On November 24 2010 00:28 Consolidate wrote: The issue of right or wrong isn't in dispute. The consensus feeling among the civilized world is that continued existence of the state of North Korea is a crime against humanity.
If they had oil deposits there's no doubt they would receive their doze of Democracy long ago, like Iraq and Afghanistan did. But luckily for them the outcome of this operation won't cover the expenses of the civilized world.
The reason why N.K is allowed to exist is China. China gets a massive amount of its Coal and Silicon from North Korea, and when North Korea has this regime in power it is very easy for China to get those resources for its growing economy.
Think of Civilization, if you have played it. When a city-state has a resources you need say, aluminum(in this case silicon) you just toss them a bunch of shitty low tech units (in this case artillery) and some gold and they hand that silicon, I mean aluminum, right over on a silver platter.
Then comes the city-state alerts:
"North Korea has a dispute with South Korea and seeks immediate Military action!"-"North Korea has a dispute with South Korea and seeks immediate Military action!"-"North Korea has a dispute with South Korea and seeks immediate Military action!"
China can ignore the messages for a long time, but after awhile China's will have to do something either giving N.Korea more gold and military units, or they will have to give in to the demand, or else they can't get that precious ALUMINUM mmm...
Unfortunately this is the real-world and not Civ(in Civ city-states don't attack one-another. In the real world fucked up regimes do what they want until the rest of the world stops them).
This factor along with the free-world governments having terrible economic macro and not being able stabilize the financial issues quickly enough could lead to a very horrible situation in the Korean peninsula.
My heart definitely goes out to anyone in or with loved ones in this ongoing crisis. <3
Do you have a source for outline-ing China and NK's trade agreements? I've had difficulty finding reliable information.
Hard time? I Try Google. China+North Korea+Trade+Silicon <- Free Tip
"China remains North Korea’s lifeline, its primary trade partner and link to the rest of the world."
“China is North Korea's most important ally, biggest trading partner and main source of food, arms and fuel,” said a 2009 report from the Council on Foreign Relations.
"limitations and U.N. sanctions from other countries don’t appear to be taking a big bite out of China’s continuing trade with North Korea. According to the Council on Foreign Relations, bilateral trade between the two countries increased 41 percent from 2007 to 2008, reaching $2.79 billion."
The sanction placed on North Korea actually cause them to go deeper and deeper in bed with China. The issues involved in this crisis are VERY deep.
On November 24 2010 00:28 Consolidate wrote: The issue of right or wrong isn't in dispute. The consensus feeling among the civilized world is that continued existence of the state of North Korea is a crime against humanity.
If they had oil deposits there's no doubt they would receive their doze of Democracy long ago, like Iraq and Afghanistan did. But luckily for them the outcome of this operation won't cover the expenses of the civilized world.
The reason why N.K is allowed to exist is China. China gets a massive amount of its Coal and Silicon from North Korea, and when North Korea has this regime in power it is very easy for China to get those resources for its growing economy.
Think of Civilization, if you have played it. When a city-state has a resources you need say, aluminum(in this case silicon) you just toss them a bunch of shitty low tech units (in this case artillery) and some gold and they hand that silicon, I mean aluminum, right over on a silver platter.
Then comes the city-state alerts:
"North Korea has a dispute with South Korea and seeks immediate Military action!"-"North Korea has a dispute with South Korea and seeks immediate Military action!"-"North Korea has a dispute with South Korea and seeks immediate Military action!"
China can ignore the messages for a long time, but after awhile China's will have to do something either giving N.Korea more gold and military units, or they will have to give in to the demand, or else they can't get that precious ALUMINUM mmm...
Unfortunately this is the real-world and not Civ(in Civ city-states don't attack one-another. In the real world fucked up regimes do what they want until the rest of the world stops them).
This factor along with the free-world governments having terrible economic macro and not being able stabilize the financial issues quickly enough could lead to a very horrible situation in the Korean peninsula.
My heart definitely goes out to anyone in or with loved ones in this ongoing crisis. <3
Do you have a source for outline-ing China and NK's trade agreements? I've had difficulty finding reliable information.
