings as a dad. The only reason WHY you even knew how your daughter looked at week 20 in the first place was because you were getting an ultrasound to test wheter or not there were any developmental defects which would make life impossible meaning your wife would've had to abort or give birth to a dead baby. You are being a total hypocrit so take your "I'm telling the truth" BS and shut up or bring some valid arguments. I know I'm VERY blunt, but you do not hold any moral highground in this, stop trying to make it seem like that. And congratulations with your daughter, kids can really be a blessing, but don't try and make your subjective feelings a universal standard. Exactly where the limit should be placed is very hard to decide and tbh I don't think there is any 100% correct answer. I DO however support the option of being able to abort a child with trisomy 21 and thus I also support abortion @ week 16-20 as that is the earliest you can with certainty say wheter or not the mutation is present without an unacceptable risk to the mother or fetus. No side is the "truth". Everything in this subject is based on people's perceptions on life. Where do people get these perceptions? Through their experiences and feelings that happens throughout their lives. Without these experiences and feelings, we would all be drones heading to the mineral line. Think about why you argue for one side, then think about why another person argues for the other. Neither have a complete truth to their arguments, it's all based on opinions, ethics, morals, perceptions...all which are subject to change from person to person. With that said... Being a new father, I can only hope for a complete ban on abortions. This is a good step forward in that direction. Before being married, I never gave this issue one thought. But after having my daughter, it makes me sick that people want to kill living and growing babies because they are too selfish. Your entire post failed when you said that ethics aren't universal; that is the entire point of ethics - the search for the universal truth! And abortion isn't about killing living and growing babies - it's not babies! Being a medical doctor it makes me sick that people like you think you hold any sort of moral highground. And it makes me even sicker that you think selfishness is the only reason for an abortion. That's your opinion. In my opinion, they are babies. I am sorry that I make you sick. I also didn't mean to imply that selfishness is the only reason why people choose to abort a pregnancy.
The only reason it makes me sick is because you want your opinions to be the universal standard, you are obviously entitled to having your own! My opinions are founded on ethical arguments which you could obviously argue against, but at least they are coherrent. Anyone who uses the argument that it is a baby and thus it shouldn't be aborted let me ask you: Did your wife get an ultrasound or any bloodwork done when she was pregnant with your kid? Assuming the answer is yes, WHY?!
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
On April 28 2011 22:23 scouting overlord wrote:
Thanks for that moving story about Serbian rapists JesusOurSaviour. Your insight fills us all.
Whether or not you are sarcastic, thank you for reading and being mannered : )
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On April 28 2011 22:29 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 22:19 PolSC2 wrote:On April 28 2011 21:56 Ghostcom wrote:On April 28 2011 21:03 -Archangel- wrote:On April 28 2011 20:42 Ghostcom wrote:On April 28 2011 20:04 -Archangel- wrote:
12 week fetus is already a really small baby, 20 weeks is pure murder. Statements like these are so detrimental to any worthwhile debate >_> In the end it all comes down to how you define life - is it when sperm meets egg? is it self-sustainability? is it awareness - and what degree of awareness? And 20 weeks seems like an odd time, but if I'm to guess it's because the earliest a baby can survive being born is 15 weeks premature, thus at 20 weeks it still can't survive AND by giving time until week 20 you can actually test for Downs syndrome which is done @ week 16. As a father I felt the need to say this because it is the truth. Even in europe the 3 month limit of being able to preform an abortion is probably too high, but 20 weeks that, I will say it again, is murder. I know how my little girl looked at 20 weeks and nobody can tell me she is not a person or alive. No law can tell me that. Laws are artificial constructions of men, this is nature that is above any human law. It's not the truth - it's your perception which isn't based on anything objective, but "merely" your feelings as a dad. The only reason WHY you even knew how your daughter looked at week 20 in the first place was because you were getting an ultrasound to test wheter or not there were any developmental defects which would make life impossible meaning your wife would've had to abort or give birth to a dead baby. You are being a total hypocrit so take your "I'm telling the truth" BS and shut up or bring some valid arguments. I know I'm VERY blunt, but you do not hold any moral highground in this, stop trying to make it seem like that. And congratulations with your daughter, kids can really be a blessing, but don't try and make your subjective feelings a universal standard. Exactly where the limit should be placed is very hard to decide and tbh I don't think there is any 100% correct answer. I DO however support the option of being able to abort a child with trisomy 21 and thus I also support abortion @ week 