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Please guys, stay on topic. This thread is about the situation in Iraq and Syria. | ||
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Soleron
United Kingdom1324 Posts
On February 06 2012 09:36 Aurocaido wrote: At the very same time the United States ramps up weapon sales to Saudia Arabia, Bahrain, Yemen, and Qatar. What a joke. They are not using the weapons to kill hundreds of noncombatants on live TV. Doesn't make them right, but the US aren't hypocritical to say no to Syria and yes to the others. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
On February 06 2012 09:36 Aurocaido wrote: At the very same time the United States ramps up weapon sales to Saudia Arabia, Bahrain, Yemen, and Qatar. What a joke. Of course it is a deadly game of checks and balances, concerning Al-Qaeda and Iran. Saudi Arabia is no friend of Iran while Yemen is battling a Al-Qaeda insurgency. While Qatar is in the region, relatively peaceful, and secretly funnels cash, training, and weapons to combat Iran supported Governments and Al-Qaeda. | ||
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Aurocaido
Canada288 Posts
On February 06 2012 09:34 Soleron wrote: It's actually about stopping the violence. For good or bad reasons; US wants it off TV because it's making them look bad; US, Saudi and Qatar all want it stopped because it threatens regional stability and hence oil supply. They actually wouldn't care if Assad was a dictator as long as he wasn't shelling his own cities. The US is fine with Saudi existing as bad as it is because it is stable. Coincidentally, these interests happen to align with the right thing to do (some kind of action, not necessarily invasion). If Yemen/Bahrain/etc were literally driving tanks into places and killing civilians on that scale I'm certain the same people would have brought up the UN resolution. Again for their own interests as described above. -- The UN resolution did not advocate invasion. Why are people claiming it's "support Russia's position, or else have the US invade". Russia should sign this one and block any one that goes further. The Libya resolution was to impose a no fly zone, it went much further than that. Why would the same not happen in Syria? What reasons do countries not in the inner circle of the United States have to believe otherwise? The United States does not want to intervene for altuistic reasons sorry. Ultruism sadly has no place in international relations and never has. This resolution is about self interest and nothing more. Here let me fix a sentence for you. "They actually wouldn't care if Assad was a dictator as long as he was a loyal ally of the United States." | ||
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Skilledblob
Germany3392 Posts
On February 06 2012 09:37 Soleron wrote: They are not using the weapons to kill hundreds of noncombatants on live TV. Doesn't make them right, but the US aren't hypocritical to say no to Syria and yes to the others. maybe you missed the protests in Bahrain when Bahraini and Saudi soldiers killed quite a lot of peaceful protesters. Same in Yemen where the government shot protesters | ||
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On February 06 2012 09:42 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Of course it is a deadly game of checks and balances, concerning Al-Qaeda and Iran. Saudi Arabia is no friend of Iran while Yemen is battling a Al-Qaeda insurgency. While Qatar is in the region, relatively peaceful, and secretly funnels cash, training, and weapons to combat Iran supported Governments and Al-Qaeda. Checks and balances ? Are you serious ? How naive do you have to be to believe that after a certain point it doesnt make any difference how many more weapons, jets bombers whatevers US allies have, they can wipe the floor with anyone, not to mention they have 0 technical ability and expats run the show anyway.Example the entire Saudi ministry of interior logistics is managed by my friends dad, no one enters or leaves the country without him knowing about it. His bosses are absolutely clueless, royal family and all. Hes been there for 20 years now and the best part is when he retires hell be told to leave. Its just a matter of recycling petrodollars always has been. Its not like the US actually "manufactures" anything else worth exporting. | ||
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SerpentFlame
415 Posts
On February 06 2012 09:47 Skilledblob wrote: maybe you missed the protests in Bahrain when Bahraini and Saudi soldiers killed quite a lot of peaceful protesters. Same in Yemen where the government shot protesters But there is a difference. In Egypt and Libya, the Western powers didn't get involved until it became clear that Mubarak and Gaddafi were hanging on to their power by a thread. Syria is in a similarly precarious position. Saudi Arabia and Qatar, not so much. This is only part of the picture of course. Self-interest does have a large part to play though. The funds to Yemen and Saudi Arabia are primarily for anti-terrorist assistance. | ||
