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Off topic discussion and argumentative back and forth will not be tolerated. | ||
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Aurocaido
Canada288 Posts
What was all that shit you were saying about that not being a rebel demand Kukaracha? Who is paying you? The situation is and has been out of hand for some time. Western intervention needs to cease, there is no end game besides the same overused rhetoric 'we are creating a democracy.' Its shit and this whole situation has stunk from day one. | ||
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Petruccio
90 Posts
http://af.reuters.com/article/algeriaNews/idAFLDE73315W20110404 Why NATO special forces, and they were already there at that time, did not prevent this happening? SAM missiles in the hands of terrorists is very very bad. You can be in that plane they may strike! The language is not a problem. There is plenty of info in English also. Do you want to know what is the opinion in the other African countries? Uganda, for example Google news, just 2nd page http://www.newvision.co.ug/D/8/459/752021 No surprise they support Kaddafi and are not fond of former colonisators. Do you know that AU delegation was not allowed by NATO to arrive to Libya till just recently? African Union opinion? Who cares! They are all dictators there! European Union knows better what is better for Africa. | ||
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HellRoxYa
Sweden1614 Posts
On April 14 2011 08:49 Petruccio wrote: Al Qaeda believed to have acquired SAM-7 missiles http://af.reuters.com/article/algeriaNews/idAFLDE73315W20110404 Why NATO special forces, and they were already there at that time, did not prevent this happening? SAM missiles in the hands of terrorists is very very bad. You can be in that plane they may strike! While I agree that it's very, very bad that terrorists might have gotten ahold of SAM weaponry you can't be serious with your question, can you? Or do you expect NATO to be aware of everything happening in Libya? On April 14 2011 08:49 Petruccio wrote: http://www.newvision.co.ug/D/8/459/752021 Authorless article, with obvious bias. "Libya bombing was a call for hasty recolonisation of Africa", yeah, that must be it. | ||
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Petruccio
90 Posts
CIA was aware. Rebellion->attack on military bases->access to the weapons->passing them to ally al qaeda. So easy. I believe CIA has prepared the rebellion, so as in the other countries recently, but cannot prove it of course. I agree "Libya bombing was a call for hasty recolonisation of Africa" sounds a bit funny. But at least something from Africa! | ||
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HellRoxYa
Sweden1614 Posts
On April 14 2011 10:03 Petruccio wrote: HellRoxYa, CIA was aware. Rebellion->attack on military bases->access to the weapons->passing them to ally al qaeda. So easy. I believe CIA has prepared the rebellion, so as in the other countries recently, but cannot prove it of course. I agree "Libya bombing was a call for hasty recolonisation of Africa" sounds a bit funny. But at least something from Africa! You just have no connection to reality. If the CIA in fact did know about it, it would obviously have been stopped. I'll give you 3 reasons as to why: 1. If the CIA runs the show, which you naivly believe, and indeed have intel on exactly everything, which you also believe although I really wonder why, then knowledge isn't a problem and they would know what was happening, when, and what route the weapons would take. 2. The CIA would work against terrorist elements aquiring weaponry which can bring down civilian aircraft. The reasons why are obvious. (If someone wants to argue that they would like the terrorists to have them in some sort of wider conspiracy or whatever they can just make that happen under the table) 3. Given 1 and 2, I would if I was running operations over at CIA with ease dispatch either a, Aircraft to bomb the shit out of the small convoy. This seems bad because of potential collateral damage and overall cost. b, Send in an elite band of say 8 SAS or equivalent to handle the business. Remember, we know which route they're taking and can easily ambush. Now, since we've established that point 3 never happened, point 1 and/or point 2 must be false. I argued against point 2 being false while listing it. That leaves point 1, and magically, or rather through logic, you've been proven wrong. And about the article: A biased non-representative article "from Africa" isn't an article representing Africa at all and thus irrelevant. Just because the website says it's located in Uganda (which may or may not be true) doesn't mean it or its articles voice some sort of overall African opinion on anything. You should maybe try to start searching for reliable sources. For everything. | ||
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woowoo
France164 Posts
Because it never happened ... What happen to smugglers | ||
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FallDownMarigold
United States3710 Posts
