On November 11 2010 12:59 FuRong wrote: Seriously, I don't see how this is a problem. There will always be a degree of racial segregation (in terms of socialising) at universities, just like in real life. People generally tend to hang out with others who are like them and share the same interests and values, and this isn't going to change.
I dunno about everyone else, but I would be the first in line to sign up for a university that had a reputation for being "too asian". It would certainly be a welcome break from the retarded "hurp durp let's get drunk every weekend and skate by with a C- average" mainstream culture of universities in NZ. I'm white but I can probably count the number of white friends I have on one hand. At uni me and my friends would often complain that university organised events were nothing but drinking and partying. Hell, the biggest student club at AU is the fucking "drinking club", I kid you not. By far the most fun events we attended were organised by the asian clubs or through groups of friends.
Will the percentage of Asians at universities continue to grow? Yes, because in general Asians have a better work ethic and will out-perform their white counterparts academically. Does this mean that the demographics and culture on campus will change? Of course it does. But is this a cause for concern? Hell no, I think it's a good thing if Asians raise the bar a little and create a desirable social alternative to the widely accepted university lifestyle of drinking, partying and not giving a fuck.
If you want people to do something other than drink, party and not give a fuck you have to make university mean something. Right now we have way too many people going to university because university is the new high school, you don't go there because you want or expect to learn something, you go there because it's a line item you're expected to have on your resume if you want to get a job. Why do you need it to get a job? Because everyone else going for the job went to university too, so you don't want to be the one who is thrown in the bin before even getting an interview.
Education isn't about learning, it's an arms race where everyone is trying to one up each other. Seems to me the people have realised this and know that getting that degree at the end is the only point and are at least determined to have a good time doing so (drinking and partying is what a lot of people enjoy, like it or not).
I completely agree with you, but entrance standards and the value of a university education is probably material for another new thread entirely. I don't know that much about entrance standards in Australia, but university entrance in NZ is a joke.
To clarify, I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with drinking and partying. If you wanna do that then that's great, more power to you, no-one is stopping you. But at the same time, if you're NOT into that scene then that's cool too. The article in the OP seems to be lamenting the fact that Asians don't contribute anything to university culture because they don't drink and party as much. My point is that they DO socialise and contribute, but just in different ways, and I like the fact that it provides an alternative social scene for non-asians like me who don't really enjoy drinking and clubbing that much.
Nah the standards in Australia are pretty low too, the government is always under pressure for more university places to look like they're doing something for education, so that basically means that anyone who wants to go to university can get in somewhere.
Maybe I'm just an old fart and not in touch with modern university culture (when I went was over a decade ago now) but I don't really feel like there was a massive drinking culture that the Asian groups were the only alternative to. Then again I can't recall it being a case of Asians keeping to themselves either. I guess it depends on which university you go to and which groups you hang out with?
On November 11 2010 14:07 Chairman Ray wrote: From my point of view, I see white vs asian as minimalism vs elitism. A typical white student will realize that getting a 4.0 GPA gets you the same degree as a 2.5 GPA, and after your first job, your GPA won't even matter anymore. They spend just the amount of time working to get the 2.5 GPA and spend the rest of their time doing things they enjoy. A typical asian will do well just for the sake of doing well. In the asian culture, achieving high standards means a lot, even if nothing comes out of it. That's why a lot of asian parents make their kids practice piano 1-2 hours a day and tell them never to be a musician. It's just the idea of being better for the sake of being better. I suppose high achievements are what fulfills asians, equivalent to partying and drinking for white people.
I agree. I am also asian and we just have different values. While it is not true for everyone, facts are that asians tend to have different values than others when it comes to school. I can relate to most of my friends (white), whose parents kick them out of the house at 18 years old so they learn by themselves. On the other hand, my others friends (asian) and myself, our parents would never kick us out at 18 for no reason. They would allow us to stay home, until wefinish school, or even have a great career before moving out. We just have different values.
For us, school matters more than interacting (although many exceptions, i myself dont have super high grades and socialize more), but my parents taught me piano when i was young, made me do karate until black belt to learn determination, perseverance etc. Its just about parents values. Us parents come from a different background. Most of us parents lived war and poverty, then moved to Canada. They have learned that school and money can bring you far in life, which is why they are trying to put that into our mind. The parents of my white friends, although i might be just stereotyping, probably came from wealthier in nature, did not have to fight poverty/war, and did not have to move to a new country and adapt. Although i might be stereotyping, i believe that culture and values from canadians are different than asians.
PS: to all asians: How bad would it be in your asian entourage if you got a divorce? just a proof of different values from different people
On November 11 2010 14:07 Chairman Ray wrote: It's just the idea of being better for the sake of being better. I suppose high achievements are what fulfills asians, equivalent to partying and drinking for white people.
