EPTThe Rise of China and Fall of America - Page 9
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Easy772
374 Posts
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
The emerging markets are dissapearing and gradually transforming into nations capable of not just producing but also consuming and generating their own wealth. The real question is whether we can make the necessary changes fast enough or whether our slow governments will not be able to react before it's too late. We need somehow to be able to manufacture, grow, mine etc... as much as we consume. | ||
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Loanshark
China3094 Posts
On December 06 2010 18:43 Rflcrx wrote: I wouldn't be so harsh. I would say they care less about freedom of speech and more about their social security/situation. However: I hear the "things are great" story often, yet I wonder why every year the number of (officially registered!) riots increase? ~3000 around 1992, and now we have something like 70000-80000 incidents per year. Going from really small stuff, often times started by local corruption (my father is Li Gang!) to big uprisings like in Xinjiang, Tibet or if I am not mistaken with the Hui people (at least I remember something happend in ~2006?). There is are also a lot of economical problems. Banks are lending way to aggressiv and thus far the government failed to stop this. The housing/real estate market is already a bubble (around 65million houses vacant and no slow down in the construction industry?!) and corruption is as bad as always, despite the fact that the ccp started to execute top officials for minor embezzlement. Some industries are heavily disrupted by the government. At least to my knowledge there is no real hd streaming site (or has youku or somebody else finally implented it). Why would there be one? With the lack of competition and the rather weak broadband network (this is more planned than people think) there is no use for such a technology (welcome to the year 2010). The same goes for general media, due to censorship but market rules it is difficult to develop an industry (TV, Movies, Webapplications, Magazines) that can compete on the international market (lawl@baidu japan). And yes, the chinese people are aware of this and the chinese netizens are very much active, despite all the censorship there are river crabs and grass mudhorses. Yes, it appears to have little effect, but it clearly shows dissatisfaction with the level of personal freedom as well as the injustice inside society. TL;DR: China is on the rise, America is going down, BUT things aren't all that great in China either. This guy's post is legit. Even with the economical development that China has right now, there's still huge social issues. House prices going up, government corruption, general unhappiness especially among ethnic minorities, insane wage gaps, bad mental health, etc. By no means is China on some sort of railroad track to being #1 in the world. | ||
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Danka
Peru1018 Posts
I have been to china 4 times this year for business reasons and my impression of the country´s drive towards bettering itself (reflected very much in each individual's dedication to work hard, for themselves and their country) match very well with what the OP is saying. Its gonna happen. But I am waiting for a subsequent revolution, or evolution. One that I won't see in my lifetime, when the words "competing countries" go out the window and the world finds a new understanding of progress. Basically I want to see the world stop thinking of its progress in terms of individual advances isolated under political boundaries but as a whole. Less us and them mentality and more everyone. I´m just a hippie I guess, but what sense does it make for our world to operate under political boundaries, with constant disputes. | ||
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kazansky
Germany931 Posts
On December 06 2010 22:39 Loanshark wrote: This guy's post is legit. Even with the economical development that China has right now, there's still huge social issues. House prices going up, government corruption, general unhappiness especially among ethnic minorities, insane wage gaps, bad mental health, etc. By no means is China on some sort of railroad track to being #1 in the world. I agree to this from what my parents told me after they visited China this Summer. The economic developement and the technical progress is totally impressive, especially the rate of improvement on this sector (we visited China like 20 years ago). But the Chinese attitude will hinder their progress to world's #1 nation, as they are not willing to adapt certain things. Not only the social issues, which are obviously a obstacle when the people don't profit from economic progress and provoke inside aggressions. But also, Chinese don't sense their role in the context of the world the way they should. For example, it still seems almost impossible to contact with regular chinese people, because they refuse to learn and speak english (or any other foreign language of matter, but english would be the obvious choice because of both being prime world language and being very easy to learn, at least the basics). As long as they don't embrace the world with acceptance, they will always struggle at these points and lack of acceptance themselves. | ||
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Rflcrx
503 Posts
On December 06 2010 23:09 kazansky wrote: For example, it still seems almost impossible to contact with regular chinese people, because they refuse to learn and speak english (or any other foreign language of matter, but english would be the obvious choice because of both being prime world language and being very easy to learn, at least the basics). I don't agree. The amount of english schools and students is insane. While I am often times disappointed by the progress a lot of people, there is a huge and growing number of people in China who speak acceptable english. | ||
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LedFarmer
