Iraq & Syrian Civil Wars - Page 133
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Please guys, stay on topic. This thread is about the situation in Iraq and Syria. | ||
Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
How expensive is sarin? Is it something that a makeshift army could potentially make and deploy? | ||
zeo
Serbia6298 Posts
On September 09 2013 02:31 LegalLord wrote: I'll ask here because I seem to come up dry when searching the internet: How expensive is sarin? Is it something that a makeshift army could potentially make and deploy? *makeshift army funded by insanely rich oil countries* you mean? Wouldn't say they made it themselves but its the easiest thing in the world to just ship it to them | ||
BioNova
United States598 Posts
On September 09 2013 02:24 Myles wrote: Let's get back to the Syria talk everyone. LOL thank you BioNova. Bet you neva thought you would say that. You're Welcome o/c | ||
SkelA
Macedonia13063 Posts
On September 09 2013 02:20 oneofthem wrote: your story is so good it even has a wikipedia page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanophobia#Republic_of_Macedonia What does that have to do with the thing i said? Its common knowledge that albanians that were fighting in kosovo/macedonia were backed by usa as the rebels in syria. The "albanophobia" as you state its justified because you dont live here to know whats happening here. Every week there is incidents by albanians that either stab kids, pillage churches in their "teritory" or just massacre boys on the day before easter. The wiki post is biased and just records the incidents towards albanians, now multiply that by x20 and you will realise why those happen. Well this was really off topic but whenever i see someone defends the "peaceful" albanians something just boils inside my soul. | ||
oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
the video seems suspect so leaving that aside, the term 'common sense' is only a rhetoric device there, kind of like saying "we have all this evidence and it's 'self evident' to anyone," and then go on about how we are not releasing the evidence and thus not releasing our reasons. However, please trust us that we are professionals and our reasons are strong. It's a bit too arrogant though. the strength of the US claim would still depend on what exact intelligence they have, so i don't think 'common sense' is the sum of their argument. it's just that they are trying to nicely scream at people to believe them, without revealing sensitive intelligence. that report about it being an internal conflict within the syrian army is interesting, but assad isn't exactly using that as his excuse. if it's indeed a decision of some lower branch in the chain of command, then it's still the syrian army doing the deed. it probably is someone close to syria's ruling group making that launch decision. | ||
Xpace
United States2209 Posts
On September 09 2013 02:00 SupplyBlockedTV wrote: You seriously have no idea what you are talking about. Like i said, take it for what it is, i dont give a shit. I bet you havnt even been in countries like kosovo. I have been there, in a UN jeep with this person i speak of. Why would i want to blatantly lie on the internet? Think i could really just make this up? It's the fact that you started off your post with a statement that everybody in this thread knew already On September 08 2013 22:01 SupplyBlockedTV wrote: This is not the first time america helped rebels. Basra, Fallujah, Samarra, Baghdad, Karbala, Benghazi, Tripoli, Misrata, Zawiya, Amman, Az Zarqa, Kurdistan, Kabul, Kandahar, Herat, and plenty more - and that's just the Middle East. They did the same in the balkan conflicts, they even trained muslims to cause trouble. Again, nothing new, nor fresh, nor informative, which is probably why nobody's argued against this. It's this: You know the main reason behind this? Because in countries like Kosovo there were rich albanian families that gave aid in the presidential campaign. You dont become president in america without having serious contacts. Putting aside the tin-foil premise, you have a long line of Russians, Chinese, Saudis, Israelis, and many more who would love to play into this rhetoric. Let's not forget American, which everybody would agree with on a whim. I know this first hand from a trusted source (not from the internet, but obviously cannot disclose who) Your source is the first-hand observations and opinions of a minuscule cog in a extremely complex, extremely complicated scenario of inter-governmental relations, at best. That doesn't really warrant the declarative arrogance in thinking that Albanian money is somehow the driving force of the American presidency. Seriously, if anything, it is you coming off as narrow. Again, if you notice, nobody is denying your conjecture. Because it's irrelevant. Reality isn`t always what it seems. Exactly. | ||
LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On September 09 2013 02:34 Zeo wrote: *makeshift army funded by insanely rich oil countries* you mean? Wouldn't say they made it themselves but its the easiest thing in the world to just ship it to them If it's not easy to make, then someone has to have the stuff to ship it to them, and that would mean that there's something to track. So it's not "something you could make in your backyard" then? | ||
