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My friend convinced me earlier to switch to the Dvorak layout and I have been using it for a day now. I have simply changed my input language to Dvorak English and its quite fun learning to type all over again. I love how I cannot look at the keyboard and cheat. The thing about changing is that you will forget your qwerty and need to give Dvorak a lot of time.
Also its easy to use on other PCs. DvAssist lets you switch after a few clicks and you can take it with you. Also has a helpful thing that shows you the layout.
If you haven't tried it, give it a go if you have time!
I was wondering how many people have tried this and what their experience with this is and what happened.
I was also wondering how hard it gets for gaming with this layout.
Links:
Dvassist: http://www.clabs.org/blogki/index.cgi?page=/ComputersAndTechnology/DvAssist
Tutorials:
http://gigliwood.com/abcd/
http://learn.dvorak.nl/
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I tried this at work the other day just for fun. Cool to do but I couldn't get any work done because it took me about a minute to type a single sentence <.<
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I dont actually see the point, though. I mean, I'd like to think that my QWERTY typing skills are quite good now. Been able to type without looking since I was like 14, can type pretty quickly when I need to...
Why bother?
I guess in this case you seem to be doing it omre for fun, but I've read mnay times that eventually the DVORAK setup will be standard...
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On April 23 2011 11:13 Crazyeyes wrote:
I dont actually see the point, though. I mean, I'd like to think that my QWERTY typing skills are quite good now. Been able to type without looking since I was like 14, can type pretty quickly when I need to...
Why bother?
I guess in this case you seem to be doing it omre for fun, but I've read mnay times that eventually the DVORAK setup will be standard...
QWERTY is inefficient, and causes carpal tunnel and other typing strain problems. Plus, DVORAK is designed for speed, meaning you can type faster as well.
Great for people who type all day.
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I doubt it will ever be standard, people dislike changing habits. Also can go around saying Dvorak master race xD
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On April 23 2011 11:13 Crazyeyes wrote:
I dont actually see the point, though. I mean, I'd like to think that my QWERTY typing skills are quite good now. Been able to type without looking since I was like 14, can type pretty quickly when I need to...
Why bother?
I guess in this case you seem to be doing it omre for fun, but I've read mnay times that eventually the DVORAK setup will be standard...
QWERTY is designed to slow you down. It's an archaic layout that typewriters employed so you don't jam the keys by typing too fast. Since you can't really break your keyboard by typing too fast anymore, there really is no point of keeping QWERTY.
I've been looking to change to a more efficient layout, but then that would mean reassigning keys from games, and that's just damn annoying.
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You could actually look at the keyboard and cheat, if your keyboard has removable keys...
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Seeing as I already type 130 wpm on QWERTY, will I see an improvement on Dvorak? I tried switching about a year ago but it was too much work so I quit.
And also there's the issue of gaming.
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Uh, how am I gonna play Starcraft with that keyboard? Too much effort to learn for better efficiency? 
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On April 23 2011 11:37 The_LiNk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 11:13 Crazyeyes wrote:
I dont actually see the point, though. I mean, I'd like to think that my QWERTY typing skills are quite good now. Been able to type without looking since I was like 14, can type pretty quickly when I need to...
Why bother?
I guess in this case you seem to be doing it omre for fun, but I've read mnay times that eventually the DVORAK setup will be standard... QWERTY is designed to slow you down. It's an archaic layout that typewriters employed so you don't jam the keys by typing too fast. Since you can't really break your keyboard by typing too fast anymore, there really is no point of keeping QWERTY. I've been looking to change to a more efficient layout, but then that would mean reassigning keys from games, and that's just damn annoying.
Yeah, I knew that typewriter thing, and it makes sense.
Until you get used to it.
How is it that QWERTY causes carpal tunnel, but Dvorak doesn't? Does this make sense?
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On April 23 2011 11:54 Crazyeyes wrote:
How is it that QWERTY causes carpal tunnel, but Dvorak doesn't? Does this make sense?
The theory is that the Dvorak layout positions more commonly used keys in easier to reach places, which causes less strain. or something.
IDK if its true, but thats the marketing ploy.
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On April 23 2011 11:54 Crazyeyes wrote:
How is it that QWERTY causes carpal tunnel, but Dvorak doesn't? Does this make sense?
QWERTy is designed to make each finger move as far as possible to type common words and phrases. DVORAK is made to ensure minimal finger movement.
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In my opinion, Dvorak is completely useless unless your job is to retype something. Any decent typer can get 100 wpm+ with qwerty, which is more than enough. Sure, you may be able to type at 120 wpm with a dvorak layout, but can you think at 120 wpm? I type ~110 with qwerty, but when I'm typing out an essay or something I suspect it's somewhere closer to 50 wpm.
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It's not really that much faster. You would probably get faster if you spend the time it takes to learn it and practiced instead. However, I learned Dvorak about 2 years ago and it's my primary layout now. I do switch to qwerty for gaming purposes, and I can still type decently on it. I'm much more used to it now, and I find it a lot more comfortable.
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I might teach my kids Dvorak, but this old dog is done.
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Qwerty is designed to slow you down? really? I type around 100-110 with qwerty.....I don't see a point. I mean the standard is Qwerty EEEVERRYYWHERERERERERE
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On April 23 2011 11:37 The_LiNk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 11:13 Crazyeyes wrote:
I dont actually see the point, though. I mean, I'd like to think that my QWERTY typing skills are quite good now. Been able to type without looking since I was like 14, can type pretty quickly when I need to...
Why bother?
