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Iraq & Syrian Civil Wars - Page 121

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Please guys, stay on topic.

This thread is about the situation in Iraq and Syria.
cem61
Profile Joined April 2013
Turkey18 Posts
September 05 2013 15:53 GMT
#2401
On September 06 2013 00:49 forestry wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23966147
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23962304
Some Syrians prefer Assad over the jihadists

Is there a reason why they act like Nazis?
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43557 Posts
September 05 2013 16:00 GMT
#2402
On September 05 2013 06:16 dsousa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 05 2013 06:12 DeepElemBlues wrote:
On September 05 2013 06:02 Boblion wrote:
On September 05 2013 05:50 DeepElemBlues wrote:
On September 05 2013 05:48 dsousa wrote:
On September 05 2013 05:36 KwarK wrote:
On September 05 2013 03:54 Asymmetric wrote:
On September 05 2013 03:32 dUTtrOACh wrote:
The UN isn't about military retaliation against countries that violate their charters.

They impose economic sanctions, send peace-keepers, etc. I think this conflict has escalated beyond the ability to keep the peace and that leaves only sanctions and other economic actions on the table as far as Syria is concerned. If Obama or the US govt. think they can solve this matter simply by bombing the shit out of Syria from long-range they're simply wrong.

This isn't even about the credibility of International law. It's about the credibility of the Obama administration. International law says nothing about green-lighting military intervention by foreigners outside of peace-keeping roles just because a civil conflict has gotten way out of hand.


No it isn't

The entire point of the UN Security council was to provide the UN with the stick needed to discuss and enforce international security concerns post world war 2 after the league of nations completely failed to do so. It was specifically designed to have teeth and not repeat the spineless in-action that plagued the league of nations and contributed to complacency that led to WW2.

Economic sanctions are the worst of all worlds, they hit civilians indiscriminately.

Not true. The point of the security council is to make sure the UN can veto anything that threatens one of the 5 most powerful nations to avoid another world war.


Note: not the 5 most powerful nations, but the 5 nations that opposed Germany in WW2.


Note: those 5 nations actually are still the 5 most powerful nations by a wide margin plus they are the 5 nuclear monopoly powers which is the real reason they have the vetoes and permanent member status.

Not the best explanation, the US were the only country with nuclear weapons when the Security Council was created.


Actually that is the best explanation as to why the same 5 countries have permanent member status and the ability to veto today as did in 1945. There's certainly no other reason that France and Britain should still be permanent veto-wielding members.


Maybe its because the US likes have 2 extra votes all the time.

3 vetos aren't any more powerful than 1. That's not how vetos work.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43557 Posts
September 05 2013 16:04 GMT
#2403
On September 05 2013 20:21 Rosie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 05 2013 20:02 sgtnoobkilla wrote:
On September 05 2013 19:43 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
The fate of the world is at stake here, world war 3 is a very real possibility.


This isn't a Hollywood movie. Quit being such a drama queen.

What gave you the idea that there is even the slightest chance of WW3 happening...?


If the U.S. attack on Syria without UN approval, then Russia will fulfill its part of the contract. The troops of al-Assad was not found sarin in service, so the U.S. does not have the authority to attack Syria.

Russia is never, ever, ever going to escalate shit vs the US. There is no geopolitical prize worth war with the United States.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18846 Posts
September 05 2013 16:20 GMT
#2404
On September 06 2013 01:04 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 05 2013 20:21 Rosie wrote:
On September 05 2013 20:02 sgtnoobkilla wrote:
On September 05 2013 19:43 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
The fate of the world is at stake here, world war 3 is a very real possibility.


This isn't a Hollywood movie. Quit being such a drama queen.

What gave you the idea that there is even the slightest chance of WW3 happening...?


If the U.S. attack on Syria without UN approval, then Russia will fulfill its part of the contract. The troops of al-Assad was not found sarin in service, so the U.S. does not have the authority to attack Syria.

Russia is never, ever, ever going to escalate shit vs the US. There is no geopolitical prize worth war with the United States.

This is what I keep telling those I get in arguments with; many are vastly overestimating Russia's interest in entering into geo-political conflict. Their domestic situation is shit, they practically have the support of only Iran, and only God knows what their dilapidated military is actually capable of (this ain't Chechnya). I can't help but feel that many who are suggesting that Russia is oh so willing to enter into war are making such statements out of purely political rather than pragmatic estimations. It is in the interest of those against intervention to talk up Russia's proclivity for action.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
dsousa
Profile Joined October 2011
United States1363 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-05 17:17:14
September 05 2013 17:08 GMT
#2405
151 out of 193 countries in the UN have a US military presence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_deployments

I'll bet within 3 years, Syria is added to that list.

