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Off topic discussion and argumentative back and forth will not be tolerated. |
updates:
edit: spoilered for length, first part is about fighting still going on and the situation in Misurata
2nd part is about Lybia wanting a ceasefire and Italy recognising the rebels as representative for Lybia
+ Show Spoiler +
For the fourth straight day, pro-democracy troops have fought and failed to take the strategic eastern town of Brega from forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi, the Libyan leader.
Doctors at the main hospital in Ajdabiya, the closest facility to the frontlines, told the Associated Press that one man was killed and three others wounded during Monday's fighting.
Al Jazeera's Turton reported that while no airstrikes were reported near Brega, aircraft were heard flying overhead throughout the day. Opposition forces were able to take the newer part of the town early in the day, and were using new weapons that had not previously been seen, she said. Farther to the east, in the opposition stronghold of Benghazi, a Turkish hospital ship carrying more than 250 people, many of them wounded, from the besieged western town of Misurata arrived on Sunday.
"It is very, very bad. In my street, Gaddafi bombed us," 26-year-old Ibrahim al-Aradi told the Reuters news agency. "We have no water, no electricity. We don't have medicine. There are snipers everywhere."
Others spoke of Gaddafi's forces bombing mosques and houses.
Doctors say more than 240 people have been killed and over 1,000 wounded in Misurata in the last month, as Gaddafi's forces have sought to retake the opposition bastion. However, on Sunday, the Pentagon confirmed to Al Jazeera that the US had agreed to NATO's request for a 48-hour extension of American participation in the coalition air strikes. US aircraft would stop flying sorties late on Monday, NATO said.
source: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/04/20114354942249240.html
+ Show Spoiler +The Libyan deputy foreign minister has arrived in the Turkish capital, Ankara, in a bid to help negotiate a ceasefire with opposition forces in the North African nation, a day after he visited Greece on a similar mission.
Abdel Ati al-Obeidi and his Turkish counterpart Ahmet Davutolgu are to look at common ground between forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi, the Libyan leader, and the opposition National Council, officials said.
"We will do our best so that the suffering in Libya comes to an end in the shortest possible time and that a roadmap is outlined in a way that would include political changes in line with the demands of the Libyan people," Davutoglu said ahead of Monday's meeting.
However, officials have not confirmed which members of the opposition would be visiting Turkey and when. Meanwhile in Italy, Franco Frattini, the country's foreign minister, dismissed a message from Gaddafi's envoy for discussions to halt fighting in Libya, saying that the request was "not credible" because it did not mention the leader standing down.
Speaking after a meeting on Monday with Ali Essawi, a member of the Libyan rebel council, Frattini said Gaddafi's departure was a "pre-condition" to any negotiated settlement over Libya and gave his support to the country''s opposition council.
"We have decided to recognise the council as the only political, legitimate interlocutor to represent Libya," he told reporters, in the clearest sign that Italy now backs the Transitional National Council set up in Benghazi.
"A solution for the future of Libya has a pre-condition - that Gaddafi's regime leaves and is out and that Gaddafi himself and his family leave the country," he said.
Italy is the third country to recognise the council, following France and Qatar.
source: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2011/04/201144103344723978.html
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On April 05 2011 00:45 Pika Chu wrote:
Yes but unfortunately their strategy worked, at least that's how i see it (from second hand experience however, reading articles about it).
No I agree with that, there seemed to be some spontaneous Sunni support caused by the fear of having an inverted situation.
On April 05 2011 00:45 Pika Chu wrote:
And regarding my arguments, you didn't refute them because you could not and because they have a rational based judgement unlike your emotional based judgement.
When Aurocaido asked for evidence, you quoted whan and New York-based group says. Ok, very reliable i must say, couldn't find a more unbiased source.
Please don't try to play "who's the smartest kid", if you feel you had good arguments please quote your post or sum them up. And no, I'm actually trying to take quite a lot of distance with the events, not arguing in one unique way (see the quote about air strikes on civilians unconfirmed and support protest in London).
