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On November 11 2010 18:15 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +Asian kids, meanwhile, say they are resented for taking the spots of white kids. “At graduation a Canadian—i.e. ‘white’—mother told me that I’m the reason her son didn’t get a space in university and that all the immigrants in the country are taking up university spots,” says Frankie Mao, a 22-year-old arts student at the University of British Columbia. “I knew it was wrong, being generalized in this category,” says Mao, “but f–k, I worked hard for it.” Probably a blessing in disguise. Canadian kid who missed out on arts school has more chance getting a non-arts related jobs than an arts one (if he achieved the arts degree) not to mention the debt load of getting the arts degree (did i mention theres hardly any jobs at the end of that degree?)
Yeah, I saw that. Then again, there are plenty of useless degrees to go around and if kids go into undergrad merely for the 'experience' of it, I really hope they're not surprised in the end.
I remember posting on another TL thread about going for your dreams and the eventual topic of degree value came up. This article kind of went into it with engineering but not so much.
After sharing it with some people on Facebook and re-reading it, I do understand why they retracted it. It was simply too blunt and many of the comments on it are calling it flat out racist.
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On November 11 2010 18:38 nihoh wrote:
Doesn't matter a fuck what colour and race you are. Dumb shit is dumb shit. I'm sure alot of Asian students don't bother even lifting a pen and get into better uni's than whites. Take me for an example. I didn't do shit in Year 12 and I got into a competitive course in Australia. And i'm proabbly hte laziest cunt in my year right now.
I didn;t study at all and went hardcore CS gaming all my high school life. Now im in a top 40 school in a top course that requires 97 UAI/ATAR whatever they call it now. How the hell did that happen, we will never know lol.
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As the United States progresses towards decadent meritocracy, it should come as no surprise that the oriental thrives in the environment, for it so nearly replicates the rigid and impersonal Confucian bureaucracy of his ancestors.
It is a world to which all his native instincts are drawn. All the ancient Confucian attitudes about the supremacy of education, en rote learning, familial obligation, hierarchal intellectual authority, can be comfortably translated to modern America in a clean and tidy way. Like his ancestor, perhaps a prodigal son of ancient peasantry who connived through education to become an Imperial Mandarin, so does he now, son of hard-nosed immigrants, connive through the same to the same purpose. His rustic blood commands his instincts towards a comfortable mediocrity, and there he is content to stay.
An overripe and effete civilization works for him.
Two centuries ago, he would have made a poor frontiersman. Two centuries from now, he will have trouble adapting to new chaotic conditions which the future will bring. All fortune to him for having been born here and now!
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Wow, maybe things are different in the US where the Asian demographics tend to be different (i.e. more Koreans and Taiwanese, less mainlanders and hongers, percentage-wise), but I knew plenty of Asians in college who went by the mantra "work hard, play hard." Of course, in high school, it's mostly just "work hard" given the intense pressure to do well to get to college, but for most Asians, college is the final destination as far as education goes.
edit: FYI, Canadians, "college" also refers to university in the US.
While I don't have complete liberty to speak on behalf of Asians in general, being white and all, but I will say this. Real or not, the preconceived notion of different admissions standards definitely had my girl freaked out when she was looking into law school. I tried to coach her through it since I'm a 2L and had just gone through the process a year earlier at that time. But obviously there was a different concern than I went through. Even if a lot of it is mental the stress it causes is pretty real.
Law school admission standards for Asians are, I believe, the same level as for Whites. You do get a huge boost for being Black or Latino, though.
For undergrad, I recall you effectively get a 100 point SAT penalty for being Asian rather than white. It's especially odd that a school like Yale (which has affirmative action) has something like 15% Asians while a school like Berkeley (which doesn't) is closer to 50%. The private elite schools refuse to go by pure merit essentially because of the fear of "Asianization." It sucks, and I'm sad Asians don't make more of a stink about it (though we have very little political pressure), but that's the way it is.
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OP is a gaffer.
Just sayin
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I respect certain cultures if they are worthy of respect. Asian cultures prioritize hard work and achievement over other things and i really wish from the bottom of my heart that other cultures would follow suite.
Personally, think Asians are mocked for the same reasons Jews are; simple insecurity and jealousy. Both cultures have demonstrated that they put success over other bullshit and I hold that in high esteem. The West could learn a lot from them.
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Asians are awesome. During my foreign study the nicest people are asians.. korean, chinese.. I have yet to meet japanese. Also my Australian friend is cool. Some other people from europe just suck, are messy, and have too high ego. Asians are humble and tidy. Ah, I should've been born in Asia.. 
