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On April 29 2011 00:05 hifriend wrote:
Unbelievable. How can something this backwards pass in one of the most modern societies in the world? Also I can't believe US media/people actually use the expression "pro-life" lol. Are the opponents anti-life or pro-abortion or how does that work?
Abortion activist are generally referred to a pro choice advocates in mainstream media
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On April 29 2011 00:01 nihlon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 23:51 -Archangel- wrote:On April 28 2011 21:56 Ghostcom wrote:On April 28 2011 21:03 -Archangel- wrote:On April 28 2011 20:42 Ghostcom wrote:On April 28 2011 20:04 -Archangel- wrote:
12 week fetus is already a really small baby, 20 weeks is pure murder. Statements like these are so detrimental to any worthwhile debate >_> In the end it all comes down to how you define life - is it when sperm meets egg? is it self-sustainability? is it awareness - and what degree of awareness? And 20 weeks seems like an odd time, but if I'm to guess it's because the earliest a baby can survive being born is 15 weeks premature, thus at 20 weeks it still can't survive AND by giving time until week 20 you can actually test for Downs syndrome which is done @ week 16. As a father I felt the need to say this because it is the truth. Even in europe the 3 month limit of being able to preform an abortion is probably too high, but 20 weeks that, I will say it again, is murder. I know how my little girl looked at 20 weeks and nobody can tell me she is not a person or alive. No law can tell me that. Laws are artificial constructions of men, this is nature that is above any human law. It's not the truth - it's your perception which isn't based on anything objective, but "merely" your feelings as a dad. The only reason WHY you even knew how your daughter looked at week 20 in the first place was because you were getting an ultrasound to test wheter or not there were any developmental defects which would make life impossible meaning your wife would've had to abort or give birth to a dead baby. You are being a total hypocrit so take your "I'm telling the truth" BS and shut up or bring some valid arguments. I know I'm VERY blunt, but you do not hold any moral highground in this, stop trying to make it seem like that. And congratulations with your daughter, kids can really be a blessing, but don't try and make your subjective feelings a universal standard. Exactly where the limit should be placed is very hard to decide and tbh I don't think there is any 100% correct answer. I DO however support the option of being able to abort a child with trisomy 21 and thus I also support abortion @ week 16-20 as that is the earliest you can with certainty say wheter or not the mutation is present without an unacceptable risk to the mother or fetus. I am sorry, but you are also just stating your opinion and it is no more true then mine. Science does not 100% know when the baby is aware or if there is something called a soul (a religious version or otherwise). But what is without doubt is that it is alive and a seperate being that depends on the mother to grow and survive at that point. It does not give the mother right to kill it as long as it is going to end up healthy and able to lead a normal life. If the mother/father do not want it, the government can take care of it. Instead of wasting money on abortions and developing technology and drugs for that, that money can be spent into government programs that will let abandoned children find new homes as painless as possible or be able to grow up and have similar chance to be a useful part of society. You last part is a bit weird. You honestly think the cost of an abortion is greater to our society than the cost of raising an orphant/adoptie?
He's insulated from ever raising an orphaned child, so it's not his concern  . Clearly if every abortion was instead born, the government will just magic up foster parents for all of them, and they'll have great lives and grow up to be proud anti abortion crusaders.
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On April 28 2011 22:34 Reborn8u wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
The procedure is usually performed during the last trimester of gestation up to the end of the ninth month. The woman's cervix is dilated, and the abortionist grabs the baby's leg with forceps. Then he proceeds to pull the baby into the birth canal. The abortionist then delivers the baby's body, feet first, all but the baby's head. The abortionist inserts a sharp object into the back of the baby's head, removes it, and inserts a vacuum tube through which the brains are sucked out. The head of the baby collapses at this point and allows the aborted baby to be delivered lifelessly.
Come on, you are kidding me?!?! Someone does this? Up to 9 months pregnancy? Where is this, in Afganistan? (this was a rhetoric question)
Ok, this makes me sad. How cold must that doctor be do to this. Wtf?! What are the, Hitler wannabies... 
