EPTOnce they started getting their act together, there's no way it is sustainable for Americans to out-earn the Chinese by such margins. And since their population is much higher, it's just inevitable for their economy to surpass the US's someday. Japan is different because their population is smaller than the US.
The Rise of China and Fall of America - Page 8
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
Once they started getting their act together, there's no way it is sustainable for Americans to out-earn the Chinese by such margins. And since their population is much higher, it's just inevitable for their economy to surpass the US's someday. Japan is different because their population is smaller than the US. | ||
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denzelz
United States604 Posts
Though the finance and banking industry in the United States have, in my opinion, an unsustainable business model, the United States still has the technological advantage in many fields such as pharmaceuticals and alternative energy. The U.S. needs to focus on pushing its lead in these technological sectors rather than trying to compete with China for labor-intensive manufacturing jobs. | ||
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noproblem
United Kingdom161 Posts
But yeah sure, a country with a billion hard working enterprenuers is a scary and yet totally awe inspiring thing. | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4420 Posts
The entire worlds economy will grind to a halt but at least America will have plenty of useless consumer junk , i guess thats still better than having a useless mass of paper money and government bonds that aren't worth anything. No matter how much energy the green left think you can get out of solar or wind power , it will never be enough to replace the diesel engines on the massive trucks that carry around the shipping containers full of Chinese products or even the massive container ships that all run on diesel that bring that junk to our shores in the first place( 1 massive container ship = 50 MILLION cars : http://www.gizmag.com/shipping-pollution/11526/ ).The world economy will be more local in 30 years , globalization will finally die. Every economy is the world will be affected and war is a strong possibility. | ||
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barkles
United States285 Posts
On December 06 2010 17:35 Consolidate wrote: Hm. You're right. I apologize for generalizing the entire service sector. I should have said financial sector. That said I do feel American doctors are overpaid. Physicians benefit too much from the free market. The health-care industry in general grossly exploits the fact that people will pay pretty much anything to keep from not dying. Your honesty is very refreshing, but I'm afraid I have to take issue with your claims again. Even most people in the financial sector do good work. People save for retirement through the services provided by stock brokers, they need loans to start business that are made cheaper through the advancement of financial services, etc. Doctors, since they are part of the free-market system as you pointed out, are paid exactly as much as their services are worth. Many hospitals are non-profit, and many of those that aren't are within driving distance of another hospital (providing competition). For-profit hospitals aren't often the only hospitals in an area because they would have to provide for too many medicare/medicaid patients (which isn't profitable). Besides, the real issue is how this compares to the situation in China. If everyone in America could get a college degree and get one of these good jobs, this thread wouldn't exist. If the government could make a long term plan that would set economically sound tax and trade policies as well as making sure that kids from low income areas graduate high school and maybe even go to college, no one would have to worry about learning Mandarin or what the exchange rate is for USD to Chinese currency. | ||
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Consolidate
United States829 Posts
On December 06 2010 17:58 barkles wrote: Your honesty is very refreshing, but I'm afraid I have to take issue with your claims again. Even most people in the financial sector do good work. People save for retirement through the services provided by stock brokers, they need loans to start business that are made cheaper through the advancement of financial services, etc. Doctors, since they are part of the free-market system as you pointed out, are paid exactly as much as their services are worth. Many hospitals are non-profit, and many of those that aren't are within driving distance of another hospital (providing competition). For-profit hospitals aren't often the only hospitals in an area because they would have to provide for too many medicare/medicaid patients (which isn't profitable). Besides, the real issue is how this compares to the situation in China. If everyone in America could get a college degree and get one of these good jobs, this thread wouldn't exist. If the government could make a long term plan that would set economically sound tax and trade policies as well as making sure that kids from low income areas graduate high school and maybe even go to college, no one would have to worry about learning Mandarin or what the exchange rate is for USD to Chinese currency. Loans and financing are obviously a necessary service. The sort of financial products peddled to the average