Nailed it. I've read some posts lambasting students who sacrifice the fun opportunities in the present and that in the end they'll wonder why they did. But bettering yourself is what makes some people happy in the present.
that article is laughable, or, maybe, it is THAT bad in us/canada??XDD here in europe i have seen many hardworking asians students, as well as ALOT of hardworking(read: give up party to do study/do homework) white/caucasians students. general consensus is that local student will always dominate the top students portion in the class, and then followed by above average oversea students(chinese, indian/middle easterner, caucasians from us etc) and then maybe some average local+oversea mix.
and if you are talking about drinking culture. hehe. come ireland. and you will realise how big the students drinking issues there.
I'm korean (moved from Seoul when I was two) and was told all my life to study hard to go to a good school. I remember the first time I got a "B" in middle school my parents were very upset, and I was upset that they got so upset. I grew up in a predominantly non-asian area in the Tampa, Florida area and it felt unfair to be treated so "harshly" relative to my peers for "only" B's.
In the end, I am grateful. For the younger ones on this forum, Trust me, getting a damn good education and a damn good job does more for your social life after college than all the socializing in high school is ever going to do, unless you plan on living near your high school all your life....
On November 11 2010 12:02 Flakes wrote: As a half-asian, I was encouraged by counselors and my parents to identify as "white" or at least "multi-racial" when applying for college, since applying as an asian could hurt my chances.
Well putting Asian would be silly anyway because (I assume) you've grown up in a Western country.
Half Asians never look Asian anyways. Most half Asians can pass off as being Caucasian.
On November 11 2010 14:56 BurningSera wrote: that article is laughable, or, maybe, it is THAT bad in us/canada??XDD here in europe i have seen many hardworking asians students, as well as ALOT of hardworking(read: give up party to do study/do homework) white/caucasians students. general consensus is that local student will always dominate the top students portion in the class, and then followed by above average oversea students(chinese, indian/middle easterner, caucasians from us etc) and then maybe some average local+oversea mix.
and if you are talking about drinking culture. hehe. come ireland. and you will realise how big the students drinking issues there.
I dont think its that bad. Its the same at my university.
While I don't have complete liberty to speak on behalf of Asians in general, being white and all, but I will say this. Real or not, the preconceived notion of different admissions standards definitely had my girl freaked out when she was looking into law school. I tried to coach her through it since I'm a 2L and had just gone through the process a year earlier at that time. But obviously there was a different concern than I went through. Even if a lot of it is mental the stress it causes is pretty real.
“At graduation a Canadian—i.e. ‘white’—mother told me that I’m the reason her son didn’t get a space in university and that all the immigrants in the country are taking up university spots,” says Frankie Mao, a 22-year-old arts student at the University of British Columbia. “I knew it was wrong, being generalized in this category,” says Mao, “but f–k, I worked hard for it.”
This is the most level-headed thing in the whole article and it's spot-on.
On November 11 2010 13:27 jstar wrote: I agree with some parts of your post, but most of it is way too generalized.
And there is no such thing as "Relatively Poor International Students"
International students have to pay triple of domestic student's tuition. If they're from China (Most of them are from China not Hong Kong), and they can afford plane tickets, 4-5 years of their child's rent/living expenses, and the tuition, they are anything but poor.
There are the CBCs, the fobs, and the super fobs, that's it. Income really has nothing to do with it. Some CBCs are rich, some are poor, some fobs are rich, some are poor. All super fobs (The international students) are rich.
As for partying/drinking, again, you can't just generalize them into groups. Some likes to party a lot, some rarely does it and some never.
At my University, about I would say about 60% are from HK, and 40% from China. I don't know why it works out that way, cause I do know that most international students are from mainland.
Some of them are relatively poor, as in, most of their parent's money, if not all of their parent's money are going toward tuition and housing. Yes, they can afford it. But at what cost? From what I know, some of my friends are rich and are living here comfortable. Others, are scraping by. Why? Because their parent's want their children to not be in China/HK.
Yes, I did generalize. (May be to much so?) However, I did state that as my defense and most of this is from my own experience.
“At graduation a Canadian—i.e. ‘white’—mother told me that I’m the reason her son didn’t get a space in university and that all the immigrants in the country are taking up university spots,” says Frankie Mao, a 22-year-old arts student at the University of British Columbia. “I knew it was wrong, being generalized in this category,” says Mao, “but f–k, I worked hard for it.”
This is the most level-headed thing in the whole article and it's spot-on.
It could also mean that
???? Her son failed to do good enough in high school so he was able to get a job.
They could always go to a college and transfer later or even in their final year and it'll show as getting a degree from said university...
On November 11 2010 13:27 jstar wrote: I agree with some parts of your post, but most of it is way too generalized.
