EPT[D] Complete Dvorak switch - Page 3
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Craton
United States17303 Posts
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6642 Posts
On April 24 2011 02:22 Craton wrote: Pretty sure the whole "QWERTY is terrible" thing is largely mythology and urband legend. Enlighten yourself my friend. http://www.cracked.com/article_19151_5-bad-ideas-humanity-sticking-with-out-habit.html Tbh though I used to think the same thing  | ||
Heyoka
Katowice25012 Posts
On April 23 2011 16:33 Antoine wrote: I use dvorak on my computer, and qwerty on any school computers I use. I am slightly faster on dvorak but the main benefit is definitely in comfort, it simply feels way better. As for gaming, some games support it natively (League of Legends just detects it and uses the ',.p as qwer), but for the others i have an easy hotkey set up to switch to qwerty. I don't know if, starting now, I'd take the time to do it though. I did it one summer doing high school when I didn't have to type regularly, and now I have no such gap in my time where i can really do what's necessary to learn it. Having a gap in typing would probably be necessary for me too, but i'm pretty lazy so even then I don't know. Its interesting but I'll probably never try. | ||
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FishFuzz99
United States152 Posts
It's probably still in for the same reason we use the English measurement system. It is just to big of a pain to switch. | ||
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Nightfall.589
Canada766 Posts
![[image loading]](http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/well.png) Alt text: I'll concede ergonomics anecdotally, but none of the studies of Dvorak were at all rigorous (the most-cited Navy study was overseen by Dvorak himself). And the 'slow typists down' thing is a myth. Also EMACS RULES VI DROOLS WOOOOOOO!" Either way, the cost of adoption... Is not worth switching - especially since the rest of the world will keep designing macros and shortcuts for QWERTY. | ||
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youngminii
Australia7514 Posts
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Antoine
United States7481 Posts
On April 24 2011 03:09 youngminii wrote: Even though I've switched (typing this in dvorak), I did it for fun and to type faster. If you're looking for efficiency, why not learn a constructed language? They're 'more efficient' than real languages. not really the same there, for language to be effective other people need to know it too. for keyboard layout, you could be the only one in the world and not lose anything. | ||
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hifriend
China7935 Posts
On April 23 2011 16:33 Antoine wrote: I use dvorak on my computer, and qwerty on any school computers I use. I am slightly faster on dvorak but the main benefit is definitely in comfort, it simply feels way better. As for gaming, some games support it natively (League of Legends just detects it and uses the ',.p as qwer), but for the others i have an easy hotkey set up to switch to qwerty. I don't know if, starting now, I'd take the time to do it though. I did it one summer doing high school when I didn't have to type regularly, and now I have no such gap in my time where i can really do what's necessary to learn it. Isn't it very hard switching back and forth? I've had thoughts on switching for some time, but I'm afraid if I use DVORAK I will ruin my qwerty typing skills and won't be able to use any computer other than my own. | ||
Myles
United States5162 Posts
On April 24 2011 03:13 Antoine wrote: not really the same there, for language to be effective other people need to know it too. for keyboard layout, you could be the only one in the world and not lose anything. It's clearly not the same, but what happens when you need to use a different computer? | ||
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stafu
Australia1196 Posts
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Vespillo
United States13 Posts
The other problem is that a lot of games have qwerty built into your computer regardless of which format you setup on your own computer through the language settings so it got to be a bit useless to try and use dvorak when you load up your favorite game, start typing, and it goes back to qwerty. That and keybindings become your new hell. I switched to dvorak on my computer for a solid month and really gave it a good go and got up to 40 wpm when I type 80ish on qwerty. All in all, not worth it imho. | ||
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Eiii
United States2566 Posts
On April 24 2011 03:20 stafu wrote: How wanky is it setting up Ctrl-C/Ctrl-X/Ctrl-V and other standard system hotkeys on Dvorak though? I've just gotten used to what those all have turned into-- Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V turns into Ctrl-I/Ctrl-. which is not that bad at all-- Ctrl-w turns into Ctrl-, which actually feels much better than Ctrl-w imo. | ||
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Clues
United States186 Posts