working American are pretty basic. You don't need a financial advisory to blindly invest in mutual funds. Most Americans shouldn't have their retirement funds in stocks at all - money you can't afford to lose should be in bonds. Goldman Sachs is the largest corporation in the world - bigger than GM, bigger than Microsoft. I know what GM produces, I know what Microsoft produces. What does Goldman Sachs do? They just...make money and make money with other people's money and charge them a free. Every now and then they help finance an IPO. The middle man deserves a cut, but not one close to size that investment banks receive. I'm of the opinion that healthcare should never be free market. The US has the most expensive healthcare in the world without even having the best. Whether hospitals are for or not for profit doesn't really matter. | ||
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Froadac
United States6733 Posts
On December 06 2010 10:29 meegrean wrote: Maybe the US should stop spending so much money on national defense... those are good money that could be used somewhere else. But then again, China has its own issues too. The question is why are we spending so much on defense. I don't think the EU is spending enough, on one hand, but where is all of our money going? | ||
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barkles
United States285 Posts
On December 06 2010 17:44 denzelz wrote: I know you high school kids can only think in black and white, zero-sum scenarios, but really, the modernization of China does not take away the ability for the United States to become successful. Though the finance and banking industry in the United States have, in my opinion, an unsustainable business model, the United States still has the technological advantage in many fields such as pharmaceuticals and alternative energy. The U.S. needs to focus on pushing its lead in these technological sectors rather than trying to compete with China for labor-intensive manufacturing jobs. The modernization of China doesn't take away the ability for the United States to be successful, and this is a point that many people need to take note of, but China's people are not going to stay in manufacturing jobs forever. In a few decades, Chinese workers will be writing software and not making toys; when that happens, they will be competing with other countries like the US for imported manufactured goods. If the US isn't growing, when China starts importing manufactured goods instead of exporting them the States might not be able to afford the price increase that comes with the increased competition. While this will PROBABLY be offset by advances in technology and other things, it's still worth considering that the growth of China into a country that resembles the US in its output could be bad for the US. | ||
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
On December 06 2010 17:35 Consolidate wrote: Hm. You're right. I apologize for generalizing the entire service sector. I should have said financial sector. That said I do feel American doctors are overpaid. Physicians benefit too much from the free market. The health-care industry in general grossly exploits the fact that people will pay pretty much anything to keep from not dying. To counter this it could be said that because of massive college debt doctors HAVE to make a lot | ||
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Rflcrx
503 Posts
On December 06 2010 14:56 synapse wrote: From my experience in China, this is pretty much true. I said this before in some other thread, but the people in China, for the most part, really just don't care about freedom of speech and the like. I wouldn't be so harsh. I would say they care less about freedom of speech and more about their social security/situation. However: I hear the "things are great" story often, yet I wonder why every year the number of (officially registered!) riots increase? ~3000 around 1992, and now we have something like 70000-80000 incidents per year. Going from really small stuff, often times started by local corruption (my father is Li Gang!) to big uprisings like in Xinjiang, Tibet or if I am not mistaken with the Hui people (at least I remember something happend in ~2006?). There is are also a lot of economical problems. Banks are lending way to aggressiv and thus far the government failed to stop this. The housing/real estate market is already a bubble (around 65million houses vacant and no slow down in the construction industry?!) and corruption is as bad as always, despite the fact that the ccp started to execute top officials for minor embezzlement. Some industries are heavily disrupted by the government. At least to my knowledge there is no real hd streaming site (or has youku or somebody else finally implented it). Why would there be one? With the lack of competition and the rather weak broadband network (this is more planned than people think) there is no use for such a technology (welcome to the year 2010). The same goes for general media, due to censorship but market rules it is difficult to develop an industry (TV, Movies, Webapplications, Magazines) that can compete on the international market (lawl@baidu japan). And yes, the chinese people are aware of this and the chinese netizens are very much active, despite all the censorship there are river crabs and grass mudhorses. Yes, it appears to have little effect, but it clearly shows dissatisfaction with the level of personal freedom as well as the injustice inside society. TL;DR: China is on the rise, America is going down, BUT things aren't all that great in China either. | ||
