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On November 29 2010 08:24 Slaughter wrote:
So far all this seems to be accomplishing is fucking up relations between nations and causing all sorts of "drama". Not really useful at all :[
It is useful in many ways. So many things that have been denied by the US government in interviews and statements, but that weren't really a well-kept secret, can now no longer be credibly denied. Secretary of Defense Gates calls Russia an "oligarchy run by the secret services", how can any further comments on Russia's democracy by the USgov be taken seriously if they wouldn't acknowledge such statements by him?
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On November 29 2010 08:24 Slaughter wrote:
So far all this seems to be accomplishing is fucking up relations between nations and causing all sorts of "drama". Not really useful at all :[
cant hide from the truth forever
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On November 29 2010 08:08 lowercase wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 06:28 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
Of the things I've read so far, this just seems like political cheap shots that can lead to volatility. Most of these are candid reports from one agency or person to another. In bringing them to light, all it does is play to insult those who said and those who are spoken about. Transparency is generally good, but that doesn't mean the removal of secrecy all together.
Some of the examples would be the rumor of the Libyan leader fucking his nurse, the royal family's problems, and in 250,000 documents I'm sure there are many more less-than-flattering comments. Rather than sift through the documents and release ones that are actually important, they release all of them just to say they aren't holding anything back.
Largely though... all stupid. Nothing I've seen so far has been shocking or even overly interest. Not to call it much ado about nothing, but that isn't far off. As other outlets sift though these documents perhaps something interesting or important will come up. I found the use of US embassies across the world as spying operations to be pretty shocking, personally. Collecting DNA, fingerprints, and passwords? Jesus, if you 're not shocked by that, what will shock you? There is just so much stuff to read, it will really require a collective effort to sort through it all. I'm really looking forward to reading Spiegel this week.
Wait, you're shocked that US Embassies reported information back to America for more than simple purposes of diplomatic relations between the 2 countries? While it is perhaps a somewhat slippery slope to encourage these people to look out for information, I don't believe there was any encouragement aimed at them to legitimately spy and break international law.
I just don't find that shocking in the least, and would actually be more shocked if the government wasn't attempting to gain knowledge on all of its partners around the world. It might seem dubious... but that's how shit works.
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When you get picked on, you make friends with the other picked on guys. No wonder Iran and NK have a relationship, weak though it may be.
Fundamentally, China enjoys having NK "fuck shit up" in East Asia. They act as a buffer against having American troops on their front door, and they harass and intimidate their competitors, S. Korea and Japan. Essentially, NK serves the same function for China that Israel serves for the USA: stirring up trouble with their enemies.
The only problem with Iran is that they present an alternate power in the region fundamentally opposed to American influence. Saudi, UAE, Qatar, Oman, Yemen, and Iraq are all well "in bed" with the Americans. They are considered allies because they want to maintain the status quo, i.e.: American hegemony in the region. The USA turns a blind eye to humanitarian issues in the area (Saudi is absolutely the most totalitarian Islamic regime in the world, with a terrible record of human rights violations), as long as the governments keep American investment in energy strong, and keep the oil tankers moving. The USA wants to keep the Arab world fragmented and in turmoil, and the governments of each "ally" state are terribly corrupt and self-serving. Iran, by challenging the status quo and being openly critical of American policy is creating an alternative to American control of the region, and the USA and her allies will NOT allow this to happen.
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Zurich15355 Posts
This is fantastic. We are living in a great time that allows something like this to happen. I am truly happy about this.
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I've read some of the documents and while they do reveal that US embassies have been a huge source for spying (which I bet every embassy does, not just the US), but that the US seems to be taking a huge role in every aspect of foreign diplomacy in every part of the world and that the assessments mostly seem to be concerned with radical foreign governments. I think the countries most hurt by this leak are not the US, but are countries like Saudi Arabia, China, Turkey, France, Italy, and the uk. It also seems to detail how frsutrated the US is with trying to keep these nations from doing crazy things to each other and possibly also the frustration with governments not taking the right military actions.
I really doubt there will be any response from american citizens, but I fully expect huge riots in turkey, italy, pakistan, and Iran over this leaked information.
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On November 29 2010 04:43 mmp wrote:
From the Times article:
A global computer hacking effort: China’s Politburo directed the intrusion into Google’s computer systems in that country, a Chinese contact told the American Embassy in Beijing in January, one cable reported. The Google hacking was part of a coordinated campaign of computer sabotage carried out by government operatives, private security experts and Internet outlaws recruited by the Chinese government. They have broken into American government computers and those of Western allies, the Dalai Lama and American businesses since 2002, cables said. If anyone wanna know more about that:
http://techcrunch.com/2010/11/28/wikileaked-cables-china-google/
http://techcrunch.com/2010/01/12/google-china-attacks/ <- This is back from January, when Google was saying they were being hacked by China to steal info. But no one was too sure of what was really going on.