16-20 as that is the earliest you can with certainty say wheter or not the mutation is present without an unacceptable risk to the mother or fetus. No side is the "truth". Everything in this subject is based on people's perceptions on life. Where do people get these perceptions? Through their experiences and feelings that happens throughout their lives. Without these experiences and feelings, we would all be drones heading to the mineral line. Think about why you argue for one side, then think about why another person argues for the other. Neither have a complete truth to their arguments, it's all based on opinions, ethics, morals, perceptions...all which are subject to change from person to person. With that said... Being a new father, I can only hope for a complete ban on abortions. This is a good step forward in that direction. Before being married, I never gave this issue one thought. But after having my daughter, it makes me sick that people want to kill living and growing babies because they are too selfish. Your entire post failed when you said that ethics aren't universal; that is the entire point of ethics - the search for the universal truth! And abortion isn't about killing living and growing babies - it's not babies! Being a medical doctor it makes me sick that people like you think you hold any sort of moral highground. And it makes me even sicker that you think selfishness is the only reason for an abortion.
Well, the problem is, is that different people can subscribe to different ethical frameworks, which are nevertheless completely valid, to the best of our understanding.
My personally opinion on abortion, is that while its not "nice" and in a perfect world, it would not be necessary, legal abortion is a net public good (within limits).
I say within limits, because gender selection, taken to the extremes of China and India, is very, very bad.
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20 weeks is the limit when a pregnanci stops beeing an abortion and the reason for that is the 24weeks is the lowest age that a baby prematurly born has a acceptable chance of survival sure some make it with even less weeks but that is excepcional and the survival rate is very very low That limit is set by the las because any later is not an abortion in medicin
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On April 28 2011 22:47 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 22:37 PolSC2 wrote:On April 28 2011 22:29 Ghostcom wrote:On April 28 2011 22:19 PolSC2 wrote:On April 28 2011 21:56 Ghostcom wrote:On April 28 2011 21:03 -Archangel- wrote:On April 28 2011 20:42 Ghostcom wrote:On April 28 2011 20:04 -Archangel- wrote:
12 week fetus is already a really small baby, 20 weeks is pure murder. Statements like these are so detrimental to any worthwhile debate >_> In the end it all comes down to how you define life - is it when sperm meets egg? is it self-sustainability? is it awareness - and what degree of awareness? And 20 weeks seems like an odd time, but if I'm to guess it's because the earliest a baby can survive being born is 15 weeks premature, thus at 20 weeks it still can't survive AND by giving time until week 20 you can actually test for Downs syndrome which is done @ week 16. As a father I felt the need to say this because it is the truth. Even in europe the 3 month limit of being able to preform an abortion is probably too high, but 20 weeks that, I will say it again, is murder. I know how my little girl looked at 20 weeks and nobody can tell me she is not a person or alive. No law can tell me that. Laws are artificial constructions of men, this is nature that is above any human law. It's not the truth - it's your perception which isn't based on anything objective, but "merely" your feelings as a dad. The only reason WHY you even knew how your daughter looked at week 20 in the first place was because you were getting an ultrasound to test wheter or not there were any developmental defects which would make life impossible meaning your wife would've had to abort or give birth to a dead baby. You are being a total hypocrit so take your "I'm telling the truth" BS and shut up or bring some valid arguments. I know I'm VERY blunt, but you do not hold any moral highground in this, stop trying to make it seem like that. And congratulations with your daughter, kids can really be a blessing, but don't try and make your subjective feelings a universal standard. Exactly where the limit should be placed is very hard to decide and tbh I don't think there is any 100% correct answer. I DO however support the option of being able to abort a child with trisomy 21 and thus I also support abortion @ week 16-20 as that is the earliest you can with certainty say wheter or not the mutation is present without an unacceptable risk to the mother or fetus. No side is the "truth". Everything in this subject is based on people's perceptions on life. Where do people get these perceptions? Through their experiences and feelings that happens throughout their lives. Without these experiences and feelings, we would all be drones heading to the mineral line. Think about why you argue for one side, then think about why another person argues for the other. Neither have a complete truth to their arguments, it's all based on opinions, ethics, morals, perceptions...all which are subject to change from person to person. With that said... Being a new father, I can only hope for a complete ban on abortions. This is a good step forward in that direction. Before being married, I never gave this issue one thought. But after having my daughter, it