On April 04 2011 04:48 Aurocaido wrote: Also it seems that the CIA is secretly training the rebels to use high tech weaponry and an unknown outside source is supplying the rebels with those weapons. So much for no boots on the ground. According to the UN resolution, it seems that CIA involvement is illegal. It is still no boots on the ground, you twit. CIA operators and other clandestine operatives are not considered "boots on the ground". The expression refers to the deployment of conventional ground forces. As far as you're concerned, the clandestine operators do not exist - nor do their tasks. Solid attempt at finger pointing though. It was almost as good as when I heard someone say... "Ho ho ho... Seems OBAMA lied. 2,000 marines have been DEPLOYED to LIBYA - so much for no boots on the ground!" (In fact, marines were deployed as a relief unit - 26 MEU - in order to supplement the activities of the 22 MEU from the SEA, which had already been tasked with overwatch of the Med. region...I believe in Oct. 2010. That unit is now operating out of southern Afghanistan, I believe [correct me if I'm wrong]). In any case, don't equate "boots on the ground" with clandestine operations. It makes me cringe. You might complain about secretive operations in Libya - sure - but then you may as well also complain about the other 140+ nations in which clandestine operations are routinely performed on behalf of US special operations forces, CIA paramilitary, etc. | ||
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Petruccio
90 Posts
The rebels did not enter into military bases at the first day. At least 4 days passed since the beginning of the attacks on the bases. It cannot be that CIA did not know. They know, this is what they do. It is obvious that if the bases are not under control of Gaddafi, then arms may end in the hands of al Qaeda. As the unrest started, they keep an eye on it. Knowing that there are SAMs and there are al Qaeda. If I was al Qaeda, I would take that SAMs. If I was CIA, I would make sure al Qaeda does not get SAMs. If I was Gaddafi, I would bomb the military depots and try to take control over the region as fast as possible. Which he tried to do. Libyan army was close to regain control over the region and arms, so NATO had to start bombing to prevent it and let the war go on. Of course the army would kill the rebels, but this is what authority does with people who attack police stations and army bases. The rebels are not civilians that need protection. The longer war and bombing going on, the worse for civilians. Yes, there is a conspiracy theory that those who sell US dollars want a war. Only a war can save it. They are helping Muslim Brotherhood to gain power in Egypt. They are helping radical islamists to get the power in Libya now. I am not saying I share it. I know too little. I am just not buying the "oil theory" so as "helping civilians". | ||
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HellRoxYa
Sweden1614 Posts
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oldgregg
New Zealand1176 Posts
On April 14 2011 18:20 HellRoxYa wrote: I'm sorry, could you explain why it's in americas interest to create heavyhanded muslim regimes? So that america has a ready supply of oil. The regimes can be bribed with american aid and weapons into allowing american or american friendly oil companies into their country. Democracy would allow a government to arise which has the own countries best interests at heart, and would want to keep the oil in their country and not allow in US companies. Case in point, Overthrow of the leader of iran in 1953 | ||
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Petruccio
90 Posts
Kaim claimed Wednesday that several members of Hizbullah are fighting alongside the rebels in Misrata, but did not provide evidence. He also alleged that members of Speaker Nabih Berri's Amal movement are training rebel fighters in Benghazi. Kaim added that Qatar had sent military trainers to Libya and was supplying the rebels in Benghazi with French-made Milan anti-tank missiles. | ||
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HellRoxYa
Sweden1614 Posts
On April 14 2011 18:41 Petruccio wrote: Libya's deputy foreign minister, Khaled Kaim, has accused Hizbullah of joining the ranks of the rebels fighting against Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi's regime. Kaim claimed Wednesday that several members of Hizbullah are fighting alongside the rebels in Misrata, but did not provide evidence. He also alleged that members of Speaker Nabih Berri's Amal movement are training rebel fighters in Benghazi. Kaim added that Qatar had sent military trainers to Libya and was supplying the rebels in Benghazi with French-made Milan anti-tank missiles. Source? | ||
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Petruccio
90 Posts
On April 14 2011 18:52 HellRoxYa wrote: Source? Google? Anyway, "did not provide evidence". There is a lot of news from western media also without evidence. For example, 10.000 civilians killed by Gaddafi forces. | ||
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Petruccio
90 Posts
On April 14 2011 18:20 HellRoxYa wrote: I'm sorry, could you explain why it's in americas interest to create heavyhanded muslim regimes? It is not America interest, it isa very rich and very powerful group of people who benefit from the current money debt system, based on endless money creation. Also a war is very profitable! Normal Americans are facing tax increase, social programs cuts and level of living decrease. They already started express themselves on the streets. There are many very poor people http://rt.com/usa/news/nyc-income-gap-india/ I am not very well aware what exactly is going on in the states, so any US citizen is welcome to correct me. I've got an impression that the poorest people are doing better in Libya then in US. Soviet diplomats joked: "We are building and building communism in the USSR, but they have already built it in Libya". I am sure there were some problems in Gaddafi regime, but not social programs. | ||
