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On July 18 2010 10:00 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2010 09:09 Tyraz wrote:On July 18 2010 08:55 Ghostcom wrote:On July 18 2010 08:48 Batch wrote:On July 18 2010 08:20 Ghostcom wrote:
Just a question, he commited armed robbery, probably mentally traumatized those he robbed, why should I feel any pity for him? imho he even got off too lightly... I'm fine with these sort of people ending in dead-end jobs - they aren't worth any better. This is how traumatized you will be after having a gun aimed at you: |>----<| This is how traumatized you will be after being "forced" into drugs, getting raped, getting beaten, getting shielded from the outside world, seen interns cut each other open and ripping the guts out. |>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<| Yeah, he got off too lightly... I happen to work on an open psychiatric ward and have actually met people for whom being robbed with a gun has happend. They have trouble leaving their homes, they can't keep up their job and they have to take medications just to get some sleep which is still a terrible sleep. And the worst part about it is that they couldn't in any way have avoided the situation. If you think he got off lightly you should visit a psychiatric hospital sometime... He got off light... It's this kind of reasoning that really gets me. This self perpetuating 'but they were worse..' kind of mentality. + Show Spoiler +If you subscribe to that kind of thought, then why not throw all human rights out the window? It's thinking like that which responsible for all kinds of nasty shit: the patriot act and torture and humiliation in the prison system. Also responsible for 'democratic governments' slaughtering the villages of so called 'rebel tribes' in Africa. Was it right that he pulled a gun on someone? No. Most definitely not. Is it right to then put someone through something like that, with no intent on rehabilitation? No. Most definitely not. To quote my mum: "Two wrongs don't make a right." In any case, it was still an amazing story; and he should totally publish a book! I think a big part of why we disagree (because, come on - I never said anything about throwing away all human rights) is that I believe if a punishment is hard enough, the crime won't be done whilst you (apperantly) believe in rehabilitating people, trying to prevent the crime from happening AGAIN. Whilst rehabilitation is on paper a good thing, it has a couple of downside, one being it's low succesrate (wheter it be the system as it seems you believe or due to the nature of people turning criminals in the first place is another discussion) another being that it doesn't stop the first crime. That was my reason for saying he got off too lightly. Wheter or not the US prison system is fine is somewhat out of my league to comment on - though one has to remember that most of what he described was done by OTHER inmates which can be pretty hard for the prisonguards to stop. And anyone who would buy a book from such a guy should honestly be ashamed of themselves. If he got rich off writing such a book, he basicly got rewarded for his crime...
Oh please.
Your high and mighty bull is fringing on the line between hilarious and irritating.
If he got rich off of writing such a book he got rewarded because he writes well. The fact that he committed a crime to gain such an experience is pretty much immaterial. Plenty of people experience absolutely traumatizing things but can't put them into words half well enough to be published.
If he can do so he should go for it. Whether you believe in rehabilitation or not is irrelevant because that's really what the US justice system is based off of. If it weren't people would be sent to prison for life for EVERY murder.
If he attempts to make something of himself after committing such a crime it's a GOOD THING. Being condemned for life for a single action done in the heat of the moment is laughable. Yes armed robbery is a horrible thing but I do believe he paid for it in spades.
You claim to work in an open psyche ward and yet you think him getting his mind all but raped is getting off light? On top of this you think I should be ASHAMED of myself for buying a book written by this guy if it was written by him.
Who do you think you are anyway? The entire tone of your post is grating.
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I think I am me, presenting my opinion on an internet forum. I posted my honest opinion which apperantly differed from yours, which should be fine and we should be able to discuss it maturely. Apperantly that isn't the case...
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On July 18 2010 10:33 Ghostcom wrote:
I think I am me, presenting my opinion on an internet forum. I posted my honest opinion which apperantly differed from yours, which should be fine and we should be able to discuss it maturely. Apperantly that isn't the case...
It was, until you said this
And anyone who would buy a book from such a guy should honestly be ashamed of themselves.
Changed pretty much the ENTIRE tone of your post. Stating an opinion is fine, but telling someone what they should think because their opinion differs from you is not cool.