makes me sick that people want to kill living and growing babies because they are too selfish. Your entire post failed when you said that ethics aren't universal; that is the entire point of ethics - the search for the universal truth! And abortion isn't about killing living and growing babies - it's not babies! Being a medical doctor it makes me sick that people like you think you hold any sort of moral highground. And it makes me even sicker that you think selfishness is the only reason for an abortion. That's your opinion. In my opinion, they are babies. I am sorry that I make you sick. I also didn't mean to imply that selfishness is the only reason why people choose to abort a pregnancy. The only reason it makes me sick is because you want your opinions to be the universal standard, you are obviously entitled to having your own! My opinions are founded on ethical arguments which you could obviously argue against, but at least they are coherrent. Anyone who uses the argument that it is a baby and thus it shouldn't be aborted let me ask you: Did your wife get an ultrasound or any bloodwork done when she was pregnant with your kid? Assuming the answer is yes, WHY?!
Well with modern medicine there are things such as pre birth surgery.
http://www.nih.gov/researchmatters/february2011/02142011spinabifida.htm
Hell you said you were a doctor, I learned this shit from TV. Scrubs!!!!!
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On April 28 2011 22:29 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 22:19 PolSC2 wrote:On April 28 2011 21:56 Ghostcom wrote:On April 28 2011 21:03 -Archangel- wrote:On April 28 2011 20:42 Ghostcom wrote:On April 28 2011 20:04 -Archangel- wrote:
12 week fetus is already a really small baby, 20 weeks is pure murder. Statements like these are so detrimental to any worthwhile debate >_> In the end it all comes down to how you define life - is it when sperm meets egg? is it self-sustainability? is it awareness - and what degree of awareness? And 20 weeks seems like an odd time, but if I'm to guess it's because the earliest a baby can survive being born is 15 weeks premature, thus at 20 weeks it still can't survive AND by giving time until week 20 you can actually test for Downs syndrome which is done @ week 16. As a father I felt the need to say this because it is the truth. Even in europe the 3 month limit of being able to preform an abortion is probably too high, but 20 weeks that, I will say it again, is murder. I know how my little girl looked at 20 weeks and nobody can tell me she is not a person or alive. No law can tell me that. Laws are artificial constructions of men, this is nature that is above any human law. It's not the truth - it's your perception which isn't based on anything objective, but "merely" your feelings as a dad. The only reason WHY you even knew how your daughter looked at week 20 in the first place was because you were getting an ultrasound to test wheter or not there were any developmental defects which would make life impossible meaning your wife would've had to abort or give birth to a dead baby. You are being a total hypocrit so take your "I'm telling the truth" BS and shut up or bring some valid arguments. I know I'm VERY blunt, but you do not hold any moral highground in this, stop trying to make it seem like that. And congratulations with your daughter, kids can really be a blessing, but don't try and make your subjective feelings a universal standard. Exactly where the limit should be placed is very hard to decide and tbh I don't think there is any 100% correct answer. I DO however support the option of being able to abort a child with trisomy 21 and thus I also support abortion @ week 16-20 as that is the earliest you can with certainty say wheter or not the mutation is present without an unacceptable risk to the mother or fetus. No side is the "truth". Everything in this subject is based on people's perceptions on life. Where do people get these perceptions? Through their experiences and feelings that happens throughout their lives. Without these experiences and feelings, we would all be drones heading to the mineral line. Think about why you argue for one side, then think about why another person argues for the other. Neither have a complete truth to their arguments, it's all based on opinions, ethics, morals, perceptions...all which are subject to change from person to person. With that said... Being a new father, I can only hope for a complete ban on abortions. This is a good step forward in that direction. Before being married, I never gave this issue one thought. But after having my daughter, it makes me sick that people want to kill living and growing babies because they are too selfish. Your entire post failed when you said that ethics aren't universal; that is the entire point of ethics - the search for the universal truth! And abortion isn't about killing living and growing babies - it's not babies! Being a medical doctor it makes me sick that people like you think you hold any sort of moral highground. And it makes me even sicker that you think selfishness is the only reason for an abortion. You missed his point. There is no such thing as "the search for the universal truth". Because there is no universal truth. The truth is different for each individual. Even worse, it's different for each culture. Meaning that no matter how sure of the truth you are. If you were born somewhere else, at a different time, having a different education. Chances are, your ethic opinions would be completely different. Your opinion is based on your personal experience.