I hope he didn't get that from Civilization, cause that's the only thing he mentioned in there.
Upon closer reading, you seem to be right. Silicon is not a strategic resource at all and China and Russia have the majority of the world's coal reserves - something like 300 times what North Korea has to offer. Ugh, why do people try to force analogies that don't work.
On November 24 2010 01:00 Cedwyn wrote: It seems illogical for the US to support SKR offensively in this conflict because they have nothing to gain. Plus I am sure most of the US civilians would concur that sending troops to an ally when they just got them from the East would be a strain on their country.
However other countries may lend a hand - probably not on the level of say the problems in the middle east, but more of a defensive aid to SKR (including the US in this case). I am sure SKR can handle their own given their radical growth over NKR.
But we all know this will blow over like the marine boat crap that happened a few years ago.
Hard to say how well South Korea would fair in a war against North Korea. While SK's military has a significant technological edge, manpower-wise, NK's military outnumbers them roughly 4 to 1. Given the obvious proximity between the two nations, a DPRK invasion would be a significant cause for concern.
According to above link, NK has roughly twice as many troops. I doubt NK is a serious threat beyond their nuclear weapons. "Zerg"-based armies has turned horrible inefficient since the 60s.
On November 24 2010 01:00 Cedwyn wrote: It seems illogical for the US to support SKR offensively in this conflict because they have nothing to gain. Plus I am sure most of the US civilians would concur that sending troops to an ally when they just got them from the East would be a strain on their country.
However other countries may lend a hand - probably not on the level of say the problems in the middle east, but more of a defensive aid to SKR (including the US in this case). I am sure SKR can handle their own given their radical growth over NKR.
But we all know this will blow over like the marine boat crap that happened a few years ago.
Hard to say how well South Korea would fair in a war against North Korea. While SK's military has a significant technological edge, manpower-wise, NK's military outnumbers them roughly 4 to 1. Given the obvious proximity between the two nations, a DPRK invasion would be a significant cause for concern.
There is an old saying in China, the most dangerous people are poor people (poor as in have nothing left to lose). So in a 1v1 fight, I think NK soldiers have a better chance.
On November 24 2010 01:14 xDaunt wrote: South Korea would butcher North Korea's military if North Korea attacked. The terrain heavily favors defense. Just look at how many North Koreans/Chinese that the US killed during the Korean War. The real concern would be North Korea bombarding Seoul out of spite.
It doesn't matter that much when Seoul is in range of conventional artillery. It's not like they will have time to react to the invasion as there will be none. NK can just shoot over the border.
On November 24 2010 01:03 GrazerRinge wrote: How long is SK gonna let NK do that kinda shit?? When there is nothing left to blow up??? When SK becomes so poor as fuck like NK is now?
Srly, the politic of SK is just shitty as kespa...and i say it as legit Korean citizen...what makes me really sad...all these shits all the time and no solution although this issue is more then 3 6 decades old...
I mean about 9 years ago SK "bought" NK to sit on the table and have some "peace" talk what came out as the biggest bullshit what could ever happen.
SK has developed quite well in economical way. but since there were no master plan at all and all these happened in so short time, there is no clear structure there especially politics.
If you mods are gonna warn or ban me, go ahead, but i doubt there is no other way to describe the current situation then this way...really, when you research the recent history between SK and NK, you wont believe what kinda retarded shit has been going on. Just unbelievable
dude, im fairly sure its a deeper question than that.
1) if SK attacks, NK is not going to follow rules (i.e. im sure they wouldn't hesitate too much using nukes, which most other countries would use only as a last resort) 2) the SK and NK populace aren't actually separate people...many families are split between the countries purely because of circumstance. for obvious reasons, SK will therefore be hesitant to start a war where you might be shooting your friends and family.
i'm no expert on politics or history, and can't really argue with or against you. but really the problem is that NK is enough of a loose cannon that its difficult to either crush them or make peace with them, leading to the current (well, at least before yesterday) position of general inaction.
On November 24 2010 00:28 Consolidate wrote: The issue of right or wrong isn't in dispute. The consensus feeling among the civilized world is that continued existence of the state of North Korea is a crime against humanity.