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The amount of sympathy this guy is getting is making me sick. He performed an armed robbery.
That's like, with a gun and stuff, where you try and take shit that you didn't earn from innocent people that aren't prepared for it and don't expect it. He did 2 years in prison, which is a rather short term. While there, he was fed, housed, and generally left do do whatever he wanted, unless someone in the prison did something stupid and the place got locked down.
At what point does rehabilitation end? What line must be drawn? There are people out there that do bad things, and deserved to be segregated from the rest of society. There are people who cannot function in the world without causing pain and hurt to others. I understand that this person's experiences were horrible, but it is literally impossible to make determinations on a case by case basis. It should give people more incentive to stay out of prison.
I returned from Iraq last year, and my father decided to take me to Las Vegas as a celebration/relaxation trip, since I had always wanted to go there. He was a police officer for 30 years, and recently retired from the Sheriff department that he had worked at all that time. Our first night, he got a bit drunk, and we started trading stories, me from the war, and him from his time in blue. One of the stories he told me seems to be a fitting example of why our prison system is necessary.
In the 1980's, there was a Latin American biker gang that operated out of the southern California area, through to Arizona. Being a cop in the Midwest at the time, this normally would not have anything to do with him, however, the gang ran cocaine from Mexico all the way through the pipeline in to Chicago and eventually through Detroit to Canada. This made it an international issue, and a joint task force was built to determine the source of the dope. The task force worked for months, eventually discovering the gang (The Bandito's, I believe, were their names) and began to pick up on some deeper criminal threads that ran underneath their drug running business. They discovered a string of missing women, usually 16-18 years of age, that all were seemingly abducted from Bandito territory in SC through Arizona. Eventually, they determined that the Banditos were taking these girls. Having planted some undercovers in the gang, they finally got to the point where one was to be initiated as a member, and given his jacket and brand.
They had the initiation ceremony in the desert, somewhere in southern Arizona. The member to be initiated would be tasked to abduct a girl, preferably underage, but old enough to be considered a women. The girl would be brought to the site, and the senior most bandito would rape her, followed by every single member of the gang. They would then kill the girl, and burn her. The new member was expected to eat a piece of the girl, and upon doing that would receive his brand. You see, you must be a murderer to be a Bandito.
My question to all those sympathizers is, what do you do with people like this? Do you try to rehabilitate them? How do you make them functioning members of society? Furthering that, where do you draw the line? Where is it that you stop punishing, and start rehabilitating?
Maybe I am hardened, I don't know. I just don't understand how someone can royally fuck up their life and get anything from anyone else but 'yup, you're fucked'. This whole 'rage against the man' thing is dumb. The dude went to jail. Let him get his emotional catharsis from writing this blog, or whatever, just don't shower him with sympathy, or offer to help him find a job, are you fucking serious?
There are plenty of people who aren't fucking morons, and who didn't attempt to rob someone who work hard every day for shit, and don't get a whole forum full of anon's sucking their collective dicks because they cant afford a computer.
Tl;dr
Life sucks, its unfair, learn to play the game, because if you don't, you fucking lose. GG
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Best thread I've read on tl, ever. Thank you, it was an amazing read. Could you link the forum this came from so I can check for updates from OP, please?
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On July 18 2010 10:36 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2010 10:33 Ghostcom wrote:
I think I am me, presenting my opinion on an internet forum. I posted my honest opinion which apperantly differed from yours, which should be fine and we should be able to discuss it maturely. Apperantly that isn't the case... It was, until you said this And anyone who would buy a book from such a guy should honestly be ashamed of themselves.Changed pretty much the ENTIRE tone of your post. Stating an opinion is fine, but telling someone what they should think because their opinion differs from you is not cool.
No it still was, though if you wanted to be offended by it I can see why you could be. Let me rephrase it:
And anyone who would buy a book from such a guy should honestly be ashamed of themselves (imho).
Seriously, it should be pretty damn clear that it was merely my opinion and not me trying to impose what others should think (though in the end, aren't all opinions when laid out for discussion actually an attempt at that?).
And perhaps you should read your own posts when you speak about tone as yours aren't exactly too good either - backseat moderating = not cool.