And there is no such thing as "Relatively Poor International Students"
International students have to pay triple of domestic student's tuition. If they're from China (Most of them are from China not Hong Kong), and they can afford plane tickets, 4-5 years of their child's rent/living expenses, and the tuition, they are anything but poor.
There are the CBCs, the fobs, and the super fobs, that's it. Income really has nothing to do with it. Some CBCs are rich, some are poor, some fobs are rich, some are poor. All super fobs (The international students) are rich.
As for partying/drinking, again, you can't just generalize them into groups. Some likes to party a lot, some rarely does it and some never.
At my University, about I would say about 60% are from HK, and 40% from China. I don't know why it works out that way, cause I do know that most international students are from mainland.
Some of them are relatively poor, as in, most of their parent's money, if not all of their parent's money are going toward tuition and housing. Yes, they can afford it. But at what cost? From what I know, some of my friends are rich and are living here comfortable. Others, are scraping by. Why? Because their parent's want their children to not be in China/HK.
Yes, I did generalize. (May be to much so?) However, I did state that as my defense and most of this is from my own experience.
Don't they also want their children to learn English, too?
in Differentiation course in high school, all the kids were Asians and they're pretty social save only three white people of which two were guys and one white girl
On November 11 2010 12:10 yoplate wrote: I would say on some levels this article is right. The majority of asian students that I know will skip a party to finish homework/study, while the majority of white students I know will go to the party and not do the homework. It is blown out of proportion in the article, but there is definitely a difference in work ethics between the two groups.
I for a fact know this to be true. I mean, Asians to tend to do better in school... legit, too This article focuses way to hard on the Asians.. I mean, if I get turned down for a job because of people who went to school, did the 4 years of hard work, and got the grades, then so be it, they deserve it. What bothers me is when, and this is not to change to subject, there are other minorities that attend school, cheat their ways through, then find jobs in Canada using their ill-gotten degrees they scammed as bartering chips.
Yeah man, I'm Asian and I can't compete with the others. Doesn't mean I whine about it, I just try harder. If I can't be a Hollywood actor because all the white guys have the spots, I'm not going to QQ about it. Instead, I will focus on what else I am good at, and unfortunately, that is not SC2. -_-
I think another reason is that asians are very competitive within friends and family. As a Korean, many parents of my friends would talk with each other about how their kids were doing and it would usually be a 1-up fest. So my parents were very stern about me getting straight A's,and would get pissed off if I got a B, and the same was for all of my friends as we would talk about it. I always thought it was sort of BS because I knew a bunch of "white" kids that would get rewards if they got better grades like money and Xbox's and whatever but I never got anything. Then over winter breaks and summer vacation I wasn't even allowed to go on the computer or watch tv unless I read books for like 4 hours before. It sucks being Asian sometimes =(
On November 11 2010 12:03 Piy wrote: Lol, you can boil the article down to:
How can we make the smart kids stop making the stupider kids feel bad about being stupid?
Yeah essentially. I think this whole article misses the point when they were talking about Asians being less likely to socialize. Anyone in math/sciences is probably less likely to socialize, and Asians are more likely to go into math and science intensive degrees. I for one welcome having Asians be overrepresented in universities, because god knows we need less dumb women's studies/ethnic studies/sociologist/humanities retards running around draining resources and not actually learning anything useful. At least the Asians, more often than not, choose to gain skills our society collectively actually needs.
On November 11 2010 14:25 Enervate wrote: This is certainly a reasonable view for any college because diversity contributes to intellectual growth; different cultures naturally approach things differently and having different viewpoints available is always beneficial. .
From a purely anectodal standpoint, I think this is total bullshit. I'm a black/Latin man, and I doubt my mere presence enhances anyone's intellectual growth. I don't feel being around asian/white/native american/whatever students changes the way I think about anything either.
It'd be difficult to examine this from a statistical standpoint, but I'd wager that racial homogenization with a lot of Asians and Jews is what "magically" makes a university perform better academically. Just use the original article for instance; the schools with a lot of Asians are held to a higher academic standard. I highly doubt you could find evidence to support the notion that ethnic diversity in university's is correlated with a high level of academic and intellectual performance, all else constant.
On November 11 2010 13:27 jstar wrote: I agree with some parts of your post, but most of it is way too generalized.
And there is no such thing as "Relatively Poor International Students"
International students have to pay triple of domestic student's tuition. If they're from China (Most of them are from China not Hong Kong), and they can afford plane tickets, 4-5 years of their child's rent/living expenses, and the tuition, they are anything but poor.
There are the CBCs, the fobs, and the super fobs, that's it. Income really has nothing to do with it. Some CBCs are rich, some are poor, some fobs are rich, some are poor. All super fobs (The international students) are rich.
