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chickenhawk
Portugal339 Posts
And although i am against abortion, that does not mean i think people shoudn't abort, its there decision. What i do think is that both parents should make the decision together and not just the women. Normally it takes two poeple to make them, therefore it should take 2 people to make a decision. | ||
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scouting overlord
120 Posts
On April 28 2011 19:21 xarthaz wrote: The premise is the concept of justifiability. In order for justice to have meaning, justice needs to be universal, otherwise it is simply arbitrary judgements(aka state laws, which are due to that an irrelevant concept for arguments about morality like abortions). And propertarian justice is the only possible system of justice. Hence, the violation of the property rights of the fetus constitutes an unjustifiable action. You are ridiculous and have never known real injustice in your entire life. The 'property rights of the fetus' I can't even mock this it's so fucking stupid. | ||
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Fraidnot
United States824 Posts
On April 28 2011 18:55 Linkirvana wrote: Agree to disagree? To be honest I've always hated people who use those kind of sentences, except when we're talking about something actually subjective, like taste in food or music. Scientific evidence suggests the cells that get aborted are as alive as for example semen (Also known as: Not alive at all) Surely I realize the whole problem with people against abortion is the potential. However once again I'd like to point out that my semen has the same potential right before having sex. Deciding to put on a condom, or masturbating, both have the exact same effect as abortion. (The semen and egg don't get to grow to a point where a clump of cells actually starts to resemble a human being/something alive) What's this scientific evidence? That just sounds like you're making things up. I mean a fetus grows has it's own unique dna and consumes energy. You can't just simply compare it to semen, semen is a delivery system for dna that's not growing into a multi-celled organism like a fertilized egg. Humans develop overtime, a newborn baby's skeleton isn't fully formed, hell it takes us years before we can even reproduce and even longer for our brains to matured. I just think it's stupid to call something not alive just because it hasn't reached a certain state of development yet. | ||
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scouting overlord
120 Posts
On April 28 2011 19:28 chickenhawk wrote: What i do think is that both parents should make the decision together and not just the women. Normally it takes two poeple to make them, therefore it should take 2 people to make a decision. I thought you outright opposed it because a fetus is equal to a human life? So murder is fine when a man says it's ok as well? I mean the burden of pregnancy clearly effects the male as much as the female right? | ||
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scouting overlord
120 Posts
On April 28 2011 19:30 Fraidnot wrote: What's this scientific evidence? That just sounds like you're making things up. I mean a fetus grows has it's own unique dna and consumes energy. You can't just simply compare it to semen, semen is a delivery system for dna that's not growing into a multi-celled organism like a fertilized egg. Humans develop overtime, a newborn baby's skeleton isn't fully formed, hell it takes us years before we can even reproduce and even longer for our brains to matured. I just think it's stupid to call something not alive just because it hasn't reached a certain state of development yet. It's not conscious and is literally biologically dependant on the mother's body, not some wishy washy "WELL guys they're dependant before they can feed themselves anywayz" but literal biological dependence. It is wholly a part of the women's body. | ||
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feanor1
United States1899 Posts
On April 28 2011 19:32 scouting overlord wrote: I thought you outright opposed it because a fetus is equal to a human life? So murder is fine when a man says it's ok as well? I mean the burden of pregnancy clearly effects the male as much as the female right? Me thinks he might feel that if abortion is legal that both parties involved in the creation of said fetus should be involved in the demise of said fetus. And in his ideal world abortion would still be against the laws of the land, but we live in the real world so he has to work with what law there are. And no pregnancy clearly effects the female, but birthing a child clearly has an irreversible effect on the father and the mother forever altering both their futures. | ||
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Frigo
Hungary1023 Posts
On April 28 2011 18:21 scouting overlord wrote: A female should be the one allowed to make a decision As I and others have pointed out, it is not solely her decision, pointless to argue about it. You know birth control doesn't prevent all pregnancies right? You have sex education in your schools etc? There are numerous birth control methods with high rates of success (>99%), as well as emergency contraception. In today's modern world, you don't get pregnant unless you want to, or are incredibly stupid. Which one is you? The rest of your post is full of pig headed arguments blaming the woman for getting herself pregnant, that little slut. You don't get pregnant by accident. Your actions have consequences, get used to it. Nine months of pregnancy and nursing ain't a big price to pay after you are being a retard and fail to apply proper birth control methods and don't live with the opportunity of emergency contraception. If only she had more sense than to fall in love with a man who would leave her as soon as she became pregnant, heh stupid women. There is this thing called child support specifically invented to combat these cases, live with it. Unless of course the kid is not his. Otherwise kudos for being so incredibly stupid for trying to have kids with the inappropriate person at the inappropriate time. Aborting the child is 'creepy' but raising the unwanted child is great As I said in the goddamn first sentence of my post, put up the child for adoption if don't want to bother with it. There are lot of options, some with no questions asked. And let me repeat myself, being incredibly stupid, having unprotected sex, not using proper birth control, not using emergency contraception, nine months of "inconvenience" - neither of these contribute positively to your "right" to terminate fetuses. | ||