United States161 Posts
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kazansky
Germany931 Posts
On December 07 2010 00:42 Rflcrx wrote: I don't agree. The amount of english schools and students is insane. While I am often times disappointed by the progress a lot of people, there is a huge and growing number of people in China who speak acceptable english. Ok, then they have a certain hidden skill of dodging those. But as I mentioned, it's just second hand information. They said apart from the guides themselves, no one was capable of speaking english. And this goes for front offices in hotels, guides at museums and stuff like that. Maybe those who learn english are all sent abroad. | ||
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TossFloss
Canada606 Posts
On December 06 2010 23:09 kazansky wrote: But also, Chinese don't sense their role in the context of the world the way they should. For example, it still seems almost impossible to contact with regular chinese people, because they refuse to learn and speak english (or any other foreign language of matter, but english would be the obvious choice because of both being prime world language and being very easy to learn, at least the basics). As long as they don't embrace the world with acceptance, they will always struggle at these points and lack of acceptance themselves. ESL is huge in China. Cities have hundreds of private English schools; and students from Grade 1 to university must study English as a required subject. Virtually everyone speaks some level of English, and many companies have ESL hiring requirements. | ||
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Rflcrx
503 Posts
On December 07 2010 00:58 kazansky wrote: Ok, then they have a certain hidden skill of dodging those. But as I mentioned, it's just second hand information. They said apart from the guides themselves, no one was capable of speaking english. And this goes for front offices in hotels, guides at museums and stuff like that. Maybe those who learn english are all sent abroad. I'd say it depends. In a hotel were westerners are frequent the staff should speak english (haven't found a 4 or 5 star hotel where they don't). However this is maybe not the best example, as the hotel staff usually has the stuff they "need to know" and everything else is a waste of talent. Same goes for guides at musuems or parks. 95% of tourists have a tour guide who does all the work and the total amount of western tourists is so little that it just isn't necessary to hire staff that speaks decent english. I would say that the amount of english speakers is still far lower compared to western countries, but you have to take a look at the history and factor in years and years of isolation. There is a strong desire to learn english, but the schoolsystem and the location of the country make this rather difficult. In time I think they will (and also want to) catch up. At least large parts of society, there is always a minority who believes that they don't need to learn a second language, but this part isn't, in my opinion, bigger than in any other country I have traveled so far. /e I wouldn't say that virtually everyone speaks english. Thats not even true for university students (I studied in tianjin for a year), much less for the common folk. ESL indeed is huge, but compared to the total population this is not as big as the numbers would suggest. And the salary of an ESL teacher actually is dropping/is not really good anymore. Chinese people are starting to joke about it (Are you an english teacher or do you have a real job?) and with wages around 10000~20000 rmb I can see why. | ||
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HeIios
Sweden2523 Posts
On December 06 2010 23:09 kazansky wrote: For example, it still seems almost impossible to contact with regular chinese people, because they refuse to learn and speak english Oh don't worry, soon enough we will all have to learn mandarin- Lets see how many of us westerners are able to become fluent  . | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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Scrapiron
74 Posts
On December 06 2010 10:20 Owarida wrote: What do you guys think about forced military service like SK has in America? Could help build some discipline, leadership, and national pride. All good things when considering growth of a nation. I agree and disagree with this. I agree with the statement that it would create leadership and national pride. Discipline, no. I served in the Navy and let me tell you, a good portion of the people in the military (I had plenty of time and experience with the other branches) are extremely undisciplined and if there is no leadership around can't keep their dick in their pants, literally. I mostly disagree with this for a couple reasons. 1.)Forced military servitude is basically telling people that they are owned by the state. If they can force everyone to serve in the military, they can force you to do anything else they please. While this may not actually happen, the precedent is set and open for them (the government) to exploit. 2.)Our military budget is already too high, the more people we have forced into the military the more our government will try to expand the empire. So it is just more money down the drain that is not being invested in maintaining or improving the infrastructure of our country. Many things could be said, but these are what stick out most to me. | ||
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Scrapiron
74 Posts