Morals are an illusion. It doesn't exist. People believe in morals for the same reason others believe in god. It gives you a confortable warm feeling inside to think there's this universal truth we can all agree on. But in reality it's not there.
Basing legislation on illusions is bound to cause problems.
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On April 28 2011 22:43 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 22:27 eLiE wrote:On April 28 2011 22:19 Talin wrote:On April 28 2011 21:54 SacredSoul wrote:
My rant is over, but why do so many people want kids like me dead? Well that is just great. Even if we were to accept your way of looking at things (killing babies etc), you do understand that only people who could legally want you "dead" would be your own parents, right? We on TL have no say in that, nor do the people who pass laws, nor does ANYBODY else. So unless your own parents want to "kill" you, you won't "die" during pregnancy. You say you're okay with abortion after rape, why is that? Rape is essentially sex that functions much in the same way "regular" sex does, and leaves the woman pregnant in the same way. The key difference is of course that she didn't WANT to have sex and she doesn't WANT the baby that was a product of it (even though that same baby might make it in life just as well as any). So in that case you're fine with abortion because the woman doesn't want it, but if she happens to not want it for any other reason at all, THEN it's murder and killing babies? Physical rape isn't the only way (and probably not the worst way either) a woman can be forced or cheated into a pregnancy. There are millions of other scenarios, many are fairly common in some cultures and very difficult to identify in others. But your underlying point seems to be that murder is okay in some cases and wrong in the others. Well, I think that the fact that she didn't consent to the act is the problem, not that that it's physically the same. And that is also considering rape within marriages and other relationships. I would understand the decision to have an abortion in that situation. You mean you would understand her decision to murder a child? Because according to you, that's what abortion is. If we're talking about murder though, I can't see how that situation would justify killing a person - it's not self defense, the "person" in question is a product of the situation but didn't cause it, and is completely defenseless. But still you understand it. I mean, *I* understand it, but I only understand it because I don't see it as a murder in the first place. How can YOU understand it and treat it as a murder at the same time?
I'm not against murder, one can't be so set in stone on that for obvious reasons. However, I do my best to balance fairly the decisions based on pros and cons. In this situation, the women has no control over the issue, and carrying this baby can be a traumatic experience, and not through any fault of her own. For these reasons, I think the woman has a choice in the issue, though it should still be a well informed one, as it's still a matter of life or death. I would also be okay with abortion in the case that the mother will die, because choosing who lives or dies becomes a more balanced (though difficult) choice. I didn't word that last sentence right, and I'm feel it will get picked on, but I hope people can understand the meaning and not the literal interpretation.
In the more usual case, anyone having sex consensually needs to understand that even using contraception, there is a possibility of becoming pregnant. Understanding this, I do not think the negative effects of pregnancy and support of a child warrant an abortion. Education on sex and pregnancy should be better though. Solving the problem upstream is always the better solution.
