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I don't care if the poor man feels sad, it's nothing compared to an unwanted childbirth. There is no way, no how that a man's part is equal in birthing and raising a child.
So you feel a mother is far more important than a father? I think that's biased and absolutely idiotic.
An unwanted childbirth is as fucked up for the man as it is for the woman. Again, only seperated by 9 months of carrying around a child.
Which by the way I'm told can be pretty awesome and isn't all horrific pain and suffering. :Edit: lol thought about pregnancy in general, clearly unwanted ones aren't awesome at all, haha
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On April 28 2011 18:20 Frigo wrote:
Either use proper protection and don't get pregnant in the first place, or carry it out and put up the baby for adoption. Abortion is a non-solution, and a rather creepy one, it should only be used under extreme circumstances like deformations, defects, disease, rape, you get the idea.
Wow... I can't even begin to say how pissed off you make me right now.
And what, now people can choose which kids to keep anyway? Why should we let people abort kids with some kind of defect. I mean, they can still lead a wonderful and rich life. Why ruin that?
Proper protection... GAH! It pisses me off so. This stems from the same shit that says that girls can't have sex with anyone they want without being looked down upon or being called words like "slut". As if being a slut is a bad thing.
Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 17:04 Aldehyde wrote:
And yet again it's men talking about abortions, telling the women what they can and can't do.
[...]
To me, it's irrelevant if it's to kill something or not. It's all about the woman's choice.
[...]
Getting an abortion is probably the best for both the kid and the woman going through with it.
Arrogant statements to say the least. Does the father and the kid (fetus, whatever) not have any say in the matter? Despite the former having at least as much right to the kid as the mother, and the latter's chance to life being at stake? It is NOT solely the women's decision. Stop acting like it is.
Quite frankly, no. The father doesn't have any say in the matter. You're still acting like it's an easy choice for the woman. Don't, it makes you look so fucking ridiculously stupid.
Nice going on taking me out of context as well.
And the most arrogant of them all, trying to justify it. Poverty is not solved by killing off the poor, what you are essentially suggesting. It is solved by giving them proper education, including about preventing unwanted pregnancies, access to protection, or a chance to emerge from poverty and to raise their offsprings under fair living conditions, without endlessly propagating the poverty they are living in.
Didn't even mention solving poverty. What does poverty have to do with anything here? Unwanted pregnancies leads to adoptions which can lead to the kid growing up in rough environments which may lead to crime.
The mother that puts the child up for adoption is not necessarily poor so poverty has nothing to do with it.
Are we talking about the same woman who got pregnant without wanting to, "by accident"? Why yes, she demonstrated a heavy lack of responsibility and shown she is utterly incapable of correct decisions. She's stupid, indeed, and deserves no say in the matter when other rights, interests and opinions are in play. Especially since she made her decision when she got pregnant.
Haha, oh my fucking deity. Yes, perhaps she acted irresponsibly, is that a reason to mess up her whole life? Seriously? Are you really that grim?
"[...] made her decision when she got pregnant". Yeah, that's what she did. She obviously wanted to get pregnant then just changed her mind a few weeks later. That's it.
And even if that IS the case, LET HER CHANGE HER DAMN MIND!
By the way, it would be nice if I heard swedish people spewing anything else other than state-mandated "correct" opinions.
And this... Just because I am from Sweden and we have things that are done by the government means I am brainwashed and shit, right? Yep, I don't have any opinions of my own, at all. Because my government handles health care.
If I was American, what would you say then? I bet if I was Canadian, I'd still be brainwashed.
But the US is free from such things. I mean, it's said in your constitution that state and religion should be separate yet presidents have to swear in by the bible and the same thing in court. Makes perfect sense.
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On April 28 2011 19:04 scouting overlord wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 19:02 Linkirvana wrote:You must be fucking joking. 'Carrying the child for 9 months seems trivial' I'm guessing you're not a father, or a woman who's been through childbirth, which is a greater physical and mental pain than you'll ever experience fyi. But I'm sure having a small % of your money deposited to the mother is just as important, as well as your precious little feelings about the child you neglected to raise. Even if you're still with your pregnant partner, if she doesn't want to bear the child it's her body and her right  . Maybe next life you can experience how great it is to be female in this world, with Brave Men FIGHTING FOR THE UNBORN RIGHTS, but for now you'll just have to wait. I'm not a father, nor a woman. Also wow your arguments are all over the place, making very little sense at all. You think the difference between a woman's responsibility to her child, and a man's responsibility to his child is only seperated by the 9 months of carrying the child? Carrying a child for 9 months does indeed seem trivial compared to the lifetime of responsibility that comes with it for both man and woman. In my eyes both the man and the woman have equal responsibility for the child, which means they will both be "equally burdened (Spelling?) by it" A lifetime of responsibility compared to 9 months of being pregnant. Ofcourse I'm assuming the father feels as responsible as he should. I'm not talking about deadbeat dads, fuck those. I don't care if the poor man feels sad, it's nothing compared to an unwanted childbirth. There is no way, no how that a man's part is equal in birthing and raising a child.
