EPTSince when is a muslim run recreational centre with things such as culinary school and basketball court with only 1 floor dedicated to praying considered a mosque? Or are you all just parroting fox news in their usual fear mongering?
Views on construction of Mosque at Ground Zero - Page 24
| Forum Index > General Forum |
|
Starstuff
Croatia60 Posts
Since when is a muslim run recreational centre with things such as culinary school and basketball court with only 1 floor dedicated to praying considered a mosque? Or are you all just parroting fox news in their usual fear mongering? | ||
|
Deadlyfish
Denmark1980 Posts
On August 26 2010 16:25 KwarK wrote: How do people still believe this? Even if you accept the tenuous logic that the Taliban in Afghanistan were sheltering Al Qaeda and therefore an attack from them is an attack by the Taliban and therefore invading Afghanistan is really self defence against the Taliban who knew some of the guys who actually started it then that still doesn't explain how Islamic extremism started the war in Iraq. I thought everyone knew Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. In fact, I thought everyone knew that in 2003. Jesus! I meant that the attack started 2 wars, you saying it didnt? Saddam had nothing to do with the attack obviously. But the attack was still where it all started. Or was it just coincidence that the war in iraq started so soon after the attack? | ||
|
Electric.Jesus
Germany755 Posts
About 99% of Muslims are peaceful average types. Dunno what the appropriate equivalent to a "joe sixpack" is since they usually do not drink alcohol. Fact is, most of the are law abiding citizens but somehow, the 1% of bad apples has the power to outweigh all that. The problem is not restrcited to Islam, though. Consider the right wing Israeli setllers whose credo is that all non-jews must be driven from the "holy land" because it says so in the bible. Consider also evangelical christians who hand out bibles in Iaq and Afghanistan because they think their holy mission is saving the heathen Muslims from eternal suffering by converting them to the true faith. I recommend to everyone to read How to win a cosmic war by Reza Azlan. It provides intersting background information on today's religious zealots from all three major monoptheistic religions and how they actively work against reigious conflict. My 2 cents: do not let religious extremists hijack a complete faith (whichever one it may be). | ||
|
Deadlyfish
Denmark1980 Posts
I think they should be allowed to build there, they can build wherever they want. But why cant they just move it when people ask them to? Is that location so important that they cant just build it elsewhere? It's the exact same with the muhammad drawings, why do something just to piss people off? Just stop what you're doing cause it's obviously more important to other people than to yourself. | ||
|
Mylin
Sweden177 Posts
On August 26 2010 17:38 ggrrg wrote: That source might be bad, but as someone living in Germany for over 10 years I can assure you that muslims are by far the least integrated group. Now, there are probably countless reasons for this and nobody can be sure how much of a role their religion played. However, "Muslim intergration is not proceeding smoothly" is rather an understatement. By the way, this does not apply only to Germany, but also to many other European countries (somewhere in this thread, a person from Denmark said something similar). This all is quite off-topic, but I just wanted to let you know that many Muslims in Europe struggle with integration a lot (but once I again, I don't know if this is due to "Islamic teachings being not 100% compatible with the western world" as thesighter said) I think many religious views aren't compatible with a modern society. I can't say for all european countries considering how different they are but atleast in Sweden if you're really devoted to any faith most people are gonna think you're a bit of a weirdo. Except buddhism which is cool for some reason =) | ||
KwarK
United States43469 Posts
On August 26 2010 18:00 Deadlyfish wrote: I meant that the attack started 2 wars, you saying it didnt? Saddam had nothing to do with the attack obviously. But the attack was still where it all started. Or was it just coincidence that the war in iraq started so soon after the attack? If we're defining started as simply "event that came before" then yes, 911 started two wars. But why stop there, the collapse of the Soviet Union started two wars. After all it happened previously and it is unlikely that the US would be getting involved in other wars with their old adversary still around. The British colonisation of the Americas also started those two wars. Started usually means a direct cause which is why I originally contradicted your post because obviously 911 was not a direct cause of the invasion of Iraq, the two being unrelated. What 911 did do is create a situation in which other things could start a second war which is not the same thing and is why the same thing can be said of the American war of independence. This is not what the word means. | ||
|
Deadlyfish
Denmark1980 Posts