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On November 29 2010 08:08 lowercase wrote:
There is just so much stuff to read, it will really require a collective effort to sort through it all. I'm really looking forward to reading Spiegel this week.
why would a canadian waste his money on an inferior source, even paying for it, when better content is available for free?!
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to be honest the only thing i didnt know was US bribing other countries to take its prisoners
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On November 29 2010 08:48 b_unnies wrote:
to be honest the only thing i didnt know was US bribing other countries to take its prisoners
bribing? sounds more like extortion to me.
/e oh, and to be honest, there are tons of things you didn't know.
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On November 29 2010 08:32 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 08:08 lowercase wrote:On November 29 2010 06:28 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
Of the things I've read so far, this just seems like political cheap shots that can lead to volatility. Most of these are candid reports from one agency or person to another. In bringing them to light, all it does is play to insult those who said and those who are spoken about. Transparency is generally good, but that doesn't mean the removal of secrecy all together.
Some of the examples would be the rumor of the Libyan leader fucking his nurse, the royal family's problems, and in 250,000 documents I'm sure there are many more less-than-flattering comments. Rather than sift through the documents and release ones that are actually important, they release all of them just to say they aren't holding anything back.
Largely though... all stupid. Nothing I've seen so far has been shocking or even overly interest. Not to call it much ado about nothing, but that isn't far off. As other outlets sift though these documents perhaps something interesting or important will come up. I found the use of US embassies across the world as spying operations to be pretty shocking, personally. Collecting DNA, fingerprints, and passwords? Jesus, if you 're not shocked by that, what will shock you? There is just so much stuff to read, it will really require a collective effort to sort through it all. I'm really looking forward to reading Spiegel this week. Wait, you're shocked that US Embassies reported information back to America for more than simple purposes of diplomatic relations between the 2 countries? While it is perhaps a somewhat slippery slope to encourage these people to look out for information, I don't believe there was any encouragement aimed at them to legitimately spy and break international law. I just don't find that shocking in the least, and would actually be more shocked if the government wasn't attempting to gain knowledge on all of its partners around the world. It might seem dubious... but that's how shit works.
Espionage through diplomats I think is really something everyone knows that happens. The trick is to not get caught doing it. You think because someone's a diplomat, you dont have counter-espionage guys on them? I dont think so. Diplomats are quite closely monitored imo for there security as well as to make sure they dont wear the spy hat so easily.
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United States22883 Posts
On November 29 2010 08:08 lowercase wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 06:28 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
Of the things I've read so far, this just seems like political cheap shots that can lead to volatility. Most of these are candid reports from one agency or person to another. In bringing them to light, all it does is play to insult those who said and those who are spoken about. Transparency is generally good, but that doesn't mean the removal of secrecy all together.
Some of the examples would be the rumor of the Libyan leader fucking his nurse, the royal family's problems, and in 250,000 documents I'm sure there are many more less-than-flattering comments. Rather than sift through the documents and release ones that are actually important, they release all of them just to say they aren't holding anything back.
Largely though... all stupid. Nothing I've seen so far has been shocking or even overly interest. Not to call it much ado about nothing, but that isn't far off. As other outlets sift though these documents perhaps something interesting or important will come up. I found the use of US embassies across the world as spying operations to be pretty shocking, personally. Collecting DNA, fingerprints, and passwords? Jesus, if you 're not shocked by that, what will shock you? There is just so much stuff to read, it will really require a collective effort to sort through it all. I'm really looking forward to reading Spiegel this week.
I haven't been able to read the reports or anything yet since I'm still having some eye problems, but I thought I'd reply to this.
This is common knowledge amongst anyone in a foreign service, and it's true for all countries. If you work in an embassy, you're essentially a spy. It doesn't mean you're breaking into things or hiding your identity, but the job of foreign service officers is to monitor political/economic/business situations and compile intelligence reports. Somewhere behind closed doors, further digging goes on but even publicly, embassies serve that purpose. I can't think of a serious country that doesn't do that.
From what people are saying in this thread, it sounds like the seedy side of all governments are being exposed, which is slightly interesting but not too shocking. Even the Saudi-Iran thing isn't a surprise to anyone in power on either side. It would become a problem if something like the US prisons in the Middle East got revealed, but perhaps moreso in those countries than in the US.
I guess it's still a good thing that this is getting exposure, so that more people begin to understand how complicated things really are. The more people that begin to understand how little they know, the fewer that will claim to have all the answers.
EDIT: Or maybe we'll get something awesome like the US war plans for a Canadian invasion (which probably exist.) Operation Maple Syrup or something.
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On November 29 2010 08:47 Rflcrx wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 08:08 lowercase wrote:
There is just so much stuff to read, it will really require a collective effort to sort through it all. I'm really looking forward to reading Spiegel this week. why would a canadian waste his money on an inferior source, even paying for it, when better content is available for free?!
