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Savio
United States1850 Posts
On November 03 2010 08:01 xDaunt wrote: Actually, he's being remembered for his "yes" votes on the stimulus bill and Obamacare, which is why he's being sent home. Actually this was a pretty epic response after the Feingold love-fest we've been having. His state is sending him home for a reason you know. | ||
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clementdudu
France819 Posts
Sure the base is capitalism,like every nation semi-developped nowadays,but Lula's presidencies proved the world taxes,heavy social focus,high state presence transformed a country from scratch to a thriving economy,created millions of jobs,reduced crime,gava Brazil massive infrastructures. Sure it is so far away from Engels thoughts that labelling it socialism is far fetched,but it still proves that furious capitalism,voracious free market and 10cents footballs is not the best way to go for developping countries. | ||
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domovoi
United States1478 Posts
On November 03 2010 07:47 Krigwin wrote: First I'd like to point out this poll doesn't really mean anything pertaining to your point. At this point I'm merely assuming your point is that the US is a good country to move to, perhaps because of social/political freedom or economic opportunity or something? It pertains to my point that people would rather live in the US than in Cuba, and by a very wide margin. Second thing I'd like to point out is that this graph doesn't mean anything pertaining to your point either, because you're basically stating that higher income is "better" or the only thing that matters or something or that income even directly relates to wealth... which anyone with a high-paying job but lots of gambling debts can attest to being as complete untruth. When we define "better" by other factors like, I dunno, quality of living, standards of health or education, levels of wealth inequality or crime, life expectancy or infant mortality, or even reported levels of happiness or satisfaction with the government, you know, silly insignificant stuff like that, I could post a dozen other charts and graphs proving that the US is at the bottom of the totem pole. I'm not here to refute your points or argue with you or anything, I agree with you actually on a number of things and think you provide some good arguments, I just think it's a cop-out and an unsatisfactory debate tactic to simply post links to graphs or polls that don't even really support the point you're trying to make. It was a pithy, generalized statement countering another pithy, generalized statement. Things like quality of living and standards of health are adjusted for, but yes, income does not mean wealth, though it's correlated. My point is that the American poor are not as bad off as many non-Americans seem to think. | ||
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Losticus
United States62 Posts
The ensuing lefty meltdown will make it all the more delicious ... may be the only night MSNBC will be worth tuning in.  | ||
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Savio
United States1850 Posts
On November 03 2010 02:57 Savio wrote: Here is a poll I am interested in for TL'ers We all know that Republicans will be gaining seats in both houses and that this will be a bad night for Democrats so: Poll: Your feelings on the likely Republican gains: Afraid to see Republicans win (41) Excited to see Republicans win (21) Excited to see Democrats lose (13) Sad to see the Democrats go (3) 78 total votes Your vote: Your feelings on the likely Republican gains: (Vote): Excited to see Republicans win | ||
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_Darwin_
United States2374 Posts
On November 03 2010 08:12 domovoi wrote: It pertains to my point that people would rather live in the US than in Cuba, and by a very wide margin. I don't want to get involved, but why are the comparisons drawn between the US and Cuba? Why not Cuba and capitalist Taiwan. Why not Cuba and capitalist Mexico or capitalist Haiti or capitalist Bangladesh or capitalist Peru? It seems really dumb to make any sort of comparisons between countries with huge differences in development and population. | ||
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Krigwin
1130 Posts
On November 03 2010 08:12 domovoi wrote: It pertains to my point that people would rather live in the US than in Cuba, and by a very wide margin. Except it doesn't support your point that much for the reasons I stated. If you want to make the point that more people want to live in the US than in Cuba, why don't you just go ahead and say that while providing actual reasons instead of some poll that could be interpreted to mean any number of things? This is a minor point, I just get annoyed with this tactic. It was a pithy, generalized statement countering another pithy, generalized statement. Things like quality of living and standards of health are adjusted for, but yes, income does not mean wealth, though it's correlated. My point is that the American poor are not as bad off as many non-Americans seem to think. I'm not disagreeing with you or trying to refute your point here or start an argument or anything, just asking a question - just how bad off do you think the American poor are? I'm curious. | ||