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I'm Asian, so the majority of my family friends are Asians also. I have to say, I hate the holiday season simply because I must integrate myself with some of the most vapid people I have ever met in my life. The parties are horrible, all the parents do is brag about their child's academic achievements, and all the children do, whether they be 5, 15, or 20, is sit in a corner and escape into the electronic worlds of their iPod, Laptop, Xbox, etc.
Valuing an education is fine, same with the belief that clubbing all day is non conducive to the preparation of a college student to become an adult. But the overvaluing of education, just like drug dependency is non conducive to the adult world as well. Because of Asian households, I have witnessed two types of kids arise. The ones who cracked under the pressure of their academically demanding parents and now do MDMA on an bidaily basis, or those who complaisantly followed their parents orders and have become complaisant college students who's only purpose in life is to be their parents trophy child when we all get together for Thanksgiving or Christmas.
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On November 11 2010 20:19 vohne wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 18:38 nihoh wrote:
Doesn't matter a fuck what colour and race you are. Dumb shit is dumb shit. I'm sure alot of Asian students don't bother even lifting a pen and get into better uni's than whites. Take me for an example. I didn't do shit in Year 12 and I got into a competitive course in Australia. And i'm proabbly hte laziest cunt in my year right now. I didn;t study at all and went hardcore CS gaming all my high school life. Now im in a top 40 school in a top course that requires 97 UAI/ATAR whatever they call it now. How the hell did that happen, we will never know lol.
actually it's all genetics, with some luck knowing the right people etc.
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I think the real question Macleans should be asking is not "how do we make Asians drink and club more" but instead "how do we make North American-born whites value education more than drinking and clubbing and sports".
This is where the issue lies. When they are not willing to give up partying for studying, they clearly don't value education more than "social events". Tracing back to high school, or even middle school years, when has a straight-A student been more popular than a basketball star, QB, or cheerleader captain?
We can also agree that the education systems between Eastern Asia and North America regions are very different, with the Eastern Asia region being focused on studying rather than social events. When you have the best of them immigrate to NA, how do you expect the students in NA education environment to compete academically? Those Asians have many years of "head-start" in this rigorous and stressful academic situation.
If you can't beat them at their own game, then beat them in my own turf. Instead of breaking their head trying to study harder than Asians, they focus on building social network, which will help immensely in finding a job in NA.
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I skip parties to play sc all the time =( playing right into the stereotype. oh well!
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On November 11 2010 12:09 Reason.SC2 wrote:
Tangent:
There is a downside to the type of single-minded over-achiever culture that dominates these competitive schools. I have heard this from recruiters first hand and some very reputable big-name companies (which I will not mention) are beginning to take note:
A lot of the over-achievers work very hard to get where they're at. This comes at a cost though most of the time: underdeveloped social skills and emotional maturity can make this type of person very undesirable to work with, and bottom line less productive in a real job environment despite the good grades and know-how.
This of course has nothing to do with someone being Asian or not as single-minded study monsters that overachieve throughout the education process can be of any race or creed. More so it is to say that the "big-name" schools, which people compete to get into so that they can study 24/7 to be able to keep up with their class, are not nearly as desirable as they are made out to be.
Especially today where an undergrad degree is pretty much as useful as a roll of toilet paper... what matters most is where you *finish*. IMO to anyone reading this considering university, go to a school that will be less competitive. Focus on doing well there but don't forget to develop your social skills and personal maturity through having meaningful life experiences that go beyond getting an A+ in chem 101 or being an 'executive member' at the law and society club. Make sure that the school you go to for your Masters/PHD (or law school/med school, etc.) has a good reputation and really put in the work there... but for gods sake you're wasting time if you think an undergrad degree at a reputable school where you have to enslave yourself to books is worth anything.
You cannot deny the reputation of the university has a great impact in graduate school or job applications.
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My dad is a doctor and one of his partners is korean. The man's mother died so he went back to Korea for the funeral. When he came back he asked him how he was doing and about the funeral and the first thing he said was "pressure's off." I admire the hard work of many asian students and wish I could do what they do, but to me something like this is just sad for someone who has long since left their home. The pressure to succeed seems almost unbearable to me.
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White people are often lazy and want to take credit for things they haven't done.
"What, you mean I have to work harder now ?"
User was warned for this post
Edit: I didn't mean to be racist at all by this remark, although the way it was written it does appear quite racist. I do apologise. I'm just referring to situations like the one quoted in the OP:
“At graduation a Canadian—i.e. ‘white’—mother told me that I’m the reason her son didn’t get a space in university and that all the immigrants in the country are taking up university spots,” says Frankie Mao, a 22-year-old arts student at the University of British Columbia. “I knew it was wrong, being generalized in this category,” says Mao, “but f–k, I worked hard for it.”