BioNova
United States598 Posts
On September 09 2013 02:59 oneofthem wrote: the video seems suspect so leaving that aside, the term 'common sense' is only a rhetoric device there, kind of like saying "we have all this evidence and it's 'self evident' to anyone," but we are not releasing the evidence and thus not releasing our reasons. However, please trust us that we are professionals and our reasons are strong. It's a bit too arrogant though. the strength of the US claim would still depend on what exact intelligence they have, so i don't think 'common sense' is the sum of their argument. it's just that they are trying to nicely scream at people to believe them, without revealing sensitive intelligence. that report about it being an internal conflict within the syrian army is interesting, but assad isn't exactly using that as his excuse. if it's indeed a decision of some lower branch in the chain of command, then it's still the syrian army doing the deed. it probably is someone close to syria's ruling group making that launch decision. I know the video is iffy. It's the perfect illustration of the mess that is presented as 'common sense' If in deed there was a break in the Assad's ranks and a rogue element did commit this attack, and Assad by default is guilty on that premise, what would you say to the American Prosecutor who files co-conspirator charges against Obama for Sgt. Bales massacre, or Chelsea Manning's leaks, or Nidal Hassan. If Assad suddenly arrested a bunch of officers and tried and hanged them, then we're all good? + Show Spoiler + So what was this unfolding strategy to undermine Syria and Iran all about? According to retired NATO Secretary General Wesley Clark, a memo from the Office of the US Secretary of Defense just a few weeks after 9/11 revealed plans to "attack and destroy the governments in 7 countries in five years", starting with Iraq and moving on to "Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Iran." In a subsequent interview, Clark argues that this strategy is fundamentally about control of the region's vast oil and gas resources. Much of the strategy currently at play was candidly described in a 2008 US Army-funded RAND report, Unfolding the Future of the Long War (pdf). The report noted that "the economies of the industrialized states will continue to rely heavily on oil, thus making it a strategically important resource." As most oil will be produced in the Middle East, the US has "motive for maintaining stability in and good relations with Middle Eastern states": "The geographic area of proven oil reserves coincides with the power base of much of the Salafi-jihadist network. This creates a linkage between oil supplies and the long war that is not easily broken or simply characterized... For the foreseeable future, world oil production growth and total output will be dominated by Persian Gulf resources... The region will therefore remain a strategic priority, and this priority will interact strongly with that of prosecuting the long war." In this context, the report identified several potential trajectories for regional policy focused on protecting access to Gulf oil supplies, among which the following are most salient: "Divide and Rule focuses on exploiting fault lines between the various Salafi-jihadist groups to turn them against each other and dissipate their energy on internal conflicts. This strategy relies heavily on covert action, information operations (IO), unconventional warfare, and support to indigenous security forces... the United States and its local allies could use the nationalist jihadists to launch proxy IO campaigns to discredit the transnational jihadists in the eyes of the local populace... US leaders could also choose to capitalize on the 'Sustained Shia-Sunni Conflict' trajectory by taking the side of the conservative Sunni regimes against Shiite empowerment movements in the Muslim world.... possibly supporting authoritative Sunni governments against a continuingly hostile Iran." Exploring different scenarios for this trajectory, the report speculated that the US may concentrate "on shoring up the traditional Sunni regimes in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Pakistan as a way of containing Iranian power and influence in the Middle East and Persian Gulf." Noting that this could actually empower al-Qaeda jihadists, the report concluded that doing so might work in western interests by bogging down jihadi activity with internal sectarian rivalry rather than targeting the US: "One of the oddities of this long war trajectory is that it may actually reduce the al-Qaeda threat to US interests in the short term. The upsurge in Shia identity and confidence seen here would certainly cause serious concern in the Salafi-jihadist community in the Muslim world, including the senior leadership of al-Qaeda. As a result, it is very likely that al-Qaeda might focus its efforts on targeting Iranian interests throughout the Middle East and Persian Gulf while simultaneously cutting back on anti-American and anti-Western operations." The RAND document contextualised this disturbing strategy