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On November 24 2010 10:20 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 09:42 Frits wrote:On November 24 2010 09:08 Half wrote:
North Korea is not "absolute evil", because absolute evil doesn't mean anything. And Americans are certainly not "the good ones" theses days.
No nation is good. All nations, when it comes down to it, are entirely ruthless about protecting their interests, without any regard for morals or rights. What matters is which nation is more aligned with your values, and your interests, and you can't honestly fucking think that NK is preferable to the U.S. This is ridiculous, western society is built on morals and rights. If what you say is true we'd still be keeping slaves. Slaves are not economically profitable once the means distributing information and education in a society surpasses a certain point. I actually wrote an economics paper about that. But don't take my word for it take my sources ^_^
Are you implying that slavery didn't end out of moral considerations but rather due to becoming an economically inefficient resource as compared to other alternatives? That's pretty bold my friend.
Edit: Saw your edit. I disagree, not everything is driven by economic efficiency analysis. But I doubt you're going to be convinced unless I give a very fleshed out argument w/ examples and such. So we'll just end at that, becuase it's not worth the time to try to convince 1 person.
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On November 24 2010 10:16 TwoPac wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 10:01 johanngrunt wrote:On November 24 2010 09:42 Frits wrote:
This is ridiculous, western society is built on morals and rights. If what you say is true we'd still be keeping slaves. Also, America did not win WW2, Russia did. Russia never would've pushed the Germans back without American and British Aid. Also America won in the pacific theatre and merely allowed Russia to make it Berlin first.
ignorance.
90% of all german casualties in WW2 were against russian forces.
think about that for every 1 soldier that died from non russian soldiers. 9 more died from russians.
had hitler not broken their treaty with russia the outcome of the war would have been very different.
essentially had they kept their alliance with russia. all the soldiers that were fighting on the eastern front would have been able to fight on the western or at least the large majority. meaning france quite frankly could have been completely occupied by the germans.
it was the british australian and american armys that were getting shat on by the germans.
however since it was germany that lost. the schools today can spin whatever shit they want to the students and they will eat it all up.
and US allowed russia to take berlin? berlin fell before japan fell. so how can american be letting russia take berlin first if they are still preoccupied in the pacific.?
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As long as the guys at the OGS house are okay!
In all seriousness though, quotes like "Some U.S. forces had been helping the South Koreans in a military training exercises, but were not in the shelled area." off of CNN that go unnoticed are probably some of the most important for us American readers, being tied up in ANOTHER conflict is the last thing the US needs with problems across the world as well as in our own country.
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Saw your edit. I disagree, not everything is driven by economic efficiency analysis
I agree with you rofl, I never said contrary, but rather, why things happen can be accurately explained through economical analysis.
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Please end the world war two debates and the economic viability of slavery in non-agrarian economies bullshit.
This issue does deserve a topic free of retarded deviations.
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On November 24 2010 10:24 lvatural wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 10:20 Half wrote:On November 24 2010 09:42 Frits wrote:On November 24 2010 09:08 Half wrote:
North Korea is not "absolute evil", because absolute evil doesn't mean anything. And Americans are certainly not "the good ones" theses days.
No nation is good. All nations, when it comes down to it, are entirely ruthless about protecting their interests, without any regard for morals or rights. What matters is which nation is more aligned with your values, and your interests, and you can't honestly fucking think that NK is preferable to the U.S. This is ridiculous, western society is built on morals and rights. If what you say is true we'd still be keeping slaves. Slaves are not economically profitable once the means distributing information and education in a society surpasses a certain point. I actually wrote an economics paper about that. But don't take my word for it take my sources ^_^ Are you implying that slavery didn't end out of moral considerations but rather due to becoming an economically inefficient resource as compared to other alternatives? That's pretty bold my friend. Edit: Saw your edit. I disagree, not everything is driven by economic efficiency analysis. But I doubt you're going to be convinced unless I give a very fleshed out argument w/ examples and such. So we'll just end at that, becuase it's not worth the time to try to convince 1 person.
I don't think it's a coincidence that the abolitionist movement started around the same time as the British industrial revolution. I don't think it's a coincidence that the South fought so hard to maintain the system of slavery given how vital it was to their non-industrialized economy. Morals evolve in ways that are often frighteningly pragmatic.
