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On July 14 2010 06:33 ]343[ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 06:29 Klockan3 wrote:On July 14 2010 05:13 ]343[ wrote:
I got up to 5*2^(5*2^55-1) heh? that's still way smaller than 2001^2001^2001 though D:
Sort of a spoiler since it shows in which way you are doing it wrong but + Show Spoiler +I got up to 2^2^2......^2, (225 2's), which is a bit more than enough ah I was suspecting something like this was possible... but I still don't see how to get that  *keeps trying*
I just realized a flaw in my reasoning, this will do
+ Show Spoiler +I got up to 2^2^2......^2, (2^2^14 2's), which is a bit more than a bit more than enough
edit, or yet higher than that you can get like:
+ Show Spoiler +I got up to 2^2^2......^2, (2^2^2^2... 2's where the second set of 2's is 2^14), which is a bit more than a bit more than a bit more than enough
Edit edit: I wonder if it is possible to imagine in some way how impossibly huge that number is?
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It's really interesting looking back on problems like #3 with a bit of algebraic number theory (p-adic valuations) learned in college.
There was some problem on the USAMO about powers of 7 that was trivialized by similar ideas too.
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Whoa, Iceland is 2m 4f. Nice
Edit: Also, holy shit this thread. I don't even understand your answers to these problems let alone the problems themselves. How far above the typical highschool curriculum are you guys going? Who even teaches you this?
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I am not sure if it is still true for IMO, but previously the problem has been that each person has a certain amount of time to come up with an answer. Since at least chinese has each sign represent a word it is much faster for them to write the answer. In a 4 hour test that could mean quite a lot of extra time, not having to write it out in a western language.
Therefore it is not only because China has the best mathematical student, but also because they can write the answers in chinese.
Now you mention that a lot of teams have participants with asian names. Might be people with the ability to write in an asian language. I am not clear about recent rules but that was the case in 2002 when i participated in a preliminary for fun.
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Gogo Russia! damn number 2 this year, Russians are good are math = )
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On July 14 2010 06:23 blankspace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 04:28 Klockan3 wrote:
I love the fact that Korea all scored 0 on problem 5, shows that their instructor forgot to teach them the technique needed for that problem... The problem isn't even that hard.
Edit: I solved problem 1,5 and 6, don't want to bother with the geometry ones and I don't get anywhere on problem 3. Having taken a ton of maths courses really helps, the first problem is trivial then.
I guess what these countries do is to teach their participants a lot of number theory and geometry so that they can solve these questions, since that is all this.
Anyone know how to solve number 3? Probably something simple I just don't see right now. http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=644&t=356076Idea is to use perfect square condition to mess with p-adic valuations and then find g(n+1) = g(n)+1.
Thanks, now I got it. I haven't taken any number theory so I am not really used to stuff like that, but just having taken a lot of maths still helps a lot since you got experience in proving things. They don't really test that hard things on these competitions from a grad school perspective.
When I was in that age I hadn't even heard about most of the words used in there so I think that it is has mostly to do with people who studies a ton practicing the narrow subjects which comes on these. Kinda like the guy who practiced 2 years for the spelling contest as shown in the youtube clip.
On July 14 2010 07:05 n.DieJokes wrote:
Whoa, Iceland is 2m 4f. Nice
Edit: Also, holy shit this thread. I don't even understand your answers to these problems let alone the problems themselves. How far above the typical highschool curriculum are you guys going? Who even teaches you this?
The deal is that you can't test in the curriculum since then everybody will know what to do, so they take problems which are possible to solve using mostly logic and high school maths but which would normally be considered too advanced for high school students. The problem with that is that there isn't an infinite amount of different kinds of things you can test on which relates to what you know in high school, so the contestants just sits and trains on everything which can appear on the test.