with surprisingly prescient recognition of the increasing vulnerability of the US's key allies and enemies - Saudi Arabia, the Gulf states, Egypt, Syria, Iran - to a range of converging crises: rapidly rising populations, a 'youth bulge', internal economic inequalities, political frustrations, sectarian tensions, and environmentally-linked water shortages, all of which could destabilise these countries from within or exacerbate inter-state conflicts. The report noted especially that Syria is among several "downstream countries that are becoming increasingly water scarce as their populations grow", increasing a risk of conflict. Thus, although the RAND document fell far short of recognising the prospect of an 'Arab Spring', it illustrates that three years before the 2011 uprisings, US defence officials were alive to the region's growing instabilities, and concerned by the potential consequences for stability of Gulf oil. These strategic concerns, motivated by fear of expanding Iranian influence, impacted Syria primarily in relation to pipeline geopolitics. In 2009 - the same year former French foreign minister Dumas alleges the British began planning operations in Syria - Assad refused to sign a proposed agreement with Qatar that would run a pipeline from the latter's North field, contiguous with Iran's South Pars field, through Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria and on to Turkey, with a view to supply European markets - albeit crucially bypassing Russia. Assad's rationale was "to protect the interests of [his] Russian ally, which is Europe's top supplier of natural gas." Instead, the following year, Assad pursued negotiations for an alternative $10 billion pipeline plan with Iran, across Iraq to Syria, that would also potentially allow Iran to supply gas to Europe from its South Pars field shared with Qatar. The Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) for the project was signed in July 2012 - just as Syria's civil war was spreading to Damascus and Aleppo - and earlier this year Iraq signed a framework agreement for construction of the gas pipelines. The Iran-Iraq-Syria pipeline plan was a "direct slap in the face" to Qatar's plans. No wonder Saudi Prince Bandar bin Sultan, in a failed attempt to bribe Russia to switch sides, told President Vladmir Putin that "whatever regime comes after" Assad, it will be "completely" in Saudi Arabia's hands and will "not sign any agreement allowing any Gulf country to transport its gas across Syria to Europe and compete with Russian gas exports", according to diplomatic sources. When Putin refused, the Prince vowed military action. It would seem that contradictory self-serving Saudi and Qatari oil interests are pulling the strings of an equally self-serving oil-focused US policy in Syria, if not the wider region. It is this - the problem of establishing a pliable opposition which the US and its oil allies feel confident will play ball, pipeline-style, in a post-Assad Syria - that will determine the nature of any prospective intervention: not concern for Syrian life. What is beyond doubt is that Assad is a war criminal whose government deserves to be overthrown. The question is by whom, and for what interests? Source Something tells me we would not be good. | ||
oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
the situation though is not being resolved through a international criminal court system, as some have argued it should be. http://crookedtimber.org/2013/09/07/assad-and-the-icc/ it's clear that U.S.'s interest in syria and its neighbors is largely motivated by oil, but that does not mean this particular incident with chemical weapons is purely the operation of oil grab logic. it might be that their reasons are more multiple goals oriented, rather than simply 'grab dat oil' | ||
BioNova
United States598 Posts
On September 09 2013 03:05 LegalLord wrote: If it's not easy to make, then someone has to have the stuff to ship it to them, and that would mean that there's something to track. So it's not "something you could make in your backyard" then? It's not Fed Ex'd across the border, and IF it did get there, good luck accessing the paperwork for what would amount to a false-flag covert war crime from two of the most established US armed and supported Gulf cartels. Here's what you're wanting to know. 1994: The Japanese religious sect Aum Shinrikyo released an impure form of sarin in Matsumoto, Nagano, killing eight people and harming over 200. Who armed them? Is it implausible for the rebels to do better? | ||
LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On September 09 2013 03:21 BioNova wrote: It's not Fed Ex'd across the border, and IF it did get there, good luck accessing the paperwork for what would amount to a false-flag covert war crime from two of the most established US armed and supported Gulf cartels. Here's what you're wanting to know. 1994: The Japanese religious sect Aum Shinrikyo released an impure form of sarin in Matsumoto, Nagano, killing eight people and harming over 200. Who armed them? Is it implausible for the rebels to do better? Actually, I searched a little deeper, and found something meaningful: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2948900.stm The chemicals needed to launch a deadly terrorist attack are easily available in Britain, a BBC investigation has discovered. Using a credit card and fake headed note paper, a reporter for BBC Radio 4's Today programme was able to buy a cocktail of ingredients which could be used to make sarin gas. Which means that anyone could have sarin if they so desired. That means that possession isn't really enough to pin the blame on Assad. | ||