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Hasudk
Denmark78 Posts
On December 06 2010 18:03 Froadac wrote: The question is why are we spending so much on OFFENSE. I don't think the EU is spending enough, on one hand, but where is all of our money going? There I fixed it for you =) Wars are expensive as hell. Denmark has played a VERY small part in the wars in afghanistan and Iraq and its still taking a heavy toll on our relatively healthy economy. I think the common interpretation of the US military-budget is that it is a way to keep the US as the number one international power, despite losing the economic battle. The US with out its enormous military would honestly not be very different from Canada or Brazil, would it? | ||
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6642 Posts
On December 06 2010 10:55 zak wrote: america spends more on the military than the top 20 countries...combined. America is going nowhere...unless we get nuked off. Once WW3 hits the U.S. should rise out of the economic slump and back to being the steadfast superpower it is. That's what the Romans thought. On December 06 2010 11:29 clementdudu wrote: hihi there are two people(+me) in this thread that understand that China is not the biggest world power,by western standards. I see people saying that Uk dominated the world for three centuries before US.Try China dominated the world for two and a half millennia(yep Rome was nothing compared to China;)). The same way western people are convinced ancient Egypt was the beacon of civilization,when mayans were as if not more advanced. China never conquered another nation though or basically did anything outside of China, they didn't dominate the world at all. Also India was, for long periods of time, the most advanced and the largest economy in the world. On December 06 2010 10:45 happyness wrote: My point was that even though U.K. isn't a world power, it's still a good place to live and the people there have as high a standard of living as the U.S. The OP said america is fucked, which really isn't the case at all. Isn't a world power? China disagrees! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_National_Power Really though I doubt China is going to become the superpower of the 21st Century, the US may lose its #1 spot but not to China. China is in the process of creating the biggest bubble in history, they have an unparalleled gender imbalance, their entire economy is dependent on exports meaning if western companies decided to relocate everything to India or somewhere they would be fucked instantly, the vast majority of the population work in factories inhaling poisonous gases all day, eventually their population will be aging faster than Japan's, they don't have a blue water navy meaning they can't project their power, vast areas of the country are polluted and a lot of the water is poisoned and they've been fixing the books essentially, artificially enlarging their GDP and some top government officials even admit it. | ||
Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4420 Posts
On December 06 2010 20:27 jello_biafra wrote: Isn't a world power? China disagrees! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_National_Power Those types of things are worthless in an age of nuclear weapons. | ||
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Consolidate
United States829 Posts
Isn't a world power? China disagrees! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_National_Power Really though I doubt China is going to become the superpower of the 21st Century, the US may lose its #1 spot but not to China. China is in the process of creating the biggest bubble in history, they have an unparalleled gender imbalance, their entire economy is dependent on exports meaning if western companies decided to relocate everything to India or somewhere they would be fucked instantly, the vast majority of the population work in factories inhaling poisonous gases all day, eventually their population will be aging faster than Japan's, they don't have a blue water navy meaning they can't project their power, vast areas of the country are polluted and a lot of the water is poisoned and they've been fixing the books essentially, artificially enlarging their GDP and some top government officials even admit it.[/QUOTE] What sort of bubble are you talking about? Property values are fairly inflated, but 60% of homes in china are paid in full. The other 40% are financed with at least 30% down. | ||
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6642 Posts
On December 06 2010 21:22 Consolidate wrote: What sort of bubble are you talking about? Property values are fairly inflated, but 60% of homes in china are paid in full. The other 40% are financed with at least 30% down. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a4mPCXeGTl4Y | ||
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IamAnton
Canada335 Posts
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kamikami
France1057 Posts
Or the aliens will come and stop China... I won't accept to live in a society where the chance of mating with beautiful girls depends on whether your parents are communists or not. Fail system. User was warned for this post | ||
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sh02hp0869
Sweden460 Posts
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
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