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On August 06 2010 04:51 RifleCow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 04:44 LegendaryZ wrote:On August 06 2010 04:43 B1nary wrote:On August 06 2010 04:37 InToTheWannaB wrote:
If there no afterlife I won't really give a crap if im dead, and if there is a afterlife me and my cloneselfs are going to have a alot of stuff to talk about. Who knows maybe your conciousness/soul will transfer over if your body is remade, and if that happens even better. I like the optimism ^^ The absolute best-case scenario would be that the consciousness gets transfered over. Well considering the fact that the OP clearly states that the machine kills you, I think the assumption is that your consciousness isn't actually getting transferred over. What do you mean by "consciousness transfered over". If the other you has been reassembled to be you, then you have the same consciouness, you only begin to differ if both individuals continue to exist after they step out of the machine. If one is destroyed then it is not death but teleportation.
What I mean is there is no continuity for the person entering the machine - only the person exiting on the other side. If you believe they count as the same person simply because one ceased to exist as the other one was created, then that's fine. I don't see the two as the same because to me, it's like saying hydrogen atom A is the same atom as hydrogen atom B just because they have the same physical constitution. If hydrogen atom A was destroyed as hydrogen atom B was created on the other side of the universe at that exact moment, would we assume that they are the same atom just because they never co-existed and one was created the instant the other was born? We would recognize the two atoms as being separate. The conditions surrounding the creation of hydrogen atom B (whether purposely made or coincidentally made) would be irrelevant to us defining them as two separate things. Why would this be any different?
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On August 06 2010 04:51 RifleCow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 04:44 LegendaryZ wrote:On August 06 2010 04:43 B1nary wrote:On August 06 2010 04:37 InToTheWannaB wrote:
If there no afterlife I won't really give a crap if im dead, and if there is a afterlife me and my cloneselfs are going to have a alot of stuff to talk about. Who knows maybe your conciousness/soul will transfer over if your body is remade, and if that happens even better. I like the optimism ^^ The absolute best-case scenario would be that the consciousness gets transfered over. Well considering the fact that the OP clearly states that the machine kills you, I think the assumption is that your consciousness isn't actually getting transferred over. What do you mean by "consciousness transfered over". If the other you has been reassembled to be you, then you have the same consciouness, you only begin to differ if both individuals continue to exist after they step out of the machine. If one is destroyed then it is not death but teleportation.
I guess consciousness transfered over would be most akin to falling asleep, being transported to your destination, and waking up as opposed to the dying/cloning thing. But yeah, the OP does say to assume you do die. Just wishful thinking ^^
To say in line with the OP, I'll pose another question: would you willingly send a friendly loved one into the teleporter?
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Conceptually, you can make a very good case that the notion of "individual different particles" (and, scaling up, individual different atoms made up out of individual different particles) is just nonsense. If two particles in different places have identical properties -- as do, for example, all electrons -- then they are really the same particle in a serious way; if you don't treat them as the same particle, your math won't come out right. So it's a bit silly to quibble over whether you are made of the "same particles" or not.
Not going to write five more paragraphs on this, but you might be interested in http://lesswrong.com/lw/pl/no_individual_particles/ which is a good explanation (although it requires a little background on quantum states.)
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I think the OP just saw The Prestige.
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On August 06 2010 05:05 catamorphist wrote:Conceptually, you can make a very good case that the notion of "individual different particles" (and, scaling up, individual different atoms made up out of individual different particles) is just nonsense. If two particles in different places have identical properties -- as do, for example, all electrons -- then they are really the same particle in a serious way; if you don't treat them as the same particle, your math won't come out right. So it's a bit silly to quibble over whether you are made of the "same particles" or not. Not going to write five more paragraphs on this, but you might be interested in http://lesswrong.com/lw/pl/no_individual_particles/ which is a good explanation (although it requires a little background on quantum states.)
That's actually a really interesting link and I do remember having a discussion with my cousin regarding this a while back. Admittedly, I don't have any real background in quantum physics or theory except for the tidbits I get from books or various sources here and there...
I think quantum is pretty hard to swallow for a lot of people (even more so than relativity) simply because it completely flies in the face of just about everything we perceive the universe to be. Quantum gets pretty weird... -_-
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On August 06 2010 05:15 deathgod6 wrote:
I think the OP just saw The Prestige.
No.
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I've thought about this exact situation before, so I've pretty much worked out my stance on the issue.