EDIT: Thumbs up @ nearlydead, and GJ in Iraq.
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On July 18 2010 10:39 NearlyDead wrote:+ Show Spoiler +In the 1980's, there was a Latin American biker gang that operated out of the southern California area, through to Arizona. Being a cop in the Midwest at the time, this normally would not have anything to do with him, however, the gang ran cocaine from Mexico all the way through the pipeline in to Chicago and eventually through Detroit to Canada. This made it an international issue, and a joint task force was built to determine the source of the dope. The task force worked for months, eventually discovering the gang (The Bandito's, I believe, were their names) and began to pick up on some deeper criminal threads that ran underneath their drug running business. They discovered a string of missing women, usually 16-18 years of age, that all were seemingly abducted from Bandito territory in SC through Arizona. Eventually, they determined that the Banditos were taking these girls. Having planted some undercovers in the gang, they finally got to the point where one was to be initiated as a member, and given his jacket and brand.
They had the initiation ceremony in the desert, somewhere in southern Arizona. The member to be initiated would be tasked to abduct a girl, preferably underage, but old enough to be considered a women. The girl would be brought to the site, and the senior most bandito would rape her, followed by every single member of the gang. They would then kill the girl, and burn her. The new member was expected to eat a piece of the girl, and upon doing that would receive his brand. You see, you must be a murderer to be a Bandito.
Holy crap that story had me frozen at some of the things humans will do for absolutely no reason. I agree that this guy should have been in jail, probably for longer but that doesn't negate the fact that this story had some very good life lessons and is still indeed a VERY interesting read. Mega props to him and I hope he reads more and finds a way to correct his life.
Also wtf at 22 months for an armed robbery?
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Wow, huge wall of text, but very worth reading.
(Also, you may want to remove the ad for THE OTHER BOLYN GIRL).
Thanks for posting this, I wouldn't have seen it otherwise, as I don't frequent THOSE boards of the chans.
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Well since we're in the mood for 'opinions', then if someone is beyond rehabilitation.. why make them suffer like this? Imo the death penalty (lethal injection etc) is better than being beaten and stabbed to death with a sharpened tooth brush; or being subjected to what almost amounts to torture for the rest of your life.
+ Show Spoiler +To clarify:
I am talking about the prison system in general. Not just this guys story.
The dude served 2 years, and went through all that shit. Just because it is a 'relatively' short stay (and who's to say the 'average' sentence is what the 'average' prisoner deserves?) doesn't mean he doesn't deserve to get out. Along with the obvious reflection and wanting to become a better person after it; I feel he is fit to re-enter society.
The example of the rape and murder of all those girls comes no where close to what this guy did. I presume they are probably beyond rehabilitation. It wouldn't surprise me if they got the death penalty.
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On July 18 2010 10:36 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2010 10:33 Ghostcom wrote:
I think I am me, presenting my opinion on an internet forum. I posted my honest opinion which apperantly differed from yours, which should be fine and we should be able to discuss it maturely. Apperantly that isn't the case... It was, until you said this And anyone who would buy a book from such a guy should honestly be ashamed of themselves.Changed pretty much the ENTIRE tone of your post. Stating an opinion is fine, but telling someone what they should think because their opinion differs from you is not cool.
I would buy a book by this guy, he writes with a voice, I buy books because they are interesting to read, and a book by him would be interesting.
