EPT[Philosophy] Profound prisoner's dilemma. - Page 11
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kemoryan
Spain1506 Posts
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iSTime
1579 Posts
So the point of philosophy is to analyze an incoherent situation and make up some more rambling bullshit to "solve" it? | ||
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Bluestar-
13 Posts
Also he more than once clearly states that there is one solution he came to and kept saying that to everyone providing an explanation of his own, practically dismissing them, yet he never revealed it to us, ultimately saying that the answer varies from person to person after all. In any case, after these first realizations, i tryed putting together everything he said to attempt make some sense of it, since mostly it just appeared like ramblings to me, so basically, as far as i can understand, he was presenting us with the following scenario: Immagine you grew up in a prison cell, never leaving said prison cell, and you yourself not being completely aware that you are in a prison, you know nothing of the outside world and the only (scarce) contact you ever had was with the man who is keeping you prisoner and is mistreating you. Your intellectual capacity is limited to, say, that of a member of a small primitive tribe deep in the amazon, who has never ventured beyond the forest and has never seen anyone else but the tribe elders. One day your captor approaches you and reveals to you a lever, he tells you that there is another cell next to yours with another person that grew up just like you, if you pull the lever the other man dies, yet you go free, if you do not, you will continue to be segregated to your cell forever. The other person is presented with the very same options and since you never had any other human contacts you have no reason to believe your captor is lying to you. What do you do ? This is though, not my attempt to accredit anything to the OP, since he pretended to ''solve'' this ''model'' by using convetional logic, using concepts such as guilt, remorse, life beyond death, abstrac concepts such as voidness of being(or something),and so on, which are all human made concepts, developed through society and imparted to us through our peers and thusly non existant in such a scenario,to dismiss basic human instincts, foremost of which, we will all agree, is the desire of survival, which is the reason the answer might not necesserily be to use the lever: as a prisoner, your captor mistreated you, yet he also fed you and kept you alive, he now presents you with the option of entering the (to you unknown) outside world, while staying in prison you will continue to be fed, yet you will suffer and perhaps die through the other captives hands as he pulls the lever, yet if you pull the lever and thusly be set free you will face a world that you do not know whether you will be able to survive in or not. So possibly resulting in both captives remaining captives forever, never using the lever. Of course this might all just be rubbish and my personal attempt to make this thread somewhat meaningful after all since i was very disappointed and bored as i reached the end, sorry. | ||
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Stropheum
United States1124 Posts
On July 20 2010 01:38 zulu_nation8 wrote: I don't understand why there should be a solution to this riddle? It's not so much that there's a right answer that's lurking around somewhere. It's mostly a morality thing. Look up the allegory of the fat man in the cave. Good example | ||
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Ogyusuh
United States52 Posts
With the scenario that bluestar has brought up, assuming that his analysis of the OP's hints and additions to the initial question are correct, there will be no reason for the man, who knows nothing of happiness as we know it, to desire freedom from his "prison". From the prespective of the man who has never left that prison and knows nothing of the happiness of the outside world, evolutionary instinct would suggest that he would remain in the jail cell where he will survive. However another tangent would be if he knew that the outside wold and freedom would be a better thing, he would kill the other man without hesitation for he does not know anything of compasion or love, he only knows his cell and has his will to survive. Perhaps his endless torture is not what we assume it is either? some people we consider strange enjoy pain and avoid traditional happiness. What if the prisoner's sense of pain is our definition of happiness?? In the end there are too many different directions this question can go while taking account the OP's additional comments. The original question would have a logical answer, explained earlier in the thread about the weight of death happiness and toture in a conventional matter. however in the version offered by the OP perhaps the man and the other man are clones and will imitate each other, then there is only death or torture in either way, maybe th unknowing man will stay in his cell trying to avoid the possible risk of death of the outside world, perhaps he does not even know what death is? so many different questions can be raised and personally I cannot figure out a definite answer that does not have some tangent that comes off of it | ||
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RhaegarBeast
Bulgaria113 Posts
Oh, I just think it's a great metaphor for life - say you can see the mage as the unknown force that keeps you in this world. The other side is what lies beyond your own experience. The dilemma is that you never have sufficient knowledge of the other side to predict what's best for any of you, but you must still make choices and those choices define you as a person. As long as you resist making choices, you're just a puppet of the unknown force (the mage). Everything you do comes from outside pressure. Definitely no free will there and hardly any life either. But slowly the pressure causes people to change and the bigger the pressure the bigger the change. Eventually the puppet makes a choice by itself, because it just can't take it anymore and it is suddenly alive. I like how they put it in "V for Vendetta". You become an idea and ideas are bulletproof. I also suspect that In the end the intention that you hold at all times will eventually manifest.Why do I believe that? It's difficult to explain. It's just that everything is connected. There is no vacuum in the world.Everything counts. In the end it's not all about whether you attack