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On July 14 2010 07:19 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 06:23 blankspace wrote:On July 14 2010 04:28 Klockan3 wrote:
I love the fact that Korea all scored 0 on problem 5, shows that their instructor forgot to teach them the technique needed for that problem... The problem isn't even that hard.
Edit: I solved problem 1,5 and 6, don't want to bother with the geometry ones and I don't get anywhere on problem 3. Having taken a ton of maths courses really helps, the first problem is trivial then.
I guess what these countries do is to teach their participants a lot of number theory and geometry so that they can solve these questions, since that is all this.
Anyone know how to solve number 3? Probably something simple I just don't see right now. http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=644&t=356076Idea is to use perfect square condition to mess with p-adic valuations and then find g(n+1) = g(n)+1. Thanks, now I got it. I haven't taken any number theory so I am not really used to stuff like that, but just having taken a lot of maths still helps a lot since you got experience in proving things. They don't really test that hard things on these competitions from a grad school perspective. When I was in that age I hadn't even heard about most of the words used in there so I think that it is has mostly to do with people who studies a ton practicing the narrow subjects which comes on these. Kinda like the guy who practiced 2 years for the spelling contest as shown in the youtube clip. Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 07:05 n.DieJokes wrote:
Whoa, Iceland is 2m 4f. Nice
Edit: Also, holy shit this thread. I don't even understand your answers to these problems let alone the problems themselves. How far above the typical highschool curriculum are you guys going? Who even teaches you this? The deal is that you can't test in the curriculum since then everybody will know what to do, so they take problems which are possible to solve using mostly logic and high school maths but which would normally be considered too advanced for high school students. The problem with that is that there isn't an infinite amount of different kinds of things you can test on which relates to what you know in high school, so the contestants just sits and trains on everything which can appear on the test.
I think even people in grad school need to have a lot of talent to find these problems straightforward. IMO coordinators try hard to come up with problems that are not well-studied by the contestants, and there is a vast amount of material that can be built out of basic math.
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I don't say that it is easy, just that none would be able to get a good score in this test without reading a huge amount on the sides of the normal curriculum. Maybe getting 1-2 questions right but not all of them. Question 5 for example is nice, it have no strange things at all, very straight forward and all that you just have to solve it, could be solved by a grade schooler, while in for example question 2 you need to know a ton of random shit and if you do it is easy otherwise you can't possibly do it.
Also the way they denote the domain and range of the functions is not shown in most high schools, neither have they explained what that set notation means.
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Baa?21245 Posts
On July 14 2010 07:06 radiatoren wrote:
I am not sure if it is still true for IMO, but previously the problem has been that each person has a certain amount of time to come up with an answer. Since at least chinese has each sign represent a word it is much faster for them to write the answer. In a 4 hour test that could mean quite a lot of extra time, not having to write it out in a western language.
Therefore it is not only because China has the best mathematical student, but also because they can write the answers in chinese.
Now you mention that a lot of teams have participants with asian names. Might be people with the ability to write in an asian language. I am not clear about recent rules but that was the case in 2002 when i participated in a preliminary for fun.
What in the world are you talking about...?
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On July 14 2010 07:36 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 07:06 radiatoren wrote:
I am not sure if it is still true for IMO, but previously the problem has been that each person has a certain amount of time to come up with an answer. Since at least chinese has each sign represent a word it is much faster for them to write the answer. In a 4 hour test that could mean quite a lot of extra time, not having to write it out in a western language.
Therefore it is not only because China has the best mathematical student, but also because they can write the answers in chinese.
Now you mention that a lot of teams have participants with asian names. Might be people with the ability to write in an asian language. I am not clear about recent rules but that was the case in 2002 when i participated in a preliminary for fun. What in the world are you talking about...?
He is saying i think that the Chinese are good at IMO because writing in Chinese characters makes them quicker to answer.
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@Klockan
Yeah there are things like random inequalities and highly contrived problems on these tests. To do well requires a lot of training. The geometry tested is a lot more than in normal us curriculum but maybe not so much compared to some european or asian countries that do more geometry. It's a lot harder to do well on an actual time pressured test as well, easy to run into dead-ends and get screwed for example.