As for partying/drinking, again, you can't just generalize them into groups. Some likes to party a lot, some rarely does it and some never.
At my University, about I would say about 60% are from HK, and 40% from China. I don't know why it works out that way, cause I do know that most international students are from mainland.
Some of them are relatively poor, as in, most of their parent's money, if not all of their parent's money are going toward tuition and housing. Yes, they can afford it. But at what cost? From what I know, some of my friends are rich and are living here comfortable. Others, are scraping by. Why? Because their parent's want their children to not be in China/HK.
Yes, I did generalize. (May be to much so?) However, I did state that as my defense and most of this is from my own experience.
Don't they also want their children to learn English, too?
in Differentiation course in high school, all the kids were Asians and they're pretty social save only three white people of which two were guys and one white girl
I was responding to his response to me?
If you are wondering if the international students want to learn English... I want to say yes, but also want to say no. They do teach English there, so most students (at least the ones I know) have at least a English background, as in they can read relatively well. Speaking, not so much.
The best way to learn English is basically surround yourself with people who speak English. I am born in Canada, but I can speak Cantonese fairly well. We tend to resort to speaking Cantonese cause I am more comfortable speaking Cantonese then they are speaking English. I'm in a engineering program, so maybe we are more math oriented and they do not require as much English immersion?
On November 11 2010 12:18 ZoW wrote: It's pretty much a known fact all Asians go to class, go back, study, study, study some more. Its just the way asian parenting works, where you get drilled to have a good work ethic.
The article is quite true, but hey, why would you care so much about what they say or think? Sure they have fun, get the "social experience", party, drink, etc. Its fine if that's what they want to do, everyone's got a choice how they want to live.
But then asians spend time on their grades, because its the smart thing to do. sure you miss out on being social for a few years, but 10 years later when your living off 6 figures a year and on a yacht ballin' with other rich people you'll thank yourself and laugh at all the idiots you knew in university who got shit faced everyday.
Listen kid, I appreciate that youre trying to say that its ok to be very devoted to your studies. I agree, its ok to study a lot, its ok to be a nerd, and whatnot. But it is NOT a fact that "all Asians go to class, go back, study, study, study some more." I think its fucking ridiculous that in 2010 people still think its ok to generalize an entire race.
I'm Asian, I don't do that. Yea, I believe that my studies are very important. I have a 3.7 in my masters program for accounting. I study and work a part time job outside of class. In my free time, I b-boy 2 or 3 times a week and I work out in between those days 3 times a week. On the weekends I kick it with my friends by either going to bars, hittin the clubs, or just playing SC2.
A lot of my friends are Asian and don't do that. One of them finished his Aeronautics and Astronautics degree and is working at Boeing now. He plays basketball and goes out drinking a lot in his free time. At the same time I have Asian friends who do study a lot and play a lot of video games.
My point is, it is not a known fact that all Asians are the same. I cant believe you actually spout that nonsense.
EDIT: nevermind, my bad. Just read your next post regarding bad wording in your above post.
On November 11 2010 12:18 ZoW wrote: It's pretty much a known fact all Asians go to class, go back, study, study, study some more. Its just the way asian parenting works, where you get drilled to have a good work ethic.
Don't say 'all Asians'. It's not a fact. I know just as many Asians who are smart as who are dumb. Don't pretend like we're one faceless entity who are programmed from birth to think, act, and talk the same way. I am constantly amazed that people can talk about Asians this way without getting called out for it.
I'm asian too btw, and yeah i definitely could have worded that better. My bad if I offended you.
Its just the whole societal stigma I've grown up around i guess. it was always a competition between all my friends from elementary to junior high of who got better grades and did better in school. Our parents just raised us that way, where its like "OH WHY CANT YOU BE LIKE HIM? HE GOT A 100 AND YOU GOT A 97". Funny thing is I was the only one to get tired of it :\
I feel ya man. I was always being compared to other super smart kids. My dad always tried to use shame and punishment to motivate rather than encouragement. I definitely was pretty messed in the head growing up. Eventually, like you, I got fed up with that shit. I still strive for good grades, but I do other things. Still, Im definitely a little bitter about not having the social skills to have friends for more than half my life.
What's the deal with people thinking that college should be"the best time of your life"?
Maybe it's just cause I'm a science major but now is the time too work hard. I'm learning the knowledge that will be required for my future career/the rest of my life. Are you telling me everything after college is going to be worse? Boy people have low aspirations.
EPT
This article focuses way to hard on the Asians.. I mean, if I get turned down for a job because of people who went to school, did the 4 years of hard work, and got the grades, then so be it, they deserve it. What bothers me is when, and this is not to change to subject, there are other minorities that attend school, cheat their ways through, then find jobs in Canada using their ill-gotten degrees they scammed as bartering chips.