Those kinds of comments really anger me.
Again, sorry for my comment.
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On November 12 2010 04:25 nosliw wrote:
You cannot deny the reputation of the university has a great impact in graduate school or job applications.
Reading a biography about a famous Oxford grad who assures that the degree itself didn't help him much, but that the experience and connections and friendships he made there did. I've also had people apply to entry level jobs technician/assistant with ivy league educations and no experience, and not hiring them based on lack of experience and what a colleague feels is "flight risk".
I think that reputation only matters if you went to a place like Oxford or Harvard, and even then not so much. I think that Grad schools differ based on type. Medical schools I applied to were mostly interested in extra curricular stuff and personality (once you're past the MCAT and GPA thing). Master's level and PhD science programs seemed to ask mostly about my research experience and ideas about what I wanted to do.
I'd be curious to hear what Law Schools ask potential students about? Any law students doing interviews right now? 'Tis the season
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I think one of the bigger things to look at with university is that grades don't matter as long as you pass. If you pass with 55% or with 95% you still only have say a BCom(or BA or BCS, etc...) on your resume. The real question is did the 55% student do other things with high time at university? Work, Co-op, volunteering, student associations, clubs, sports, etc...
So what is happening is your having students who come to university, get 95% and leave with nothing else. This reflects poorly on the student (no employer is going to ask "so what grade did you get in ADM 1104?"), and it reflects poorly on the school.
How does it reflect poorly on the school? Well businesses recruit from schools (for example RBC exclusively recruits from the University of Ottawa), if a school cannot put out students that are both book smart and street smart then what use is that educational institution?
Its great and all to get 90's but if you have no social life, that detracts from your eligibility as an employee as well as your desirability as a student. So they fudge numbers, they get less Asians in, and they get a more diverse student body, which means the school can offer a more diverse set of students to employers and can get them nice recruitment contracts because their students offered are of a higher quality.
The only times that grades matter in school is if you want to get into grad studies (med school, law school, Masters degree, etc...) and even then, once you are in, everything after that depends on your social skills.
A more sociable doctor is less likely to be sued
A more charismatic lawyer is more likely to win their case
A more confident business person is more likely to seal a deal
Knowledge is only part of the reason you go to university, the rest is to learn life skills to be a productive member of society. If you don't do both then you aren't as strong of a member of society as many other students that do get social skills as well as knowledge even if their CGPA is 30% lower than yours.
I mean heck for me, I'm a Finance student, 99.999999999% of everything I learn in University is 100% useless. Every formula they force me to memorize there is a computer program that does it. Is there any point in my life that I'm ever going to need to calculate a NPV, beta, CI, etc... by hand? Hell no. You learn it simply to say that you can.
The paper you come out with says "this person can learn stuffs" it doesn't matter how well you can memorize a text book, that is what intranets, the internet, and computer programs are for.
But if you cannot talk to another human being, if you cannot be sociable at a restaurant meeting, or at the bar/club after wards then you wont get very far...
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On November 12 2010 04:41 Zorkmid wrote:
I'd be curious to hear what Law Schools ask potential students about? Any law students doing interviews right now? 'Tis the season
Law schools don't do interviews. They only care about two things:
- LSAT
- GPA (weighted by school, so an average GPA at Harvard/Princeton/Yale >> average GPA at some no-name school)
Sometimes they care a bit about any post-undergrad experience.
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I don't know anyone with good marks who can't talk to people. Sometimes I think it's a myth that those people exist. In my experience people can have 90s and a social life of some kind, and be approachable and comfortable speaking to random people in and around school.
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On November 12 2010 04:54 Insanious wrote:
I think one of the bigger things to look at with university is that grades don't matter as long as you pass. If you pass with 55% or with 95% you still only have say a BCom(or BA or BCS, etc...) on your resume. The real question is did the 55% student do other things with high time at university? Work, Co-op, volunteering, student associations, clubs, sports, etc...
So what is happening is your having students who come to university, get 95% and leave with nothing else. This reflects poorly on the student (no employer is going to ask "so what grade did you get in ADM 1104?"), and it reflects poorly on the school.
How does it reflect poorly on the school? Well businesses recruit from schools (for example RBC exclusively recruits from the University of Ottawa), if a school cannot put out students that are both book smart and street smart then what use is that educational institution?