Personally, I can see the benefits of using such a device, but I'd never use it. I have this weird phobia where I'm abnormally frightened of losing consciousness. It just... scares me... the idea of not being aware of anything, not being able to control anything, and how intensely similar that state is... to death. I guess you might say my issue is "fear of death redux". Because of this, I am always leery of falling asleep, whether by exhaustion or administered (sleeping aids, anesthesia, etc).
So, as for the teleportation device, I'm just not sure I'd be able to handle it. If I were to use it, I would die for a small period of time, and an exact replica of myself would be created. That's all well and good; I'm familiar with the idea of "Is it really 'me'?", and I don't have any illusions about my "essence" or soul being absent.
But would this replica's consciousness be my own?
I know it's difficult to truly define consciousness, and whether a replica's consciousness would mirror yours. The possibility of not having the same consciousness, though, terrifies me. Maybe I'm just envisioning some surreal "prisoner in my own mind" ordeal, but even so, the idea scares me.
However, I wonder if my stance would change if the teleportation device not only recreated you, but improved you as well. Would your answer change if your new "you" suddenly was free of sickle cell anemia, or diabetes, or some such condition?
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This reminds me of the hugh jackman movie where he goes into the box knowing he has to die every night for a magic trick
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This is just a cloning machine with a really long reach. Like it makes the clone far away, then a guy kills you as you are getting out of the machine. I am very lazy but I would never be so lazy I'd rather die than take a trip.
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To me its the exact same thing as what others would like teleportation to be where your are dissembled here, your particles move instantly to another spot, and are reassembled there.
Except in this, you are scanned and dissembled, and then reassembled in another place instantly with no transfer of anything but data.
I see no problem with it, no matter what with teleportation you are "dying" really. In one you just take your parts with you and the other you get new ones. Either way you come out the same person, the exact same person.
Edit: Not to mention, you wouldn't know that you've "died" really you would just think you came out the other end. I believe we are just atoms so well... there is no "consciousness" special to me, its just the way my atoms are put together and my brain perseveres things. Nothing special about any person on earth if we could make a clone of you 100% the same molecularity then they are you and you no difference at all. There is no original, no clone, just one person in two places at once.
Once things start taking their natural course and start changing, then yes you become different but for the instant that the other one is created there is no difference between you and you then have someone that is you 100%.
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I've only read through the first page but wtf. Just because it's exactly the same as you doesn't make it you. YOU die. And then there's another version of you walking around. But it's not like your conscious transfers over to this new body.
Your personal experience would end. Only the new you would think he/she made the trip fine, but you've already died. It doesnt matter if the new person is exactly the same as you and shares your memories.
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Yeah. Mind doesn't precede body, body precedes mind. It would be like blacking out for five seconds or needing a defibrillator.
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Alright, I feel like all of you who are so willing to jump into the machine and talking about how your atoms change all the time don't really understand the gravity of the situation, of killing yourself and some copy being made.
Consider this situation instead:
Same concept, there's a machine that scans you completely and at the other end reconstructs your physical being completely, wherever that may be. Now say the other end of the machine is like 10 feet away and it takes like 30 seconds to complete the reconstruction. Now imagine that the reconstruction process is perfect, but the deconstruction of your old body isn't perfect, so that instead of being vaporized instantly a knife just pops out and stabs you repeatedly all over your body. As you stumble backwards, fall down, gasping for air, groaning in agony as you slowly bleed to death you start to think "OMG, it was a trick, why the fuck did I step in that machine??" Feebly you call out for help "Someone help me...I'm dying...I'm dying." You suddenly see someone out of the corner of your eye approaching you and feel relieved. "Oh, I'll be saved, thank goodness." As you turn your head to look at your savior you see yourself peering down at you. It's your clone, your copy, your exact replica the machine made. He bends down and says something like "No man, don't worry, you're not dying. See? It worked. I'm right here. I'm YOU." You think to yourself "no, no I'm dying. I'm in pain. I'm dying."
In this position I can't see anyone feeling relieved that the copy machine worked and that you'll go on living. BECAUSE YOU WON'T! You'll be DEAD! Do you understand now?? Even if it's an exact copy of you. It's NOT YOU. It's someone else who doesn't deserve to own the memories that you have. It's a fake, a facade, an imitation, but it's not YOU.
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On August 06 2010 07:23 BrogMaN wrote:
Alright, I feel like all of you who are so willing to jump into the machine and talking about how your atoms change all the time don't really understand the gravity of the situation, of killing yourself and some copy being made.