And if you check my sources, I tried to make them as diversified as possible, quoting not only Al Jazeera and Le Monde, but also the NY Times, the Guardian, Times of Malta, SBS... avoiding the BBC which you criticize so often and even adding some Russia Today to boot!
On April 05 2011 00:45 Pika Chu wrote:
That argument with the economy still stands. There aren't revolutions when things are going well and people have a decent standard of living. The information you posted is very outdated and thus cannot allow any argument to be based on it.
Around 7 years and it's very outdated? There weren't any foreign estimations since though, and if we believe this number, than we can't possibly believe that it was 15% the following year... France itself is at around 9%.
On April 05 2011 00:45 Pika Chu wrote:Libya has improved a lot in the last decade, way more than Bahrain. For example, check your numbers (in the 2003 CIA factbook you posted) with the most recent statistic i've been able to find http://en. wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_unemployment_rate which is 2005.
So you take your info on wikipedia? Which took it info from a BBC article? How serious is that? Do you really believe that unemployment could go from 30% to 13% in a year?
I have found this about earlier figures (2008):
Indeed, for the many Libyan that will lose their formerly safe and secure government jobs, there is little hope on the small private employment market. Official figures put the unemployment rate in Libya at 17 percent, but the real figure is believed to be much higher.
Source
On April 05 2011 00:45 Pika Chu wrote:Check the trends. It's all about the trends, when the country is going good people are happy, when the country is going bad or stagnating the people are getting stressed, frustrated and angry (basic sociology studies). Just so as example, libyan's currency parity to the dollar is much stronger than bahrain's currency ( http://www.xe.com/currency/lyd-libyan-dinar vs http://www.xe.com/currency/bhd-bahraini-dinar ).
And when it rains people get wet, right?
From the very article you based yourself on:
'Moving backwards'
Many people there have a tale to share about their unemployed status, but only a few are willing to talk about it.
"I have a technical school diploma in computing and I have two files at the public workforce ministry with no results," said one former market trader.
"I've wasted three years waiting for a job opportunity. I used to work in the fish market to try to make a living but the municipal guards removed us, saying we need a licence, although there's no such thing for that type of work. As the world moves forward, we seem to be moving backwards."
Others have similar tales to tell. Official estimates say 13% of Libyans are unemployed. With a local population of 5.5m people, half of whom are under 20, this is an alarming figure and one that calls for solutions.
Source - this is where the wikipedia article you quoted got his numbers
On April 05 2011 00:45 Pika Chu wrote:
No HellRoxYa, if you read you understand that Gaddafi wanted to finish with the tribal system, and what he did was not to advantage his own tribe and punish the rest but treat them the same (of course i'm sure in reality his tribe still had advantages) and which he demonstrated by giving people from other tribes powerful positions. As you should know, there are some tribes which revolted against Gaddafi and declared him war, and the betrayals in power were from members of those tribes. So no in that aspect is still different although i can agree about the Gaddafi family, but let's remember... he is a dictator after all.
Right, he wanted to end the tribalistic system, we agree with that, but you skip the part where he removes government officials he doesn't trust and replaces them with members of his own tribe.
Quite logically, the "prevailing" tribe should be the Warfallah tribe which counts a million members, and not the Al-Qaddafi tribe to which Gaddafi belongs.
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So , now we've got the rebels outnumbered 10 to one.Is this because many everyday Libyans have switched sides now the west has intervened? Remember these rebels were specifically AGAINST western intervention.If you ask me the west has done a magnificent job of galvanising Libya behind Gaddafi.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12930169
Rebels 'outnumbered'
Meanwhile, the Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, Adm Mike Mullen, said coalition air attacks had destroyed about a quarter of the Libyan government's military's capabilities.
But Adm Mullen said this did not mean that Col Gaddafi's forces were close to breaking point; he said they still outnumbered Libyan rebels about 10-to-one.
http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/world/8917069/libya-rebels-form-council-oppose-foreign-intervention/
BENGHAZI, Libya (Reuters) - Rebels in eastern Libya said on Sunday they had formed a national council, pledging to help free areas of the country still under Muammar Gaddafi's rule and describing the council as the face of the revolution.