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On April 28 2011 22:44 phil.ipp wrote:
em 20 weeks is pro life in america? haha, in whole europe we dont have more then 15 weeks i think, and europe is not called pro life by any means .. so wtf.
thats not correct in germany for example you can abort at any given date, IF the mothers life is at risk.
in Austria its 12-16 weeks p.m. without given reason
and later if there is an medical indication( health issue)
so dont write crap without looking at least at wikipedia first
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On April 28 2011 22:47 feanor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 22:43 mmm wrote:
there are good reasons for an abortion past the 20th week (eg health issues to fetus and mother).
by denying that the goverment doesnt fullfill their responsability towards their citicens IMO.
Those issues are generally special cases not covered by laws like this
if you ban it its illegal (none askes for a reason)
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On April 28 2011 22:47 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 22:37 PolSC2 wrote:On April 28 2011 22:29 Ghostcom wrote:On April 28 2011 22:19 PolSC2 wrote:On April 28 2011 21:56 Ghostcom wrote:On April 28 2011 21:03 -Archangel- wrote:On April 28 2011 20:42 Ghostcom wrote:On April 28 2011 20:04 -Archangel- wrote:
12 week fetus is already a really small baby, 20 weeks is pure murder. Statements like these are so detrimental to any worthwhile debate >_> In the end it all comes down to how you define life - is it when sperm meets egg? is it self-sustainability? is it awareness - and what degree of awareness? And 20 weeks seems like an odd time, but if I'm to guess it's because the earliest a baby can survive being born is 15 weeks premature, thus at 20 weeks it still can't survive AND by giving time until week 20 you can actually test for Downs syndrome which is done @ week 16. As a father I felt the need to say this because it is the truth. Even in europe the 3 month limit of being able to preform an abortion is probably too high, but 20 weeks that, I will say it again, is murder. I know how my little girl looked at 20 weeks and nobody can tell me she is not a person or alive. No law can tell me that. Laws are artificial constructions of men, this is nature that is above any human law. It's not the truth - it's your perception which isn't based on anything objective, but "merely" your feelings as a dad. The only reason WHY you even knew how your daughter looked at week 20 in the first place was because you were getting an ultrasound to test wheter or not there were any developmental defects which would make life impossible meaning your wife would've had to abort or give birth to a dead baby. You are being a total hypocrit so take your "I'm telling the truth" BS and shut up or bring some valid arguments. I know I'm VERY blunt, but you do not hold any moral highground in this, stop trying to make it seem like that. And congratulations with your daughter, kids can really be a blessing, but don't try and make your subjective feelings a universal standard. Exactly where the limit should be placed is very hard to decide and tbh I don't think there is any 100% correct answer. I DO however support the option of being able to abort a child with trisomy 21 and thus I also support abortion @ week 16-20 as that is the earliest you can with certainty say wheter or not the mutation is present without an unacceptable risk to the mother or fetus. No side is the "truth". Everything in this subject is based on people's perceptions on life. Where do people get these perceptions? Through their experiences and feelings that happens throughout their lives. Without these experiences and feelings, we would all be drones heading to the mineral line. Think about why you argue for one side, then think about why another person argues for the other. Neither have a complete truth to their arguments, it's all based on opinions, ethics, morals, perceptions...all which are subject to change from person to person. With that said... Being a new father, I can only hope for a complete ban on abortions. This is a good step forward in that direction. Before being married, I never gave this issue one thought. But after having my daughter, it makes me sick that people want to kill living and growing babies because they are too selfish. Your entire post failed when you said that ethics aren't universal; that is the entire point of ethics - the search for the universal truth! And abortion isn't about killing living and growing babies - it's not babies! Being a medical doctor it makes me sick that people like you think you hold any sort of moral highground. And it makes me even sicker that you think selfishness is the only reason for an abortion. That's your opinion. In my opinion, they are babies. I am sorry that I make you sick. I also didn't mean to imply that selfishness is the only reason why people choose to abort a pregnancy. The only reason it makes me sick is because you want your opinions to be the universal standard, you are obviously entitled to having your own! My opinions are founded on ethical arguments which you could obviously argue against, but at least they are coherrent. Anyone who uses the argument that it is a baby and thus it shouldn't be aborted let me ask you: Did your wife get an ultrasound or any bloodwork done when she was pregnant with your kid? Assuming the answer is yes, WHY?!