or defend or suicide or sacrifice. There is never sufficient information to judge what those choices will bring you if you're uncertain about what you want to accomplish. What matters ultimately is who you want to be and what ideal you want to manifest in the world. So leave the rest to the mage! If you're still uncertain why the mage is such a sadistic bastard - here is the explanation. Fear exists to bend people's will. Ultimate fear binds a person completely, but as I said - diamonds are made under incredible pressure. When torn between 2 impossibly bad choices one has no choice but to outgrow them. "Only when you've lost everything are you free to do anything." In the end the mage is not really evil. It's just necessity - weaknesses are always exploited, but one can't take away something without giving up something else in return. Sooner or later the boy ceases to exist and the man is left in his place. Is this so scary? I don't think so now that I'm no longer a boy. Similarly the prisoners have to shed their old selves to embrace new ones. And that's all folks. I'm done for now. Flame me as much as you want, but understand that I just wanted to share my most precious insight with you. Don't be too ungrateful. And last, but not least - what I love about this dilemma is that there are infinitely many roads that you can walk to arrive at a new solution. That's why I thought it would make for a meaningful discussion. It seems I was wrong. | ||
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Subversive
Australia2229 Posts
You need to think long and hard before you write an OP. Then revise it, make it more readable and edit out mistakes and put in ideas you forgot to mention originally. At the end you need a polished document that meets your goal - in this case people thinking about morality. What you have here is a rambling mess that goes on and on and eventually makes most people angry with you. I think you should rewrite the entire OP and then ask a series of questions for discussion. But it's probably far too late for that. So just try harder on your next one. Edit What you just wrote above would have served more usefully on page 1 rather than page 11. Perhaps spoilered. Or perhaps you just needed to work on your OP to get this sort of detailed response. | ||
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RhaegarBeast
Bulgaria113 Posts
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RhaegarBeast
Bulgaria113 Posts
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Ogyusuh
United States52 Posts
The question is What would you do or what would the man most likely do or should do to reach happiness? Is the answer to make a decision because deciding makes you "alive" in someway? What about animals are they "dead"? They only live to breed and survive and the same could be said of humans. So if the man is physically alive isnt he fufilling his primal purpose, expecially if he knows nothing of happiness as we know it then he should theoretically return to his primal ancestral instincts where his sole purpose is to survive. | ||
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Subversive
Australia2229 Posts
On July 20 2010 02:12 RhaegarBeast wrote: QFT Subversive. Thanks. I liked your post just before mine btw. I'm glad there was a point to all of this. Anyway, nice post, raised some interesting questions and points. | ||
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Ogyusuh
United States52 Posts
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RhaegarBeast
Bulgaria113 Posts
Eh, I might be wrong, but you can't fault the blind man for denying that red exists.  | ||
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Coagulation
United States9633 Posts
Honestly i dont see why people are getting bent out of shape over this. Cut the guy some slack.. its not like hes intentionally started this thread with the objective of wasting your time. | ||
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Mingeek
United States35 Posts
Wait, but then I guess they both die. Oh well, then everybody dies. THERE IS NO ANSWER D: | ||
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RhaegarBeast
Bulgaria113 Posts
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Coagulation
United States9633 Posts
On July 20 2010 02:48 RhaegarBeast wrote: Nothing ever dies. ya im pretty sure shit dies. whats your definition of death | ||
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Badjas
Netherlands2038 Posts
On July 20 2010 01:36 Stropheum wrote: As the op said in some of his responses, this does make a good metaphor for life, well, at least one of the scenarios does. We're constantly faced with situations that may benefit us and at the same time harm others, or inversely help other people but affect us in a negative way. In this sense none of us are ever completely free and it's up to us to decide when to help ourselves and when other people need help more We as a race are bound by laws, social norms, and our own morality. In that sense we are never truly free and by your definition, have no life at all. So through extension of your logic, as long as we obey any rules that don't directly benefit us or appeal to us as individuals should be ignored and we as humans should only act on impulse and selfishness. Allegories are fun ^_^ You read me wrong. When I say "a life without freedom is not a life at all", I mean that like "a life without freedom is a bad life". Bad enough to be not worth living it, perhaps (euthanasia thoughts pop up). You're forced into situations where you might harm others while you don't want to do that. That you don't want to do that is either mentally programmed by your genetics (as brought forth by evolution of 'the group' I'd reason) or you're a sociopath and you actually don't care about others. Realistically if you can get away with harming others for your personal benefit, without getting the negative social (or mental) side effects, then it is the wise thing to do if you want to fulfill your end of the evolutionary process. | ||
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RhaegarBeast
Bulgaria113 Posts
On July 20 2010 02:50 Coagulation wrote: ya im pretty sure shit dies. whats your definition of death I'm not going into this topic, thank you very much. | ||
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XeliN
United Kingdom1755 Posts
The identical is merely an illusion, his reality does not matter, what matters is that it is believed, or ultimately that it is overcome. Am I playing right ? | ||
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