On November 24 2010 01:00 Cedwyn wrote: It seems illogical for the US to support SKR offensively in this conflict because they have nothing to gain. Plus I am sure most of the US civilians would concur that sending troops to an ally when they just got them from the East would be a strain on their country.
However other countries may lend a hand - probably not on the level of say the problems in the middle east, but more of a defensive aid to SKR (including the US in this case). I am sure SKR can handle their own given their radical growth over NKR.
But we all know this will blow over like the marine boat crap that happened a few years ago.
Hard to say how well South Korea would fair in a war against North Korea. While SK's military has a significant technological edge, manpower-wise, NK's military outnumbers them roughly 4 to 1. Given the obvious proximity between the two nations, a DPRK invasion would be a significant cause for concern.
There is an old saying in China, the most dangerous people are poor people (poor as in have nothing left to lose). So in a 1v1 fight, I think NK soldiers have a better chance.
I beg to differ, some examples below:
Knights templar vs anyone Nazi germany vs anyone Modern USA vs anyone Roman Empire vs anyone.
Technology and superior training has always made a tremendous difference in terms of army efficiency. Look up some kill/death ratios of most known wars, there are very few surprises in favor of the "inferior".
USA vs Vietnam? 5 UN Soldiers vs 1 suicide bomber?
On November 24 2010 00:28 Consolidate wrote: The issue of right or wrong isn't in dispute. The consensus feeling among the civilized world is that continued existence of the state of North Korea is a crime against humanity.
If they had oil deposits there's no doubt they would receive their doze of Democracy long ago, like Iraq and Afghanistan did. But luckily for them the outcome of this operation won't cover the expenses of the civilized world.
The reason why N.K is allowed to exist is China. China gets a massive amount of its Coal and Silicon from North Korea, and when North Korea has this regime in power it is very easy for China to get those resources for its growing economy.
Think of Civilization, if you have played it. When a city-state has a resources you need say, aluminum(in this case silicon) you just toss them a bunch of shitty low tech units (in this case artillery) and some gold and they hand that silicon, I mean aluminum, right over on a silver platter.
Then comes the city-state alerts:
"North Korea has a dispute with South Korea and seeks immediate Military action!"-"North Korea has a dispute with South Korea and seeks immediate Military action!"-"North Korea has a dispute with South Korea and seeks immediate Military action!"
China can ignore the messages for a long time, but after awhile China's will have to do something either giving N.Korea more gold and military units, or they will have to give in to the demand, or else they can't get that precious ALUMINUM mmm...
Unfortunately this is the real-world and not Civ(in Civ city-states don't attack one-another. In the real world fucked up regimes do what they want until the rest of the world stops them).
This factor along with the free-world governments having terrible economic macro and not being able stabilize the financial issues quickly enough could lead to a very horrible situation in the Korean peninsula.
My heart definitely goes out to anyone in or with loved ones in this ongoing crisis. <3
Do you have a source for outline-ing China and NK's trade agreements? I've had difficulty finding reliable information.
Hard time? I Try Google. China+North Korea+Trade+Silicon <- Free Tip
"China remains North Korea’s lifeline, its primary trade partner and link to the rest of the world."
“China is North Korea's most important ally, biggest trading partner and main source of food, arms and fuel,” said a 2009 report from the Council on Foreign Relations.
"limitations and U.N. sanctions from other countries don’t appear to be taking a big bite out of China’s continuing trade with North Korea. According to the Council on Foreign Relations, bilateral trade between the two countries increased 41 percent from 2007 to 2008, reaching $2.79 billion."
The sanction placed on North Korea actually cause them to go deeper and deeper in bed with China. The issues involved in this crisis are VERY deep.
You are misrepresenting the situation. China is not 'trading' with North Korea in a traditional sense. China is forced to provide the DPRK with food, fuel, and arms to keep them happy. It used to be the case that North Korea was valuable to China as a regional 'threat' against the likes of Japan and US influence in the area but that is no longer the case.
Your civilization city-state analogy was cute, but inaccurate. The article you cite actually supports this conclusion.
I'm not too too familiar with these international politics but it seems at first glance (if what you are saying is entirely true, sometimes we never know) then China may not be abandoning North Korea as a political play to keep North Korea from going ape shit and starting a world war? I would imagine if China were to just tell N.Korea to fuck off then N.Korea would feel completely alone and they would become very, very angry and start to use force to get their way.