You know I think 18 years of guidance, emotional and financial support is a major major part of a mans life. Hell if he isn't a shitty parent he might be providing guidance on important life decisions till his child is in their 30s and 40s, but hell that doesn't mean anything.
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On April 28 2011 19:07 Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 19:04 scouting overlord wrote:On April 28 2011 19:02 Linkirvana wrote:You must be fucking joking. 'Carrying the child for 9 months seems trivial' I'm guessing you're not a father, or a woman who's been through childbirth, which is a greater physical and mental pain than you'll ever experience fyi. But I'm sure having a small % of your money deposited to the mother is just as important, as well as your precious little feelings about the child you neglected to raise. Even if you're still with your pregnant partner, if she doesn't want to bear the child it's her body and her right . Maybe next life you can experience how great it is to be female in this world, with Brave Men FIGHTING FOR THE UNBORN RIGHTS, but for now you'll just have to wait. I'm not a father, nor a woman. Also wow your arguments are all over the place, making very little sense at all. You think the difference between a woman's responsibility to her child, and a man's responsibility to his child is only seperated by the 9 months of carrying the child? Carrying a child for 9 months does indeed seem trivial compared to the lifetime of responsibility that comes with it for both man and woman. In my eyes both the man and the woman have equal responsibility for the child, which means they will both be "equally burdened (Spelling?) by it" A lifetime of responsibility compared to 9 months of being pregnant. Ofcourse I'm assuming the father feels as responsible as he should. I'm not talking about deadbeat dads, fuck those. I don't care if the poor man feels sad, it's nothing compared to an unwanted childbirth. There is no way, no how that a man's part is equal in birthing and raising a child. Women raising children is just a societal thing. Beyond being able to feed them fairly well by having the goods, (uneducated on issue) I think men statistically do just as well. The amount of labor required to provide child support demanded by courts is pretty hefty.
You have never experienced pregnancy. You never will experience pregnancy. No male will, and it's a greater burden on the women, both mentally and physically, than whatever "statistics" and "labor" the court puts on you. It will scar her body and mind for life, not just for when the court dictates your "labor time"
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You have never experienced pregnancy. You never will experience pregnancy. No male will, and it's a greater burden on the women, both mentally and physically, than whatever "statistics" and "labor" the court puts on you. It will scar her body and mind for life, not just for when the court dictates your "labor time"
You seem to base your entire argument around the fact that unwanted pregnancy = deadbeat dad who will leave and not care.
Daddy issues? :/
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Haha, oh my fucking deity. Yes, perhaps she acted irresponsibly, is that a reason to mess up her whole life? Seriously? Are you really that grim?
"[...] made her decision when she got pregnant". Yeah, that's what she did. She obviously wanted to get pregnant then just changed her mind a few weeks later. That's it.
And even if that IS the case, LET HER CHANGE HER DAMN MIND!
Her changing her mind constitutes murder of the baby, as it violates the implicit transfer of property rights of the inside of the womb from woman to baby during conception
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On April 28 2011 19:07 Linkirvana wrote:Show nested quote +I don't care if the poor man feels sad, it's nothing compared to an unwanted childbirth. There is no way, no how that a man's part is equal in birthing and raising a child.
An unwanted childbirth is as fucked up for the man as it is for the woman. Again, only seperated by 9 months of carrying around a child.
I'll let this slide as you defend the women's right to abortion at least. But trust me on this, nothing you ever experience is even close to childbirth. It isn't 'only' or 'just' 9 months from the women's point of view, and you should respect that. No one should be forced to go through childbirth unwillingly.
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On April 28 2011 19:12 scouting overlord wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 19:07 Linkirvana wrote:I don't care if the poor man feels sad, it's nothing compared to an unwanted childbirth. There is no way, no how that a man's part is equal in birthing and raising a child.
An unwanted childbirth is as fucked up for the man as it is for the woman. Again, only seperated by 9 months of carrying around a child. I'll let this slide as you defend the women's right to abortion at least. But trust me on this, nothing you ever experience is even close to childbirth. It isn't 'only' or 'just' 9 months from the women's point of view, and you should respect that. No one should be forced to go through childbirth unwillingly.