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Savio
United States1850 Posts
On November 03 2010 08:16 _Darwin_ wrote: I don't want to get involved, but why are the comparisons drawn between the US and Cuba? Why not Cuba and capitalist Taiwan. Why not Cuba and capitalist Mexico or capitalist Haiti or capitalist Bangladesh or capitalist Peru? It seems really dumb to make any sort of comparisons between countries with huge differences in development and population. Because it was stated earlier that of the countries that have attempted communism, Cuba turned out the best. So its being compared to..not necessarily the "best" but some of the "good" capitalist countries. | ||
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Romantic
United States1844 Posts
On November 03 2010 08:01 xDaunt wrote: Actually, he's being remembered for his "yes" votes on the stimulus bill and Obamacare, which is why he's being sent home. Stimulus bills and Obamacare, such evil has never been seen! Republicans have never done such things, I'd imagine. They only signed into law the largest entitlement increase in decades along with budget killing tax cuts on purpose (it was indeed a stimulative attempt with a sunset clause, let us not forget): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobs_and_Growth_Tax_Relief_Reconciliation_Act_of_2003 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Growth_and_Tax_Relief_Reconciliation_Act_of_2001 Can't blame them though, right? Everyone knows tax cuts help the economy the most and pay for themselves! ![[image loading]](http://i51.tinypic.com/28qzs04.jpg) Alternatively: http://i51.tinypic.com/28qzs04.jpg Oh shi-, they don't? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_Prescription_Drug,_Improvement,_and_Modernization_Act This was expensive too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War Vote out Feingold, vote in "small government" Republicans! Life is good comedy. | ||
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domovoi
United States1478 Posts
On November 03 2010 08:18 Krigwin wrote: Except it doesn't support your point that much for the reasons I stated. If you want to make the point that more people want to live in the US than in Cuba, why don't you just go ahead and say that while providing actual reasons instead of some poll that could be interpreted to mean any number of things? This is a minor point, I just get annoyed with this tactic. Um, the poll clearly shows that lots of people desire to move to America, it's not completely open to interpretation. This counters the suggestion that people are trying to leave America at a level similar to those trying to leave Cuba (to enter America, for what it's worth). I mean, to even suggest Cubans fleeing is somehow the same as Americans moving to Canada is pretty ridiculous. At least I'm providing some data to clarify the issue rather than making completely baseless comments. I'm not disagreeing with you or trying to refute your point here or start an argument or anything, just asking a question - just how bad off do you think the American poor are? I'm curious. The American poor are much better off than 90% of the world. Their level of income is slightly below that of the income of European poor. That being said, more redistribution would be a good thing, but I think progressives (at least the cosmopolitan ones) should be focusing more on global inequality rather than American inequality. | ||
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Savio
United States1850 Posts
On November 03 2010 08:21 Romantic wrote: Stimulus bills and Obamacare, such evil has never been seen! Republicans have never done such things, I'd imagine. They only signed into law the largest entitlement increase in decades along with budget killing tax cuts on purpose (it was indeed a stimulative attempt with a sunset clause, let us not forget): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobs_and_Growth_Tax_Relief_Reconciliation_Act_of_2003 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Growth_and_Tax_Relief_Reconciliation_Act_of_2001 Can't blame them though, right? Everyone knows tax cuts help the economy the most and pay for themselves! Alternatively: http://i51.tinypic.com/28qzs04.jpg Oh shi-, they don't? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_Prescription_Drug,_Improvement,_and_Modernization_Act This was expensive too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War Vote out Feingold, vote in "small government" Republicans! Life is good comedy. Republicans in the Bush era screwed up big time and they were also sent home by their constituents appropriately. Democrats didn't realize the reason that Republicans got slammed, and they acted very similarly and are now being sent home. So now Feingold is being sent home. No big deal. | ||
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LOLtex
United States148 Posts