Because it seems to me (again, no specialist on international politics) that there is not much left for China to get out of such a small and weak nation like N.Korea. I have a hard time believing China is out of touch and is just buddy buddy with N.Korea mostly for trade purposes. Then again I could be saying something that is well known to all of you and a revelation to me.
On November 24 2010 01:00 Cedwyn wrote: It seems illogical for the US to support SKR offensively in this conflict because they have nothing to gain. Plus I am sure most of the US civilians would concur that sending troops to an ally when they just got them from the East would be a strain on their country.
However other countries may lend a hand - probably not on the level of say the problems in the middle east, but more of a defensive aid to SKR (including the US in this case). I am sure SKR can handle their own given their radical growth over NKR.
But we all know this will blow over like the marine boat crap that happened a few years ago.
Hard to say how well South Korea would fair in a war against North Korea. While SK's military has a significant technological edge, manpower-wise, NK's military outnumbers them roughly 4 to 1. Given the obvious proximity between the two nations, a DPRK invasion would be a significant cause for concern.
There is an old saying in China, the most dangerous people are poor people (poor as in have nothing left to lose). So in a 1v1 fight, I think NK soldiers have a better chance.
I beg to differ, some examples below:
Knights templar vs anyone Nazi germany vs anyone Modern USA vs anyone Roman Empire vs anyone.
Technology and superior training has always made a tremendous difference in terms of army efficiency. Look up some kill/death ratios of most known wars, there are very few surprises in favor of the "inferior".
USA vs Vietnam? 5 UN Soldiers vs 1 suicide bomber?
the US suffered around 60k losses. North Vietnam suffered 1.1 million losses.
Go figure...
Statistics mean nothing when it comes to public opinion. The US certainly didn't "win" Vietnam, despite killing far more Vietnamese than the Vietnamese killed Americans.
Everywhere I went in Seoul today, people seemed so tense... Ahhh...~~.... I don't like this! It's a lot easier to talk about it when you're thousands of miles away, I think. :/
On November 24 2010 01:00 Cedwyn wrote: It seems illogical for the US to support SKR offensively in this conflict because they have nothing to gain. Plus I am sure most of the US civilians would concur that sending troops to an ally when they just got them from the East would be a strain on their country.
However other countries may lend a hand - probably not on the level of say the problems in the middle east, but more of a defensive aid to SKR (including the US in this case). I am sure SKR can handle their own given their radical growth over NKR.
But we all know this will blow over like the marine boat crap that happened a few years ago.
Hard to say how well South Korea would fair in a war against North Korea. While SK's military has a significant technological edge, manpower-wise, NK's military outnumbers them roughly 4 to 1. Given the obvious proximity between the two nations, a DPRK invasion would be a significant cause for concern.
There is an old saying in China, the most dangerous people are poor people (poor as in have nothing left to lose). So in a 1v1 fight, I think NK soldiers have a better chance.
I beg to differ, some examples below:
Knights templar vs anyone Nazi germany vs anyone Modern USA vs anyone Roman Empire vs anyone.
Technology and superior training has always made a tremendous difference in terms of army efficiency. Look up some kill/death ratios of most known wars, there are very few surprises in favor of the "inferior".
Why waste time on analogies when you can look at the specific case? North Korea has a considerable land army and is is within walking distance of South Korea's capital. Their military is well-trained and they have artillery, modern firearms and third-generation tanks.
This won't be like the US rolling over the Iraqi Republican Guard.
This is incredibly bad news. Overt military action from S or N Korea seems unlikely, but the threat of sanctions and military response from the US or China is definitely possible.
This seems like a bad idea from the DPRK. Shelling of enemy territory is definitely not the right response, and the amount of foreign animosity this has generated will definitely not be good for NK.
On November 24 2010 00:28 Consolidate wrote: The issue of right or wrong isn't in dispute. The consensus feeling among the civilized world is that continued existence of the state of North Korea is a crime against humanity.
If they had oil deposits there's no doubt they would receive their doze of Democracy long ago, like Iraq and Afghanistan did. But luckily for them the outcome of this operation won't cover the expenses of the civilized world.