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Linkirvana
Netherlands365 Posts
What's this scientific evidence? That just sounds like you're making things up. I mean a fetus grows has it's own unique dna and consumes energy. You can't just simply compare it to semen, semen is a delivery system for dna that's not growing into a multi-celled organism like a fertilized egg. Humans develop overtime, a newborn baby's skeleton isn't fully formed, hell it takes us years before we can even reproduce and even longer for our brains to matured. I just think it's stupid to call something not alive just because it hasn't reached a certain state of development yet. If there was no scientific evidence there would be absolutely no argument in favor of abortion. Which would mean abortion would be illegal everywhere. I am very lazy in my argueing, making assumptions all around (Such as this one), therefor I will just suggest you go and look up why there's a certain point in a pregnancy where "shit gets real" (Because I couldn't tell you myself, I simply do not know and don't care enough to educate myself with all the boring details) | ||
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MozzarellaL
United States822 Posts
On April 28 2011 19:05 xarthaz wrote: THe difference between a trespasser and a baby in a womb is that the baby did not CHOOSE to violate the property rights of the mom, the mom herself chose that. Hence the claim that abortion is enforcement of womens property rights is incorrect, as a women herself demonstrated the preference of the baby having a right to living in her body, by the action of unprotected sex. This is crucial, because it is the CORE of the anti-life argument, and yet it is completely fallacious. No form of birth control is 100% effective, you need to stop talking. Nobody has ever said that people have a property right in their own body. That isn't stated anywhere in the constitution and no Supreme Court decision has ever come close to ruling to that effect (Not in Roe v. Wade, and fyi you don't even have property rights to your own genes or other body parts, see Moore v. Regents of Uni of California, which expressly rejected the concept of property rights to body). I don't even know where you're trying to go with your argument. | ||
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scouting overlord
120 Posts
The rest of your post is full of pig headed arguments blaming the woman for getting herself pregnant, that little slut. You don't get pregnant by accident. Your actions have consequences, get used to it. Nine months of pregnancy and nursing ain't a big price to pay after you are being a retard and fail to apply proper birth control methods and don't live with the opportunity of emergency contraception. Agreed, as I said that little fucking slut deserves what she has coming, haha 9 months of pregnancy cry me a river, am I right? If that stupid fucking woman gets herself pregnant then BIG DEAL, who cares it's not a big price to pay as you said. God I hate these fucking retarded women, if only they had the insight of a privileged and insulated first world male. | ||
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feanor1
United States1899 Posts
On April 28 2011 19:42 scouting overlord wrote: Agreed, as I said that little fucking slut deserves what she has coming, haha 9 months of pregnancy cry me a river, am I right? If that stupid fucking woman gets herself pregnant then BIG DEAL, who cares it's not a big price to pay as you said. God I hate these fucking retarded women, if only they had the insight of a privileged and insulated first world male. Nobody else is insulating that women are retarded and deserve less rights than a male, only you are. Stop trying to demonize people on a forum by adding derogatory remarks to their words so it sounds as if they want to return to the middle ages, it isn't conductive to meaningful discussion. | ||
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scouting overlord
120 Posts
And let me repeat myself, being incredibly stupid, having unprotected sex, not using proper birth control, not using emergency contraception, nine months of "inconvenience" - neither of these contribute positively to your "right" to terminate fetuses. Going to quote this again for posterity  . Nine months of "inconvenience" rofl, you have no idea. A fetus has no feelings or consciousness just so you know. It's not alive, there is so such thing a a soul, and there is no inherent value to human life . The rights of the woman > the rights of the fetus, always and forever . | ||
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scouting overlord
120 Posts
On April 28 2011 19:46 feanor1 wrote: Nobody else is insulating that women are retarded and deserve less rights than a male, only you are. Stop trying to demonize people on a forum by adding derogatory remarks to their words so it sounds as if they want to return to the middle ages, it isn't conductive to meaningful discussion. The language he used was clearly misogynistic and placed the blame of pregnancy on the woman. Maybe he looked like an intelligent and rational debater to American standards, but over here he looks fucking reprehensible. Sorry if this hurts your precious little feelings, expendable male #21415986 | ||