History will look back on the US as the most war-faring modern state that ever existed and they will marvel at how the population was blind to that fact.

There won't be a world war, the US vs the rest of the world isn't even a fair fight at this point, but the US has become completely corrupted by military power and its time people at least were outraged about it.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. What we're seeing is as simple as that. The US military has been unopposed since the fall of the USSR, there is no balance of power.

We're going to bomb Syria. We're going to arm the rebels. If the rebels can overthrow Assad, we'll let it happen and put our pieces in place. If not, we will continue to help them until they do or we do.

Then, after a reasonable hiatus, we'll go after Iran.

The US has a been in a significant military conflict every 40 months since WW2. Its not going to end with Syria, especially with the amount of people who go along with whatever our government says. They aren't going to stop while they are still growing histories greatest empire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43557 Posts
September 05 2013 17:36 GMT
#2406
This is what it's like to be a superpower. It's not news. Yeah you get involved in shit everywhere, it's because shit everywhere concerns you and you're the one able to change stuff.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
BlueRoyaL
Profile Blog Joined February 2006
United States2493 Posts
September 05 2013 17:42 GMT
#2407
This is on a slight tangent but I have a question.

How powerful, exactly, is Iran's Revolutionary Guards? I swear every time I see a mention of them on an article, they're always described as "the powerful revolutionary guards" or something like that.

Are they really that strong?
WHAT'S HAPPENIN
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43557 Posts
September 05 2013 17:48 GMT
#2408
Each Revolutionary Guard has the strength of seven regular guards, four times the movement speed but only twice the firepower. When calculating the point cost of armies Revolutionary Guard battalions cost five times as much as regular battalions but a maximum of two battalions may be fielded at any one time.

Seriously, what kind of question is this?
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
dsousa
Profile Joined October 2011
United States1363 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-05 18:27:59
September 05 2013 18:02 GMT
#2409


Buchanan and Fox news, who would have thought.
jeremycafe
Profile Joined March 2009
United States354 Posts
September 05 2013 18:37 GMT
#2410
On September 06 2013 02:08 dsousa wrote:
151 out of 193 countries in the UN have a US military presence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_deployments

I'll bet within 3 years, Syria is added to that list.

History will look back on the US as the most war-faring modern state that ever existed and they will marvel at how the population was blind to that fact.

There won't be a world war, the US vs the rest of the world isn't even a fair fight at this point, but the US has become completely corrupted by military power and its time people at least were outraged about it.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. What we're seeing is as simple as that. The US military has been unopposed since the fall of the USSR, there is no balance of power.

We're going to bomb Syria. We're going to arm the rebels. If the rebels can overthrow Assad, we'll let it happen and put our pieces in place. If not, we will continue to help them until they do or we do.

Then, after a reasonable hiatus, we'll go after Iran.

The US has a been in a significant military conflict every 40 months since WW2. Its not going to end with Syria, especially with the amount of people who go along with whatever our government says. They aren't going to stop while they are still growing histories greatest empire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures


Since when are American's blind to our military involvement in the world? I am pretty sure most Americans are pretty aware of how much involved we are. Its people like you that think if we just leave everyone alone, they will leave us alone. You are blind to the fact that evil people will exist whether or not you ignore them.

The only thing we should be outraged over with our military power is how we selectively ignore poor nations that have no interest to us. Sadly when Clinton tried to change this, shit blew up in our faces.
Saryph
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1955 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-05 18:42:19
September 05 2013 18:41 GMT
#2411
On September 06 2013 02:08 dsousa wrote:
151 out of 193 countries in the UN have a US military presence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_deployments

I'll bet within 3 years, Syria is added to that list.

History will look back on the US as the most war-faring modern state that ever existed and they will marvel at how the population was blind to that fact.

There won't be a world war, the US vs the rest of the world isn't even a fair fight at this point, but the US has become completely corrupted by military power and its time people at least were outraged about it.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. What we're seeing is as simple as that. The US military has been unopposed since the fall of the USSR, there is no balance of power.

We're going to bomb Syria. We're going to arm the rebels. If the rebels can overthrow Assad, we'll let it happen and put our pieces in place. If not, we will continue to help them until they do or we do.

Then, after a reasonable hiatus, we'll go after Iran.

The US has a been in a significant military conflict every 40 months since WW2. Its not going to end with Syria, especially with the amount of people who go along with whatever our government says. They aren't going to stop while they are still growing histories greatest empire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures


That number includes military attachés and embassy security.
Zyufin
Profile Joined February 2011
United States85 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-05 18:59:47
September 05 2013 18:42 GMT
#2412
On September 05 2013 14:37 Ghanburighan wrote:
On other news, does the new Senate Brief open for anyone else?