I see where you are coming from. By me stating I want abortion to be illegal, it is like me wanting my opinions to be the law, which everyone must adhere to. I guess you are right, and I never thought about it like that. I think the reason why this subject is so difficult is because it's basically a merging of church and state. Abortion is heavily frowned upon in the religious community, but from a science and state/fed law standpoint, it's understandable and justifiable, to a certain extent.
To answer your questions... Yes, we had ultrasounds and bloodwork done. Why? The doctors said it was to test for a healthy baby and to make sure everything was going well.
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I think the only Western country left that does not have a legal restriction on the gestation time beyond which abortion can happen is...
CANADA!
But seriously, no doctor in his right mind would abort past 20 weeks unless there was risk of imminent death to the woman or something. This is a non-issue.
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On April 28 2011 22:46 lectR wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 22:19 Talin wrote:On April 28 2011 21:54 SacredSoul wrote:
My rant is over, but why do so many people want kids like me dead? Well that is just great. Even if we were to accept your way of looking at things (killing babies etc), you do understand that only people who could legally want you "dead" would be your own parents, right? We on TL have no say in that, nor do the people who pass laws, nor does ANYBODY else. So unless your own parents want to "kill" you, you won't "die" during pregnancy. You say you're okay with abortion after rape, why is that? Rape is essentially sex that functions much in the same way "regular" sex does, and leaves the woman pregnant in the same way. The key difference is of course that she didn't WANT to have sex and she doesn't WANT the baby that was a product of it (even though that same baby might make it in life just as well as any). So in that case you're fine with abortion because the woman doesn't want the child, but if she happens to not want it for any other reason at all, THEN it's murder and killing babies? Physical rape isn't the only way (and probably not the worst way either) a woman can be forced or cheated into a pregnancy. There are millions of other scenarios, many are fairly common in some cultures and very difficult to identify in others. But your underlying point seems to be that murder is okay in some cases and wrong in the others. You've greatly oversimplified why most women don't want a child that comes from a rape. It's almost offensive how simplistic you've implied it to be. "Rape is essentially sex that functions much in the same way "regular" sex does, and leaves the woman pregnant in the same way." Uh...what?
You're taking my post out of context. The reply was intended to the person that I replied to, but anyway...
I'm not oversimplifying rape, it's just that others are oversimplifying and discarding OTHER reasons a woman might not want to have a child (and there are many).
The point is that a woman either wants a child or doesn't want it. Whatever her reason for NOT wanting a child are, it shouldn't make a difference for anybody else, the choice what to do with the pregnancy should still be hers.
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Until the baby is off the umbilical cord, and breathing, I see it as a parasite, no I don't children. I do however agree with this law, there are just too many complications that can arise after this point for it to be a safe procedure.
Also offtopic
+ Show Spoiler + For those that think a person has every right to her body why is suicide illegal O.o?
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On April 28 2011 23:01 Daliniues wrote:Also offtopic + Show Spoiler + For those that think a person has every right to her body why is suicide illegal O.o?
It's a silly law that can't be enforced but makes a certain minority happy by having it on the books. Good politics!