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On April 29 2011 00:06 feanor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 00:05 hifriend wrote:
Unbelievable. How can something this backwards pass in one of the most modern societies in the world? Also I can't believe US media/people actually use the expression "pro-life" lol. Are the opponents anti-life or pro-abortion or how does that work? Abortion activist are generally referred to a pro choice advocates in mainstream media
Or "Abortionist" like it's some fucking dogma or something. I've heard anti-life as well.
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On April 29 2011 00:03 scouting overlord wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 23:56 HULKAMANIA wrote:On April 28 2011 18:21 scouting overlord wrote:
I'm pointing out that you're all more than likely male with no idea what it's like to bear or raise a child, especially one which has been accidentally or unwillingly conceived or has been diagnosed with a serious illness inutero. A female should be the one allowed to make a decision On April 28 2011 18:32 scouting overlord wrote:
Cry me a river macho man, it's her child in her body and you have no leg to stand on if you've broken up with her in pregnancy, you know the most important time to care for your wife? On April 28 2011 18:37 scouting overlord wrote:Thanks for just being outright misogynist for people to see . Helps illustrate what kind of man cares more for an unconscious cellular mass than a fully developed human being. On April 28 2011 18:53 scouting overlord wrote:Maybe next life you can experience how great it is to be female in this world, with Brave Men FIGHTING FOR THE UNBORN RIGHTS, but for now you'll just have to wait. On April 28 2011 19:07 scouting overlord wrote:You are crazy, just so you know. None of your points are intelligent or relevant to real life. "Anti-life" isn't a position people take. Please return to whatever conservative white male-dominated echo chamber you came from. On April 28 2011 19:10 scouting overlord wrote:
You have never experienced pregnancy. You never will experience pregnancy. No male will, and it's a greater burden on the women, both mentally and physically, than whatever "statistics" and "labor" the court puts on you. It will scar her body and mind for life, not just for when the court dictates your "labor time" On April 28 2011 19:12 scouting overlord wrote:
I'll let this slide as you defend the women's right to abortion at least. But trust me on this, nothing you ever experience is even close to childbirth. It isn't 'only' or 'just' 9 months from the women's point of view, and you should respect that. No one should be forced to go through childbirth unwillingly. On April 28 2011 19:13 scouting overlord wrote:
It's based around pregnancy being a burden wholly put on the woman and her body you fucking mong. On April 28 2011 19:27 scouting overlord wrote:A man does not get pregnant . It's not even close to 50/50. You have no idea what pregnancy does to a person's body and mind. Women don't leave men to spite them out of child support. Taking your child from the biological father isn't something women just do to 'run off with another man'. I suppose I could go on with the quotes, but I think these are sufficient to my point. Throwing your gender around for the purpose of squelching debate is a disingenuous (not to mention tedious) way to argue. It’s also somewhat questionable that your position revolves around men being unable to understand a female perspective, yet you seem to have an exhaustive knowledge of what’s going on in the misogynistic and naïve minds of the males with whom you’re speaking. Personally, I would love to hear your opinion on abortion if it involves something other than gender stereotypes, angry dismissals of opposing viewpoints, and the old you-can’t-possibly-understand-what-it’s-like- for me! assertion that you’re the only individual in the discussion with a leg to stand on. You think pregnancy and abortion is a gender-neutral issue? Do you think pregnancy and abortion is as hard on the male as the female, and that the male's judgement is greater or equal to a female's on this issue? You are a very special person, like many proud Americans. Thanks for picking out all of the gender related arguments from the female perspective by the way, while ignoring the many from the male side
lol, there's no point, man. It's just something we have to ignore at this time.
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As a genetic counselor, I think a few important facts need to be considered:
Many women who have abortions after 20 weeks are in different situations than women who have first trimester abortions. Often, an ultrasound detecting a fatal or severely debilitating anomaly is not detected until the anatomical survey, which is usually not performed until 15-16 weeks. At this point, difficult decisions need to be made. Often, a woman will have an amniocentesis to see, for example, if the baby has trisomy 13/18/21. The woman will also often get second opinions (no matter how obvious the problem is, as there is often some denial). The test results take 7-10 days, second opinions who knows how long, difficult conversations between partners/family, etc and one can easily be pushing 20 weeks. Women who terminate a pregnancy this late are often terminating wanted pregnancies.