It opens for me, and I read it, but I'm still not 100% sure what the result of it is.

It seems to me to just put some restrictions on the duration and nature of the engagement:
a) 60 days, plus 1 30 day extension that Obama can choose to enact with the proper paperwork
b) No ground troops

And requires a justification of and explanation of how the engagement will support the goals listed in the document, as well as regular progress reports once the engagement is underway.

What I'm wondering about is what is the procedure after this, before Obama gets his desired 'go-ahead'? Is this just a resolution describing what hoops will have to be jumped through if the Senate and House vote to support the attack?

Also, lol@Kwark's post on the Revolutionary Guard.
dsousa
Profile Joined October 2011
United States1363 Posts
September 05 2013 20:45 GMT
#2413
On September 06 2013 03:37 jeremycafe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2013 02:08 dsousa wrote:
151 out of 193 countries in the UN have a US military presence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_deployments

I'll bet within 3 years, Syria is added to that list.

History will look back on the US as the most war-faring modern state that ever existed and they will marvel at how the population was blind to that fact.

There won't be a world war, the US vs the rest of the world isn't even a fair fight at this point, but the US has become completely corrupted by military power and its time people at least were outraged about it.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. What we're seeing is as simple as that. The US military has been unopposed since the fall of the USSR, there is no balance of power.

We're going to bomb Syria. We're going to arm the rebels. If the rebels can overthrow Assad, we'll let it happen and put our pieces in place. If not, we will continue to help them until they do or we do.

Then, after a reasonable hiatus, we'll go after Iran.

The US has a been in a significant military conflict every 40 months since WW2. Its not going to end with Syria, especially with the amount of people who go along with whatever our government says. They aren't going to stop while they are still growing histories greatest empire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures


Since when are American's blind to our military involvement in the world? I am pretty sure most Americans are pretty aware of how much involved we are. Its people like you that think if we just leave everyone alone, they will leave us alone. You are blind to the fact that evil people will exist whether or not you ignore them.

The only thing we should be outraged over with our military power is how we selectively ignore poor nations that have no interest to us. Sadly when Clinton tried to change this, shit blew up in our faces.


Defying our allies Russia and China in an effort to bomb their ally is not going to make more people like us.

I agree there is evil and it wants to hurt us, but its for reasons like sending in cruise missiles and war ships. We look unreasonable and aggressive to non involved parties. That doesn't win us many friends.
dsousa
Profile Joined October 2011
United States1363 Posts
September 05 2013 20:53 GMT
#2414
http://i.imgur.com/dVJk7UQ.jpg

If Russia loses its Naval base in Syria, they'll have no presence left in the Mediterranean?
Derez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Netherlands6068 Posts
September 05 2013 20:55 GMT
#2415
On September 06 2013 05:45 dsousa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2013 03:37 jeremycafe wrote:
On September 06 2013 02:08 dsousa wrote:
151 out of 193 countries in the UN have a US military presence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_deployments

I'll bet within 3 years, Syria is added to that list.

History will look back on the US as the most war-faring modern state that ever existed and they will marvel at how the population was blind to that fact.

There won't be a world war, the US vs the rest of the world isn't even a fair fight at this point, but the US has become completely corrupted by military power and its time people at least were outraged about it.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. What we're seeing is as simple as that. The US military has been unopposed since the fall of the USSR, there is no balance of power.

We're going to bomb Syria. We're going to arm the rebels. If the rebels can overthrow Assad, we'll let it happen and put our pieces in place. If not, we will continue to help them until they do or we do.

Then, after a reasonable hiatus, we'll go after Iran.

The US has a been in a significant military conflict every 40 months since WW2. Its not going to end with Syria, especially with the amount of people who go along with whatever our government says. They aren't going to stop while they are still growing histories greatest empire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures


Since when are American's blind to our military involvement in the world? I am pretty sure most Americans are pretty aware of how much involved we are. Its people like you that think if we just leave everyone alone, they will leave us alone. You are blind to the fact that evil people will exist whether or not you ignore them.

The only thing we should be outraged over with our military power is how we selectively ignore poor nations that have no interest to us. Sadly when Clinton tried to change this, shit blew up in our faces.


Defying our allies Russia and China in an effort to bomb their ally is not going to make more people like us.

I agree there is evil and it wants to hurt us, but its for reasons like sending in cruise missiles and war ships. We look unreasonable and aggressive to non involved parties. That doesn't win us many friends.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dayton_Agreement

Made you lots of friends and the russians and chinese were against it back then also. Made possible by 3 weeks of airstrikes.
dsousa
Profile Joined October 2011
United States1363 Posts
September 05 2013 21:09 GMT
#2416
On September 06 2013 05:55 Derez wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2013 05:45 dsousa wrote:
On September 06 2013 03:37 jeremycafe wrote:
On September 06 2013 02:08 dsousa wrote:
151 out of 193 countries in the UN have a US military presence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_deployments

I'll bet within 3 years, Syria is added to that list.