Are in you grad school for math? Even for math majors these problems can be quite hard. Just look at the scores of the putnam which is mostly taken by math ppl. The scores are really low even though many of the problems would be considered easier than imo ones.
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United States10328 Posts
On July 14 2010 07:50 blankspace wrote:
@Klockan
Yeah there are things like random inequalities and highly contrived problems on these tests. To do well requires a lot of training. The geometry tested is a lot more than in normal us curriculum but maybe not so much compared to some european or asian countries that do more geometry. It's a lot harder to do well on an actual time pressured test as well, easy to run into dead-ends and get screwed for example.
Are in you grad school for math? Even for math majors these problems can be quite hard. Just look at the scores of the putnam which is mostly taken by math ppl. The scores are really low even though many of the problems would be considered easier than imo ones.
Yeah, math contest problems are often pretty contrived, though they are not rarely special cases of some much-higher-power theorem from higher mathematics. Olympiad geometry and inequalities tend to be memorizing a lot of oft-seen configurations/expressions though, which is kind of annoying (unfortunately those are my two favorite areas... and I can't do combo. Signs of a dead brain.)
Also Putnam is a bit different in that you're expected to do problems and write them up much faster. And know calculus/linalg  [crap I better learn some real math soon]
That's kind of related to what was said about "Asian characters take less time to write"... hmm... I don't think that has that much of a difference. Maybe it'll take 5, 10 minutes less to write Chinese max.
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I am so proud of Serbia, Hungary and Romania
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On July 14 2010 08:04 dubRa wrote:I am so proud of Serbia, Hungary and Romania
hahah same:D...Serbia googgo
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On July 14 2010 00:59 alffla wrote:
girl naer the middle with grey top is cute :3
She's not Asian though, typical Eastern European descent most likely with Finno-Ugric influence.
And that USA kid in the youtube vid seems autistic. He's home-schooled? Maybe that's why.
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Keep your eyes open for the First Inaugaural ISL (IMO Starleague)
Supposedly Team USA is set to face Team South Korea (US team has like 5 D-s and a D+! Beware!). Although, I haven't been in contact with the team since early July due to timezone differences, so I don't know if this is still going down.
PS: That video aforementioned should really stop going viral.
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On July 14 2010 07:49 jax1492 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 07:36 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On July 14 2010 07:06 radiatoren wrote:
I am not sure if it is still true for IMO, but previously the problem has been that each person has a certain amount of time to come up with an answer. Since at least chinese has each sign represent a word it is much faster for them to write the answer. In a 4 hour test that could mean quite a lot of extra time, not having to write it out in a western language.
Therefore it is not only because China has the best mathematical student, but also because they can write the answers in chinese.
Now you mention that a lot of teams have participants with asian names. Might be people with the ability to write in an asian language. I am not clear about recent rules but that was the case in 2002 when i participated in a preliminary for fun. What in the world are you talking about...? He is saying i think that the Chinese are good at IMO because writing in Chinese characters makes them quicker to answer.
Chinese characters might take up less space but there are many strokes involved with each character. I really doubt it's faster.
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Winning something like the IMO is mostly about the system of education and selection. Some countries value this sort of thing; others do not. Just like in SC, it's about how and what you train.
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Yay USA 3rd this year! (Though by one point...) US's team this year has no seniors so hopefully we can get first next year?
Hmm, there's a lot of people who have tl accounts and who go to the US training camp...
Also yeah, that video has been posted on like different sites 5 times now, people need to stop reposting it when its a few years old.
EDIT: @Azarkon: Yeah, if you have enough training you can solve #6 in 2 minutes, but a lot of problems still require some creativity (though those problems tend not to appear on the IMO as much as other olympiads like the Russian one.)
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EPT