Hafiz Ghoga, spokesman for the new National Libyan Council that was launched in the eastern city of Benghazi, said the council was not an interim government, was not contacting foreign governments and did not want them to intervene.
Although not a direct response to Clinton's remarks, Ghoga said: "We are completely against foreign intervention. The rest of Libya will be liberated by the people ... and Gaddafi's security forces will be eliminated by the people of Libya."
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ZAWIYAH, Libya — In the second-floor office of a burned-out police station here, the photographs strewn across the floor spun out the stories of the unlucky prisoners who fell into the custody of the brutal government of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi.
Some depicted corpses bearing the marks of torture. One showed scars down the back of a man dressed only in his underwear, another a naked man face down under a sheet with his hands bound. The faces of the dead bore expressions of horror. Other pictures showed puddles of blood, a table of jars, bottles and powders and, in one, a long saw.
In a labyrinthine basement, workers were clearing out burned books and files. One room contained a two-liter bottle of gin. Gesturing into another room that was kept dark, a worker mimicked a gun with his hands and murmured “Qaddafi,” suggesting it was an execution chamber.
Source
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United States41964 Posts
On April 05 2011 09:25 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:So , now we've got the rebels outnumbered 10 to one.Is this because many everyday Libyans have switched sides now the west has intervened? Remember these rebels were specifically AGAINST western intervention.If you ask me the west has done a magnificent job of galvanising Libya behind Gaddafi. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12930169Rebels 'outnumbered' Show nested quote +Meanwhile, the Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, Adm Mike Mullen, said coalition air attacks had destroyed about a quarter of the Libyan government's military's capabilities.
But Adm Mullen said this did not mean that Col Gaddafi's forces were close to breaking point; he said they still outnumbered Libyan rebels about 10-to-one. http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/world/8917069/libya-rebels-form-council-oppose-foreign-intervention/Show nested quote +BENGHAZI, Libya (Reuters) - Rebels in eastern Libya said on Sunday they had formed a national council, pledging to help free areas of the country still under Muammar Gaddafi's rule and describing the council as the face of the revolution.
Hafiz Ghoga, spokesman for the new National Libyan Council that was launched in the eastern city of Benghazi, said the council was not an interim government, was not contacting foreign governments and did not want them to intervene.
Although not a direct response to Clinton's remarks, Ghoga said: "We are completely against foreign intervention. The rest of Libya will be liberated by the people ... and Gaddafi's security forces will be eliminated by the people of Libya."
On the contrary the rebels were begging for a no fly zone from day 1.
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Rebels have regained the ground they lost near Brega the day before. Stalemate yet?
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A report by the Associated Press says that Shatwan – former chairman of the joint Libya-Malta Commission – told the agency that a number of Gaddafi’s “inner-circle” are under siege and want to defect as soon as they have the opportunity.
Former Libyan energy minister Omar Fathi bin Shatwan, who also served as Libya's industry minister, has fled by fishing boat to Malta from the western Libyan city of Misrata, the Associated Press is reporting.
"Those whose families are outside Libya will flee if they get a chance," Shatwan said in a telephone interview. "But many can't leave, and all the families of ministers are under siege," he told AP.
Shatwan said he spent 40 days bunkered in his home in Misrata before escaping from Libya, and also witnessed Gaddafi's forces pounding the city with heavy artillery and relentlessly shooting civilians.
Source
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Hello everyone, i am translating a mail i got, facts about "hardship" in libya and their "cruel" leader gaddafi.. I will add that they werent checked if they were true, more like wikileaks, so you can look them up yourself if you want.
I have for some, and they came up true, and since this days its hard to know what is true and what not, i base this on my experience in life, politicians and presidents lie on daily bases, most of them lies and steal, noone takes responsibility.. I for one easier believe this than all this "freedom" bullshit from invading countries, when we all know they are doing it for the profit..
The whole system is turning out to be a one big damn lie.
This e-mail goes into category "cant be true, but it is".
I really do wonder, what libians expect (What more that they already have) from so called democracy, specialy if facts listed here is so called dictatorship.
God please, send us this kind of dictatorship..