On December 06 2010 22:55 Danka wrote: Sup I have been to china 4 times this year for business reasons and my impression of the country´s drive towards bettering itself (reflected very much in each individual's dedication to work hard, for themselves and their country) match very well with what the OP is saying. Its gonna happen. But I am waiting for a subsequent revolution, or evolution. One that I won't see in my lifetime, when the words "competing countries" go out the window and the world finds a new understanding of progress. Basically I want to see the world stop thinking of its progress in terms of individual advances isolated under political boundaries but as a whole. Less us and them mentality and more everyone. I´m just a hippie I guess, but what sense does it make for our world to operate under political boundaries, with constant disputes. I find myself torn between a couple beliefs when I read this. I have lately been trying to convince myself, that thinking like this is correct. I was raised in a very "Us vs Them" mentality kind of household (hopefully I worded that in a way you can understand) and I think statesmanship is a really good thing. Believing in your neighbors and the strength of your country is one of those things that is beaten into your head as a kid. Really though, what defines neighbor? With the invention of the internet, trans international flight, and the "shrinking" of the globe; I believe the whole world is my neighbor at this point and I really wish we could all try and reach a common goal. I doubt this will happen in my lifetime (as you said) but a lot of things have been deemed impossible in the past, and this could just be one of those things that happens before we know it. | ||
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Scrapiron
74 Posts
On December 07 2010 01:45 HeIios wrote: Oh don't worry, soon enough we will all have to learn mandarin- Lets see how many of us westerners are able to become fluent . This is not a true statement. English is the language of the world (even though its really hard to learn apparently and has a lot of holes) and this is something that will not change just because China's GDP is high than the US's. Most of Europe, parts of Africa, Russia, most of North America and quite a few places in South America have a very large portion of people that speak English at least at a basic level. There is no reason for China to not just learn English as well (their international employees and such already do). | ||
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ShatterZer0
United States1843 Posts
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MahatmaSC2
United States192 Posts
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funk100
United Kingdom172 Posts
This is the real issue. we were scared. very. then we thought of africa and had a happy, more cheap plastic toys moment. crisis averted | ||
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clementdudu
France819 Posts
On December 07 2010 02:37 Scrapiron wrote: This is not a true statement. English is the language of the world (even though its really hard to learn apparently and has a lot of holes) and this is something that will not change just because China's GDP is high than the US's. Most of Europe, parts of Africa, Russia, most of North America and quite a few places in South America have a very large portion of people that speak English at least at a basic level. There is no reason for China to not just learn English as well (their international employees and such already do). French was the world's language for centuries,it changed with the shift of power,what makes you think its going to go otherwise with english? | ||
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chevron
United States9 Posts
On December 06 2010 10:05 Consolidate wrote: Overpopulation really isn't the problem. The solution to the problem is the issue China will need to deal with in the near future. The one child policy will lead to a rapidly aging workforce. Still, the policy if more favorable compared to India's electing to disregard overpopulation as a problem. Human rights issues in China are both overblown by the West and underestimated by the Chinese public. With the supreme goal of maintaining economic stability, China has little tolerance for unrest and often deals with it brutally. However, actual life in China doesn't feel like living under a police state. While corruption in is China is prevalent at the local level, the upper echelons of the government are fairly unaffected. The official policy and attitudes against corruption betrays no tolerance for such behavior. Corrupt politicians usually face Draconian measures. This last point is wrong. Corruption is not only local but systemic and reaches up into the peaks of Party Central. I'm not sure what you meant by "9 politburos" but I'm guessing you were referring to the Politburo Standing Committee. There is a great deal of controversy over the business affairs of current and former PSC members' family (see for instance Wen Jiabao's wife, also, Jiang Zhemin's family). There is no way corruption at that level gets reported, and your claim that "the upper echelons of government are fairly unaffected" is false. For more on this, see Richard McGregor's "The Party." Also, another point I'd have to disagree on is the "draconian measures" put in place to fight corruption. Every year, Hu Jintao and Wen Jiabao rally against corruption, promising change and sometimes even political reform--see Wen's controversial speech from earlier this year. However in actual practice there has been little movement against corruption. The few executions/prison terms you see of party bosses caught for embezzlement are show trials and the result of political infighting, not a real measurement of progress. The best example of this is the sacking of Chen Liangyu, Shanghai's party boss (a politburo level position) in 2006. Most commentators believe his removal was the result of Hu/Wen's maneuvering against the "Shanghai Gang", a powerful bloc in the Party led by Hu's predecessor and political rival Jiang. Moreover, the Party's Discipline and Inspection Committee is a means of factional competition between elites (again, see the sacking of the Shanghai party secretary), not a body that is empowered with really cracking down on corruption in any meaningful way. I think you are significantly underplaying the detriment corruption is having on the Party and its legitimacy in the eyes of the Chinese public. That said, I think the upcoming Congress in 2012 might offer some promise for change. | ||
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