If they had oil deposits there's no doubt they would receive their doze of Democracy long ago, like Iraq and Afghanistan did. But luckily for them the outcome of this operation won't cover the expenses of the civilized world.
The reason why N.K is allowed to exist is China. China gets a massive amount of its Coal and Silicon from North Korea, and when North Korea has this regime in power it is very easy for China to get those resources for its growing economy.
Think of Civilization, if you have played it. When a city-state has a resources you need say, aluminum(in this case silicon) you just toss them a bunch of shitty low tech units (in this case artillery) and some gold and they hand that silicon, I mean aluminum, right over on a silver platter.
Then comes the city-state alerts:
"North Korea has a dispute with South Korea and seeks immediate Military action!"-"North Korea has a dispute with South Korea and seeks immediate Military action!"-"North Korea has a dispute with South Korea and seeks immediate Military action!"
China can ignore the messages for a long time, but after awhile China's will have to do something either giving N.Korea more gold and military units, or they will have to give in to the demand, or else they can't get that precious ALUMINUM mmm...
Unfortunately this is the real-world and not Civ(in Civ city-states don't attack one-another. In the real world fucked up regimes do what they want until the rest of the world stops them).
This factor along with the free-world governments having terrible economic macro and not being able stabilize the financial issues quickly enough could lead to a very horrible situation in the Korean peninsula.
My heart definitely goes out to anyone in or with loved ones in this ongoing crisis. <3
Do you have a source for outline-ing China and NK's trade agreements? I've had difficulty finding reliable information.
I hope he didn't get that from Civilization, cause that's the only thing he mentioned in there.
Upon closer reading, you seem to be right. Silicon is not a strategic resource at all and China and Russia have the majority of the world's coal reserves - something like 300 times what North Korea has to offer. Ugh, why do people try to force analogies that don't work.
They may have 300 times what North Korea has, but when this regime (n.KR) is in power the Chinese can get those resources for 1/300th the cost of what the other countries charge. Note I never said they get ALL or even 75% or even 50% of their Silicon or Coal from n.KR but the resources they do get out of them end up being worth the headache.
And how is Silicon not a strategic resources? ITS in computers!
On November 24 2010 01:00 Cedwyn wrote: It seems illogical for the US to support SKR offensively in this conflict because they have nothing to gain. Plus I am sure most of the US civilians would concur that sending troops to an ally when they just got them from the East would be a strain on their country.
However other countries may lend a hand - probably not on the level of say the problems in the middle east, but more of a defensive aid to SKR (including the US in this case). I am sure SKR can handle their own given their radical growth over NKR.
But we all know this will blow over like the marine boat crap that happened a few years ago.
Hard to say how well South Korea would fair in a war against North Korea. While SK's military has a significant technological edge, manpower-wise, NK's military outnumbers them roughly 4 to 1. Given the obvious proximity between the two nations, a DPRK invasion would be a significant cause for concern.
On November 24 2010 00:28 Consolidate wrote: The issue of right or wrong isn't in dispute. The consensus feeling among the civilized world is that continued existence of the state of North Korea is a crime against humanity.
If they had oil deposits there's no doubt they would receive their doze of Democracy long ago, like Iraq and Afghanistan did. But luckily for them the outcome of this operation won't cover the expenses of the civilized world.
The reason why N.K is allowed to exist is China. China gets a massive amount of its Coal and Silicon from North Korea, and when North Korea has this regime in power it is very easy for China to get those resources for its growing economy.
Think of Civilization, if you have played it. When a city-state has a resources you need say, aluminum(in this case silicon) you just toss them a bunch of shitty low tech units (in this case artillery) and some gold and they hand that silicon, I mean aluminum, right over on a silver platter.
Then comes the city-state alerts:
"North Korea has a dispute with South Korea and seeks immediate Military action!"-"North Korea has a dispute with South Korea and seeks immediate Military action!"-"North Korea has a dispute with South Korea and seeks immediate Military action!"
China can ignore the messages for a long time, but after awhile China's will have to do something either giving N.Korea more gold and military units, or they will have to give in to the demand, or else they can't get that precious ALUMINUM mmm...