I guess in this case you seem to be doing it omre for fun, but I've read mnay times that eventually the DVORAK setup will be standard... QWERTY is designed to slow you down. It's an archaic layout that typewriters employed so you don't jam the keys by typing too fast. Since you can't really break your keyboard by typing too fast anymore, there really is no point of keeping QWERTY. I've been looking to change to a more efficient layout, but then that would mean reassigning keys from games, and that's just damn annoying.
Well not exactly to slow you down, it was because it jammed when you typed a bunch of keys that were close together so they changed it to spread out commonly used letters, but that amounts to about the same thing.
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My only issue would be gaming (SC2 hotkeys) ...
I might try this out for fun though 
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It's fun to learn, but don't kid yourself into thinking it's actually useful.
I learned Dvorak about 6 years ago, but I refused to give up qwerty so my typing in both layouts isn't as fast as they could be otherwise. I use both layouts on a regular basis (work computer in Dvorak, home computer with the Sholes/qwerty layout), and although the Dvorak layout is slightly more comfortable/efficient, I'd say that it isn't noticeable enough to be worth the effort.
Also, might as well mention Colemak as an alternative layout.
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United States7481 Posts
I use dvorak on my computer, and qwerty on any school computers I use. I am slightly faster on dvorak but the main benefit is definitely in comfort, it simply feels way better. As for gaming, some games support it natively (League of Legends just detects it and uses the ',.p as qwer), but for the others i have an easy hotkey set up to switch to qwerty.
I don't know if, starting now, I'd take the time to do it though. I did it one summer doing high school when I didn't have to type regularly, and now I have no such gap in my time where i can really do what's necessary to learn it.
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On April 23 2011 12:04 Soulish wrote:
In my opinion, Dvorak is completely useless unless your job is to retype something. Any decent typer can get 100 wpm+ with qwerty, which is more than enough. Sure, you may be able to type at 120 wpm with a dvorak layout, but can you think at 120 wpm? I type ~110 with qwerty, but when I'm typing out an essay or something I suspect it's somewhere closer to 50 wpm.
I don't know if this would be true for anyone else but personally I type essays around 100-120 wpm and still end up leaving out tons of words because I'm thinking much faster then I'm typing and end up just assuming I've already typed something that I didn't because my mind just moves on.
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On April 23 2011 12:13 251 wrote:
Qwerty is designed to slow you down? really? I type around 100-110 with qwerty.....I don't see a point. I mean the standard is Qwerty EEEVERRYYWHERERERERERE
It's not cause its standard its better. Qwerty got designed in 19th century so typewriters wouldnt get stuck.
Dvorak is pretty old too though. If I would switch then it would be to COLEMAK
I'll quote wiki for this :
Your fingers on QWERTY move 2.2x more than on Colemak. QWERTY has 16x more same hand row jumping than Colemak. There are 35x more words you can type using only the home row on Colemak.
Your fingers need to travel just a fraction of the that they do in QWERTY. On Dvorak your fingers move 10% more (30% more for a 4% error rate), and on QWERTY 102% more than Colemak (118% more for a 4% error rate).
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On April 23 2011 12:02 acker wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 11:54 Crazyeyes wrote:
How is it that QWERTY causes carpal tunnel, but Dvorak doesn't? Does this make sense? QWERTy is designed to make each finger move as far as possible to type common words and phrases. DVORAK is made to ensure minimal finger movement.
dvorak was a computer dude in Splinter Cell fyi.
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at first I was like why would anyone want something different than qwerty. But then I read the thread and the responses make sense. However I've been typing qwerty for about 16 years and I don't see myself changing anytime soon.
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On April 23 2011 11:01 Lorken wrote:
My friend convinced me earlier to switch to the Dvorak layout and I have been using it for a day now. I have simply changed my input language to Dvorak English and its quite fun learning to type all over again. I love how I cannot look at the keyboard and cheat. The thing about changing is that you will forget your qwerty and need to give Dvorak a lot of time.
NO, you won't forget Qwerty! You will need to readjust after few weeks of doing Dvorak-only (which is strongly recommended).
You'll have to readjust, but you don't have to relearn. Once you're comfortable with Dvorak, it's fairly easy to go back to being fluent at both (it's uncomfortable at first, but Qwerty muscle memory comes back very quickly, it's nothing like relearning). But you really should be comfortable with Dvorak before switching back, or it'll be very frustrating.
Or you can just type qwerty on any other computer. There's no reason at all to not know both if that is helpful to you.
If you haven't tried it, give it a go if you have time!
I was wondering how many people have tried this and what their experience with this is and what happened.
I was also wondering how hard it gets for gaming with this layout.
Works great for me, all my friends who decided voluntarily to switch agreed that it is much more comfortable and enjoyable to type in. (And they are using Dvorak now. I didn't ask them to, they just got curious after a while of mocking me, tried it, and ended up preferring it.)
Personally, I tried it because I had wrist pain at one point (caused by excessive keyboard/mouse use, and Dvorak did help). The wrist pain went away, but I realized that I just enjoyed typing much more with Dvorak. I didn't do it for speed, but I did notice that on those online typing tests, after ~3-4 weeks of Dvorak, I was up to Qwerty speed (which I touched-type for >5 years by then); after ~2 months of touch-typing Dvorak, I was 50% faster than I ever was with Qwerty. And that's without trying to optimize Dvorak for speed (I had tried to train speed a bit while typing Qwerty).
Can't recommend it enough. Most nay-sayers I've seen never tried it, and almost who seriously gave it a try -- not just trying for two days then complaining about how hard it is to learn (while they're not at all interested in learning) -- ended up liking and switching to it. And no, it's not an issue to type Qwerty later on. *Initially* you should stick to pure Dvorak if you can, it just makes learning much more pleasant. Once the muscle memory is in, switching layouts is entirely thought-free -- I do it automatically if the first two characters come out wrong, before I even realize consciously that I've switched. I still touch-type Qwerty plenty fast, a bit slower than before, but that's only because I use it rarely.