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So basically, I have no idea what North Korea thinks that they're playing at. I sure hope they realize what a dangerous game they're starting here. I mean, if they go to far, the rest of the world could probably turn them into something resembling an underwater parking lot in about 10 minutes, but the surrounding countries would also feel the effects which is highly unfortunate
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Yeah...so maybe we can talk about North Korea and not WW2? Or slavery? Kinda like the whole point of the thread.
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Morals evolve ways that are often frighteningly pragmatic.
Right.
And just to clarify, I don't mean to say that our current set of morals was somehow artificially manufactured by a bunch of sinister, sadistic economists in some secret meeting somewhere, but as you said, have a tendency to evolve around the current economic situation.
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Korea (South)1897 Posts
On November 24 2010 10:20 lvatural wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 10:10 krndandaman wrote:On November 24 2010 09:46 lvatural wrote:On November 24 2010 08:29 krndandaman wrote:On November 24 2010 08:00 lvatural wrote:On November 24 2010 07:51 jinorazi wrote:i'm a traitor  my mom made me into an american citizen :O no jury duty yet!  If you had a dual citizenship between Korea and USA, then later relinquished your Korean citizenship for the USA when you turned 18, you can still get drafted in the SK army if you stay in Korea for too long a period. Just an fyi so you don't go on some summer trip in SK then get stuck in the military for two years. Edit: I think the rationale was to prevent Korean families to go to USA and have kids just to get around the mandatory military service. that's bullshit. so basically, you're an american citizen and when you go to korea they can just say "no you're serving in our army even if you may not know a single word of korean and you're a us citizen"? are you sure of this? Straight from the U.S. Department of State website regarding ROK. Doesn't happen all the time, but it's a possibility. A co-worker of mine gave me the heads up (since I fall in this category) when he read a news article about those guys getting drafted, yes these kids didn't know an ounce of Korean. So I'm making sure to contact the embassy before my next trip out there.
Since ROK regulations about compulsory military service and dual citizenship can be complex, we encourage you to contact the Republic of Korea Embassy in Washington or your nearest Republic of Korea consulate general with your questions about ROK-U.S. citizenship and military conscription.
There have been several instances where young U.S. citizen men of ROK descent, who were born and lived all of their lives in the United States, arrived in the Republic of Korea as tourists only to be drafted into the ROK army. At least two of these cases involved individuals whose names had been recorded on the ROK Family Relations Certificate without their knowledge. If you fall into this category, special processing may be required for you to visit the Republic of Korea; please contact a Republic of Korea embassy or a consulate to receive more information before traveling to the Republic of Korea
i've already seen that before. but no where does that say anything about those who renounced theirr korean citizenship. im planning on renouncing my dual citizenship this may well before my 18th bday. what you quoted, as far as i know, applies to those who never renounced their dual citizenship. On November 24 2010 09:57 MightyAtom wrote:On November 24 2010 09:46 lvatural wrote:On November 24 2010 08:29 krndandaman wrote:On November 24 2010 08:00 lvatural wrote:On November 24 2010 07:51 jinorazi wrote:i'm a traitor my mom made me into an american citizen :O no jury duty yet! If you had a dual citizenship between Korea and USA, then later relinquished your Korean citizenship for the USA when you turned 18, you can still get drafted in the SK army if you stay in Korea for too long a period. Just an fyi so you don't go on some summer trip in SK then get stuck in the military for two years. Edit: I think the rationale was to prevent Korean families to go to USA and have kids just to get around the mandatory military service. that's bullshit. so basically, you're an american citizen and when you go to korea they can just say "no you're serving in our army even if you may not know a single word of korean and you're a us citizen"? are you sure of this? Straight from the U.S. Department of State website regarding ROK. Doesn't happen all the time, but it's a possibility. A co-worker of mine gave me the heads up (since I fall in this category) when he read a news article about those guys getting drafted, yes these kids didn't know an ounce of Korean. So I'm making sure to contact the embassy before my next trip out there.
Since ROK regulations about compulsory military service and dual citizenship can be complex, we encourage you to contact the Republic of Korea Embassy in Washington or your nearest Republic of Korea consulate general with your questions about ROK-U.S. citizenship and military conscription.