Consider this situation instead:
Same concept, there's a machine that scans you completely and at the other end reconstructs your physical being completely, wherever that may be. Now say the other end of the machine is like 10 feet away and it takes like 30 seconds to complete the reconstruction. Now imagine that the reconstruction process is perfect, but the deconstruction of your old body isn't perfect, so that instead of being vaporized instantly a knife just pops out and stabs you repeatedly all over your body. As you stumble backwards, fall down, gasping for air, groaning in agony as you slowly bleed to death you start to think "OMG, it was a trick, why the fuck did I step in that machine??" Feebly you call out for help "Someone help me...I'm dying...I'm dying." You suddenly see someone out of the corner of your eye approaching you and feel relieved. "Oh, I'll be saved, thank goodness." As you turn your head to look at your savior you see yourself peering down at you. It's your clone, your copy, your exact replica the machine made. He bends down and says something like "No man, don't worry, you're not dying. See? It worked. I'm right here. I'm YOU." You think to yourself "no, no I'm dying. I'm in pain. I'm dying."
In this position I can't see anyone feeling relieved that the copy machine worked and that you'll go on living. BECAUSE YOU WON'T! You'll be DEAD! Do you understand now?? Even if it's an exact copy of you. It's NOT YOU. It's someone else who doesn't deserve to own the memories that you have. It's a fake, a facade, an imitation, but it's not YOU.
I literally have no idea what you're talking about. I would be fine with that scenario, except I would sure prefer that it were a painless death for my original rather than being knifed.
Could you explain exactly what problem you have with that? Do you believe in some dualist soul that is in the original and not the copy?
By definition, if you take my brain and reconstruct it somewhere else, it's me. The current state of my mind is me. If you construct it from scratch, or in a computer simulation, then there's two of me. If you kill the original, then there's one of me, which I can hardly complain about, since that's how many I had in the first place.
I don't think you can possibly change my mind, but I'm curious if you can articulate where you are coming from here.
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I wouldn't do it because with my luck I would come out the otherside into the body of Andy Dick. Fortunately I'll never have that option, or likely see that sort of technology. If somebody sacrificed themselves to make sure it worked the right way, then that might change my mind.
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Canada8033 Posts
On August 06 2010 07:23 BrogMaN wrote:
Alright, I feel like all of you who are so willing to jump into the machine and talking about how your atoms change all the time don't really understand the gravity of the situation, of killing yourself and some copy being made.
Consider this situation instead:
Same concept, there's a machine that scans you completely and at the other end reconstructs your physical being completely, wherever that may be. Now say the other end of the machine is like 10 feet away and it takes like 30 seconds to complete the reconstruction. Now imagine that the reconstruction process is perfect, but the deconstruction of your old body isn't perfect, so that instead of being vaporized instantly a knife just pops out and stabs you repeatedly all over your body. As you stumble backwards, fall down, gasping for air, groaning in agony as you slowly bleed to death you start to think "OMG, it was a trick, why the fuck did I step in that machine??" Feebly you call out for help "Someone help me...I'm dying...I'm dying." You suddenly see someone out of the corner of your eye approaching you and feel relieved. "Oh, I'll be saved, thank goodness." As you turn your head to look at your savior you see yourself peering down at you. It's your clone, your copy, your exact replica the machine made. He bends down and says something like "No man, don't worry, you're not dying. See? It worked. I'm right here. I'm YOU." You think to yourself "no, no I'm dying. I'm in pain. I'm dying."
In this position I can't see anyone feeling relieved that the copy machine worked and that you'll go on living. BECAUSE YOU WON'T! You'll be DEAD! Do you understand now?? Even if it's an exact copy of you. It's NOT YOU. It's someone else who doesn't deserve to own the memories that you have. It's a fake, a facade, an imitation, but it's not YOU.
looool. See, I wouldn't be okay with that, because what's the point of teleporting yourself ten feet away? 
More seriously, if the reconstructed person has the same body, mind, and thoughts as I do, I would still consider it to be me. Despite the fact that the original me would be dead, it wouldn't matter, since it is still making my mark (however small) on the universe.
Basically, my view is something like this: Who cares if the original is dead? In fact, what was the purpose of having the original exist in the first place (eg. why do I bother with life)? As long as the body fulfills its function (acting out my will), it doesn't really matter to me if the original is dead. The reconstructed person is, for all practical purposes, still me, even if it's not technically me.
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I would pretty much only do this is a situation where I have to die. If I don't have to die I'd rather have this me live life instead of going to nothing or the afterlife (depending on your belief) earlier just for the sake of teleportation.
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The smart, logical me uses the machine because it's god damn me who comes out of it, exactly. I blink, omg i am a copy, who cares.
Emotionally i am worried about what happens when i teleport, oh noes ITS NOT MEEE because i die, omg, why would anyone do thaaat.