On August 26 2010 18:15 KwarK wrote: If we're defining started as simply "event that came before" then yes, 911 started two wars. But why stop there, the collapse of the Soviet Union started two wars. After all it happened previously and it is unlikely that the US would be getting involved in other wars with their old adversary still around. The British colonisation of the Americas also started those two wars. Started usually means a direct cause which is why I originally contradicted your post because obviously 911 was not a direct cause of the invasion of Iraq, the two being unrelated. What 911 did do is create a situation in which other things could start a second war which is not the same thing and is why the same thing can be said of the American war of independence. This is not what the word means. Getting horribly offtopic but whatever  9/11 pretty much made it acceptable to invade iraq and afghanistan, without 9/11 i almost doubt that either war would've started. I'd say it was almost a direct cause. Right after 9/11 was where the planning for the invasion of Iraq started atleast, doesnt seem like a coincidence. | ||
|
Achilles
Canada385 Posts
On August 26 2010 18:24 Deadlyfish wrote: Getting horribly offtopic but whatever 9/11 pretty much made it acceptable to invade iraq and afghanistan, without 9/11 i almost doubt that either war would've started. I'd say it was almost a direct cause. Right after 9/11 was where the planning for the invasion of Iraq started atleast, doesnt seem like a coincidence. And Hitler killing Jews made it acceptable to invade German annexed territories. And Serbia killing the archduke of Austria made way for the first world war to occur. And Palestinians killing Israelis and Israelis killing Palestinians created that conflict. And genocide in serbia made it acceptable for NATO to protect Kosovo And you're starting to see how this is going? On topic: I'd be content if no religious structures were built anywhere, but that's just my opinion. | ||
|
FaZe
Canada472 Posts
On August 26 2010 16:09 dizzy101 wrote: Agreed 100%. (Except for the misspelling of 'argument'.) Also, for every youtube video showing how backwards Islam is, I can make my own video showing how backwards the Bible is when taken literally (which allows selling your daughters into slavery, for instance). Holy shit, I've been misspelling "argument" for my entire life. Thank you sir. Thank you. | ||
|
thesighter
United States347 Posts
On August 26 2010 18:12 Mylin wrote: I think many religious views aren't compatible with a modern society. I can't say for all european countries considering how different they are but atleast in Sweden if you're really devoted to any faith most people are gonna think you're a bit of a weirdo. Except buddhism which is cool for some reason =) Muslim assimiliation is not proceeding well throughout Europe. A disproportionate number of the criminals in European prisons are Muslim. There is a view that Islamic values are not readily adaptable to the West. For example, there are now Sharia courts set up in the UK, whose rulings have been criticized for going against UK norms. | ||
|
Kerotan
England2109 Posts
On August 27 2010 00:41 thesighter wrote: Muslim assimiliation is not proceeding well throughout Europe. A disproportionate number of the criminals in European prisons are Muslim. There is a view that Islamic values are less adaptable to the West. For example, there are now Sharia courts set up in the UK, whose rulings have been criticized for going against UK norms. Sharia courts in the UK have only been criticised by people that don't understand them. Their purpose is similar to Jewish courts and courts of faith, its horrible double standard if we tell the Jews they can have their courts, but you Muslims, you cannot set up courts to settle disputes between yourselves. Anecdotes like yours are dangerous, I could make any claim, like their are a disproportionate number of communists in UK prisons, and the stupid and the scare could well easily believe me, luckily, most people see that your claims are without evidence, and disregard them. Also, as an aside, anecdotal evidence is one thing, but anecdotal evidence from across the pond is another. | ||
|
Offhand
United States1869 Posts
On August 26 2010 12:11 thesighter wrote: They want to promote "interfaith dialogue", should be clear to the developers by now that most locals are against their initiative. If they were concerned about building bridges with the community, they would heed this by now and look to build it further away. Location of the mosque at a site hit by WTC wreckage is insensitive. Looking at American civil rights historically; it's not something that can be done peacefully. The US has been dragged, kicking and screaming, through most civil rights advancements. Equal rights for blacks was ugly, true equality for women was ugly. Gays are going through the same process as well but not without significant backlash from the conservative pricks. So excuse me if a building that forces cultural issues to a head isn't met with a whole city joining hands and singing "kumbaya" around park 51. Tolerance isn't something you can make people accept, it needs to be forced on them. If the city of NY wants to shut down the building process, they can try, but any appeal would stop the ban immediately. Bigotry has a new form in the 21st century. Most people are aware that hating someone for their religion, race, orientation, etc is deplorable, so you can't pass laws that purposefully discriminate one group. Instead we have a law that makes people in Arizona that "look like illegals" carry papers with them at all times. We get a law that clearly defines marriage... so we can deny rights and benefits to those with different sexual orientations. Now we have a country where 60% of the population associates an entire religion (of 1.5 billion people) with terrorism. And you know what? The bigoted jerks who make this association can only whine and fling poo as equality and tolerance gets built on their front lawn. | ||
|
thesighter
United States347 Posts