There have been several instances where young U.S. citizen men of ROK descent, who were born and lived all of their lives in the United States, arrived in the Republic of Korea as tourists only to be drafted into the ROK army. At least two of these cases involved individuals whose names had been recorded on the ROK Family Relations Certificate without their knowledge. If you fall into this category, special processing may be required for you to visit the Republic of Korea; please contact a Republic of Korea embassy or a consulate to receive more information before traveling to the Republic of Korea
The main point is if your parents are still Korean citizens, if they are, you can still get drafted even if you hold american citizenship because in the eyes of the Korean gov't you still are fundamentally Korean. If your parents renounce their Korean citizenship and this is acknowledged by the Korean gov't this is generally fine, UNLESS, your name is on the family registry, then you're always at risk to be draft. It is complicated and if you overstay your visa by one day, bye bye, you going to the army. So in my case, if my parents were to take back their Korean citizenship, i'd be shipped to the army either the next day or within six months =). this seems fine because as long as you leave when your visa/vacation time is up, you should be fine. but from Ivatural's post, i felt like he was saying that during your vacation in korea you may be dragged into the army against your will. aka meaning that i can't visit korea without the possibility of being drafted out of nowhere He's probably right, but I'm still planning to contact the embassy before my next visit. A phone call (that'll probably take forever since it's the damn embassy :/) isn't too big a cost when it's compared to the possibility of getting drafted for 2 years. I'd still recommend talking to actual gov't officials instead of taking faith in a post from TL. Better prepared than sorry, and 2 years can pretty much alter the trajectory of your life.
Be aware though,
if Korea goes to war and you're here, all bets are off.
Be prepared to fight or flee to Busan.
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Don't panic too much people. We went through crazier shit than this. Here is a list of shits that NK had been doing on the peninsula for the last fifty years.
1. Tried to assassinate Park, South Korean president, by sending special agents across the border. It came quite close to the presidential building but foiled.
2. Ordered a Japanese Korean to assasinate Park again. He failed but killed Park's wife.
3. Killed American soldier around the DMZ area with an ax. (Tree cutting incident)
4. Tried to assasinate Chun, another South Korean president, when he was on trip to Burma. Failed to kill the president but succeeded in killing about 20 high government offcials.
5. Engaged in 3 naval battles in the last 15 years.
6. Sent 160 special agents in 1968 and 26 agents in 1996, causing fire fight.
7. Killed a South Korean civilian, in its "special" tourist area.
8. Tested a nuclear weapon.
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On November 24 2010 10:39 Half wrote:Right. And just to clarify, I don't mean to say that our current set of morals was somehow artificially manufactured by a bunch of sinister, sadistic economists in some secret meeting somewhere, but as you said, have a tendency to evolve around the current economic situation.
The Bible?
Has there been any big news since russia and china issued their statements of wanting to maintain peace?
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On November 24 2010 08:49 ELA wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 08:46 TALegion wrote:On November 24 2010 08:44 Craton wrote:On November 24 2010 08:39 DannyJ wrote:On November 24 2010 08:34 Siqk wrote:On November 24 2010 08:18 Frits wrote:On November 24 2010 07:44 lowlypawn wrote:
Start of WW3?
User was warned for this post how is that even possible when noone will back n korea Actually even though no other nation is allied with North Korea, Russia and China would not want anymore U.S. Military on their shore. They are pretty much are already angered (at least China is) with the situation when U.S. officials told everyone that U.S. Military will join South Korea's Military exercise at the Yellow Sea. When war between North Korea and South Korea happens U.S. will surely joins due to the fact U.S. will back up their ally which is South Korea.(This alliance is a treaty in which will come in effect if North and South Korea do go to war with each other.) If war happens between these two nations, China wouldn't want any refugees coming towards them and it would also be their responsibility to make sure this war would not cause their goals to slow down a bit. North Korea is the backyard of China so really they don't want anyone thrashing their backyard. Which brings us back to the point of how would even that start "WW3" What, would China invade South Korea or something? If anything China would back NK and the US would back SK and then it'd just snowball from there. In reality, countries would probably try to avoid being drawn into conflict. China doesn't want a war with the U.S. They want to avoid any way with us VERY MUCH. For them, it's a dumb idea to engage with us in war, when they can simply economically bleed us to death. China is heavily depending on their export to the west, mostly USA - Bleeding the US to death will be bleeding themselves to death as well
Last I checked the goods they send to us are something like 5% of their gdp.
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is it weird that i live in korea but i get my news updates from this thread?