The reason why N.K is allowed to exist is China. China gets a massive amount of its Coal and Silicon from North Korea, and when North Korea has this regime in power it is very easy for China to get those resources for its growing economy.
Think of Civilization, if you have played it. When a city-state has a resources you need say, aluminum(in this case silicon) you just toss them a bunch of shitty low tech units (in this case artillery) and some gold and they hand that silicon, I mean aluminum, right over on a silver platter.
Then comes the city-state alerts:
"North Korea has a dispute with South Korea and seeks immediate Military action!"-"North Korea has a dispute with South Korea and seeks immediate Military action!"-"North Korea has a dispute with South Korea and seeks immediate Military action!"
China can ignore the messages for a long time, but after awhile China's will have to do something either giving N.Korea more gold and military units, or they will have to give in to the demand, or else they can't get that precious ALUMINUM mmm...
Unfortunately this is the real-world and not Civ(in Civ city-states don't attack one-another. In the real world fucked up regimes do what they want until the rest of the world stops them).
This factor along with the free-world governments having terrible economic macro and not being able stabilize the financial issues quickly enough could lead to a very horrible situation in the Korean peninsula.
My heart definitely goes out to anyone in or with loved ones in this ongoing crisis. <3
Do you have a source for outline-ing China and NK's trade agreements? I've had difficulty finding reliable information.
Hard time? I Try Google. China+North Korea+Trade+Silicon <- Free Tip
"China remains North Korea’s lifeline, its primary trade partner and link to the rest of the world."
“China is North Korea's most important ally, biggest trading partner and main source of food, arms and fuel,” said a 2009 report from the Council on Foreign Relations.
"limitations and U.N. sanctions from other countries don’t appear to be taking a big bite out of China’s continuing trade with North Korea. According to the Council on Foreign Relations, bilateral trade between the two countries increased 41 percent from 2007 to 2008, reaching $2.79 billion."
The sanction placed on North Korea actually cause them to go deeper and deeper in bed with China. The issues involved in this crisis are VERY deep.
You are misrepresenting the situation. China is not 'trading' with North Korea in a traditional sense. China is forced to provide the DPRK with food, fuel, and arms to keep them happy. It used to be the case that North Korea was valuable to China as a regional 'threat' against the likes of Japan and US influence in the area but that is no longer the case.
Your civilization city-state analogy was cute, but inaccurate. The article you cite actually supports this conclusion.
I'm not too too familiar with these international politics but it seems at first glance (if what you are saying is entirely true, sometimes we never know) then China may not be abandoning North Korea as a political play to keep North Korea from going ape shit and starting a world war? I would imagine if China were to just tell N.Korea to fuck off then N.Korea would feel completely alone and they would become very, very angry and start to use force to get their way.
Because it seems to me (again, no specialist on international politics) that there is not much left for China to get out of such a small and weak nation like N.Korea. I have a hard time believing China is out of touch and is just buddy buddy with N.Korea mostly for trade purposes. Then again I could be saying something that is well known to all of you and a revelation to me.
China gets out of NK the same thing the Soviet Union got out of the Warsaw pact. a buffer zone from western influence, and a feeling of national security.
On November 24 2010 01:00 Cedwyn wrote: It seems illogical for the US to support SKR offensively in this conflict because they have nothing to gain. Plus I am sure most of the US civilians would concur that sending troops to an ally when they just got them from the East would be a strain on their country.
However other countries may lend a hand - probably not on the level of say the problems in the middle east, but more of a defensive aid to SKR (including the US in this case). I am sure SKR can handle their own given their radical growth over NKR.
But we all know this will blow over like the marine boat crap that happened a few years ago.
Hard to say how well South Korea would fair in a war against North Korea. While SK's military has a significant technological edge, manpower-wise, NK's military outnumbers them roughly 4 to 1. Given the obvious proximity between the two nations, a DPRK invasion would be a significant cause for concern.
There is an old saying in China, the most dangerous people are poor people (poor as in have nothing left to lose). So in a 1v1 fight, I think NK soldiers have a better chance.
I beg to differ, some examples below:
Knights templar vs anyone Nazi germany vs anyone Modern USA vs anyone Roman Empire vs anyone.
Technology and superior training has always made a tremendous difference in terms of army efficiency. Look up some kill/death ratios of most known wars, there are very few surprises in favor of the "inferior".