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Also, for all the people who say it's useless, that's bull.
The main benefit to me -- YMMV -- is *NOT* speed. It's the fact that it makes typing much more comfortable.
This may sound like a douchebag argument, and it's hard to explain if you've never tried it. Even if you don't have any RSI, it just feels nicer to type Dvorak because you're doing so many fewer awkward finger/hand movements, and fewer moving in general. If you spend a lot of time during the day typing, this is in my mind a no-brainer to try seriously -- if you honestly dislike it, after trying for a few days (probably easiest to do during holidays/extended weekend if you have a stressful job), you didn't lose much. If you do like it and find it to make typing more pleasant, you gain a lot for the rest of your life.
If you rarely ever touch-type, and you have no particular intellectual curiosity compelling you to learn Dvorak, there's no good argument why you should bother learning it. You don't touch-type often, so making it faster/more pleasant/whatever won't matter much.
But keep in mind, you don't need to type all that much to make it worthwhile: The learning cost is one-time, the time you make use of it accumulates in the future.
If you don't touch-type at all and would like to learn doing so, I strongly recommend Dvorak. It's so much faster to learn, I've seen this with several learners. http://dvorak.nl and other sites are very helpful.
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in terms of integrating to a new keyboard layout from QWERTY, colemak is more efficient because many shortcut keys commonly used in windows remain the same. also, over time people who use Dvorak say although its better than QWERTY, there is a pinky strain. so if you're thinking of a switch from qwerty, go colemak.
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i have been using the "NEO" layout for over a year now. It is a special layout designed for the german languga. you have "uaieo" (all vocals) on your left hand homerow and "snrtd" on the right homerow (most common consonants in german). you can type over 70000 german words on your homerow alone.
in addition to this the layout has some other great features: capslock is no longer capslock, but another modifier: capslock + j = (, capslock + k = ), etc., so it is perfect for programmers.
i don't type that much faster than with qwerty, especially when i type in english, but it is so much more comfortable, i love it 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout#Neo
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A gaming forum that supports a keyboard layout that makes "lol" 300% harder to type. What has the world come to.
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If I heed this thread, I'll have to learn dvorak, NEO and the F keyboard (designed to make typing turkish easier).
I guess I'll stick to qwerty for the time being.
Glad I can't speak french :D
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First thing that came to my head.
![[image loading]](http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/not_enough_work.png)
Source xkcd.com
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Im trying it now... jesus it's hard to do.. but I can definitely feel the simplicity of the way that it is set up. Gunna keep chuggin at it. If you guys want a nice site to practice on:
http://learn.dvorak.nl/
it's what i'm using.
-cLvPanda
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Honestly there is no point. What if by next year, they invent another keyboard layout that is even more efficient than dvorak? What if they discover that switching a and e increases your wpm by 20? There might be a reason to switch if qwerty layout suddenly goes extinct but I doubt it.
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Dammit I thought this was about the composer. Sad face.
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On April 23 2011 19:05 wxwx wrote:
Honestly there is no point. What if by next year, they invent another keyboard layout that is even more efficient than dvorak? What if they discover that switching a and e increases your wpm by 20? There might be a reason to switch if qwerty layout suddenly goes extinct but I doubt it.
The point of switching is because it's more fluid, easier, more efficient, and comfortable. This isn't a case of him creating a new layout to "stick it to the man." Have you ever just stared at your keyboard and analysed the Qwerty layout? It's horribly inefficient.
The Qwerty layout will probably never die simply because too many people are accustomed to it. Dvorak and Colemak may be better, but people don't want to make a switch simply because they don't want to change. To say there is no point is a little silly considering there are benefits to it. Whether or not they are significant enough for you is another question.
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Having switched to Colemak about three years ago, all I can say is that it's a matter of comfort. The speed can be attained in QWERTY as well as in Dvorak or Colemak, but the idea of hardly moving your fingers because the keys are more intelligently laid out is what really is appealing.
Every time I feel like playing SC2 or any other game I've got installed I boot up Win7 (I use Linux for all else) where I still use QWERTY. The first thing one notices is that the layout just feels... stupid.
Instead of having your hands comfortably parked at the home row as intended, I find I angle my hands, ready for keystrokes all over the place.
On April 23 2011 19:05 wxwx wrote:
Honestly there is no point. What if by next year, they invent another keyboard layout that is even more efficient than dvorak? What if they discover that switching a and e increases your wpm by 20? There might be a reason to switch if qwerty layout suddenly goes extinct but I doubt it.
A layout's effectiveness is just a question of which language you mostly type in and how the keys are positioned in relation to this. carpalx is a project that generates optimized keyboard layouts, using pure statistics to determine what key should be placed where.
There will be no "next year", the numbers have already been crunched.
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On April 23 2011 19:25 reprise wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 19:05 wxwx wrote:
Honestly there is no point. What if by next year, they invent another keyboard layout that is even more efficient than dvorak? What if they discover that switching a and e increases your wpm by 20? There might be a reason to switch if qwerty layout suddenly goes extinct but I doubt it. The point of switching is because it's more fluid, easier, more efficient, and comfortable. This isn't a case of him creating a new layout to "stick it to the man." Have you ever just stared at your keyboard and analysed the Qwerty layout? It's horribly inefficient. The Qwerty layout will probably never die simply because too many people are accustomed to it. Dvorak and Colemak may be better, but people don't want to make a switch simply because they don't want to change. To say there is no point is a little silly considering there are benefits to it. Whether or not they are significant enough for you is another question.