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i'm watching the national assembly report and these politicians, hypocritical politicians are pissing the fuck out of me. they're ripping on Secretary of Defense, they're all pretty much pro-war. they're against how the president said "do not escalate the situation". saying that "decision making of high officials such as the president is very important".
i ask them, lets say we did attack north mainland with the f15 that was flying by, then what?
fcking a, korean politicians...sigh
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On November 24 2010 10:16 TwoPac wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 10:01 johanngrunt wrote:On November 24 2010 09:42 Frits wrote:
This is ridiculous, western society is built on morals and rights. If what you say is true we'd still be keeping slaves. Also, America did not win WW2, Russia did. Russia never would've pushed the Germans back without American and British Aid. Also America won in the pacific theatre and merely allowed Russia to make it Berlin first.
Russia "won" the European theater, and essentially WW2, there is absolutely no denying that. America came in and cleaned up the easy bits.
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On November 23 2010 17:58 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 17:53 tomatriedes wrote:On November 23 2010 17:24 T0fuuu wrote:
Im prolly gonna get flamed for this. But if I was North Korea watching an island on the border and saw KR/US soldiers rehearsing an invasion then I would be a bit paranoid as well. That's assuming that this incident wasnt a calculated attack with political motives and it was a response to a perceived invasion.
They knew in advance that it was a drill so there's no way they could have mistaken this for a planned invasion. Also these drills are held every year. NK seems to be flexing its muscles and usually the reason is the ruling party wants to get public support behind it. We tend to think that the NK leaders only do what they do to send a message to the outside world but actually often the action is also calculated to send a message to its own population. People are starving there again because the conservative SK government halted aid shipments after the sinking of the warship earlier this year. With acts of aggression the NK leaders probably hope to accomplish two things- one, as I mentioned before, is to divert the population's attention from their own starvation and worsening economic conditions and the second is to try and pressure the SK government into starting up aid shipments again. However I don't think it's going to work this time. The Lee Myeong Bak administration seems pretty determined not to cave into any sort of pressure from the north and not restart economic aid at least until the north apologizes for the Cheonan sinking and cooperates fully with nuclear inspectors from the UN. SK had ten years of liberal rule during which the 'sunshine' policy was used. This involved continuous aid shipments to and attempts to increase economic cooperation with the North no matter what provocative things they did in order to try and work towards eventual reunification. It seemed to work to some extent with less acts of aggression by the north and the relative success of north-south economic ventures within the north like the gaesong industrial complex and geumgangsan tourism. However it was also a failure as the whole time the north cooperated in some areas they were also secretly continuing to develop their nuclear program and there was no democratization and increased rights for it's citizens. In the end it seemed like all the aid shipments and economic help were just making the NK elites richer and doing nothing to change the attitudes of the leaders. The current conservative government is different and seems determined to call NK's bluff. No matter what aggressive acts the north pulls this time I don't think the current administration is going to compromise. In the end NK knows it can't win a war against SK and the US and China won't intervene if they are the aggressors so all they have is posturing. The US will most definitely intervene, but intervene on the side of SK. The US has an incredibly high amount of troops in SK for the purpose of defending SK and providing counterattack measures on the North to disrupt communications and nuclear capabilities. US supports SK stronger than almost any other nation in the world, save Israel (and maybe Japan).
Wow, way to misread what I wrote.
I meant NK cannot win against SK and the US.
I thought this was pretty clear.
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Osaka27157 Posts
On November 24 2010 11:05 DannyJ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 10:16 TwoPac wrote:On November 24 2010 10:01 johanngrunt wrote:On November 24 2010 09:42 Frits wrote:
This is ridiculous, western society is built on morals and rights. If what you say is true we'd still be keeping slaves. Also, America did not win WW2, Russia did. Russia never would've pushed the Germans back without American and British Aid. Also America won in the pacific theatre and merely allowed Russia to make it Berlin first. Russia "won" the European theater, and essentially WW2, there is absolutely no denying that. America came in and cleaned up the easy bits.
Tell that to the troops that took Omaha and Utah.
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That must have sucked. Although I don't think WW3 is going happen. China knows if it backs NK in this incident, world opinions going to turn against it. However, on the other side, declaring war on NK could be disastrous, because their leaders are pretty wacko, and they have a nuclear threat.
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EPT