*******************************************************************************
Gadafi revolution differently, not in the eyes of "america" and other oil hungry nations..
* *
*FACTS ABOUT GADAFI DICTATORSHIP*
*- GDP of each citizens ( including baby and senior citizens): 14.192 $.* *
- Support for unemployed: 730 $.* *
- Medical nurse pay: 1.000 $.* *
- For each newborn Libya pays to their family 7.000 $.* *
- When first marriage happens, married couple get from Libya an amount to help them buy ppartment -> 64.000 $* *
- When you create a private company, you get 20.000 $ of starting capital from Libya.* *
- School is totaly free, and i mean TOTALLY.* *
- Health insurance for each citizen totally free.* *
- Prices of food are symbolic( very very low).* *
- Electricity for household = FREE.* *
- Credit to buy appartment or car = INTEREST FREE* *
- When you buy a car, Libya pay half of its value, soldiers 65% of its value. Just look at the icture what kind of cars Libians are driving...* *
- Price of fuel is ridiculosly low = 0,14$/liter.* *
- Average pay in Libya 1200 $ (!!)
- Each student can pinpoint any university in the world, and the state pays everything.**
- and so on*
******************************************************************************
Well, Gaddafi is really a cruel leader. Libians are really "fucked".
*From heavens on earth to democracy like USA, ( Slovenia or EU*
They will cry so much!
As egyptians for Mubarak ...
Yeah, if only our country would be so lucky to have such cruel dictator..
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On April 07 2011 17:31 Samurai- wrote:
This e-mail goes into category "cant be true, but it is".
I really do wonder, what libians expect (What more that they already have) from so called democracy, specialy if facts listed here is so called dictatorship.
God please, send us this kind of dictatorship..
*******************************************************************************
Gadafi revolution differently, not in the eyes of "america" and other oil hungry nations..
* *
*FACTS ABOUT GADAFI DICTATORSHIP*
*- GDP of each citizens ( including baby and senior citizens): 14.192 $.* *
- Support for unemployed: 730 $.* *
- Medical nurse pay: 1.000 $.* *
- For each newborn Libya pays to their family 7.000 $.* *
- When first marriage happens, married couple get from Libya an amount to help them buy ppartment -> 64.000 $* *
- When you create a private company, you get 20.000 $ of starting capital from Libya.* *
- School is totaly free, and i mean TOTALLY.* *
- Health insurance for each citizen totally free.* *
- Prices of food are symbolic( very very low).* *
- Electricity for household = FREE.* *
- Credit to buy appartment or car = INTEREST FREE* *
- When you buy a car, Libya pay half of its value, soldiers 65% of its value. Just look at the icture what kind of cars Libians are driving...* *
- Price of fuel is ridiculosly low = 0,14$/liter.* *
- Average pay in Libya 1200 $ (!!)
- Each student can pinpoint any university in the world, and the state pays everything.**
- and so on*
******************************************************************************
Well, Gaddafi is really a cruel leader. Libians are really "fucked".
*From heavens on earth to democracy like USA, ( Slovenia or EU*
They will cry so much!
As egyptians for Mubarak ...
Yeah, if only our country would be so lucky to have such cruel dictator..
Good luck getting those benefits back when Gadaffi dies and a western backed puppet is installed.
14k GDP is a meaningless stat when fuel is 14c/litre and food is ultra cheap.Many of these people would have a better standard of living than folks in the USA .
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On April 07 2011 17:31 Samurai- wrote:
Hello everyone, i am translating a mail i got, facts about "hardship" in libya and their "cruel" leader gaddafi.. I will add that they werent checked if they were true, more like wikileaks, so you can look them up yourself if you want.
I have for some, and they came up true, and since this days its hard to know what is true and what not, i base this on my experience in life, politicians and presidents lie on daily bases, most of them lies and steal, noone takes responsibility.. I for one easier believe this than all this "freedom" bullshit from invading countries, when we all know they are doing it for the profit..
The whole system is turning out to be a one big damn lie.
This e-mail goes into category "cant be true, but it is".
I really do wonder, what libians expect (What more that they already have) from so called democracy, specialy if facts listed here is so called dictatorship.