On August 26 2010 18:00 Electric.Jesus wrote: What I always ask myself is why some fucked up nutshots can actively discredit a whole religion? About 99% of Muslims are peaceful average types. Dunno what the appropriate equivalent to a "joe sixpack" is since they usually do not drink alcohol. Fact is, most of the are law abiding citizens but somehow, the 1% of bad apples has the power to outweigh all that. The problem is not restrcited to Islam, though. Consider the right wing Israeli setllers whose credo is that all non-jews must be driven from the "holy land" because it says so in the bible. Consider also evangelical christians who hand out bibles in Iaq and Afghanistan because they think their holy mission is saving the heathen Muslims from eternal suffering by converting them to the true faith. I recommend to everyone to read How to win a cosmic war by Reza Azlan. It provides intersting background information on today's religious zealots from all three major monoptheistic religions and how they actively work against reigious conflict. My 2 cents: do not let religious extremists hijack a complete faith (whichever one it may be). The issue with this view is that the extremists in Islam are much more vocal and more readily accepted than the extremists in the other religions. Looking at all the countries of the Middle East, nearly every one is a theocracy or secular dictatorship pretending to be a republic/democracy. http://marcovilla.instablogs.com/entry/why-is-the-arab-world-so-backwards/ A recent UN development report on the region makes for sobering and very depressing reading: - If one takes out the export of oil, over 20 Arab countries with over 360 million people between then export less products to the world than tiny Belgium with only 10 million people. - Spain’s GDP is larger than the entire Arab world combined. - 360 million Arabs have a smaller manufactoring capacity than 5-million-people Finland. - Greece with just 11 million people translates more books than the entire Arab world. The Arabs have fallen behind in the attainment of knowlegde. More books are translated into Spanish in one year than have been translated into Arabic over the past few centuries. - No a single Arab nation is a established democracy. - Arabs have the highest rate of government revenue as percentage of GDP and highest rates of youth unemployment. - Not a single Arab university ranks in the top 500 compared to several in tiny Israel. | ||
|
thesighter
United States347 Posts
On August 27 2010 00:48 Kerotan wrote: Sharia courts in the UK have only been criticised by people that don't understand them. Their purpose is similar to Jewish courts and courts of faith, its horrible double standard if we tell the Jews they can have their courts, but you Muslims, you cannot set up courts to settle disputes between yourselves. Anecdotes like yours are dangerous, I could make any claim, like their are a disproportionate number of communists in UK prisons, and the stupid and the scare could well easily believe me, luckily, most people see that your claims are without evidence, and disregard them. Also, as an aside, anecdotal evidence is one thing, but anecdotal evidence from across the pond is another. It's not anecdotal. http://www.esrcsocietytoday.ac.uk/ESRCInfoCentre/Plain_English_Summaries/environment/human_activities/index314.aspx Muslims are 300% overrepresented in UK prisons relative to their population. I've seen similar new articles for France, Germany, etc. | ||
|
Slakter
Sweden1947 Posts
On August 27 2010 00:54 thesighter wrote: The issue with this view is that the extremists in Islam are much more vocal and more readily accepted than the extremists in the other religions. Looking at all the countries of the Middle East, nearly every one is a theocracy or secular dictatorship pretending to be a republic/democracy. http://marcovilla.instablogs.com/entry/why-is-the-arab-world-so-backwards/ A recent UN development report on the region makes for sobering and very depressing reading: - If one takes out the export of oil, over 20 Arab countries with over 360 million people between then export less products to the world than tiny Belgium with only 10 million people. - Spain’s GDP is larger than the entire Arab world combined. - 360 million Arabs have a smaller manufactoring capacity than 5-million-people Finland. - Greece with just 11 million people translates more books than the entire Arab world. The Arabs have fallen behind in the attainment of knowlegde. More books are translated into Spanish in one year than have been translated into Arabic over the past few centuries. - No a single Arab nation is a established democracy. - Arabs have the highest rate of government revenue as percentage of GDP and highest rates of youth unemployment. - Not a single Arab university ranks in the top 500 compared to several in tiny Israel. What the hell does that have to do with anything? It just proves that living in the middle east is pretty lame, it doesnt have anything to do with Islam... | ||
|
[DUF]MethodMan
Germany1716 Posts
On August 27 2010 01:15 Sl4ktarN wrote: What the hell does that have to do with anything? It just proves that living in the middle east is pretty lame, it doesnt have anything to do with Islam... Except the fact that Islam has been there for 1400 years and it shapes and controls ALL life there. Only for a few intellectuals it's possible to escape this, get some info on Iran, probably the most advanced country in ME, culturalwise. Dunno how you could deny a connection between Islam and the fallback of this region. I'm not sure, but since the establishment of Islam, did there come anything good or valuable out of this region, as in philosophical/cultural values or technological advance? | ||