{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
BERLIN, Sept 8 (Reuters) - Syrian government forces may have carried out a chemical weapons attack close to Damascus without the personal permission of President Bashar al-Assad, Germany's Bild am Sonntag paper reported on Sunday, citing German intelligence. Syrian brigade and division commanders had been asking the Presidential Palace to allow them to use chemical weapons for the last four-and-a-half months, according to radio messages intercepted by German spies, but permission had always been denied, the paper said. This could mean Assad may not have personally approved the attack close to Damascus on Aug. 21 in which more than 1,400 are estimated to have been killed, intelligence officers suggested. Germany's foreign intelligence agency (BND) could not be reached for comment. Source | ||
dsousa
United States1363 Posts
http://www.politico.com/story/2013/09/aipac-syria-96344.html This is the key battle. The American people are decidedly against any Syria action, however, AIPAC is decidedly for it. Democracy vs Lobbyists , honestly AIPAC is the huge favorite to get what they want, but IF... .and its a big IF, they are defied, it will go a long ways towards weakening all lobbyists grip on Washington. If American's want control of their government back, it needs to start with the people getting their way over lobbyists at some point. We'll see. | ||
MoltkeWarding
5195 Posts
Therefore the question of whether this was a rogue operation is irrelevant. | ||
oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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BioNova
United States598 Posts
On September 09 2013 03:28 MoltkeWarding wrote: Did anyone even read the Daily Caller Report? If it is to be believed, the full transcript indicates not only that the commander Unit 8200 was interrogated by the Syrian General Staff, but the report of those interrogations and investigation drew the conclusion that all weapons in Unit 8200 were accounted for, i.e. no weapons were fired from that unit. Therefore the question of whether this was a rogue operation is irrelevant. It's only irrelevant if one insists on avoiding any form of deep brain function in favor of a pre-packaged opinion. Facts on both sides are highly disputed at this juncture and rightfully so. I'm not saying the report is right or wrong, it should be considered, hence my earlier comment about the administration and the Daily Caller flap. This situation is political calculus, not long division. President Bashar al-Assad did not personally order last month's chemical weapons attack near Damascus that has triggered calls for US military intervention, and blocked numerous requests from his military commanders to use chemical weapons against regime opponents in recent months, a German newspaper has reported , citing unidentified, high-level national security sources. The intelligence findings were based on phone calls intercepted by a German surveillance ship operated by the BND, the German intelligence service, and deployed off the Syrian coast, Bild am Sonntag said. The intercepted communications suggested Assad, who is accused of war crimes by the west including foreign secretary William Hague, was not himself involved in last month's attack or in other instances when government forces have allegedly used chemical weapons. Assad sought to exonerate himself from the August attack in which hundreds died. "There has been no evidence that I used chemical weapons against my own people," he said in an interview with CBS. But the intercepts tended to add weight to the claims of the Obama administration and Britain and France that elements of the Assad regime, and not renegade rebel groups, were responsible for the attack in the suburb of Ghouta, Bild said. Source | ||
nunez
Norway4003 Posts
On September 09 2013 03:40 BioNova wrote: This situation is political calculus, not long division. say what now? | ||
dsousa
United States1363 Posts
On September 08 2013 22:01 SupplyBlockedTV wrote: This is not the first time america helped rebels. They did the same in the balkan conflicts, they even trained muslims to cause trouble. You know the main reason behind this? Because in countries like Kosovo there were rich albanian families that gave aid in the presidential campaign. You dont become president in america without having serious contacts. I know this first hand from a trusted source (not from the internet, but obviously cannot disclose who) Reality isn`t always what it seems. I think this is a key point. Politicians can be influenced very cheaply relative to the power they wield. When they defy their political base is when they are cashing in their political capital for actual capital. | ||
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