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Aurocaido
Canada288 Posts
On February 06 2012 10:15 SerpentFlame wrote: But there is a difference. In Egypt and Libya, the Western powers didn't get involved until it became clear that Mubarak and Gaddafi were hanging on to their power by a thread. Syria is in a similarly precarious position. Saudi Arabia and Qatar, not so much. This is only part of the picture of course. Self-interest does have a large part to play though. The funds to Yemen and Saudi Arabia are primarily for anti-terrorist assistance. Gaddafi was hanging on to power by a thread? Then why did it take over eight months of non stop NATO bombing and military assistance to finally bring the Jamahiriya to its knees? Assad is not in trouble, in fact it is the opposite. The opposition is losing and it is for this reason that the resolution is now being pushed so feverishly in the UNSC. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
On February 06 2012 09:57 Rebs wrote: Checks and balances ? Are you serious ? How naive do you have to be to believe that after a certain point it doesnt make any difference how many more weapons, jets bombers whatevers US allies have, they can wipe the floor with anyone, not to mention they have 0 technical ability and expats run the show anyway.Example the entire Saudi ministry of interior logistics is managed by my friends dad, no one enters or leaves the country without him knowing about it. His bosses are absolutely clueless, royal family and all. Hes been there for 20 years now and the best part is when he retires hell be told to leave. Its just a matter of recycling petrodollars always has been. Its not like the US actually "manufactures" anything else worth exporting. Again it is about self interests do you do nothing while your enemy arms others against you and your allies? Of course not. Also the last thing any nation wants is a major war, in this case could easily lead to WWIII. | ||
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
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Karliath
United States2214 Posts
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Elroi
Sweden5594 Posts
On February 06 2012 11:18 Karliath wrote: I'm sorry to just butt in here without reading the thread, but fucking hell, I just saw the new video where a boy is missing half his face (lower jaw is completely gone). Purportedly, Assad's fucked up army members cut it off. I can't comment on the veracity of that claim, but fucking hell man....this needs to stop. There has been many cases torture of children and things that are so horrific that I can't even get my self to talk about them. I hope the same happens to Assad. | ||
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diplomatten
United States43 Posts
Relating back to this weird game nobody plays  - if you win the early game, you may go into the midgame with the attitude of "I'm ahead." Then you lose a battle badly, your army is gone and his remains. Sometimes it can be difficult to make that mental shift to "I'm behind." No matter what got you to this point, the status can change at any time.This is true in Syria. Whatever you think of Assad pre-revolution, the full-blown civil war can only result in further death. If there is a way for a few surgical strikes to end this, it seems like allowing them is a no-brainer. If the US (or any country) is offering to do that, they ought to be allowed to. It is reasonable to assume that however many people America kills, it will be fewer than what Assad and the rebels will collectively kill over the same period of time. If the Arab League is willing to help out, or China or Russia, they should be allowed to. To the question of motives - whatever the motives, allowing productive citizens (who in some cases work in oil wells!) to die violently and tear apart the economy of Syria and its trading partners is unproductive. To me, the fastest, least-bloody end to this war must be the correct answer. | ||
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rEpulse
United States77 Posts
REMOVED | ||
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Karliath
United States2214 Posts
On February 06 2012 11:56 rEpulse wrote: Here is a video of whats going on in Syria ((( WARNING GRAPHIC ))).... REMOVED I didn't want to link the video, but, well, there it is. I'm sure that this incident is not unique whatsoever, even outside of Syria or the ME, but it doesn't make it any more tolerable. This needs to be stopped. | ||
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.ImpacT.