Unfortunately this is the real-world and not Civ(in Civ city-states don't attack one-another. In the real world fucked up regimes do what they want until the rest of the world stops them).
This factor along with the free-world governments having terrible economic macro and not being able stabilize the financial issues quickly enough could lead to a very horrible situation in the Korean peninsula.
My heart definitely goes out to anyone in or with loved ones in this ongoing crisis. <3
Do you have a source for outline-ing China and NK's trade agreements? I've had difficulty finding reliable information.
Hard time? I Try Google. China+North Korea+Trade+Silicon <- Free Tip
"China remains North Korea’s lifeline, its primary trade partner and link to the rest of the world."
“China is North Korea's most important ally, biggest trading partner and main source of food, arms and fuel,” said a 2009 report from the Council on Foreign Relations.
"limitations and U.N. sanctions from other countries don’t appear to be taking a big bite out of China’s continuing trade with North Korea. According to the Council on Foreign Relations, bilateral trade between the two countries increased 41 percent from 2007 to 2008, reaching $2.79 billion."
The sanction placed on North Korea actually cause them to go deeper and deeper in bed with China. The issues involved in this crisis are VERY deep.
You are misrepresenting the situation. China is not 'trading' with North Korea in a traditional sense. China is forced to provide the DPRK with food, fuel, and arms to keep them happy. It used to be the case that North Korea was valuable to China as a regional 'threat' against the likes of Japan and US influence in the area but that is no longer the case.
Your civilization city-state analogy was cute, but inaccurate. The article you cite actually supports this conclusion.
Shelling foreign soil is not an appropriate response to a military drill or even a test fire. An assult on foreign soil is a very serious military action even if it may not seem like it when you compare it to marching an army across the border, which is obviously more serious. Either way, however, it's an attack on a nation's sovereignty and an action that could easily result in an escalation to war. North Korea is well aware of this and it's pretty clear from their general pattern of behavior that this was a very deliberate attack to provoke a response.
I find it funny that they're complaining about things going on close to their border when they're the ones test firing missiles over foreign skies... Seriously, someone needs to put a stop to North Korean stupidity and I hope the bitchslap comes from the Chinese rather than the US just to show them how universally detested they actually are.
On November 24 2010 01:00 Cedwyn wrote: It seems illogical for the US to support SKR offensively in this conflict because they have nothing to gain. Plus I am sure most of the US civilians would concur that sending troops to an ally when they just got them from the East would be a strain on their country.
However other countries may lend a hand - probably not on the level of say the problems in the middle east, but more of a defensive aid to SKR (including the US in this case). I am sure SKR can handle their own given their radical growth over NKR.
But we all know this will blow over like the marine boat crap that happened a few years ago.
Hard to say how well South Korea would fair in a war against North Korea. While SK's military has a significant technological edge, manpower-wise, NK's military outnumbers them roughly 4 to 1. Given the obvious proximity between the two nations, a DPRK invasion would be a significant cause for concern.
According to above link, NK has roughly twice as many troops. I doubt NK is a serious threat beyond their nuclear weapons. "Zerg"-based armies has turned horrible inefficient since the 60s.
On November 24 2010 01:00 Cedwyn wrote: It seems illogical for the US to support SKR offensively in this conflict because they have nothing to gain. Plus I am sure most of the US civilians would concur that sending troops to an ally when they just got them from the East would be a strain on their country.
However other countries may lend a hand - probably not on the level of say the problems in the middle east, but more of a defensive aid to SKR (including the US in this case). I am sure SKR can handle their own given their radical growth over NKR.
But we all know this will blow over like the marine boat crap that happened a few years ago.
Hard to say how well South Korea would fair in a war against North Korea. While SK's military has a significant technological edge, manpower-wise, NK's military outnumbers them roughly 4 to 1. Given the obvious proximity between the two nations, a DPRK invasion would be a significant cause for concern.
There is an old saying in China, the most dangerous people are poor people (poor as in have nothing left to lose). So in a 1v1 fight, I think NK soldiers have a better chance.
I beg to differ, some examples below:
Knights templar vs anyone Nazi germany vs anyone Modern USA vs anyone Roman Empire vs anyone.