And you surely are happy to link to studies which back up your claims?
The only studies done on the Dvorak layout were done by dvorak himself, you can guess yourself what the conclusion of those was 
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On April 23 2011 12:13 Navillus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 11:37 The_LiNk wrote:On April 23 2011 11:13 Crazyeyes wrote:
I dont actually see the point, though. I mean, I'd like to think that my QWERTY typing skills are quite good now. Been able to type without looking since I was like 14, can type pretty quickly when I need to...
Why bother?
I guess in this case you seem to be doing it omre for fun, but I've read mnay times that eventually the DVORAK setup will be standard... QWERTY is designed to slow you down. It's an archaic layout that typewriters employed so you don't jam the keys by typing too fast. Since you can't really break your keyboard by typing too fast anymore, there really is no point of keeping QWERTY. I've been looking to change to a more efficient layout, but then that would mean reassigning keys from games, and that's just damn annoying. Well not exactly to slow you down, it was because it jammed when you typed a bunch of keys that were close together so they changed it to spread out commonly used letters, but that amounts to about the same thing.
That may have been the theory, but then why do we end up with a-s-e-r-t pretty much right next to each other and all in easy and natural distance for typing with just the left hand? I'm honestly curious, because I've not heard that explanation, and while I've messed with typewriters and it would seem to make sense, the actual layout doesn't fit with the explanation.
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Dvorak & qwerty are for noobs, colemak is where it's at
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Pretty sure the whole "QWERTY is terrible" thing is largely mythology and urband legend.
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Katowice25012 Posts
I've had a few friends who learned dvorak and they all eventually switched back to qwerty fully because of being annoyed at having to switch between how they typed at home and other places.
On April 23 2011 16:33 Antoine wrote:
I use dvorak on my computer, and qwerty on any school computers I use. I am slightly faster on dvorak but the main benefit is definitely in comfort, it simply feels way better. As for gaming, some games support it natively (League of Legends just detects it and uses the ',.p as qwer), but for the others i have an easy hotkey set up to switch to qwerty.
I don't know if, starting now, I'd take the time to do it though. I did it one summer doing high school when I didn't have to type regularly, and now I have no such gap in my time where i can really do what's necessary to learn it.
Having a gap in typing would probably be necessary for me too, but i'm pretty lazy so even then I don't know. Its interesting but I'll probably never try.
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I tried it out, but deemed it not worth the effort to switch, as I am so used to qwerty, and I can type plenty fast with it. It would take me minutes to type a little sentence. dvorak does make more sense though.
It's probably still in for the same reason we use the English measurement system. It is just to big of a pain to switch.
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![[image loading]](http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/well.png)
Alt text:
I'll concede ergonomics anecdotally, but none of the studies of Dvorak were at all rigorous (the most-cited Navy study was overseen by Dvorak himself). And the 'slow typists down' thing is a myth. Also EMACS RULES VI DROOLS WOOOOOOO!"
Either way, the cost of adoption... Is not worth switching - especially since the rest of the world will keep designing macros and shortcuts for QWERTY.
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Even though I've switched (typing this in dvorak), I did it for fun and to type faster. If you're looking for efficiency, why not learn a constructed language? They're 'more efficient' than real languages.
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United States7481 Posts
On April 24 2011 03:09 youngminii wrote:
Even though I've switched (typing this in dvorak), I did it for fun and to type faster. If you're looking for efficiency, why not learn a constructed language? They're 'more efficient' than real languages.
not really the same there, for language to be effective other people need to know it too. for keyboard layout, you could be the only one in the world and not lose anything.
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On April 23 2011 16:33 Antoine wrote:
I use dvorak on my computer, and qwerty on any school computers I use. I am slightly faster on dvorak but the main benefit is definitely in comfort, it simply feels way better. As for gaming, some games support it natively (League of Legends just detects it and uses the ',.p as qwer), but for the others i have an easy hotkey set up to switch to qwerty.
I don't know if, starting now, I'd take the time to do it though. I did it one summer doing high school when I didn't have to type regularly, and now I have no such gap in my time where i can really do what's necessary to learn it.
Isn't it very hard switching back and forth? I've had thoughts on switching for some time, but I'm afraid if I use DVORAK I will ruin my qwerty typing skills and won't be able to use any computer other than my own.
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United States5162 Posts
On April 24 2011 03:13 Antoine wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 03:09 youngminii wrote:
Even though I've switched (typing this in dvorak), I did it for fun and to type faster. If you're looking for efficiency, why not learn a constructed language? They're 'more efficient' than real languages. not really the same there, for language to be effective other people need to know it too. for keyboard layout, you could be the only one in the world and not lose anything.
It's clearly not the same, but what happens when you need to use a different computer?
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How wanky is it setting up Ctrl-C/Ctrl-X/Ctrl-V and other standard system hotkeys on Dvorak though?
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I don't know if I believe all the claims, I've seen a lot of studies that ended inconclusive so I would be careful buying into the hype of dvorak. One of the claims were that it takes a month to get back up to your qwerty speed, if not faster, which I tried and got to about half speed and decided that practically there's not much use to it since nothing else uses it.
The other problem is that a lot of games have qwerty built into your computer regardless of which format you setup on your own computer through the language settings so it got to be a bit useless to try and use dvorak when you load up your favorite game, start typing, and it goes back to qwerty.
That and keybindings become your new hell.
I switched to dvorak on my computer for a solid month and really gave it a good go and got up to 40 wpm when I type 80ish on qwerty. All in all, not worth it imho.