C-sections aren't illegal. Yes their are whole host of other things involved in pregnancy, but to dismiss a man role in raising a child as trivial is beyond stupid
Yes I added some content, but you seem intent on saying that a Father has no role in a child's life, which is stupid. Personally in my 20s I still seek my dads advice on a lot more things than my moms. But apparently the only thing to take into consideration with regards to getting an abortion is the physical trauma of pregnancy. I would think that 18 years of being forced to care for, expected to provide emotional support, putting career aspirations on hold if your single and such would be a bigger concern that the pregnancy itself.
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On April 28 2011 19:11 Linkirvana wrote:Show nested quote +You have never experienced pregnancy. You never will experience pregnancy. No male will, and it's a greater burden on the women, both mentally and physically, than whatever "statistics" and "labor" the court puts on you. It will scar her body and mind for life, not just for when the court dictates your "labor time" You seem to base your entire argument around the fact that unwanted pregnancy = deadbeat dad who will leave and not care. Daddy issues? :/
It's based around pregnancy being a burden wholly put on the woman and her body you fucking mong.
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On April 28 2011 19:07 scouting overlord wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 19:05 xarthaz wrote:On April 28 2011 19:01 scouting overlord wrote:On April 28 2011 18:59 xarthaz wrote:On April 28 2011 11:02 gun.slinger wrote:
Old man regulating what happen inside a women womb :S With all due respect, would you liked to be considered justifiable to be murdered, if some big monster ate you and you lived in its belly. Would that give justification for other monsters to suck you out of the belly and break your vertebrae in a brutal manner. Lmfao, I can't even parody how stupid this is. WELL, does it justify it??? HUH?? Bet you never thought of it this way guys! THe difference between a trespasser and a baby in a womb is that the baby did not CHOOSE to violate the property rights of the mom, the mom herself chose that. Hence the claim that abortion is enforcement of womens property rights is incorrect, as a women herself demonstrated the preference of the baby having a right to living in her body, by the action of unprotected sex. This is crucial, because it is the CORE of the anti-life argument, and yet it is completely fallacious. You are crazy, just so you know. None of your points are intelligent or relevant to real life. "Anti-life" isn't a position people take. Please return to whatever conservative white male-dominated echo chamber you came from. So please show the fallacies or false premises of the argument
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On April 28 2011 19:13 feanor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 19:12 scouting overlord wrote:On April 28 2011 19:07 Linkirvana wrote:I don't care if the poor man feels sad, it's nothing compared to an unwanted childbirth. There is no way, no how that a man's part is equal in birthing and raising a child.
An unwanted childbirth is as fucked up for the man as it is for the woman. Again, only seperated by 9 months of carrying around a child. I'll let this slide as you defend the women's right to abortion at least. But trust me on this, nothing you ever experience is even close to childbirth. It isn't 'only' or 'just' 9 months from the women's point of view, and you should respect that. No one should be forced to go through childbirth unwillingly. C-sections aren't illegal.
Oh wow thanks for this. I guess when someone wants an abortion I'll just say "C-sections aren't illegal", this makes sense. Thanks for your input, it's really equal just like the precious male is equal in bearing a child.
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I'll let this slide as you defend the women's right to abortion at least. But trust me on this, nothing you ever experience is even close to childbirth. It isn't 'only' or 'just' 9 months from the women's point of view, and you should respect that. No one should be forced to go through childbirth unwillingly.
As I pointed out, a woman does have a veto right because of that.
However to completely cut the guy out of the equation is idiotic, and makes no sense at all.
Also, I didn't use these arguments to somehow give the guy more rights than the woman, I wasn't implying that a man can force a woman through childbirth unwillingly at all.
On second thought I realize I may have implied that after all, considering there are only 2 options.
I guess you should forget everything I posted towards you since I didn't think my side of the story through at all. Wow, I'm pretty amazed by how I was not thinking at all.
Wow
:Edit: I realize this looks very sarcastic, but I'm not. Clearly if a man disagrees with the woman in this specific case the woman's opinion is the one that will count the most obviously.
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Agree to disagree? To be honest I've always hated people who use those kind of sentences, except when we're talking about something actually subjective, like taste in food or music.
I do not care what science says in this matter, for me the live of a child starts when egg meets sperm.. and an embryo is form.
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On April 28 2011 19:11 xarthaz wrote:Show nested quote +
Haha, oh my fucking deity. Yes, perhaps she acted irresponsibly, is that a reason to mess up her whole life? Seriously? Are you really that grim?