History will look back on the US as the most war-faring modern state that ever existed and they will marvel at how the population was blind to that fact.

There won't be a world war, the US vs the rest of the world isn't even a fair fight at this point, but the US has become completely corrupted by military power and its time people at least were outraged about it.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. What we're seeing is as simple as that. The US military has been unopposed since the fall of the USSR, there is no balance of power.

We're going to bomb Syria. We're going to arm the rebels. If the rebels can overthrow Assad, we'll let it happen and put our pieces in place. If not, we will continue to help them until they do or we do.

Then, after a reasonable hiatus, we'll go after Iran.

The US has a been in a significant military conflict every 40 months since WW2. Its not going to end with Syria, especially with the amount of people who go along with whatever our government says. They aren't going to stop while they are still growing histories greatest empire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures


Since when are American's blind to our military involvement in the world? I am pretty sure most Americans are pretty aware of how much involved we are. Its people like you that think if we just leave everyone alone, they will leave us alone. You are blind to the fact that evil people will exist whether or not you ignore them.

The only thing we should be outraged over with our military power is how we selectively ignore poor nations that have no interest to us. Sadly when Clinton tried to change this, shit blew up in our faces.


Defying our allies Russia and China in an effort to bomb their ally is not going to make more people like us.

I agree there is evil and it wants to hurt us, but its for reasons like sending in cruise missiles and war ships. We look unreasonable and aggressive to non involved parties. That doesn't win us many friends.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dayton_Agreement

Made you lots of friends and the russians and chinese were against it back then also. Made possible by 3 weeks of airstrikes.


Are you sure they opposed it? Russia signed the Dayton Agreement and there was unanimous vote on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_913 that aurhorized air strikes.

But i see your point, you can win friends. Just remember, in this case we are aiding the Islamist potentially Al-quaida faction. So there's that.
HeartOfTheSwarm
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
Niue585 Posts
September 05 2013 21:12 GMT
#2417
"I do not join. I lead." - Queen of Blades
Rassy
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands2308 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-05 21:28:02
September 05 2013 21:21 GMT
#2418
Rusia and usa are just going to devide syria amongst themselves.
The russians apearently have some naval base over there and no way they will give that up to the americans.
Syria will probably fall apart into 2 or 3 different states after the intervention. 1 controlled by the usa and one controlled by rusia.
Turkey seems to be strongly against a kurdic state,though maybe some kurdic state can be formed from the northern part of iraq and the bordering part of syria if that state would give up all claims and effort to also include the turkish kurds, but from this i dont expect much.
Probably 2 states after intervention. Guess negotiations between rusia and the usa about where to draw the border line are already going on.
I would be realy suprised if usa would gain full control over syria though maybe the rusians can be compensated in some other area.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
September 05 2013 21:24 GMT
#2419
(CNN) -- British military scientists found traces of sarin gas in soil and clothing taken from a patient treated near the site of an alleged chemical weapons attack outside Syria's capital, the prime minister's office said Thursday.

Scientists at the Porton Down military laboratory concluded the samples were unlikely to have been faked, and Britain is sharing its findings with the United Nations, the office said.

The revelation is the most specific statement by British officials regarding the chemical they believe was used in the August 21 attack on a rebel stronghold near Damascus, though the office didn't explicitly say who was responsible. U.S. officials have, blaming Syrian government forces for an attack they say left more than 1,400 people dead, many of them children.

The British statement is not the first allegation that sarin gas -- an extremely volatile nerve agent that can kill -- has been used in Syria's gruesome, two-year civil war.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Warlock40
Profile Joined September 2011
601 Posts
September 05 2013 21:25 GMT
#2420
On September 06 2013 02:48 KwarK wrote:
Each Revolutionary Guard has the strength of seven regular guards, four times the movement speed but only twice the firepower. When calculating the point cost of armies Revolutionary Guard battalions cost five times as much as regular battalions but a maximum of two battalions may be fielded at any one time.

Seriously, what kind of question is this?


I'd be embarrassed to admit how long it took me to realise the sarcasm in your post. Well played!

Anyway, according to the Huffington Post, looks like an overwhelming majority of members of Congress are leaning no at this point.

http://data.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/congress-syria-positions

I'm guessing France will definitely not act if the US doesn't. I don't understand - why does France need the US to act first? Is it because the French do not want to be seen as taking a unilateral action?
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