United States390 Posts
On February 06 2012 12:04 Karliath wrote: I didn't want to link the video, but, well, there it is. I'm sure that this incident is not unique whatsoever, even outside of Syria or the ME, but it doesn't make it any more tolerable. This needs to be stopped. Agreed. That's just........inhumane doesn't even BEGIN to describe it. That's one of the most horrifying/terrible things I've ever watched. The people that do things like that deserve the worst punishment imaginable. | ||
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TotalBalanceSC2
Canada475 Posts
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.ImpacT.
United States390 Posts
On February 06 2012 12:14 TotalBalanceSC2 wrote: Well that video was.... I really do not know. I have not really been following the Syrian situation but could someone enlighten me as to why there is a person missing his jaw? It was cut off. (ASSUMPTION ->) Probably for torture or something along those lines. | ||
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Karliath
United States2214 Posts
On February 06 2012 12:14 TotalBalanceSC2 wrote: Well that video was.... I really do not know. I have not really been following the Syrian situation but could someone enlighten me as to why there is a person missing his jaw? The authoritarian Assad regime has been ruling Syria for some time now. They torture, kill, etc., their political opposition to stay in control. In light of the recent protests, Hafez al-Assad has declared that the revolts are sponsored by foreign countries seeking to usurp control of the country. Therefore, his violent methods against the protestors are justified, in the defense of Syria's independence. The country's army commits acts of violence in order to stop and spread terror amongst those who would fight against the government. | ||
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forgottendreams
United States1771 Posts
On February 06 2012 11:13 Rebs wrote: Again, my point is that whatever weapons they have already are so overwhelmingly beyond anything they could need, this kind of overkill is about self interest absolutely, but its still overkill. And this is the kind of fear mongering thats so wrong, WWIII, please there have been greater cases of instigatory behavior as early as 20 odd years ago. And it was such a rout, at this point now it would be a joke. Not a soldier will need to lift a finger if its full on war. They probably will, but they wont have to. You are so powerful right now no one could do shit, no one will fight World Wars, there will be no "war" only a very very handy thrashing of anyone who goes up against the power that be front on. And they know this, hence the guerilla shit. But feel free to believe there is some kind "imminent danger". I live on American soil, I think its perfectly safe here and I really hope the focus shifts ever so slightly to fixing things at home. Of course their won't be a WIII anytime soon, if ever. It doesn't mean however the eternal game of proxy wars is done, in fact it's just starting to get very hot again in Africa and the Middle East due to some fast rising nations. The chess game may have taken a momentary break during 1992 but ever since then the moves have continued to become increasingly complex and more intense. In foreign policy "imminent dangers" can be alot of things and lead to long term consequences, a simple pawn move that gives up one square can be the focus of attack for the rest of the game. | ||
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zalz
Netherlands3704 Posts
On February 06 2012 11:18 Karliath wrote: I'm sorry to just butt in here without reading the thread, but fucking hell, I just saw the new video where a boy is missing half his face (lower jaw is completely gone). Purportedly, Assad's fucked up army members cut it off. I can't comment on the veracity of that claim, but fucking hell man....this needs to stop. http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/02/03/syria-stop-torture-children Read it, read all of it. Some people even think that calling a hitler greeting, swastika using, totaliarian regime "one of the worst" is propaganda. It's taking it too far. I don't know what words they feel are more fitting for a regime that tortures children. Sovereignty, they exclaim. Internal matters, they exclaim. I disregard it all. No government that kills its own people on such a scale keeps its sovereignty. People bring in other cases like Saudi-Arabia, Qatar or Bahrain and say, there was no intervention here, so why should there be on there? Is that what you would tell these Syrian people? Put your shackles back on, because your neighbours are slaves. Then, when the people of Bahrain rise up again, you can tell them to put on their shackles, because in Syria they wear them with a smile on their face, so why not you? I don't ascribe to any totalitarian regime. Democracy and freedom of speech are the two basic things that must exist in any nation. Any government that violates those basic two is not a real government. It's not a representative of the people, simply a bunch of thugs with the most guns. Whenever one of these horrible regimes opens itself to a possible collapse, we should embrace it. Politics might not always allow us to do the right thing, but in the case of Syria it most certainly can. They should have done the same thing as in Libya. It was an incredible succes. | ||
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