"[...] made her decision when she got pregnant". Yeah, that's what she did. She obviously wanted to get pregnant then just changed her mind a few weeks later. That's it.
And even if that IS the case, LET HER CHANGE HER DAMN MIND!
Her changing her mind constitutes murder of the baby, as it violates the implicit transfer of property rights of the inside of the womb from woman to baby during conception
Please tell me this isn't a serious argument. So she violated property rights of some cells? Please explain.
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On April 28 2011 19:17 chickenhawk wrote:Show nested quote +Agree to disagree? To be honest I've always hated people who use those kind of sentences, except when we're talking about something actually subjective, like taste in food or music. I do not care what science says in this matter, for me the live of a child starts when egg meets sperm.. and an embryo is form.
Local priest told you that?
Again, imagining things and using them as arguments is not really how you should argue.
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On April 28 2011 18:32 scouting overlord wrote:
You're arguing that a man who breaks up with a pregnant woman should be allowed to force her to have the child? You think monetary child support is even on the same level as childbirth?
Cry me a river macho man, it's her child in her body and you have no leg to stand on if you've broken up with her in pregnancy, you know the most important time to care for your wife?
Its not her child, its theirs. A woman can't get pregnant without a male. So the choice should be 50/50 no matter what.
What if the woman had broken up with the male and just wants child support while she runs off to raise the kid with another man? Should the real father have no say?
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On April 28 2011 19:19 SpiffD wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 19:11 xarthaz wrote:
Haha, oh my fucking deity. Yes, perhaps she acted irresponsibly, is that a reason to mess up her whole life? Seriously? Are you really that grim?
"[...] made her decision when she got pregnant". Yeah, that's what she did. She obviously wanted to get pregnant then just changed her mind a few weeks later. That's it.
And even if that IS the case, LET HER CHANGE HER DAMN MIND!
Her changing her mind constitutes murder of the baby, as it violates the implicit transfer of property rights of the inside of the womb from woman to baby during conception Please tell me this isn't a serious argument. So she violated property rights of some cells? Please explain.
The premise is the concept of justifiability. In order for justice to have meaning, justice needs to be universal, otherwise it is simply arbitrary judgements(aka state laws, which are due to that an irrelevant concept for arguments about morality like abortions). And propertarian justice is the only possible system of justice. Hence, the violation of the property rights of the fetus constitutes an unjustifiable action.
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On April 28 2011 19:21 Blardy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 18:32 scouting overlord wrote:
You're arguing that a man who breaks up with a pregnant woman should be allowed to force her to have the child? You think monetary child support is even on the same level as childbirth?
Cry me a river macho man, it's her child in her body and you have no leg to stand on if you've broken up with her in pregnancy, you know the most important time to care for your wife? Its not her child, its theirs. A woman can't get pregnant without a male. So the choice should be 50/50 no matter what. What if the woman had broken up with the male and just wants child support while she runs off to raise the kid with another man? Should the real father have no say?
The thing is though, we're talking about abortion. Should the father have a say in that? I mean, imagine the man disagreeing with the woman, what should happen then? A woman should just go through pregnancy because the man doesn't want an abortion, and vice versa?
It actually makes no sense to say the father should have a say in abortion, because he simply cannot, unless he agrees.
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The premise is the concept of justifiability. In order for justice to have meaning, justice needs to be universal, otherwise it is simply arbitrary judgements(aka state laws, which are due to that an irrelevant concept for arguments about morality like abortions). And propertarian justice is the only possible system of justice. Hence, the violation of the property rights of the fetus constitutes an unjustifiable action.
What makes you think the fetus has any rights at all? Also I don't really get why what you're saying is not arbitrary. Propertarian justice seems to be as much man-made as any of the other examples you're giving.
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On April 28 2011 19:21 Blardy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 18:32 scouting overlord wrote:
You're arguing that a man who breaks up with a pregnant woman should be allowed to force her to have the child? You think monetary child support is even on the same level as childbirth?
Cry me a river macho man, it's her child in her body and you have no leg to stand on if you've broken up with her in pregnancy, you know the most important time to care for your wife? Its not her child, its theirs. A woman can't get pregnant without a male. So the choice should be 50/50 no matter what. What if the woman had broken up with the male and just wants child support while she runs off to raise the kid with another man? Should the real father have no say?
A man does not get pregnant . It's not even close to 50/50. You have no idea what pregnancy does to a person's body and mind.
Women don't leave men to spite them out of child support. Taking your child from the biological father isn't something women just do to 'run off with another man'.
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EPT