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Aldehyde
Sweden939 Posts
On April 28 2011 19:46 feanor1 wrote: Nobody else is insulating that women are retarded and deserve less rights than a male, only you are. Stop trying to demonize people on a forum by adding derogatory remarks to their words so it sounds as if they want to return to the middle ages, it isn't conductive to meaningful discussion. If men got pregnant instead of women, this discussion wouldn't happen. I am completely sure of that. | ||
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Deadlyfish
Denmark1980 Posts
Yes you do? I dont know what to say, lots of people get pregnant by accident, you cant deny that. Even if you take every precaution you can it still has a chance of happening. Dont deny facts. | ||
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scouting overlord
120 Posts
On April 28 2011 19:48 Aldehyde wrote: If men got pregnant instead of women, this discussion wouldn't happen. I am completely sure of that. CORRECT. If both parties could get pregnant, and could decide which one got pregnant then it would be 50/50. | ||
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MozzarellaL
United States822 Posts
On April 28 2011 19:38 Frigo wrote: As I and others have pointed out, it is not solely her decision, pointless to argue about it. Yes it is. The reason is the dad could skip town, and it would be a waste of medical and state resources to track every single abortion request to determine whether there was a father who wanted to contribute to the decision. There are numerous birth control methods with high rates of success (>99%), as well as emergency contraception. In today's modern world, you don't get pregnant unless you want to, or are incredibly stupid. Which one is you? Emergency contraception is biochemically-induced abortion. You fail, so very very hard. You don't get pregnant by accident. Your actions have consequences, get used to it. Nine months of pregnancy and nursing ain't a big price to pay after you are being a retard and fail to apply proper birth control methods and don't live with the opportunity of emergency contraception. Neither is $400. Shut up. There is this thing called child support specifically invented to combat these cases, live with it. Unless of course the kid is not his. Otherwise kudos for being so incredibly stupid for trying to have kids with the inappropriate person at the inappropriate time. Your point is irrelevant because fathers cannot force their fetus' momma to get an abortion. As I said in the goddamn first sentence of my post, put up the child for adoption if don't want to bother with it. There are lot of options, some with no questions asked. The biggest adoption demands are for caucasian babies. Do you think the majority of abortions are given to white women? You can't just 'give the child up for adoption'. What if nobody wants it? it is preferable to burden the state to raise a kid, or preferable for the state to fund a clothes hanger. I mean just take a step back and look at the inherent hypocrisy of your argument. On one hand, you say woman should live with their decision and accept responsibility (what about the dad? takes two to make a baby, but the mother is usually the one carrying the burden in these types of cases), and then on the other hand you say "just give it up for adoption" (thereby passing responsibility to someone else). Which is it? Pick a stance and be consistent. And let me repeat myself, being incredibly stupid, having unprotected sex, not using proper birth control, not using emergency contraception, nine months of "inconvenience" - neither of these contribute positively to your "right" to terminate fetuses. None of that matters. If a woman decides she doesn't want a kid, finds out she is pregnant, go get rid of it. I personally couldn't care less the reasons or events leading up to the circumstance. | ||
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scouting overlord
120 Posts
None of that matters. If a woman decides she doesn't want a kid, finds out she is pregnant, go get rid of it. I personally couldn't care less the reasons or events leading up to the circumstance. Strongly agreed . | ||
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Blardy
United States290 Posts
A man does not get pregnant . It's not even close to 50/50. You have no idea what pregnancy does to a person's body and mind.Women don't leave men to spite them out of child support. Taking your child from the biological father isn't something women just do to 'run off with another man'. Just because you wouldn't, doesn't mean 100% of women wouldn't. Yes a man can't get pregnant so he should have absolutely no say at all? It still takes 2 people to get pregnant. I dont see why women complain about having to get pregnant, if you dont want kids, dont have them and stop complaining. If you want them, dont complain about having some pain, cravings, and people doing what you ask. If you did get pregnant and dont want the kid, i say abortion. | ||
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scouting overlord
120 Posts
On April 28 2011 19:49 Deadlyfish wrote: @Frigo - "you dont get pregnant by accident"? Yes you do? I dont know what to say, lots of people get pregnant by accident, you cant deny that. Even if you take every precaution you can it still has a chance of happening. Dont deny facts. Actually, Frigo is a male who swears a lot in his language so his opinon is really important. He clearly understands the mental and physical pains of pregnancy and childbirth just as much as a pregnant woman does, as well as the situations leading up to pregnancy, aka some unthinking dumb slut doesn't use a condom (?!?) and gets herself pregnant, so she deserves it, serves her right. Everyone in all nations has great sex education obviously, there's definitely no misunderstanding of what it takes to avoid being pregnant even in first world nations. | ||
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