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On July 18 2010 10:00 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2010 09:09 Tyraz wrote:On July 18 2010 08:55 Ghostcom wrote:On July 18 2010 08:48 Batch wrote:On July 18 2010 08:20 Ghostcom wrote:
Just a question, he commited armed robbery, probably mentally traumatized those he robbed, why should I feel any pity for him? imho he even got off too lightly... I'm fine with these sort of people ending in dead-end jobs - they aren't worth any better. This is how traumatized you will be after having a gun aimed at you: |>----<| This is how traumatized you will be after being "forced" into drugs, getting raped, getting beaten, getting shielded from the outside world, seen interns cut each other open and ripping the guts out. |>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<| Yeah, he got off too lightly... I happen to work on an open psychiatric ward and have actually met people for whom being robbed with a gun has happend. They have trouble leaving their homes, they can't keep up their job and they have to take medications just to get some sleep which is still a terrible sleep. And the worst part about it is that they couldn't in any way have avoided the situation. If you think he got off lightly you should visit a psychiatric hospital sometime... He got off light... It's this kind of reasoning that really gets me. This self perpetuating 'but they were worse..' kind of mentality. + Show Spoiler +If you subscribe to that kind of thought, then why not throw all human rights out the window? It's thinking like that which responsible for all kinds of nasty shit: the patriot act and torture and humiliation in the prison system. Also responsible for 'democratic governments' slaughtering the villages of so called 'rebel tribes' in Africa. Was it right that he pulled a gun on someone? No. Most definitely not. Is it right to then put someone through something like that, with no intent on rehabilitation? No. Most definitely not. To quote my mum: "Two wrongs don't make a right." In any case, it was still an amazing story; and he should totally publish a book! I think a big part of why we disagree (because, come on - I never said anything about throwing away all human rights) is that I believe if a punishment is hard enough, the crime won't be done whilst you (apperantly) believe in rehabilitating people, trying to prevent the crime from happening AGAIN. Whilst rehabilitation is on paper a good thing, it has a couple of downside, one being it's low succesrate (wheter it be the system as it seems you believe or due to the nature of people turning criminals in the first place is another discussion) another being that it doesn't stop the first crime. That was my reason for saying he got off too lightly. Wheter or not the US prison system is fine is somewhat out of my league to comment on - though one has to remember that most of what he described was done by OTHER inmates which can be pretty hard for the prisonguards to stop. And anyone who would buy a book from such a guy should honestly be ashamed of themselves. If he got rich off writing such a book, he basicly got rewarded for his crime...
Gonna pretty much disagree with everything you say.
Prison systems do not have a good success rate, and rehabilitation has been accomplished to great effect, several times, not just "on paper". Reincarnation is ridiculously high with the current prison system, I suggest you read some topics on the issue, because this is fact, not opinion.
Hard for the prison-guards to stop? More like they are fucking lazy slobs and completely corrupt. Just think about the person you'd have to be and your path in life to become a prison guard. The others are pretty much too scared to do anything.
He's not "rewarded" for his crime if people read a theoretical book he published, he's rewarded for his ability to deal with intense emotional situations and for his writing capability.
As for "And anyone who would buy a book from such a guy should honestly be ashamed of themselves. " It's a comment, not even a real opinion as you didnt list any reasons why.
It would be like me going into a female activist thread and shiting all over it with a comment like, "Women's rights are a joke." , you don't even state your real opinion- just a hateful snide comment.
If you honestly want some information on the current prison system in the US, PM me.
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One day he comes back for lock down, takes a hit and after a few minutes says - this isn't H, try it. And it turned out to be powdered MDMA, or Ecstacy. We both did it and ended up giving each other blow jobs. Afterward, things were pretty awkward until I said, you know fuck it, we're in prison, let's make a deal that if we can score for ecstacy again we'll get each other off.
We were good friends after that. He got out before me, and I definetly don' think I'll look him up.
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK
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I returned from Iraq last year, and my father decided to take me to Las Vegas as a celebration/relaxation trip, since I had always wanted to go there. He was a police officer for 30 years, and recently retired from the Sheriff department that he had worked at all that time. Our first night, he got a bit drunk, and we started trading stories, me from the war, and him from his time in blue. One of the stories he told me seems to be a fitting example of why our prison system is necessary.
In the 1980's, there was a Latin American biker gang that operated out of the southern California area, through to Arizona. Being a cop in the Midwest at the time, this normally would not have anything to do with him, however, the gang ran cocaine from Mexico all the way through the pipeline in to Chicago and eventually through Detroit to Canada. This made it an international issue, and a joint task force was built to determine the source of the dope. The task force worked for months, eventually discovering the gang (The Bandito's, I believe, were their names) and began to pick up on some deeper criminal threads that ran underneath their drug running business. They discovered a string of missing women, usually 16-18 years of age, that all were seemingly abducted from Bandito territory in SC through Arizona. Eventually, they determined that the Banditos were taking these girls. Having planted some undercovers in the gang, they finally got to the point where one was to be initiated as a member, and given his jacket and brand.