Starting at page 8: The QWERTY design is reputed to be far inferior to the "scientifically" designed Dvorak keyboard, which allegedly offered a 40 percent increase in typing speed. Supposedly, the Navy conducted experiments during World War II demonstrating that the costs of retraining typists on the new keyboard could be fully recovered within 10 days. The story is claimed to validate path dependence: no typists learn Dvorak because too many others use QWERTY, which increases the value of QWERTY all the more. That is an ideal example because the number of dimensions of performance is small, and in those dimensions, the Dvorak keyboard appears overwhelmingly superior. Yet upon investigation, the story appears to be based on nothing more than wishful thinking and a shoddy reading of the history of the typewriter keyboard. The QWERTY keyboard, it turns out, is about as good a design as the Dvorak keyboard and was better than most competing designs that existed in the late 1800s when there were many keyboard designs maneuvering for a place in the market. Ignored in the stories of Dvorak's superiority is a carefully controlled experiment conducted under the auspices of the General Services Administration in the 1950s comparing QWERTY with Dvorak. That experiment contradicted the claims made by advocates of Dvorak and concluded that retraining typists on the Dvorak keyboard made no sense. Modern research in ergonomics also finds little advantage in the Dvorak keyboard layout, confirming the results of the GSA study. So on what bases were the claims of Dvorak's superiority made? Critical examination shows that most, if not all, of the claims of Dvorak's superiority can be traced to the patent owner, August Dvorak. His book on the relative merits of QWERTY and his own keyboard is about as objective as a television infomercial. The wartime Navy study turns out to have been conducted under the auspices of the Navy's chief expert in time-motion studies--Lt. Comdr. August Dvorak--and the results of that study were clearly fudged. There is far more to the story, but it all leads to the conclusion that the QWERTY story qualifies as no better than a convenient myth. http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa324b.pdf | ||
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niteReloaded
Croatia5282 Posts
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Lorken
New Zealand804 Posts
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reprise
Canada316 Posts
On April 24 2011 02:06 Starfox wrote: And you surely are happy to link to studies which back up your claims? The only studies done on the Dvorak layout were done by dvorak himself, you can guess yourself what the conclusion of those was  I would love to be able to link anything for either side of the argument but there really isn't any sound conclusions for either argument other than anecdotal evidence. All I have to base my opinion on are the many people who would personally vouch for Dvorak's ergonomic benefits. I've never commented on its speed in relation to Qwerty as I feel that could be questionable, and is a different argument altogether. I myself have contemplated switching to Dvorak or Colemak out of sheer curiosity but I simply don't type as often as my friends do. Also, juggling different layouts between home, school, and work would be a major bitch. | ||
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Antoine
United States7481 Posts
On April 24 2011 03:15 hifriend wrote: Isn't it very hard switching back and forth? I've had thoughts on switching for some time, but I'm afraid if I use DVORAK I will ruin my qwerty typing skills and won't be able to use any computer other than my own. it's fairly trivial to switch back to QWERTY. I would say i started out at 95 wpm on qwerty, now i type about 110 on dvorak and 90 on qwerty, simply due to a lack of practice. it's no huge deal going back when i'm on a school computer though, I just automatically type in qwerty when a keyboard feels different from my home one. | ||
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Craton
United States17303 Posts
On April 24 2011 02:24 jello_biafra wrote: Enlighten yourself my friend. http://www.cracked.com/article_19151_5-bad-ideas-humanity-sticking-with-out-habit.html Tbh though I used to think the same thing Cracked is not a reliable source  http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa324b.pdf This fits with what my general understanding has been. | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4443 Posts
On April 24 2011 02:22 Craton wrote: Pretty sure the whole "QWERTY is terrible" thing is largely mythology and urband legend. Alot of people just hate stuff because it's popular | ||
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bmn
886 Posts
On April 24 2011 03:15 hifriend wrote: Isn't it very hard switching back and forth? I've had thoughts on switching for some time, but I'm afraid if I use DVORAK I will ruin my qwerty typing skills and won't be able to use any computer other than my own. No, it's not very hard to switch back and forth. It's actually very easy. *BUT* you do need to learn Dvorak properly first, which is much easier if you can afford to not switch back and forth too often for a while. Once the muscle memory sits in, switching back and forth is pretty trivial -- I don't know anyone who switched back once they were settled with Dvorak, but I do know people -- including myself, at first -- who gave up on Dvorak when they didn't have enough time to learn it. (My first attempt was during a period where I had many reports to type -- not a good idea.) Once you're comfortable with Dvorak (I'd say give it two weeks, perhaps a month or so tops), switching back and forth is painful for the first two or so days, but then you'll get your Qwerty muscle memory back if you actually need to type it every now and then. I probably have ~90WPM Qwerty now, which I rarely type much (just to log in and in-game sometimes), down from a previous ~110WPM. | ||
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