Secondly, I haven't gone through all 19 pages yet (I will!), but I have yet to see any conclusive research on when a fetus can feel pain. Additionally, I am almost positive there is no ill-effects on fertility other than the risks associated with any obstetric procedure (like a C-section). This is what happens when people outside the medical field make medical decisions.
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I'm personally strongly opposed to abortion and that has nothing to do with religion. I am my own God  All Jesus, Mohamed, Zeus, Budda and whoever else you call God, can kiss my butt.
20 weeks is a lot of times. AFAIK here the regulation is/was (not sure) 3 months, which is still a lot IMHO. There are however, cases in which the woman doesn't know she's carrying a baby, well pass her 3rd month.
Would rather use preemptive measures, like pills, condoms or the good old "pulling it out the last moment" (which I'm not fan of), rather then take it to need of abortion because of some "good time".
But 20 weeks ... Geez, that's A LOT !!! Well, for me even 1 week old fetus is a child (a living human). I really can not understand humanity sometimes and their funny and awkward rules and laws. Abortion - OK, but Euthanasia surprisingly is not OK.
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On April 29 2011 00:08 eLiE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 00:03 scouting overlord wrote:On April 28 2011 23:56 HULKAMANIA wrote:On April 28 2011 18:21 scouting overlord wrote:
I'm pointing out that you're all more than likely male with no idea what it's like to bear or raise a child, especially one which has been accidentally or unwillingly conceived or has been diagnosed with a serious illness inutero. A female should be the one allowed to make a decision On April 28 2011 18:32 scouting overlord wrote:
Cry me a river macho man, it's her child in her body and you have no leg to stand on if you've broken up with her in pregnancy, you know the most important time to care for your wife? On April 28 2011 18:37 scouting overlord wrote:Thanks for just being outright misogynist for people to see . Helps illustrate what kind of man cares more for an unconscious cellular mass than a fully developed human being. On April 28 2011 18:53 scouting overlord wrote:Maybe next life you can experience how great it is to be female in this world, with Brave Men FIGHTING FOR THE UNBORN RIGHTS, but for now you'll just have to wait. On April 28 2011 19:07 scouting overlord wrote:You are crazy, just so you know. None of your points are intelligent or relevant to real life. "Anti-life" isn't a position people take. Please return to whatever conservative white male-dominated echo chamber you came from. On April 28 2011 19:10 scouting overlord wrote:
You have never experienced pregnancy. You never will experience pregnancy. No male will, and it's a greater burden on the women, both mentally and physically, than whatever "statistics" and "labor" the court puts on you. It will scar her body and mind for life, not just for when the court dictates your "labor time" On April 28 2011 19:12 scouting overlord wrote:
I'll let this slide as you defend the women's right to abortion at least. But trust me on this, nothing you ever experience is even close to childbirth. It isn't 'only' or 'just' 9 months from the women's point of view, and you should respect that. No one should be forced to go through childbirth unwillingly. On April 28 2011 19:13 scouting overlord wrote:
It's based around pregnancy being a burden wholly put on the woman and her body you fucking mong. On April 28 2011 19:27 scouting overlord wrote:A man does not get pregnant . It's not even close to 50/50. You have no idea what pregnancy does to a person's body and mind. Women don't leave men to spite them out of child support. Taking your child from the biological father isn't something women just do to 'run off with another man'. I suppose I could go on with the quotes, but I think these are sufficient to my point. Throwing your gender around for the purpose of squelching debate is a disingenuous (not to mention tedious) way to argue. It’s also somewhat questionable that your position revolves around men being unable to understand a female perspective, yet you seem to have an exhaustive knowledge of what’s going on in the misogynistic and naïve minds of the males with whom you’re speaking. Personally, I would love to hear your opinion on abortion if it involves something other than gender stereotypes, angry dismissals of opposing viewpoints, and the old you-can’t-possibly-understand-what-it’s-like- for me! assertion that you’re the only individual in the discussion with a leg to stand on. You think pregnancy and abortion is a gender-neutral issue? Do you think pregnancy and abortion is as hard on the male as the female, and that the male's judgement is greater or equal to a female's on this issue? You are a very special person, like many proud Americans. Thanks for picking out all of the gender related arguments from the female perspective by the way, while ignoring the many from the male side lol, there's no point, man. It's just something we have to ignore at this time.