They had the initiation ceremony in the desert, somewhere in southern Arizona. The member to be initiated would be tasked to abduct a girl, preferably underage, but old enough to be considered a women. The girl would be brought to the site, and the senior most bandito would rape her, followed by every single member of the gang. They would then kill the girl, and burn her. The new member was expected to eat a piece of the girl, and upon doing that would receive his brand. You see, you must be a murderer to be a Bandito.
My question to all those sympathizers is, what do you do with people like this? Do you try to rehabilitate them? How do you make them functioning members of society? Furthering that, where do you draw the line? Where is it that you stop punishing, and start rehabilitating?
First of all I think what you describe is horrible but these gang members wouldn't have done what they did if they wheren't affected by environment. I bet that none of them would do what they did if they where alone and in a different environment.
Since you were a in Iraq then you probably heard of or seen fellow american soldiers doing thing they never would have done at home. The environment we live in shapes us.
How should the gang members get rehabilitated? By moving them from their environment and letting them get a chance to make themselves a better life. Give them prison time as a punishment but avoid cutting their chances to come back into the society.
Maybe I am hardened, I don't know. I just don't understand how someone can royally fuck up their life and get anything from anyone else but 'yup, you're fucked'. This whole 'rage against the man' thing is dumb. The dude went to jail. Let him get his emotional catharsis from writing this blog, or whatever, just don't shower him with sympathy, or offer to help him find a job, are you fucking serious?
There are plenty of people who aren't fucking morons, and who didn't attempt to rob someone who work hard every day for shit, and don't get a whole forum full of anon's sucking their collective dicks because they cant afford a computer.
Tl;dr
Life sucks, its unfair, learn to play the game, because if you don't, you fucking lose. GGLast edit: 2010-07-18 10:40:11
Lets say a your son had some kind of problems and decides to steal a car which he crashes. He gets busted and put in jail for a couple of months and during that period he gets raped and beated half to death a couple of times. Would your opinion still be 'yup, you're fucked' since it was his own fault he was put in jail?
Where is the humanity?
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Thanks alot for posting this. Really incredible
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What a wild read. Note to self: don't get arrested.
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On July 18 2010 11:15 HeavOnEarth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2010 10:00 Ghostcom wrote:On July 18 2010 09:09 Tyraz wrote:On July 18 2010 08:55 Ghostcom wrote:On July 18 2010 08:48 Batch wrote:On July 18 2010 08:20 Ghostcom wrote:
Just a question, he commited armed robbery, probably mentally traumatized those he robbed, why should I feel any pity for him? imho he even got off too lightly... I'm fine with these sort of people ending in dead-end jobs - they aren't worth any better. This is how traumatized you will be after having a gun aimed at you: |>----<| This is how traumatized you will be after being "forced" into drugs, getting raped, getting beaten, getting shielded from the outside world, seen interns cut each other open and ripping the guts out. |>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<| Yeah, he got off too lightly... I happen to work on an open psychiatric ward and have actually met people for whom being robbed with a gun has happend. They have trouble leaving their homes, they can't keep up their job and they have to take medications just to get some sleep which is still a terrible sleep. And the worst part about it is that they couldn't in any way have avoided the situation. If you think he got off lightly you should visit a psychiatric hospital sometime... He got off light... It's this kind of reasoning that really gets me. This self perpetuating 'but they were worse..' kind of mentality. + Show Spoiler +If you subscribe to that kind of thought, then why not throw all human rights out the window? It's thinking like that which responsible for all kinds of nasty shit: the patriot act and torture and humiliation in the prison system. Also responsible for 'democratic governments' slaughtering the villages of so called 'rebel tribes' in Africa. Was it right that he pulled a gun on someone? No. Most definitely not. Is it right to then put someone through something like that, with no intent on rehabilitation? No. Most definitely not. To quote my mum: "Two wrongs don't make a right." In any case, it was still an amazing story; and he should totally publish a book! I think a big part of why we disagree (because, come on - I never said anything about throwing away all human rights) is that I believe if a punishment is hard enough, the crime won't be done whilst you (apperantly) believe in rehabilitating people, trying to prevent the crime from happening AGAIN. Whilst rehabilitation is on paper a good thing, it has a couple of downside, one being it's low succesrate (wheter it be the system as it seems you believe or due to the nature of people turning criminals in the first place is another discussion) another being that it doesn't stop the first crime. That was my reason for saying he got off too lightly. Wheter or not the US prison system is fine is somewhat out of my league to comment on - though one has to remember that most of what he described was done by OTHER inmates which can be pretty hard for the prisonguards to stop. And anyone who would buy a book from such a guy should honestly be ashamed of themselves. If he got rich off writing such a book, he basicly got rewarded for his crime... Gonna pretty much disagree with everything you say. Prison systems do not have a good success rate, and rehabilitation has been accomplished to great effect, several times, not just "on paper". Reincarnation is ridiculously high with the current prison system, I suggest you read some topics on the issue, because this is fact, not opinion. Hard for the prison-guards to stop? More like they are fucking lazy slobs and completely corrupt. Just think about the person you'd have to be and your path in life to become a prison guard. The others are pretty much too scared to do anything. He's not "rewarded" for his crime if people read a theoretical book he published, he's rewarded for his ability to deal with intense emotional situations and for his writing capability. As for "And anyone who would buy a book from such a guy should honestly be ashamed of themselves. " It's a comment, not even a real opinion as you didnt list any reasons why. It would be like me going into a female activist thread and shiting all over it with a comment like, "Women's rights are a joke." , you don't even state your real opinion- just a hateful snide comment. If you honestly want some information on the current prison system in the US, PM me.
My reason for that comment followed STRAIGHT after - it was the he got rewarded for his crime. You disagreeing with that is fine, but your parallel sucks as it isn't a parallel in any way imagineable. Sure he needs to have the basic skills to write about his experience, but he wouldn't have been able to write the book had he not commited the crime in the first place.
One of my friends is a prison guard in Denmark. She has told me that depending on the ratio of the racial (this is going to sound racistic, but I'm honestly just repeating what she said) convicts they have to lock them up in their cells, because whenever they get out they'll start fighting all over the place. The problem is that a lockdown going on 100% of the time isn't possible either. Perhaps this is because I'm living in another country, but blaming everything on the lazyness/corruptedness of prison guards seems wrong, especially when on his top ten list @7 of the points are due to other inmates, 1 of them are due to security and 2 of them are due human nature.
Also, did ANYONE actually take note that this isn't the average prison? He was in a level 5 prison, the one with the highest security and most FUBAR people walking the planet...
Regarding the rehabilitation succes rate:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recidivism
http://www.allsands.com/history/events/parolecriminal_xsa_gn.htm
So apperantly more than 50% are getting re-arrested during their parole is a great sign of succes? And up to 70% depending on crime commited within 3 years of their release... Sorry, but that's not very succesful in my eyes, especially not when robbery is one of the things that tops the list...
It would be wonderful if rehabilitation worked better (which it probably could if the system got improved, but some might very well be due to the nature of the criminals as well), but it doesn't.
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Wow, I finally finished reading...I take forever reading things nowadays because I seem to read everything 5+ times over for some reason.
Great read, another gem of a story providing insight for everyone here.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
On July 18 2010 10:39 NearlyDead wrote:
My question to all those sympathizers is, what do you do with people like this? Do you try to rehabilitate them? How do you make them functioning members of society? Furthering that, where do you draw the line? Where is it that you stop punishing, and start rehabilitating?
You don't rehabilitate these types of people.
You need to execute the murderers.
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sum up..
i guess jail isn't really what it is in the movies... not that much gay rape but they enjoy it sometimes. A lot of solitary cells which they don't have anything. No workout equipments like the ones u see in the movies where they get buff and shit. Horrific Events like stabbing someone and ripping their meat out.. is just awful. You really under appreciate the things you do in a real human society 
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EPT