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On April 24 2011 03:20 stafu wrote:
How wanky is it setting up Ctrl-C/Ctrl-X/Ctrl-V and other standard system hotkeys on Dvorak though?
I've just gotten used to what those all have turned into-- Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V turns into Ctrl-I/Ctrl-. which is not that bad at all-- Ctrl-w turns into Ctrl-, which actually feels much better than Ctrl-w imo.
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Starting at page 8:
The QWERTY design is reputed to be far inferior to the "scientifically" designed Dvorak keyboard, which allegedly offered a 40 percent increase in typing speed. Supposedly, the Navy conducted experiments during World War II demonstrating that the costs of retraining typists on the new keyboard could be fully recovered within 10 days. The story is claimed to validate path dependence: no typists learn Dvorak because too many others use QWERTY, which increases the value of QWERTY all the more.
That is an ideal example because the number of dimensions of performance is small, and in those dimensions, the Dvorak keyboard appears overwhelmingly superior. Yet upon investigation, the story appears to be based on nothing more than wishful thinking and a shoddy reading of the history of the typewriter keyboard. The QWERTY keyboard, it turns out, is about as good a design as the Dvorak keyboard and was better than most competing designs that existed in the late 1800s when there were many keyboard designs maneuvering for a place in the market.
Ignored in the stories of Dvorak's superiority is a carefully controlled experiment conducted under the auspices of the General Services Administration in the 1950s comparing QWERTY with Dvorak. That experiment contradicted the claims made by advocates of Dvorak and concluded that retraining typists on the Dvorak keyboard made no sense. Modern research in ergonomics also finds little advantage in the Dvorak keyboard layout, confirming the results of the GSA study.
So on what bases were the claims of Dvorak's superiority made? Critical examination shows that most, if not all, of the claims of Dvorak's superiority can be traced to the patent owner, August Dvorak. His book on the relative merits of QWERTY and his own keyboard is about as objective as a television infomercial. The wartime Navy study turns out to have been conducted under the auspices of the Navy's chief expert in time-motion studies--Lt. Comdr. August Dvorak--and the results of that study were clearly fudged. There is far more to the story, but it all leads to the conclusion that the QWERTY story qualifies as no better than a convenient myth.
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa324b.pdf
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The only way anything other than QWERTY will ever be mainstream is if the entire world decides to start using it at the same time. I'd love to learn a new style, but there's too many cons and a few pros.
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How come so many people are against it? I've gotten most of it now I think but it's slow and I haven't been able to talk to my friends as much as I like. Being high probably doesn't help too. I want to be able to go lol lol look at me my e-balls sag to the floor because I learnt Dvorak in x days : D
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On April 24 2011 02:06 Starfox wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 19:25 reprise wrote:On April 23 2011 19:05 wxwx wrote:
Honestly there is no point. What if by next year, they invent another keyboard layout that is even more efficient than dvorak? What if they discover that switching a and e increases your wpm by 20? There might be a reason to switch if qwerty layout suddenly goes extinct but I doubt it. The point of switching is because it's more fluid, easier, more efficient, and comfortable. This isn't a case of him creating a new layout to "stick it to the man." Have you ever just stared at your keyboard and analysed the Qwerty layout? It's horribly inefficient. The Qwerty layout will probably never die simply because too many people are accustomed to it. Dvorak and Colemak may be better, but people don't want to make a switch simply because they don't want to change. To say there is no point is a little silly considering there are benefits to it. Whether or not they are significant enough for you is another question. And you surely are happy to link to studies which back up your claims? The only studies done on the Dvorak layout were done by dvorak himself, you can guess yourself what the conclusion of those was
I would love to be able to link anything for either side of the argument but there really isn't any sound conclusions for either argument other than anecdotal evidence. All I have to base my opinion on are the many people who would personally vouch for Dvorak's ergonomic benefits. I've never commented on its speed in relation to Qwerty as I feel that could be questionable, and is a different argument altogether.
I myself have contemplated switching to Dvorak or Colemak out of sheer curiosity but I simply don't type as often as my friends do. Also, juggling different layouts between home, school, and work would be a major bitch.
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United States7481 Posts
On April 24 2011 03:15 hifriend wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 16:33 Antoine wrote:
I use dvorak on my computer, and qwerty on any school computers I use. I am slightly faster on dvorak but the main benefit is definitely in comfort, it simply feels way better. As for gaming, some games support it natively (League of Legends just detects it and uses the ',.p as qwer), but for the others i have an easy hotkey set up to switch to qwerty.
I don't know if, starting now, I'd take the time to do it though. I did it one summer doing high school when I didn't have to type regularly, and now I have no such gap in my time where i can really do what's necessary to learn it. Isn't it very hard switching back and forth? I've had thoughts on switching for some time, but I'm afraid if I use DVORAK I will ruin my qwerty typing skills and won't be able to use any computer other than my own.
it's fairly trivial to switch back to QWERTY. I would say i started out at 95 wpm on qwerty, now i type about 110 on dvorak and 90 on qwerty, simply due to a lack of practice. it's no huge deal going back when i'm on a school computer though, I just automatically type in qwerty when a keyboard feels different from my home one.
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Cracked is not a reliable source 
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa324b.pdf
This fits with what my general understanding has been.
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On April 24 2011 02:22 Craton wrote:
Pretty sure the whole "QWERTY is terrible" thing is largely mythology and urband legend.
Alot of people just hate stuff because it's popular
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On April 24 2011 03:15 hifriend wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 16:33 Antoine wrote:
I use dvorak on my computer, and qwerty on any school computers I use. I am slightly faster on dvorak but the main benefit is definitely in comfort, it simply feels way better. As for gaming, some games support it natively (League of Legends just detects it and uses the ',.p as qwer), but for the others i have an easy hotkey set up to switch to qwerty.