God please, send us this kind of dictatorship..
*******************************************************************************
Gadafi revolution differently, not in the eyes of "america" and other oil hungry nations..
* *
*FACTS ABOUT GADAFI DICTATORSHIP*
*- GDP of each citizens ( including baby and senior citizens): 14.192 $.* *
- Support for unemployed: 730 $.* *
- Medical nurse pay: 1.000 $.* *
- For each newborn Libya pays to their family 7.000 $.* *
- When first marriage happens, married couple get from Libya an amount to help them buy ppartment -> 64.000 $* *
- When you create a private company, you get 20.000 $ of starting capital from Libya.* *
- School is totaly free, and i mean TOTALLY.* *
- Health insurance for each citizen totally free.* *
- Prices of food are symbolic( very very low).* *
- Electricity for household = FREE.* *
- Credit to buy appartment or car = INTEREST FREE* *
- When you buy a car, Libya pay half of its value, soldiers 65% of its value. Just look at the icture what kind of cars Libians are driving...* *
- Price of fuel is ridiculosly low = 0,14$/liter.* *
- Average pay in Libya 1200 $ (!!)
- Each student can pinpoint any university in the world, and the state pays everything.**
- and so on*
******************************************************************************
Well, Gaddafi is really a cruel leader. Libians are really "fucked".
*From heavens on earth to democracy like USA, ( Slovenia or EU*
They will cry so much!
As egyptians for Mubarak ...
Yeah, if only our country would be so lucky to have such cruel dictator..
Seriously can you westerner theorcrafters stop spitting on the people who are dying for political freedom?
You guys speak as if you're living in these countries and actually know how it is, yet all you do is quote sources that support your idea of the situation or to make it less black and white so you can calm your conscience for not giving a shit. Why not defend North Korea, Burma and China aswell? China has general healthcoverage for 1.3 billion people, bet you'd trade with a chinese citizen any day yeah?
Fuck off. My fathers from tunisia and I've got family in all these countries, they have no freedom of thought, expression or political strife. Now the dictators have run the countries ok, there is no doupting that, Tunisia has more university students than most western countries per capita. That does not change the fact that my uncle was imprisoned for two years and tortured... even though he had "Free healthcare for 1000$"
Sorry for getting angry but you people godamn disgust me with your generalization of everything... for fucking shame on you.
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On April 07 2011 19:08 Krehlmar wrote:
Seriously can you westerner theorcrafters stop spitting on the people who are dying for political freedom?
Fuck off. My fathers from tunisia and I've got family in all these countries, they have no freedom of thought, expression or political strife.
So the people in Egypt died for political freedom yet their new government banned protests 2 weeks ago? Newsflash : The puppet government that will be installed post Gadaffi will be more tyrannical than Gadaffi ; haven't you people worked that out yet?
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2011/03/25/egypt-revoke-ban-strikes-demonstrations
(New York) - The Egyptian cabinet's announcement on March 24, 2011, of a new law banning strikes and demonstrations that impede the work of public institutions violates international law protections for free assembly and should be reversed immediately, Human Rights Watch said today.
Please try and keep up with the news and not be so rude in your posts.
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I'm frigging sick of 13 years trying to analyze de situation.
It's like the 11th time some dude comes up and says "OMG guess what Libya was a heaven!!"
FFS just THINK a second why do people PROTEST and risk their lives in the first place? What kind of idiot can you be to think for a second that people risk their lives for a bag of peanuts?
I mean damn and all those posts come from eastern Europe, is there some kind of correlation? Like you're so used to much corruption and propaganda you can't even see straight?
Anyway, to answer to those posts, Libya had a 20-30% unemployment rate in those past 10 years, people were employed by the goverment and there are a very few private jobs (no ecomonomical dynamic whatsoever, +planned economy), so no jobs = no jobs at all. GDP is PER CAPITA which means it's the total divided by the number of inhabitants, except one could have 70% and it wouldn't change the GDP per capita (since it doesn't take account of the distribution of the money).