USA vs Vietnam? 5 UN Soldiers vs 1 suicide bomber?
On November 24 2010 01:00 Cedwyn wrote: It seems illogical for the US to support SKR offensively in this conflict because they have nothing to gain. Plus I am sure most of the US civilians would concur that sending troops to an ally when they just got them from the East would be a strain on their country.
However other countries may lend a hand - probably not on the level of say the problems in the middle east, but more of a defensive aid to SKR (including the US in this case). I am sure SKR can handle their own given their radical growth over NKR.
But we all know this will blow over like the marine boat crap that happened a few years ago.
Hard to say how well South Korea would fair in a war against North Korea. While SK's military has a significant technological edge, manpower-wise, NK's military outnumbers them roughly 4 to 1. Given the obvious proximity between the two nations, a DPRK invasion would be a significant cause for concern.
There is an old saying in China, the most dangerous people are poor people (poor as in have nothing left to lose). So in a 1v1 fight, I think NK soldiers have a better chance.
I beg to differ, some examples below:
Knights templar vs anyone Nazi germany vs anyone Modern USA vs anyone Roman Empire vs anyone.
Technology and superior training has always made a tremendous difference in terms of army efficiency. Look up some kill/death ratios of most known wars, there are very few surprises in favor of the "inferior".
USA vs Vietnam? 5 UN Soldiers vs 1 suicide bomber?
On November 24 2010 01:22 Consolidate wrote: It used to be the case that North Korea was valuable to China as a regional 'threat' against the likes of Japan and US influence in the area but that is no longer the case.
Thats actually untrue, NK is still a very valuable bufferzone for China. The quickest & safest ways into two important military centers of China are via NK. In case of a fullscale war those would have to be attacked via NK as there is no other good access point.
On November 24 2010 00:28 Consolidate wrote: The issue of right or wrong isn't in dispute. The consensus feeling among the civilized world is that continued existence of the state of North Korea is a crime against humanity.
If they had oil deposits there's no doubt they would receive their doze of Democracy long ago, like Iraq and Afghanistan did. But luckily for them the outcome of this operation won't cover the expenses of the civilized world.
The reason why N.K is allowed to exist is China. China gets a massive amount of its Coal and Silicon from North Korea, and when North Korea has this regime in power it is very easy for China to get those resources for its growing economy.
Think of Civilization, if you have played it. When a city-state has a resources you need say, aluminum(in this case silicon) you just toss them a bunch of shitty low tech units (in this case artillery) and some gold and they hand that silicon, I mean aluminum, right over on a silver platter.
Then comes the city-state alerts:
"North Korea has a dispute with South Korea and seeks immediate Military action!"-"North Korea has a dispute with South Korea and seeks immediate Military action!"-"North Korea has a dispute with South Korea and seeks immediate Military action!"
China can ignore the messages for a long time, but after awhile China's will have to do something either giving N.Korea more gold and military units, or they will have to give in to the demand, or else they can't get that precious ALUMINUM mmm...
Unfortunately this is the real-world and not Civ(in Civ city-states don't attack one-another. In the real world fucked up regimes do what they want until the rest of the world stops them).
This factor along with the free-world governments having terrible economic macro and not being able stabilize the financial issues quickly enough could lead to a very horrible situation in the Korean peninsula.
My heart definitely goes out to anyone in or with loved ones in this ongoing crisis. <3
Do you have a source for outline-ing China and NK's trade agreements? I've had difficulty finding reliable information.
Hard time? I Try Google. China+North Korea+Trade+Silicon <- Free Tip
"China remains North Korea’s lifeline, its primary trade partner and link to the rest of the world."
“China is North Korea's most important ally, biggest trading partner and main source of food, arms and fuel,” said a 2009 report from the Council on Foreign Relations.
"limitations and U.N. sanctions from other countries don’t appear to be taking a big bite out of China’s continuing trade with North Korea. According to the Council on Foreign Relations, bilateral trade between the two countries increased 41 percent from 2007 to 2008, reaching $2.79 billion."
The sanction placed on North Korea actually cause them to go deeper and deeper in bed with China. The issues involved in this crisis are VERY deep.
You are misrepresenting the situation. China is not 'trading' with North Korea in a traditional sense. China is forced to provide the DPRK with food, fuel, and arms to keep them happy. It used to be the case that North Korea was valuable to China as a regional 'threat' against the likes of Japan and US influence in the area but that is no longer the case.