Technology and superior training has always made a tremendous difference in terms of army efficiency. Look up some kill/death ratios of most known wars, there are very few surprises in favor of the "inferior".
On November 24 2010 01:03 GrazerRinge wrote: How long is SK gonna let NK do that kinda shit?? When there is nothing left to blow up??? When SK becomes so poor as fuck like NK is now?
Srly, the politic of SK is just shitty as kespa...and i say it as legit Korean citizen...what makes me really sad...all these shits all the time and no solution although this issue is more then 3 6 decades old...
I mean about 9 years ago SK "bought" NK to sit on the table and have some "peace" talk what came out as the biggest bullshit what could ever happen.
SK has developed quite well in economical way. but since there were no master plan at all and all these happened in so short time, there is no clear structure there especially politics.
If you mods are gonna warn or ban me, go ahead, but i doubt there is no other way to describe the current situation then this way...really, when you research the recent history between SK and NK, you wont believe what kinda retarded shit has been going on. Just unbelievable
dude, im fairly sure its a deeper question than that.
1) if SK attacks, NK is not going to follow rules (i.e. im sure they wouldn't hesitate too much using nukes, which most other countries would use only as a last resort) 2) the SK and NK populace aren't actually separate people...many families are split between the countries purely because of circumstance. for obvious reasons, SK will therefore be hesitant to start a war where you might be shooting your friends and family.
i'm no expert on politics or history, and can't really argue with or against you. but really the problem is that NK is enough of a loose cannon that its difficult to either crush them or make peace with them, leading to the current (well, at least before yesterday) position of general inaction.
#1. MAD still applies. Don't think of NK as an irrational entity. They aren't(no nation is). They aren't gonna nuke for the heck of it. They would be nuked just as fast as they could launch one themselves. #2 is irrelevant. A civil war is still a civil war. you don't stop shooting because they are your family, you stop when the fighting is over. Its brutal, but its the truth.
On November 24 2010 00:28 Consolidate wrote: The issue of right or wrong isn't in dispute. The consensus feeling among the civilized world is that continued existence of the state of North Korea is a crime against humanity.
If they had oil deposits there's no doubt they would receive their doze of Democracy long ago, like Iraq and Afghanistan did. But luckily for them the outcome of this operation won't cover the expenses of the civilized world.
The reason why N.K is allowed to exist is China. China gets a massive amount of its Coal and Silicon from North Korea, and when North Korea has this regime in power it is very easy for China to get those resources for its growing economy.
Think of Civilization, if you have played it. When a city-state has a resources you need say, aluminum(in this case silicon) you just toss them a bunch of shitty low tech units (in this case artillery) and some gold and they hand that silicon, I mean aluminum, right over on a silver platter.
Then comes the city-state alerts:
"North Korea has a dispute with South Korea and seeks immediate Military action!"-"North Korea has a dispute with South Korea and seeks immediate Military action!"-"North Korea has a dispute with South Korea and seeks immediate Military action!"
China can ignore the messages for a long time, but after awhile China's will have to do something either giving N.Korea more gold and military units, or they will have to give in to the demand, or else they can't get that precious ALUMINUM mmm...
Unfortunately this is the real-world and not Civ(in Civ city-states don't attack one-another. In the real world fucked up regimes do what they want until the rest of the world stops them).
This factor along with the free-world governments having terrible economic macro and not being able stabilize the financial issues quickly enough could lead to a very horrible situation in the Korean peninsula.
My heart definitely goes out to anyone in or with loved ones in this ongoing crisis. <3
Do you have a source for outline-ing China and NK's trade agreements? I've had difficulty finding reliable information.
I hope he didn't get that from Civilization, cause that's the only thing he mentioned in there.
Upon closer reading, you seem to be right. Silicon is not a strategic resource at all and China and Russia have the majority of the world's coal reserves - something like 300 times what North Korea has to offer. Ugh, why do people try to force analogies that don't work.
They may have 300 times what North Korea has, but when this regime (n.KR) is in power the Chinese can get those resources for 1/300th the cost of what the other countries charge. Note I never said they get ALL or even 75% or even 50% of their Silicon or Coal from n.KR but the resources they do get out of them end up being worth the headache.