And NO Libyan superior schools system wasn't enought since young students can't go work in Europe with it (the level is too low, these schools are jokes) and can't work in Libya neither because... there is no work!
Just read the inteview that occurred a few years ago about an guy having a degree in computer engineering being having to sell fish on the street. Why? Beacause any rich country has REAL shcools which hand solid diplomas, and Libya has no economy whatsoever and thus no future for the young and unemployed.
And please, please provide a deeper analysis on why the next will be more tyrannical. But do you know history? Do you know what followed the French revolution? La Terreur! Wars! Thousands dead! No freedom of speech whatsoever! But it was an important step towards the end of nobelty.
Also, if you want to argue how Libya is a paradise, go back to page 100 and respond to the post I made about it. Because you keep on babbling the same nonsense and not being able to answer true, backed up facts. (Where are the sources of this e-mail? Oh right, no need for a rigorous approach)
And seriously, telling someone who's had a close relative tortured to chill and giving him the same retarded nonsense you've rambled the past billion pages? Come on, a little respect man.
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On April 07 2011 19:51 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 19:08 Krehlmar wrote:
Seriously can you westerner theorcrafters stop spitting on the people who are dying for political freedom?
Fuck off. My fathers from tunisia and I've got family in all these countries, they have no freedom of thought, expression or political strife.
So the people in Egypt died for political freedom yet their new government banned protests 2 weeks ago? Newsflash : The puppet government that will be installed post Gadaffi will be more tyrannical than Gadaffi ; haven't you people worked that out yet? http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2011/03/25/egypt-revoke-ban-strikes-demonstrationsShow nested quote +(New York) - The Egyptian cabinet's announcement on March 24, 2011, of a new law banning strikes and demonstrations that impede the work of public institutions violates international law protections for free assembly and should be reversed immediately, Human Rights Watch said today. Please try and keep up with the news and not be so rude in your posts.
They died for political freedom. They might not have got it, but don't fool yourself into thinking they died for anything less.
"The puppet government that will be installed post Gadaffi will blablabla" It doesn't have to be you godamn dolt, Tunisia is having no problem at all and yes there are huge differences inbetween these countries, but why are you even defending him? Have you had any family of yours imprisioned, tortured or even have one whom has lived in these countries?
Also fuck the news reportage of the west, 90% of the "analysts" know godamn nothing just as they didn't about Egypt or Tunisia, stop with your retarded news quoting as if they would somehow make you right.
"keep up with the news and not be rude" Ugh you have no idea how much I'm holding my anger in check. Keep up with the news? Dude my fucking family is in tunisia and lybia, my fathers cousin died and my fathers brother had his spine shattered by Ben Ali... he is in chronic pain and can't stretch his back.
But you have the godamn nerve to tell me that that's a small price to pay for 1000$ Healthcare and free education? Fuck you. Seriously. People need to stop theorycrafting about shit they have no real insight about. You are entitled to your opinion (which the people of these countries never had) and I can't force you to not have it, but for the love of god stop being to black and white as if Ghaddafi is some kind of healthy alternative to whatever is going on now... he isn't. He's the comfortable status que built upon thousands of peoples suffering, torture, death and impriosonment. But that's ok for YOU, writing at your computer, you have the guts to say to these people that it's a price that is ok to pay... but I bet my godamn soul you would never pay it for them in their place.
EDIT: Also I am not saying that the rebels are at any point 100% just and correct, they seldom are. Egypts injustice isn't because the rebels fault but because the generals own much of the infrastructure and they will do everything they can to keep their power and wealth. In Tunisia it was only Ben Ali whom had the wealth and thus with him gone it's a much smoother transition than what will happen in Egypt, where things might take a dussin years or more to transition correctly.
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youre all bitching about subjective shit. i know that people who preffer a good standard of living and dont give a rats ass about freedom of speech do exist as do the other kind of people; the ones that put freedom of speech above everything else.
stop arguing which one is better ffs.
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On April 07 2011 21:08 xM(Z wrote:
youre all bitching about subjective shit. i know that people who preffer a good standard of living and dont give a rats ass about freedom of speech do exist as do the other kind of people; the ones that put freedom of speech above everything else.
stop arguing which one is better ffs.