I'm not paying for Spiegel, I can read it online. The Guardian in the UK and some others are also trying to distill the information for us a bit... whether you can trust it, or not, is up to you.
I think the best analysis will, as usual, come from the least biased news source I know of: Al Jazeera.
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On November 29 2010 08:48 b_unnies wrote:
to be honest the only thing i didnt know was US bribing other countries to take its prisoners
You eye-balled some article, and concluded that that was the only thing you didn't already 'know'? I don't think you're really being honest with yourself.
Personally, I'm interested in the analysis of the more relevant aspects of the leak. It's so unfortunate that there don't seem to be any files from the US embassy in my country. Maybe I just missed it. Anyways, fun stuff.
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Nothing (or very little) in these documents so far runs against what people already knew, by and large, to be true.
The unfortunate thing is that a great deal of anti-American sentiment will be stirred up by individuals reluctant to admit their own country's participation in some of these rather distasteful events/discussions revealed by this leak.
All this shows is that governments do things and hide them from public view to portray themselves in a more positive light, hardly a shocking or groundbreaking revelation by any means.
You don't go around with a sign around your neck saying you masturbate to threesome albino midget dominatrix porn, but we all know that at least some people do.
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On November 29 2010 09:00 lowercase wrote:
I think the best analysis will, as usual, come from the least biased news source I know of: Al Jazeera.
ROFL, least biased? They're all biased and Al Jazeera isn't anything special.
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On November 29 2010 08:20 Mohdoo wrote:
Can someone a bit more knowledgeable on this topic explain to me how China fits into the Iran/North-Korea relations? I would assume that China has conflicting objectives with the entire Muslim world basically. How can China be comfortable with NK arming Iran with advanced weapons?
Keeps USA busy and bleeds its resources.
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On November 29 2010 07:47 Bartuc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 07:31 Nizaris wrote:On November 29 2010 07:16 Yttrasil wrote:http://cablegate.wikileaks.org/Here you can find many of the documents released and more to come http://cablegate.wikileaks.org/cable/2010/02/10STATE17263.htmlThis document for example really got my interest, about the missile development in North Korea and Iran, a meeting between the US and Russia discussing their capabilities. I will have fun in the next few months, especially reading documents from my own country Sweden =) fairly interesting document especially the part saying the russians believe pakistan is more of a threat then NK or Iran. Since they already have the nukes and the delivery systems and it would be feasible for a terrorist to infiltrate their facilities. + Show Spoiler +¶62. (S) Korolev noted that while the focus of the discussions
had been on the missile threats from North Korea and Iran,
Russia did not think discussion should be limited to only
those threats from Iran and North Korea. In the Russian
view, there is another serious threat that should be
discussed: Pakistan. Pakistan is a nation with nuclear
weapons, various delivery systems, and a domestic situation
that is highly unstable. Russia assesses that Islamists are
not only seeking power in Pakistan but are also trying to get
their hands on nuclear materials. That is actually a scary thought, the Taliban gaining political control in Pakistan and attaining the entire nuclear program of the country.
Yea, there's a big RED button on the warheads that says "Enter Target Coordinates and Press me".
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I would bet everything I own that every single country does the same shit. The difference is either noone cares enough to look into it or they are better at keeping their secrets secret.
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United States22883 Posts
On November 29 2010 09:10 Somi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 07:47 Bartuc wrote:On November 29 2010 07:31 Nizaris wrote:On November 29 2010 07:16 Yttrasil wrote:http://cablegate.wikileaks.org/Here you can find many of the documents released and more to come http://cablegate.wikileaks.org/cable/2010/02/10STATE17263.htmlThis document for example really got my interest, about the missile development in North Korea and Iran, a meeting between the US and Russia discussing their capabilities. I will have fun in the next few months, especially reading documents from my own country Sweden =) fairly interesting document especially the part saying the russians believe pakistan is more of a threat then NK or Iran. Since they already have the nukes and the delivery systems and it would be feasible for a terrorist to infiltrate their facilities. + Show Spoiler +¶62. (S) Korolev noted that while the focus of the discussions
had been on the missile threats from North Korea and Iran,
Russia did not think discussion should be limited to only
those threats from Iran and North Korea. In the Russian
view, there is another serious threat that should be
discussed: Pakistan. Pakistan is a nation with nuclear
weapons, various delivery systems, and a domestic situation
that is highly unstable. Russia assesses that Islamists are
not only seeking power in Pakistan but are also trying to get
their hands on nuclear materials. That is actually a scary thought, the Taliban gaining political control in Pakistan and attaining the entire nuclear program of the country. Yea, there's a big RED button on the warheads that says "Enter Target Coordinates and Press me" Don't worry, if the Taliban or other extremists even come close, the Indian army will be inside your borders before you even know it. Cue WW3!
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EPT