|
Offhand
United States1869 Posts
On August 27 2010 01:15 Sl4ktarN wrote: What the hell does that have to do with anything? It just proves that living in the middle east is pretty lame, it doesnt have anything to do with Islam... The same way we relate blacks with crime. For instance, blacks comprise 13% of the US population and 14% of regular drug users. But, in prison, blacks account for 37% of drug related jailings. Therefore, whenever you see a expo on a prison, people just make the assumption that black commit a significant higher number of crimes then any other ethnic group. But seeing as thesighter is just pulling shit from random blogs that agree with him, I'll go ahead and suggest you read "How to Lie with Statistics"by Darrell Huff. Carefully read thesighter's opinion blog. You'll see a number of the "cold hard facts" might have something to do with the Middle Easts constant political goal of no western interference. Also check out the great comment section there if you need proof that the same people who believe this shit are biased. | ||
|
thesighter
United States347 Posts
http://sweetness-light.com/archive/gaddafi-calls-arabs-backward-lazy-medieval "We take no significant credit for what's been achieved, because foreigners were the ones who did everything from the simplest to the biggest thing. Even to install a loudspeaker here, for instance, we used to bring a Korean or a Chinese to do it" "These days there are a lot of a dubious speeches and propaganda … which some naive people believe in … but we can counter them with the Holy Koran and with science. "These speeches will soon be prominent in Ramadan … When I switch on the TV and see a bearded man, and naive people calling him to ask for religious advice, I feel pity for him … Now this is like Europe in the Middle Ages, selling indulgences." | ||
|
tedster
984 Posts
On August 26 2010 18:10 Deadlyfish wrote: It's funny that if you disagree with building a moscue near ground zero, you hate all muslims all of a sudden. Whoever thinks muslims are all terrorists is obviously a racist, and probably not the smartest person in the world. I think they should be allowed to build there, they can build wherever they want. But why cant they just move it when people ask them to? Is that location so important that they cant just build it elsewhere? It's the exact same with the muhammad drawings, why do something just to piss people off? Just stop what you're doing cause it's obviously more important to other people than to yourself. Because they bought the goddamn property. They own it. Why don't you just move your house/business to a new place? I know you own the building and the property inside but people don't like your skin color so can't you just chalk it up as a loss and leave? | ||
|
tooly
2 Posts
On August 27 2010 00:54 thesighter wrote: The issue with this view is that the extremists in Islam are much more vocal and more readily accepted than the extremists in the other religions. Looking at all the countries of the Middle East, nearly every one is a theocracy or secular dictatorship pretending to be a republic/democracy. http://marcovilla.instablogs.com/entry/why-is-the-arab-world-so-backwards/ A recent UN development report on the region makes for sobering and very depressing reading: - If one takes out the export of oil, over 20 Arab countries with over 360 million people between then export less products to the world than tiny Belgium with only 10 million people. - Spain’s GDP is larger than the entire Arab world combined. - 360 million Arabs have a smaller manufactoring capacity than 5-million-people Finland. - Greece with just 11 million people translates more books than the entire Arab world. The Arabs have fallen behind in the attainment of knowlegde. More books are translated into Spanish in one year than have been translated into Arabic over the past few centuries. - No a single Arab nation is a established democracy. - Arabs have the highest rate of government revenue as percentage of GDP and highest rates of youth unemployment. - Not a single Arab university ranks in the top 500 compared to several in tiny Israel. HEY YOU KNOW WHO PUT THESE OPPRESSIVE DICTATORSHIPS AND THEOCRACIES? yea the west did. France and Britain to be exact. The world was a lot more peaceful before the hypocrites of the millennium from the west came in to EVERY SINGLE corner of the world to corrupt it. You invaded The Americas simply to annihilate its native people and claim it as your own leaving them with no son, wife, or mother. You send criminals you didn't want to Australia and without fail also completely erased the aborigines. Africa is one big mayhem. Surprisingly it was a lot more peaceful and advanced before the west apparently wanted to "save" them by "teaching" them the "Superior" culture according to what people used to say in that age. They saved them by selling them guns for gems and slaves and forcing upon the people of Africa and a vicious cycle of violence which to this day has its effects. China, oh China. China simply wanted to be left alone and thats all it ever asked. That was no excuse for the west though, lets drug the Chinese by shoving opium into their country in mass quantities till they finally gave in before their country became a population of a billion druggies. The Middle east, you invaded, you killed, and then left leaving dictatorships and theocracies then you turn around and the Middle easterners out on these "dictatorships". | ||
| ||