Yes, and they're allowed to have their opinion.
Trust me they're obviously not the ones dying on those streets.
Also, being one whom is voicing your opinion right now I find it hard how you could not prefer freedome of thought and expression?
Also what's this american idiocy that you can't have both?... Most of Europa already has good healthcare, just as these countries have, why would having one remove the other?
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On April 07 2011 21:13 Krehlmar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 21:08 xM(Z wrote:
youre all bitching about subjective shit. i know that people who preffer a good standard of living and dont give a rats ass about freedom of speech do exist as do the other kind of people; the ones that put freedom of speech above everything else.
stop arguing which one is better ffs. Yes, and they're allowed to have their opinion. Trust me they're obviously not the ones dying on those streets. Also, being one whom is voicing your opinion right now I find it hard how you could not prefer freedome of thought and expression? Also what's this american idiocy that you can't have both?... Most of Europa already has good healthcare, just as these countries have, why would having one remove the other?
now youre just setting arbitrary boundaries to censorship, to better server your point. thats bad also.
and honestly i doubt the ones dying on the streets can have an objective point of view since history will be written by the winners.
its bad, its sad, its fucked up and people are dying. learn something out of all this and make sure it wont repeat some place else because itll take at least a few more years untill some form of "truth" about all this will see the light of day.
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On April 07 2011 20:18 Kukaracha wrote:
Anyway, to answer to those posts, Libya had a 20-30% unemployment rate in those past 10 years, people were employed by the goverment and there are a very few private jobs (no ecomonomical dynamic whatsoever, +planned economy), so no jobs = no jobs at all. GDP is PER CAPITA which means it's the total divided by the number of inhabitants, except one could have 70% and it wouldn't change the GDP per capita (since it doesn't take account of the distribution of the money).
I argued basically the same points in arguments against the pro-globalization goons on here , i mentioned Detroit losing out due to globalization and 43 million on food stamps in the USA , more money going to CEOs etc and all the pro-globalization folks could say was "WELL WHAT ABOUT THE SLAVES IN CHINA WHO GET PAID 20c/hour NOW DOING THOSE JOBS?"
At least the benefits in Libya are far superior to most western nations if what that guy posted up a few posts back is correct.The point is Gadaffi does share a decent proportion of the oil wealth amongst his people and the nation , remove him and the average Libyan will be far worse off because the profits will all go offshore to mega-corporations and big banks.
If Gadaffi is such a bad guy why are the rebels outnumbered 10 to one? It's like i said earlier , the size of the rebels has been blown out of proportion by the western media and also many have switched sides from the rebels back to Gadaffi due to concerns about western intervention and eventual takeover of the country and it's wealth.
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On April 07 2011 21:32 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 21:13 Krehlmar wrote:On April 07 2011 21:08 xM(Z wrote:
youre all bitching about subjective shit. i know that people who preffer a good standard of living and dont give a rats ass about freedom of speech do exist as do the other kind of people; the ones that put freedom of speech above everything else.
stop arguing which one is better ffs. Yes, and they're allowed to have their opinion. Trust me they're obviously not the ones dying on those streets. Also, being one whom is voicing your opinion right now I find it hard how you could not prefer freedome of thought and expression? Also what's this american idiocy that you can't have both?... Most of Europa already has good healthcare, just as these countries have, why would having one remove the other? now youre just setting arbitrary boundaries to censorship, to better server your point. thats bad also. and honestly i doubt the ones dying on the streets can have an objective point of view since history will be written by the winners. its bad, its sad, its fucked up and people are dying. learn something out of all this and make sure it wont repeat some place else because itll take at least a few more years untill some form of "truth" about all this will see the light of day.
Arbitrary? Where does that line go for you? In egypt you'd be imprisoned for blogging about the government so my point isn't abitrary.
Learn something out of all this and make sure it wont repeat?... What's there to learn? We all know the UN/Nato only acts when they have interests in the conflict and we all know people always want freedome. Why would you need years to learn that?