Its great and all to get 90's but if you have no social life, that detracts from your eligibility as an employee as well as your desirability as a student. So they fudge numbers, they get less Asians in, and they get a more diverse student body, which means the school can offer a more diverse set of students to employers and can get them nice recruitment contracts because their students offered are of a higher quality.
The only times that grades matter in school is if you want to get into grad studies (med school, law school, Masters degree, etc...) and even then, once you are in, everything after that depends on your social skills.
A more sociable doctor is less likely to be sued
A more charismatic lawyer is more likely to win their case
A more confident business person is more likely to seal a deal
Knowledge is only part of the reason you go to university, the rest is to learn life skills to be a productive member of society. If you don't do both then you aren't as strong of a member of society as many other students that do get social skills as well as knowledge even if their CGPA is 30% lower than yours.
I mean heck for me, I'm a Finance student, 99.999999999% of everything I learn in University is 100% useless. Every formula they force me to memorize there is a computer program that does it. Is there any point in my life that I'm ever going to need to calculate a NPV, beta, CI, etc... by hand? Hell no. You learn it simply to say that you can.
The paper you come out with says "this person can learn stuffs" it doesn't matter how well you can memorize a text book, that is what intranets, the internet, and computer programs are for.
But if you cannot talk to another human being, if you cannot be sociable at a restaurant meeting, or at the bar/club after wards then you wont get very far...
Actually I get asked a lot about my GPA and Engineering course marks when I was interviewing for graduate jobs. It is even more important to have good grades, if you are looking for co-op jobs as well unless you think you can compete without co-op or any work experience.
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On November 12 2010 05:04 FishForThought wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 12 2010 04:54 Insanious wrote:
I think one of the bigger things to look at with university is that grades don't matter as long as you pass. If you pass with 55% or with 95% you still only have say a BCom(or BA or BCS, etc...) on your resume. The real question is did the 55% student do other things with high time at university? Work, Co-op, volunteering, student associations, clubs, sports, etc...
So what is happening is your having students who come to university, get 95% and leave with nothing else. This reflects poorly on the student (no employer is going to ask "so what grade did you get in ADM 1104?"), and it reflects poorly on the school.
How does it reflect poorly on the school? Well businesses recruit from schools (for example RBC exclusively recruits from the University of Ottawa), if a school cannot put out students that are both book smart and street smart then what use is that educational institution?
Its great and all to get 90's but if you have no social life, that detracts from your eligibility as an employee as well as your desirability as a student. So they fudge numbers, they get less Asians in, and they get a more diverse student body, which means the school can offer a more diverse set of students to employers and can get them nice recruitment contracts because their students offered are of a higher quality.
The only times that grades matter in school is if you want to get into grad studies (med school, law school, Masters degree, etc...) and even then, once you are in, everything after that depends on your social skills.
A more sociable doctor is less likely to be sued
A more charismatic lawyer is more likely to win their case
A more confident business person is more likely to seal a deal
Knowledge is only part of the reason you go to university, the rest is to learn life skills to be a productive member of society. If you don't do both then you aren't as strong of a member of society as many other students that do get social skills as well as knowledge even if their CGPA is 30% lower than yours.
I mean heck for me, I'm a Finance student, 99.999999999% of everything I learn in University is 100% useless. Every formula they force me to memorize there is a computer program that does it. Is there any point in my life that I'm ever going to need to calculate a NPV, beta, CI, etc... by hand? Hell no. You learn it simply to say that you can.
The paper you come out with says "this person can learn stuffs" it doesn't matter how well you can memorize a text book, that is what intranets, the internet, and computer programs are for.
But if you cannot talk to another human being, if you cannot be sociable at a restaurant meeting, or at the bar/club after wards then you wont get very far... Actually I get asked a lot about my GPA and Engineering course marks when I was interviewing for graduate jobs. It is even more important to have good grades, if you are looking for co-op jobs as well unless you think you can compete without co-op or any work experience.
I'm in co-op in my school. My grades are not amazing, but I still have a job and others do not simply because I have previous work experience and have social skills.
But ya grades are important if you choose to continue your academic career. But for example If i interview at say Investors Group as a financial assistant. They will never know my grades and will never ask them. So if I got a 55% or a 95% it doesn't really matter it will be based more off my co-op and previous work history, my extracurricular activities and how sociable I am.
Although I'm generalizing this, there are probably some fields that are different (I assume most things in the maths/sciences/engi departments might have some sort of a "what kind of grades did you get" but no commerce, arts, social studies, etc... positions will ask you what you got in university.
Actually thinking about it now... if I were to say be a sciences/engi/maths student and interview at say ALCan or Dupont they wont care what my grades are, they will care if I have any previous experience working in the field and who I know personally...
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EPT