Your civilization city-state analogy was cute, but inaccurate. The article you cite actually supports this conclusion.
I agree that China is not trading with N.Kr in the "traditional sense" obviously.
" It used to be the case that North Korea was valuable to China as a regional 'threat' against the likes of Japan and US influence in the area"
There has to be a reason why China allows N.Kr to exist if by your thinking N.Kr is only causing China problems.
And that reason is -> It still is a valuable trap card in China's Yu-gi-oh deck.
the US suffered around 60k losses. North Vietnam suffered 1.1 million losses.
Go figure...
Who won then you say?
There are no winners in war.
These events between N and S korea are terrible, but unfortunately i'm not surprised. As we all know, NK has been a ticking bomb for years. It was only a matter of time. I only hope this issue does not escalate.
On November 24 2010 01:25 Demand2k wrote: Knights templar vs anyone Nazi germany vs anyone Modern USA vs anyone Roman Empire vs anyone.
Okay, what about their ultimate fates? Knights templar - driven out by Saladin's forces and then by Khwarezmi Turks. Nazi germany - you gotta know it. Roman empire - invaded by barbarians. Modern USA - ... Well, not yet.
Saladin's forces weren't poor and the Knights Templar weren't exactly the elite fighting force that Hollywood has made them out to be. A good amount of their power and wealth was based in their number of supporters and the various businesses that they were involved in rather than actual military strength. Also, the Knights Templar were destroyed by the Church more than anyone else.
Nazi Germany was not defeated by poor people either. It was defeated by several major world powers. They pretty much rolled over everyone else.
Rome, by the time it was invaded by barbarians was long past its prime and already disintigrating. Before Rome collapsed on itself, it regularly put down rag tag armies with superior discipline, tactics, and weapons. There were a few notable exceptions, of course, but those are exceptions rather than the rule.
NOT liking this. It might evolve in something way worse. Because I don't know how to say good ol' words in english I'll just say it in polish while knocking on not painted wood. "Odpukać w niemalowane"
On November 24 2010 01:22 Consolidate wrote: It used to be the case that North Korea was valuable to China as a regional 'threat' against the likes of Japan and US influence in the area but that is no longer the case.
Thats actually untrue, NK is still a very valuable bufferzone for China. The quickest & safest ways into two important military centers of China are via NK. In case of a fullscale war those would have to be attacked via NK as there is no other good access point.
My point is that this used to be the case but times are changing. China's core concern at the moment is to maintain regional stability so as not to scare off foreign investments.
It is at the point where North Korea is more a liability than an asset. If China could wish away North Korea entirely they would, but they can't - so they can only appease at this point.
On November 24 2010 01:22 Consolidate wrote: It used to be the case that North Korea was valuable to China as a regional 'threat' against the likes of Japan and US influence in the area but that is no longer the case.
Thats actually untrue, NK is still a very valuable bufferzone for China. The quickest & safest ways into two important military centers of China are via NK. In case of a fullscale war those would have to be attacked via NK as there is no other good access point.
My point is that this used to be the case but times are changing. China's core concern at the moment is to maintain regional stability so as not to scare off foreign investments.
It is at the point where North Korea is more a liability than an asset. If China could wish away North Korea entirely they would, but they can't - so they can only appease at this point.
you make it sound like economics are the only concern of China. China still doesn't want south korean culture bleeding into its own. it doesn't want a nation with ideologies that strongly differ from its own next door. It would make thing far more complicated for them than dealing with a nation that they are used to dealing with.
On November 24 2010 01:22 Consolidate wrote: It used to be the case that North Korea was valuable to China as a regional 'threat' against the likes of Japan and US influence in the area but that is no longer the case.
Thats actually untrue, NK is still a very valuable bufferzone for China. The quickest & safest ways into two important military centers of China are via NK. In case of a fullscale war those would have to be attacked via NK as there is no other good access point.
My point is that this used to be the case but times are changing. China's core concern at the moment is to maintain regional stability so as not to scare off foreign investments.
It is at the point where North Korea is more a liability than an asset. If China could wish away North Korea entirely they would, but they can't - so they can only appease at this point.
You have a good point here. I think China has more control over NK's future than NK itself.
EPT