I don't know if, starting now, I'd take the time to do it though. I did it one summer doing high school when I didn't have to type regularly, and now I have no such gap in my time where i can really do what's necessary to learn it. Isn't it very hard switching back and forth? I've had thoughts on switching for some time, but I'm afraid if I use DVORAK I will ruin my qwerty typing skills and won't be able to use any computer other than my own.
No, it's not very hard to switch back and forth. It's actually very easy.
*BUT* you do need to learn Dvorak properly first, which is much easier if you can afford to not switch back and forth too often for a while. Once the muscle memory sits in, switching back and forth is pretty trivial -- I don't know anyone who switched back once they were settled with Dvorak, but I do know people -- including myself, at first -- who gave up on Dvorak when they didn't have enough time to learn it. (My first attempt was during a period where I had many reports to type -- not a good idea.)
Once you're comfortable with Dvorak (I'd say give it two weeks, perhaps a month or so tops), switching back and forth is painful for the first two or so days, but then you'll get your Qwerty muscle memory back if you actually need to type it every now and then. I probably have ~90WPM Qwerty now, which I rarely type much (just to log in and in-game sometimes), down from a previous ~110WPM.
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On April 24 2011 19:04 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 02:22 Craton wrote:
Pretty sure the whole "QWERTY is terrible" thing is largely mythology and urband legend. Alot of people just hate stuff because it's popular
Pretty sure the whole "QWERTY is great" thing is largely mythology and urban legend.
A lot of people just love stuff because it's popular.
See what I did there?
Note that pretty much all people who use Dvorak and recommend it on this thread have learned both. Most people who are skeptical on this thread have never seriously tried Dvorak. Yes, learning something takes time, but such is life.
The proponents are not saying that it is good because some study said so -- so refuting said study does nothing to invalidate their point. The old studies in favor of Dvorak have been suspect, I agree.
I've met quite many people who've switched to Dvorak by now (many through work), and the overwhelming majority find it to be more comfortable and efficient to use once you've learned it. I also know one guy who learned it and didn't care for either layout, so YMMV.
Several people who learned it (me included) did so to reduce RSI-related symptoms, and it works well for that, but even after my wrist problems subsided I find it much more comfortable to use in general.
If you don't want to learn it, nobody's got any beef against you, but saying things like "alot [sic] of people just hate stuff because it's popular" contributes nothing at all to this thread. If you've
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Note that pretty much all people who use Dvorak and recommend it on this thread have learned both. Most people who are skeptical on this thread have never seriously tried Dvorak.
That's true. However, that doesn't constitute objective evidence. There's sunk-costs; people will tend to view things favorably that they have invested time in, even if they are objectively not better.
Personally, I won't learn DVORAK for the same reason I won't switch to Chrome.
I'd used Internet Explorer since the 3.0 days. I switched to Firefox 1.something-or-other, because IE6 was absolutely atrocious at web-standards and security, and Microsoft clearly had no intention of rectifying that in the immediate future. I've been using FF ever since then.
I can certainly accept that Chrome is objectively better than FF in certain ways. But the simple fact is this: I do not care that much. Firefox doesn't suck nearly enough compared to Chrome to make the switch worthwhile. Familiarity is far more important to me than startup-time. It may only take me a month or so to grow into a new browser, but that's a month during which time I'm being constantly annoyed by my browser. Will I gain something by it? Yes. Will I gain enough to be worth the effort? No.
And that's how I feel about QWERTY vs. DVORAK. I accept that QWERTY is not necessarily the most efficient key layout. But it's a key layout that I understand and am proficient at. The month+ of time (my muscle memory sucks) it will take to readjust to DVORAK will not be worth the gains from using what may be a better key layout.
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On April 24 2011 19:43 NicolBolas wrote:
Will I gain enough to be worth the effort? No.
How would you know without trying though?
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On April 24 2011 19:43 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +Note that pretty much all people who use Dvorak and recommend it on this thread have learned both. Most people who are skeptical on this thread have never seriously tried Dvorak. That's true. However, that doesn't constitute objective evidence. There's sunk-costs; people will tend to view things favorably that they have invested time in, even if they are objectively not better.
It may not be objective but it does have some merit. There haven't been any highly reputable studies (if you wish to disregard the one done by the Navy) to conclusively determine one being superior over the other, so anecdotal evidence will have to do.
You could take the informed opinion and disregard it, but then I could just as easily take any negative opinion and ignore it as it also isn't completely objective. It's best simply acknowledge the informed opinion, but with a grain of salt if you wish.
For many, their life may in some form, revolve around the Qwerty. To give up ease for a minimal gain in efficiency and speed simply isn't worth it, especially if ergonomics and comfort is a nonfactor.
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I switched to Dvorak a few summers ago. I still use it, and am, in fact, typing this post in it... so I know a little bit about this topic.
I find Dvorak far superior to the QWERTY in many aspects. It is far more comfortable, and I'm actually faster with it ^.^ I used to type 50-60 wpm with QWERTY but now I type 60-65 with Dvorak. In addition, I now touch-type, without needing to look at the keyboard at all. You see, my keyboard is still a QWERTY, it is just remapped to Dvorak in the control panel. So if I were to look at the keys, it would just tell me the wrong key. Thus, I was forced to learn without looking at the keys, which is very very useful now.