No point for a privileged first world male to have an opinion on, I agree -- they'll likely never encounter the grief of an unwanted child in their lifetime .
Edit: Especially one that they can't afford to care for
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On April 29 2011 00:08 scouting overlord wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 00:06 feanor1 wrote:On April 29 2011 00:05 hifriend wrote:
Unbelievable. How can something this backwards pass in one of the most modern societies in the world? Also I can't believe US media/people actually use the expression "pro-life" lol. Are the opponents anti-life or pro-abortion or how does that work? Abortion activist are generally referred to a pro choice advocates in mainstream media Or "Abortionist" like it's some fucking dogma or something. I've heard anti-life as well.
In most mainstream media the camps are described as pro choice and pro life. Other terms are used by both sides like anti life and religious right wing nut, but in general its Pro-Life and Pro-Choice
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On April 29 2011 00:08 scouting overlord wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 00:06 feanor1 wrote:On April 29 2011 00:05 hifriend wrote:
Unbelievable. How can something this backwards pass in one of the most modern societies in the world? Also I can't believe US media/people actually use the expression "pro-life" lol. Are the opponents anti-life or pro-abortion or how does that work? Abortion activist are generally referred to a pro choice advocates in mainstream media Or "Abortionist" like it's some fucking dogma or something. I've heard anti-life as well. One post above you they are being called Hitler wannabes :D
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On April 28 2011 23:56 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 22:08 scouting overlord wrote:On April 28 2011 22:04 vetinari wrote:On April 28 2011 21:45 scouting overlord wrote:On April 28 2011 21:42 Frigo wrote:
Daily 8 hours of hard work for 20+ years to support a kid financially is nothing compared to an 8-hour labour once, yeah right, after all, money grows on trees. And pregnancy is the worst thing to happen to someone. Get a reality check.
Frigo out, the discussion took a sharp turn to the retarded thanks to this oh-so-irreplaceable self-important nice person.
Quoting for posterity. Of course only men can work 8 hours for 20 years . Please ask your mother how labor felt for her, and how much she enjoyed having you grow inside of her constantly. It's a greater pain, physically and mentally (I stress mentally because you can't even imagine it) than you will ever experience in your life. But sure, you can take your toys and leave the discussion if you feel people aren't taking your precious opinions seriously, it's a very mature thing to do. My mother greatly enjoyed her pregnancy, she tells me it was one of the happiest times of her life, knowing that she had life growing inside her, a child that she wanted so much was finally coming. The physical effects of pregnancy, outside of childbirth itself, were inconviniences, but minor, far less inconvenient than her fractured ankle years later. As for child birth itself, it was 10 hours of pain, that would have been far worse were it not for the massive flood of oxytocin in her brain. Are you speaking from the experience of carrying an unwanted child to term? Or just out of your ass? Child birth? No biggie, just give me a huge dose of opiates for 10 hours, no sweat. It's not like the pain and intensity of the experience is so immense that many women die in the procedure in the modern day and age or anything. Just so you know sweety, your mother saying it was a magical experience is the nice way of putting it. Once your wife is pregnant I'm sure you'll have a more balanced view of pregnancy. My wife was pregnant until few weeks ago and yes, it is not as hard as young boys with no experience like you think. Actually the only bad part of it was science interfering and stupid lazy doctor at the time deciding to do a cezarian when it was not needed (according to doctors that looked at the case later). Just stop taking about stuff you got 0 experience in. You just look stupid.
Congratulations, btw. Enjoy your sleep >.>
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On April 29 2011 00:05 hifriend wrote:
Unbelievable. How can something this backwards pass in one of the most modern societies in the world?
Most other "modern societies" already have something like this in place.
Also I can't believe US media/people actually use the expression "pro-life" lol. Are the opponents anti-life or pro-abortion or how does that work?
It's clear to me what side you are on. Pro-life just sounds better, it's a way to put a spin on something. Politics as usual.
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i'm curious to see what the stance on abortion is in 50 years. it'll be quite interesting.