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Petruccio
90 Posts
Cables released by Wikileaks warned that Eastern Libya was proportionally the largest exporter in the world of " Martyr-fighters " in Iraq, along with other reports from the Pentagon describing the City of Derna ( 80,000 inhabitants), as the primary source of jihadists in Iraq. A former U.S. security official in Libya, has stated that among the rebels a lot of "Islamic extremists can create problems " if Gaddafi is expected to fall". Obviously, all this was said when Gaddafi was still "a friend"; but today the situation is different. http://www.african-bulletin.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=803:wikileaks-warned-about-terrorist-in-eastern-libya&catid=34:watch You can be sure,"Islamic extremists WILL create problems if Gaddafi fall" | ||
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Petruccio
90 Posts
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article1696562.ece African Union Steps In To Mediate Peace Talks In Libya Kaddafi: OK, let's change the constitution, let's start the elections, I step out, just do not give the control over the country to the rebels, it is Al Qaeda. Rebels(a thousand or so): we are the people of Libya. NATO, give us the control over the country! Give us weapons! Give us Libyan money from the frozen accounts! US, France and Britain: The war must go on. The group of rebels from East represents all the country. We are considering a humanitarian operation carried by our soldiers and tanks in order to help protect rebels, who are civilians at the same time. Me: WTF?! Why is it happening, why the world let it happen??? | ||
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HellRoxYa
Sweden1614 Posts
On April 14 2011 20:52 Petruccio wrote: Rebels(a thousand or so): we are the people of Libya. NATO, give us the control over the country! Give us weapons! Give us Libyan money from the frozen accounts! [Citation needed] Actually while I'm at it; On April 14 2011 20:52 Petruccio wrote: Kaddafi: OK, let's change the constitution, let's start the elections, I step out, just do not give the control over the country to the rebels, it is Al Qaeda. This never happened. On April 14 2011 20:52 Petruccio wrote: US, France and Britain: The war must go on. The group of rebels from East represents all the country. We are considering a humanitarian operation carried by our soldiers and tanks in order to help protect rebels, who are civilians at the same time. Nor were there any soldiers or tanks involved. | ||
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Petruccio
90 Posts
They already asked NATO to help more with bombing. They cannot win without NATO help. Libyan Rebels Set Their Sights on Qaddafi's Money - http://news.yahoo.com/s/atlantic/20110414/wl_atlantic/libyanrebelswantqaddafisfrozenassetsitwontbeeasy36655 This never happened. AU proposal for peace was exactly like that and Gaddafi accepted it, but the rebels did not. Nor were there any soldiers or tanks involved. Not yet. But they cannot permit Gaddafi to win. So they have no choice but "boots on the ground". EU prepares military-humanitarian mission in Libya http://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/libya-conflict.9hm/ I am waiting for "WMD discovered" or "Gaddafi terrorism in one of European country". But maybe just adding the wold "humanitarian" is enough to start the invasion. We already got used to "tomahawks to protect people", "no fly zone" means air strikes on Libyan forces and Tripoli. | ||
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HellRoxYa
Sweden1614 Posts
On April 15 2011 00:24 Petruccio wrote: AU proposal for peace was exactly like that and Gaddafi accepted it, but the rebels did not. This has already been covered in this thread if I'm not mistaken. On April 15 2011 00:24 Petruccio wrote: Not yet. But they cannot permit Gaddafi to win. So they have no choice but "boots on the ground". EU prepares military-humanitarian mission in Libya http://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/libya-conflict.9hm/ I am waiting for "WMD discovered" or "Gaddafi terrorism in one of European country". But maybe just adding the wold "humanitarian" is enough to start the invasion. We already got used to "tomahawks to protect people", "no fly zone" means air strikes on Libyan forces and Tripoli. Perhaps, but the key here is that it hasn't happened. | ||
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Petruccio
90 Posts
http://nocheinparteibuch.wordpress.com/2011/04/04/hidden-behind-propaganda-a-giant-crime-against-libya-is-fact-part-i/ Media can make you believe everything they need. Why on Earth does he need African mercenaries??? Khamis Brigade, Libyan elite force, is highly trained and equipped 10.000 men, enough I guess even without the rest of army. Some Libyans on South are black, still killed and tortured by rebels. Why on Earth does he need to bomb his own people? His ground forces are more then enough. Maybe it is just because he is a crazy man? If he was crazy, even his sons would remove him form power. Just think yourself. At this moment nobody says something about African mercenaries. They are magically disappeared. Maybe they did not even exist and it was just a western propaganda to make you think what they want you to think? I can tell you immediately that the part with "Brand new NATO weapons" is wrong. But that does not mean all the thing is wrong. Libya did not invest in a large media presence on the international stage and completely lost the media war. | ||
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