The first week was brutal, as I had a printed out Dvorak chart next to me while I typed. I was under 10 wpm. But by the end of the first month I had gotten the hang of it and was 30-40 wpm. My wpm has consistently increased since then, and I wouldn't be surprised if I break 70 soon. EDIT: Just took a typing test online... 72 wpm
The only time I don't use Dvorak is when I'm gaming. This is because hotkeys are easier to learn if I can see the actual key that I'm pressing, and also, I'm too lazy to re-map and try to memorize new hotkeys... but it could be done.
On a side note, due to the fact that my school's computers are locked in QWERTY, I can also touch type in QWERTY, probably achieving 40-50 wpm. So while I type slower at school, I can still type at an average speed, and touch type. But at home I can type pretty fast while touch typing.
I like Dvorak and I'm happy I switched. It should take about a month to get used to it but it's not that hard. I'd do it if i were you
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I'd use Dvorak if I was a starter and \ or I was a professional typist, meaning I write ALOT.
Now I only do some mails and I've known how to type touch in QWERTY since I was about 12 so this old dog isn't learning any new tricks :q (27)
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Thanks to those people who have switched and are giving feedback. It's really encouraging. I only used about 3 fingers when touch typing so it is quite challenging trying to type with all my fingers. I guess nothing changes very quickly, a tonne of weirdos like us do it first. I don't need to look at the layout now so that's an improvement. I am about 11 lessons into http://gigliwood.com/abcd/ and it has been very useful.
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Interesting, I didn't use any typing tutors, as I found typing the same letters over and over boring and repetitive. I learned by just Instant Messaging with my friend (who understood that I was using Dvorak, so he didn't get annoyed by my extremely slow response time at first). After you get the feel of where most of the keys are, it really does get easier. I'm sure you'll get the hang of it in no time.
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Hm, I'm sort of interested in this but not entirely sure I understand all the benefits.
I mean, I've read the thread, and understand it's primary benefit seems to be comfort, however I can't say I've ever been typing (using qwerty) and felt uncomfortable? I type a ton, often for many many hours at a time, and have never once felt any sort of discomfort. Could someone please elaborate upon this for me? Or is it just something some people don't experience?
As far as speed is concerned, is there any sort of actual hard evidence comparison that you type faster using Dvorak? It seems like I always just hear the 'qwerty is made to slow you down' thing and that's the end of the expalnation. I'm not entirely sure it's a good standard to look at, but is there any sort of 'fastest typers in the world' comparison between dvorak and qwerty? How do the fastest qwerty typers compare to the fastest dvorak typers?
The most useful posts here seem to be from the people that have actually ventured to learn both, thanks for those! Hopefully someone can help elaborate upon the comfort/speed thing for me. I don't necessarily plan on switching or anything, but I'm quite curious about it.
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The fastest typer in the world was Barbara Blackburn who used a Dvorak keyboard to achieve 212 wpm at her very max ^.^ (she could consistently type 150 wpm... for 50 minutes straight).
As far as comfort goes, I wouldn't necessarily say QWERTY has a lack of comfort, as much as I would say that Dvorak has more noticeable comfort. This is mainly because you move your fingers about half as much as you do with QWERTY, and your wrists pretty much don't move at all. I feel almost as if the words type themselves, an experience I never felt with QWERTY.
There aren't any reliable studies to show that Dvorak increases typing speed. I honestly think it's effects vary on a person-to-person basis. Some people already type so fast with QWERTY (I'm talking 80-100 wpm) that even if they learned Dvorak to the degree that they knew QWERTY, I doubt it would have a huge effect on their wpm, as your hands can only move so fast. On the other hand, people like me, who had 50-60 wpm have a lot of room to improve, and Dvorak may be able to help more.
Another factor is how well you initially "learned" QWERTY. I could never touch type with QWERTY, as I never had the discipline to never look at the keyboard. I knew the general position of all the keys, so I would just glance in the area of the key I needed and find it. Because I never even had this solid foundation with QWERTY to begin with, I decided it'd be best to just scrap it and relearn typing from the ground up, using Dvorak instead.
So, if you already have solid typing mechanics with QWERTY, I really see no reason to switch. But if you were like me, and your mechanics are sloppy, remapping your keyboard to Dvorak forces you to learn to type using perfect mechanics, as you have no accurate key labels to look at. And it just so happens, that you will be relearning using a more efficient layout
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Unless you really want to be cool, or just have a ton of time for it, it's not really worth it. I definitely noticed an improvement in comfort, and my mechanics are better on Dvorak, but it really is a decent chunk of time. The problem is you can't really switch back and forth when you're learning, so the first couple weeks you can barely type anything at all. For a lot of people, that's just too much of an investment. In terms of typing speed, it really is negligible, and I doubt you can find any hard evidence to prove either way.
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I used to be able to type in Dvorak, but eventually I realized that every other computer I would ever use besides my own would be in QWERTY so I just switched back. Some people I know prefer to be able to type well in both, but to me I just see it as pointless given that I have over 100 wpm in qwerty.
It kinda seems similar to being able to speak Esperanto or Latin to me... good if you're getting a doctorate in languages or something, but not much else But to each their own.
For the record, I noticed no significant speed upgrade in my typing when I was typing in Dvorak, and I've been able to touch type since when I first started using computers (8 or so). Although I did have a lot of fun rearranging keyboards in my highschool computer labs into Dvorak layout probably the best thing I gained out of learning it. There's this look of horror that comes across a peck and hunt typer's face when they realize that the keyboard is completely rearranged...