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On April 28 2011 22:52 feanor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 22:47 Ghostcom wrote:On April 28 2011 22:37 PolSC2 wrote:On April 28 2011 22:29 Ghostcom wrote:On April 28 2011 22:19 PolSC2 wrote:On April 28 2011 21:56 Ghostcom wrote:On April 28 2011 21:03 -Archangel- wrote:On April 28 2011 20:42 Ghostcom wrote:On April 28 2011 20:04 -Archangel- wrote:
12 week fetus is already a really small baby, 20 weeks is pure murder. Statements like these are so detrimental to any worthwhile debate >_> In the end it all comes down to how you define life - is it when sperm meets egg? is it self-sustainability? is it awareness - and what degree of awareness? And 20 weeks seems like an odd time, but if I'm to guess it's because the earliest a baby can survive being born is 15 weeks premature, thus at 20 weeks it still can't survive AND by giving time until week 20 you can actually test for Downs syndrome which is done @ week 16. As a father I felt the need to say this because it is the truth. Even in europe the 3 month limit of being able to preform an abortion is probably too high, but 20 weeks that, I will say it again, is murder. I know how my little girl looked at 20 weeks and nobody can tell me she is not a person or alive. No law can tell me that. Laws are artificial constructions of men, this is nature that is above any human law. It's not the truth - it's your perception which isn't based on anything objective, but "merely" your feelings as a dad. The only reason WHY you even knew how your daughter looked at week 20 in the first place was because you were getting an ultrasound to test wheter or not there were any developmental defects which would make life impossible meaning your wife would've had to abort or give birth to a dead baby. You are being a total hypocrit so take your "I'm telling the truth" BS and shut up or bring some valid arguments. I know I'm VERY blunt, but you do not hold any moral highground in this, stop trying to make it seem like that. And congratulations with your daughter, kids can really be a blessing, but don't try and make your subjective feelings a universal standard. Exactly where the limit should be placed is very hard to decide and tbh I don't think there is any 100% correct answer. I DO however support the option of being able to abort a child with trisomy 21 and thus I also support abortion @ week 16-20 as that is the earliest you can with certainty say wheter or not the mutation is present without an unacceptable risk to the mother or fetus. No side is the "truth". Everything in this subject is based on people's perceptions on life. Where do people get these perceptions? Through their experiences and feelings that happens throughout their lives. Without these experiences and feelings, we would all be drones heading to the mineral line. Think about why you argue for one side, then think about why another person argues for the other. Neither have a complete truth to their arguments, it's all based on opinions, ethics, morals, perceptions...all which are subject to change from person to person. With that said... Being a new father, I can only hope for a complete ban on abortions. This is a good step forward in that direction. Before being married, I never gave this issue one thought. But after having my daughter, it makes me sick that people want to kill living and growing babies because they are too selfish. Your entire post failed when you said that ethics aren't universal; that is the entire point of ethics - the search for the universal truth! And abortion isn't about killing living and growing babies - it's not babies! Being a medical doctor it makes me sick that people like you think you hold any sort of moral highground. And it makes me even sicker that you think selfishness is the only reason for an abortion. That's your opinion. In my opinion, they are babies. I am sorry that I make you sick. I also didn't mean to imply that selfishness is the only reason why people choose to abort a pregnancy. The only reason it makes me sick is because you want your opinions to be the universal standard, you are obviously entitled to having your own! My opinions are founded on ethical arguments which you could obviously argue against, but at least they are coherrent. Anyone who uses the argument that it is a baby and thus it shouldn't be aborted let me ask you: Did your wife get an ultrasound or any bloodwork done when she was pregnant with your kid? Assuming the answer is yes, WHY?! Well with modern medicine there are things such as pre birth surgery. http://www.nih.gov/researchmatters/february2011/02142011spinabifida.htmHell you said you were a doctor, I learned this shit from TV. Scrubs!!!!!
Aren't you brilliant? Do I really have to walk you through the disorders and which we can do something about and which we can do nothing about? Ultrasound is usually done to determine wheter or not the baby is in risk of having trisomy 21 whilst also checking for other handicaps. Do you think we can surgically remove an extra chromosome 21? How about you go back to scrubs?
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On April 28 2011 22:58 bonifaceviii wrote:
I think the only Western country left that does not have a legal restriction on the gestation time beyond which abortion can happen is...
CANADA!
But seriously, no doctor in his right mind would abort past 20 weeks unless there was risk of imminent death to the woman or something. This is a non-issue.
The part that bugs me, that seems to have been forgotten on the past couple of pages is that the doctor must tell the patient that the fetus can feel even before the first 20 weeks have passed.
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On April 28 2011 23:01 Daliniues wrote: Also offtopic + Show Spoiler + For those that think a person has every right to her body why is suicide illegal O.o?
+ Show Spoiler +
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EPT