Do you have any idea what silicon is? Silicon is not processed from a rare ore or limited resource. It is made from quartz; also known as sand...
On November 24 2010 01:00 Cedwyn wrote: It seems illogical for the US to support SKR offensively in this conflict because they have nothing to gain. Plus I am sure most of the US civilians would concur that sending troops to an ally when they just got them from the East would be a strain on their country.
However other countries may lend a hand - probably not on the level of say the problems in the middle east, but more of a defensive aid to SKR (including the US in this case). I am sure SKR can handle their own given their radical growth over NKR.
But we all know this will blow over like the marine boat crap that happened a few years ago.
Hard to say how well South Korea would fair in a war against North Korea. While SK's military has a significant technological edge, manpower-wise, NK's military outnumbers them roughly 4 to 1. Given the obvious proximity between the two nations, a DPRK invasion would be a significant cause for concern.
According to above link, NK has roughly twice as many troops. I doubt NK is a serious threat beyond their nuclear weapons. "Zerg"-based armies has turned horrible inefficient since the 60s.
Look at the reserve numbers.
If you factor those, then NK's manpower advantage is reduced to around 10%...
On November 24 2010 01:25 Demand2k wrote: Knights templar vs anyone Nazi germany vs anyone Modern USA vs anyone Roman Empire vs anyone.
Okay, what about their ultimate fates? Knights templar - driven out by Saladin's forces and then by Khwarezmi Turks. Nazi germany - you gotta know it. Roman empire - invaded by barbarians. Modern USA - ... Well, not yet.
On November 24 2010 01:00 Cedwyn wrote: It seems illogical for the US to support SKR offensively in this conflict because they have nothing to gain. Plus I am sure most of the US civilians would concur that sending troops to an ally when they just got them from the East would be a strain on their country.
However other countries may lend a hand - probably not on the level of say the problems in the middle east, but more of a defensive aid to SKR (including the US in this case). I am sure SKR can handle their own given their radical growth over NKR.
But we all know this will blow over like the marine boat crap that happened a few years ago.
Hard to say how well South Korea would fair in a war against North Korea. While SK's military has a significant technological edge, manpower-wise, NK's military outnumbers them roughly 4 to 1. Given the obvious proximity between the two nations, a DPRK invasion would be a significant cause for concern.
There is an old saying in China, the most dangerous people are poor people (poor as in have nothing left to lose). So in a 1v1 fight, I think NK soldiers have a better chance.
I beg to differ, some examples below:
Knights templar vs anyone Nazi germany vs anyone Modern USA vs anyone Roman Empire vs anyone.
Technology and superior training has always made a tremendous difference in terms of army efficiency. Look up some kill/death ratios of most known wars, there are very few surprises in favor of the "inferior".
USA vs Vietnam? 5 UN Soldiers vs 1 suicide bomber?
On November 24 2010 01:00 Cedwyn wrote: It seems illogical for the US to support SKR offensively in this conflict because they have nothing to gain. Plus I am sure most of the US civilians would concur that sending troops to an ally when they just got them from the East would be a strain on their country.
However other countries may lend a hand - probably not on the level of say the problems in the middle east, but more of a defensive aid to SKR (including the US in this case). I am sure SKR can handle their own given their radical growth over NKR.
But we all know this will blow over like the marine boat crap that happened a few years ago.
Hard to say how well South Korea would fair in a war against North Korea. While SK's military has a significant technological edge, manpower-wise, NK's military outnumbers them roughly 4 to 1. Given the obvious proximity between the two nations, a DPRK invasion would be a significant cause for concern.
South Korea would butcher North Korea's military if North Korea attacked. The terrain heavily favors defense. Just look at how many North Koreans/Chinese that the US killed during the Korean War. The real concern would be North Korea bombarding Seoul out of spite.
Seoul would probably get flattened though. It's close enough to the DMZ and within range of NK missiles and artillery. SK doesn't want an all-out war at all. It's like mutually assured destruction but on a smaller scale.
EPT