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I feel the need to revive this topic because it lacked some analysis and died with a lot of conjecture. I have been proficient at the QWERTY layout since I was a child and consistently achieved typing speeds over 100 wpm. I know that is nothing stellar, but it is far faster than the average typist. A little less than a year ago, after using QWERTY for my entire life, I began writing my thesis. Within 2 weeks of near non-stop typing I developed a crippling carpal tunnel flare-up (it had fleeting appearances for years). I decided to use this opportunity to attempt a hard switch over to Dvorak per recommendation from one of my friends. I typed about half of my thesis on QWERTY and the other half on Dvorak. I quickly learned the only thing that is easier to type on a QWERTY keyboard is the word “QWERTY” itself and my carpal tunnel did not have another flare-up while typing.
I mainly want to address
On April 24 2011 02:22 Craton wrote:
Pretty sure the whole "QWERTY is terrible" thing is largely mythology and urband legend.
As well as the misconceptions about the benefits of Dvorak.
In my personal experience, I gained no tangible typing speed benefits by switching over to Dvorak—with the exception lying in long sentences consisting of a lot of “the that their” and other simple words, which I can peak at over 150-170wpm on Dvorak. It appears the main advantage is that I am now able to type at “cruise speeds” for a much longer stretch than with QWERTY. Additionally, I no longer have the stout burn in my forearms following a 3min typing speed test.
This is about enough of my anecdotal evidence. I copy/paste my 104-page thesis into a great typing analyzer found here: http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/ and these are the results. Also, this document contained MANY special characters and unusual words; this needs to be considered, as it actually skews the results in favor of QWERTY because the simplified keyboard layouts are optimized for common letter combinations. I decided to include Colemak due to several mentions in this thread as well as its improved practicality with use in Windows. I may add the images of the graphs later. I am behind an Imgur-unfriendly firewall at the moment.
Overall Travel Distance of the Fingers:
+ Show Spoiler +QWERTY: 4347.2 Meters
Dvorak: 2999.9 Meters
Colemak: 2808.6 Meters
Here we can see the massive difference Dvorak or Colemak will make over a lengthy period of typing. The graph (I will likely post later) for QWERTY is atrocious. The QWERTY distances traveled by the fingers of the left hand (weaker hand of most people) far outweigh the distances of the right. Dvorak and Colemak are the reverse of this.
Repetitive stress injuries could be aggravated by increased use. Increased use is bad. QWERTY increases use (distance traveled) of nearly every finger; therefor one could make the logical leap that QWERTY is a bad layout to use if you have repetitive stress injuries.
Other Categories:
+ Show Spoiler +Home Row Usage (the easiest row to use):
QWERTY: 24.7%
Dvorak: 50.0%
Colemak: 52.7%
Top Row Usage:
QWERTY: 35.7%
Dvorak: 19.7%
Colemak: 13.0%
Bottom Row Usage (most difficult row associated with longest response delay):
QWERTY: 20.9%
Dvorak: 11.9%
Colemak: 15.6%
Consecutive Finger Use (one finger used in succession-same letter presses excluded):
QWERTY: 5.8%
Dvorak: 2.8%
Colemak: 1.9%
Consecutive Hand and Thumb Use (how often a hand types more than one letter-same letter presses excluded):
QWERTY: 31.4% (HOLY !@#$)
Dvorak: 18.0%
Colemak: 27.1% (still kinda bad)
Conclusion:
+ Show Spoiler +QWERTY appears to be outperformed in every “stress” category. I cannot make claims that Dvorak or Colemak will make you a faster typist, but I can support the claim that it will impose less stress on you if you are a typist—and it can even help ease your repetitive stress injuries as it did mine. If you do not type much, making a switch will likely not benefit you at all.
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Here is an interesting read on the subject, from Reason.com:
http://reason.com/archives/1996/06/01/typing-errors/3
The article basically demolishes the arguments that QWERTY won by luck or by being the first mover, as well as taking to task the assumptions that Dvorak is highly superior
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^^ This post really did nothing but reaffirm my bold statement. The article listed a few studies that compared speeds only. It did not involve incidence of repetitive stress injuries with either layout with long term use, nor did it disclose fully the methods used in the studies. I realize that these types of studies would be incredibly difficult to standardize and control, but that is something that needs to be acknowledged on both ends. "Financial stake" is also not an argument, as it applies to everyone and not just to Dvorak.
Here are the logical connections I am making: excessive finger movement aggravates repetitive stress injury, therefor QWERTY is bad because it maximizes finger travel into absurdity.
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On May 09 2013 06:34 GeneralStan wrote:Here is an interesting read on the subject, from Reason.com: http://reason.com/archives/1996/06/01/typing-errors/3The article basically demolishes the arguments that QWERTY won by luck or by being the first mover, as well as taking to task the assumptions that Dvorak is highly superior
The first study on the page you linked is horrible. How is that guy a scientist?
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I switched to colemak about a year ago. I'm up to 100+wpm, my peak with QWERTY was ~120. Colemak is probably the best for reduced stress as it's designed specifically for reduced finger movement. Most functional keys remain the same so you don't have to relearn ctrl+c/v etc.
You can't expect faster speeds with any layout vs one you've been using your whole life unless you commit a substantial amount of time to it. I switched due to hand a wrist pain, and since I've had a much more comfortable experience when typing. My QWERTY speed has dropped significantly, ~80wpm, so I try to never use it. I take a portable version of colemak with me to school so I can use it there when writing papers, etc.
Imagine the speeds you could hit training on Dvorak/QWERTY from the start. We all learn QWERTY growing up so switching becomes bothersome. It's really unfortunate that we don't teach kids a healthier method of typing.
I think it would be interesting to try some of the really crazy configurations available. I did quite a bit of looking into them when deciding what to switch to. Part of the draw to Colemak is that it keeps in mind people coming from QWERTY and leaves the most common shortcuts as is, making it just a little easier to learn. Maybe I'll switch to something full blown in the future, I don't know
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EPT