Eventually, my brains will win and i will teleport like a manly man, with the strenght of a thousand suns.
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On August 06 2010 09:24 Spazer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 07:23 BrogMaN wrote:
Alright, I feel like all of you who are so willing to jump into the machine and talking about how your atoms change all the time don't really understand the gravity of the situation, of killing yourself and some copy being made.
Consider this situation instead:
Same concept, there's a machine that scans you completely and at the other end reconstructs your physical being completely, wherever that may be. Now say the other end of the machine is like 10 feet away and it takes like 30 seconds to complete the reconstruction. Now imagine that the reconstruction process is perfect, but the deconstruction of your old body isn't perfect, so that instead of being vaporized instantly a knife just pops out and stabs you repeatedly all over your body. As you stumble backwards, fall down, gasping for air, groaning in agony as you slowly bleed to death you start to think "OMG, it was a trick, why the fuck did I step in that machine??" Feebly you call out for help "Someone help me...I'm dying...I'm dying." You suddenly see someone out of the corner of your eye approaching you and feel relieved. "Oh, I'll be saved, thank goodness." As you turn your head to look at your savior you see yourself peering down at you. It's your clone, your copy, your exact replica the machine made. He bends down and says something like "No man, don't worry, you're not dying. See? It worked. I'm right here. I'm YOU." You think to yourself "no, no I'm dying. I'm in pain. I'm dying."
In this position I can't see anyone feeling relieved that the copy machine worked and that you'll go on living. BECAUSE YOU WON'T! You'll be DEAD! Do you understand now?? Even if it's an exact copy of you. It's NOT YOU. It's someone else who doesn't deserve to own the memories that you have. It's a fake, a facade, an imitation, but it's not YOU.
looool. See, I wouldn't be okay with that, because what's the point of teleporting yourself ten feet away? More seriously, if the reconstructed person has the same body, mind, and thoughts as I do, I would still consider it to be me. Despite the fact that the original me would be dead, it wouldn't matter, since it is still making my mark (however small) on the universe. Basically, my view is something like this: Who cares if the original is dead? In fact, what was the purpose of having the original exist in the first place (eg. why do I bother with life)? As long as the body fulfills its function (acting out my will), it doesn't really matter to me if the original is dead. The reconstructed person is, for all practical purposes, still me, even if it's not technically me.
K his scenario is so far removed from what everyone else is talking about. We aren't talking about some guy recreating you, then stabbing you violently until you die. Because in that case, what the resassembled version and the nonexistant version experience are two different events. If one of the beings experiences a single thing differently than the other one then they automatically become two seperate entities and therefore are two different people. When you kill that person violently they expereince their own death and hence the one that does not experience is seperate. What true teleportation would be is if one person is instantly gone, deassembled, from the world, and the next moment somewhere else he is instantly reassembled. I liken this to an electron not smoothly transitioning between quantum states, but when absorbing a photon of proper frequency jumping instant to a higher orbital energy level. The electron does not exist between the energy states, it ceases to exist and then exists somewhere else.
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I'd definately never do it. The inital question here states that I would die, and an exact copy of me would be created somewhere else, and I'm not a fan of dying. I can't see how anyone could advocate for this procedure at all. It seems like people have a very odd conception who 'me' in this scenario is.
BrogMaNs anecdote is pretty decent to explain a pretty central part that some people seem to forget or ignore. For anyone viewing the teleportation or interacting with the copied person post-teleportation, they would see no change - they'd assume nothing changed, and for everyone else in the world, that would be right - an exact copy with the same mind, same thoughts and whatever else. For the copy, too, everything would be right - he'd remember his morning wank, going to the teleporter, then popping up in the super-secret deep space base on Mars.
But you, who entered the teleport, would be dead. No more experiences, no more memories, no more anything. Wether a copy of you exists somewhere else or not is completely irrelevant - you're dead, so your conciousness doesn't exist any more. It's game over for you.
Speaking of the Prestige, that's also the kinda neat part about it. The stage trick dropped the original and created a copy, meaning the original magician died (since the original was the one dropped into the water) the first time the machine was used, and the copies kept living. While the copies thought they were the original who "just got lucky", the reality was that each and every time they used the machine, the current "original" would not be able to reap the benefits of the effect, as he would be dying.
So yea, while for all intents and purposes for anyone else, the teleport would work, it would be irrelevant for you since you'd be dead. If you want to die, why care about wether or not a copy of you wanks about pretending to be you somewhere else? You'd not see what he sees, experience what he experiences, think what he thinks. You'd not be thinking anything, becase you'd be dead.
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EPT