On November 03 2010 08:21 Romantic wrote: Stimulus bills and Obamacare, such evil has never been seen! Republicans have never done such things, I'd imagine. They only signed into law the largest entitlement increase in decades along with budget killing tax cuts on purpose (it was indeed a stimulative attempt with a sunset clause, let us not forget): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobs_and_Growth_Tax_Relief_Reconciliation_Act_of_2003 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Growth_and_Tax_Relief_Reconciliation_Act_of_2001 Can't blame them though, right? Everyone knows tax cuts help the economy the most and pay for themselves! Alternatively: http://i51.tinypic.com/28qzs04.jpg Oh shi-, they don't? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_Prescription_Drug,_Improvement,_and_Modernization_Act This was expensive too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War Vote out Feingold, vote in "small government" Republicans! Life is good comedy. Bush might be a member of the republican party, but he sure as hell doesn't understand (much less represent) the concept of fiscal conservatism. His liberal expenses was why he was so universally detested among republicans and democrats alike. | ||
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domovoi
United States1478 Posts
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Savio
United States1850 Posts
On November 03 2010 08:43 domovoi wrote: Tea partiers don't really care about fiscal conservativism. The biggest expenditures are defense and medicare, neither of which tea partiers desire to reform. Entitlements are by far the biggest thing gov't spends money on. Fiscal conservatives are against huge entitlements. | ||
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domovoi
United States1478 Posts
On November 03 2010 08:44 Savio wrote: Entitlements are by far the biggest thing gov't spends money on. Fiscal conservatives are against huge entitlements. If you're talking about social security, I don't think tea partiers want to reform that either, but regardless, it should be solvent for another decade or two. It will eventually need to be reformed, but it's effect on the deficit is not nearly as important as military and medicare expenditures. | ||
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Weird
United States832 Posts
On a brighter note, lets all get excited for the incoming tea party candidates and the vast amount of comedic material that they'll bring to all of us in the coming months, a party that hates washington comes to washington... I'm crossing my fingers for a Christine O' Donnell victory myself. | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
On November 03 2010 08:12 domovoi wrote:My point is that the American poor are not as bad off as many non-Americans seem to think. Wait, are you kidding me? Compared to the poor basically anywhere in Europe, poor Americans live terrible fucking lives. I think YOU are the one that's out of touch with the American poor. | ||
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TheAldo
United States214 Posts
On November 03 2010 08:44 Savio wrote: Entitlements are by far the biggest thing gov't spends money on. Fiscal conservatives are against huge entitlements. Yeah but ask them what they want to cut and they wont answer the damn question! | ||
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Romantic
United States1844 Posts
On November 03 2010 08:50 Weird wrote: On a brighter note, lets all get excited for the incoming tea party candidates and the vast amount of comedic material that they'll bring to all of us in the coming months, a party that hates washington comes to washington... I'm crossing my fingers for a Christine O' Donnell victory myself. They will quickly be assimilated into the Republican establishment. Hell, they are probably already there. They might try some funny shit, but I'm sure they will bow their heads and vote party line in about 8 seconds flat. I am much more excited about watching the Republican party tear itself up trying to marginalize Palin so she doesn't win the presidential nomination and get crushed by Obama. On November 03 2010 08:44 Savio wrote: Entitlements are by far the biggest thing gov't spends money on. Fiscal conservatives are against huge entitlements. Fiscal conservatives do not exist to any significant degree in the Republican Party. If this wasn't painfully obvious when they ended Clinton's surplus (minus SS robbery) or when McCain's best idea was "pork barrel" spending cuts, it will be obvious in the next few decades. I scoff at the idea Republicans would stop subsidizing the elderly and the defense contractors; that is most of their electorate and a vast majority of US Federal spending  | ||
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enzym
Germany1034 Posts
On November 03 2010 08:50 Weird wrote: And the thread has obviously degenerated into the lefty/righty debate, no one is going to change their mind by looking at your 10 paragraph "Mr. Spock" arguments (with charts) people... Why so serious? On a brighter note, lets all get excited for the incoming tea party candidates and the vast amount of comedic material that they'll bring to all of us in the coming months, a party that hates washington comes to washington... I'm crossing my fingers for a Christine O' Donnell victory myself. tyt just brought news that o donnell is out. no chance to see her in that kind of situation. | ||
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