Secondly, that's a very passive and sad attitude. France wanted, with the same idea as you, to support Ben Ali in crushing the rebellion because they too like you thought it was to hard to know what was right from wrong.... this is just a lie, a lie people tell themselves to sleep better and a lie states tell their citizens to calm them whereas the states themselves don't want to do anything to disturb the status quo of continuous trade.
You could travel down to Tunisia today and ask any scholar for the full story and he'd easily tell you it with only empiric facts.
My point is; There isn't any godamn haze. Lybia is a more infected conflict yes, but there isn't any real alternative about choosing Ghadaffi over the rebels.
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The revolutions in Lybia and other palces got started by the people living there. So, there seem to be tons of people in these countries that want "change" and no one except them has any right to judge them on that. If they think their standard of living SUCKS and they want freespeech and whatever else, and are ready to fight for it, then no moron should come around the corner and tell them to keep their head sdown because their GDP is "ok" and they have basic healthcare and other benefits.
Seriously... ugh...
A Island with Bill gates and 10'000 hungering slaves would also have good "numbers"...
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On April 07 2011 21:44 Krehlmar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 21:32 xM(Z wrote:On April 07 2011 21:13 Krehlmar wrote:On April 07 2011 21:08 xM(Z wrote:
youre all bitching about subjective shit. i know that people who preffer a good standard of living and dont give a rats ass about freedom of speech do exist as do the other kind of people; the ones that put freedom of speech above everything else.
stop arguing which one is better ffs. Yes, and they're allowed to have their opinion. Trust me they're obviously not the ones dying on those streets. Also, being one whom is voicing your opinion right now I find it hard how you could not prefer freedome of thought and expression? Also what's this american idiocy that you can't have both?... Most of Europa already has good healthcare, just as these countries have, why would having one remove the other? now youre just setting arbitrary boundaries to censorship, to better server your point. thats bad also. and honestly i doubt the ones dying on the streets can have an objective point of view since history will be written by the winners. its bad, its sad, its fucked up and people are dying. learn something out of all this and make sure it wont repeat some place else because itll take at least a few more years untill some form of "truth" about all this will see the light of day. Arbitrary? Where does that line go for you? In egypt you'd be imprisoned for blogging about the government so my point isn't abitrary. Learn something out of all this and make sure it wont repeat?... What's there to learn? We all know the UN/Nato only acts when they have interests in the conflict and we all know people always want freedome. Why would you need years to learn that? Secondly, that's a very passive and sad attitude. France wanted, with the same idea as you, to support Ben Ali in crushing the rebellion because they too like you thought it was to hard to know what was right from wrong.... this is just a lie, a lie people tell themselves to sleep better and a lie states tell their citizens to calm them whereas the states themselves don't want to do anything to disturb the status quo of continuous trade. You could travel down to Tunisia today and ask any scholar for the full story and he'd easily tell you it with only empiric facts. My point is; There isn't any godamn haze. Lybia is a more infected conflict yes, but there isn't any real alternative about choosing Ghadaffi over the rebels.
assumptions, more assumptions, then missing the point and im pretty sure you meant In egypt you'd be imprisoned for blogging against the government so my point isn't abitrary else it makes no sense.
-UN/Nato are not alien entities that mindlesly serve a giant spagetti monster while having no free will of their own. they are made of people just like you and me (argualbe, but go with it) and those people choose to pursue those interests based on the freedoms you bestow upon them. you elect them, you give them the power, you can take it away.
thats one thing you could learn. another one would be that people kill people. people have been killing other people since the dawn of evolution. you could spread the word (educate them) that is bad to do that regarless...and maybe you could prevent this kind of thing from happening again.
-France+support+crushing+rebelion =/= passive attitude.
-empiric facts are subjective but yes, some/most are true from the right perspective. (see conspiracy theories here).
im not supporting one nor the others but if only a few hundred of thousand of people are willing to die for their freedoms (from 5.5millions) why do you assume that all the people want those freedoms?; and even if they all want those freedoms, why should all deserve it since only a few are willing to fight for it.?
if the so called freedom doesnt come with a set of values that puts people first, then im better off without it.
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EPT