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On April 29 2011 00:07 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 22:34 Reborn8u wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
The procedure is usually performed during the last trimester of gestation up to the end of the ninth month. The woman's cervix is dilated, and the abortionist grabs the baby's leg with forceps. Then he proceeds to pull the baby into the birth canal. The abortionist then delivers the baby's body, feet first, all but the baby's head. The abortionist inserts a sharp object into the back of the baby's head, removes it, and inserts a vacuum tube through which the brains are sucked out. The head of the baby collapses at this point and allows the aborted baby to be delivered lifelessly.
Come on, you are kidding me?!?! Someone does this? Up to 9 months pregnancy? Where is this, in Afganistan? (this was a rhetoric question) Ok, this makes me sad. How cold must that doctor be do to this. Wtf?! What are the, Hitler wannabies...
If it makes you feel any better the unthinking mass of cells is unable to comprehend anything. This is more humane than birthing an unwanted child into this world, just so you know. This is also how miscarriages are treated.
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im against abortion, so i of course think this law is a good thing. any step in this direction is a step in the right direction imo. i mean its a little human being inside, how could it be legal to kill it >.>
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On April 29 2011 00:13 AyeH wrote:
i'm curious to see what the stance on abortion is in 50 years. it'll be quite interesting.
I hope the U.S. outlaws it, it will be great to watch your society as a generation of unwanted children mature .
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On April 29 2011 00:07 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 22:34 Reborn8u wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
The procedure is usually performed during the last trimester of gestation up to the end of the ninth month. The woman's cervix is dilated, and the abortionist grabs the baby's leg with forceps. Then he proceeds to pull the baby into the birth canal. The abortionist then delivers the baby's body, feet first, all but the baby's head. The abortionist inserts a sharp object into the back of the baby's head, removes it, and inserts a vacuum tube through which the brains are sucked out. The head of the baby collapses at this point and allows the aborted baby to be delivered lifelessly.
Come on, you are kidding me?!?! Someone does this? Up to 9 months pregnancy? Where is this, in Afganistan? (this was a rhetoric question) Ok, this makes me sad. How cold must that doctor be do to this. Wtf?! What are the, Hitler wannabies...
Is it so hard to go check for your self:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion#Methods
BTW: "IDX is sometimes called "partial-birth abortion," which has been federally banned in the United States."
Man, dont believe every crap you read on the internet
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On April 28 2011 22:34 Reborn8u wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
The procedure is usually performed during the last trimester of gestation up to the end of the ninth month. The woman's cervix is dilated, and the abortionist grabs the baby's leg with forceps. Then he proceeds to pull the baby into the birth canal. The abortionist then delivers the baby's body, feet first, all but the baby's head. The abortionist inserts a sharp object into the back of the baby's head, removes it, and inserts a vacuum tube through which the brains are sucked out. The head of the baby collapses at this point and allows the aborted baby to be delivered lifelessly.
Horribly misguided, and I think is part of the reason why discourse is so difficult on this issue. First and most importantly, 3rd trimester abortions are RARELY performed, and only available in 2 (3?) states in the US (bc the doctors keep getting shot). There is an intrauterine, intrathoracic injection of KCl or digoxin which instantly stops the heart beat. Then the fetus is delivered as would be in a normal delivery. Now, this may still be gruesome to some of you (hell, almost all surgeries are gruesome to me), but it is not grabbing the fetus with forceps while vacuuming out its brain like a lot of the propaganda will have you believe.
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On April 29 2011 00:16 FrankWalls wrote:
im against abortion, so i of course think this law is a good thing. any step in this direction is a step in the right direction imo. i mean its a little human being inside, how could it be legal to kill it >.>
maybe because the mother was raped by a homeless guy. You think its illegal because she doesnt want it?
stupid if you ask me
Im pro choice, but 20 weeks seems reasonable.
editing for manner.
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On April 29 2011 00:16 FrankWalls wrote:
im against abortion, so i of course think this law is a good thing. any step in this direction is a step in the right direction imo. i mean its a little human being inside, how could it be legal to kill it >.>
there are big human beings killed every year by the state of america, you call it death penalty, and guess what its legal !
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EPT
