EPTThe Big Programming Thread - Page 1000
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Thread Rules 1. This is not a "do my homework for me" thread. If you have specific questions, ask, but don't post an assignment or homework problem and expect an exact solution. 2. No recruiting for your cockamamie projects (you won't replace facebook with 3 dudes you found on the internet and $20) 3. If you can't articulate why a language is bad, don't start slinging shit about it. Just remember that nothing is worse than making CSS IE6 compatible. 4. Use [code] tags to format code blocks. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17774 Posts
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Excludos
Norway8263 Posts
But generally we have flexitime, so we can come and go as we want. Aka if you work more one day then you can leave early the next. If the total hours of a month exceeds the hours on contract (and the customer has approved it) then you get paid around 150% of your normal salary. Earlier I worked at a company where the culture was just that you were expected to work overtime every day. Not only was I never paid for this, my bosses didn't even notice. I never worked less than 9 hours a day, sometimes up to 12-14, and I was told that I was one of those people who liked to come in late and leave early (Which is what prompted me to quit). Don't ever do unpaid overtime. No one cares, and you gain nothing from it other than a stressful life and no spare time. | ||
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emperorchampion
Canada9496 Posts
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tofucake
Hyrule19224 Posts
 Maybe I should actually work on the new op at me point.... | ||
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sabas123
Netherlands3122 Posts
On February 23 2019 23:19 tofucake wrote: My little baby thread is doing well Maybe I should actually work on the new op at me point.... I wonder if WC4/SC3 will come out before the new OP | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On February 23 2019 17:57 dsyxelic wrote: how okay are you guys with oncall/overtime and how many of you guys have it? its probably one of my least favorite parts of software work but seems difficult to avoid i've heard it is fairly normal to just have a week of on call every N weeks (N being # of team members) but thats from a small sample size of people i've asked from my internships i've seen a range of 0 on call at a non-profit to fairly often overtime/oncall (1 oncall rotation per month and a few days of staying up late to fix things) Like others who've responded, I'm a salaried employee with flexible working hours. Sometime I stay a little later, and sometimes I leave a little early. On the balance, I'd say it works out in my favour. I have had several instances where I've been asked to work "overtime" on an ongoing customer issue that was time-sensitive and business critical. As an office, we don't do overtime pay, but instead you'll get double time back. So, say you had to spend 4 hours supporting something over the weekend, you'd get 8 hours back to take the Monday off or tack on to vacation time. This works out pretty well, and sometimes the "overtime" work is voluntary, so people who want to spend time now for more later can do so. Related to the above, I'm technically always "on-call", in that I can be reached out to at reasonable hours if an escalation requires it. There's no expectation that you'll always be available though, and the above time accrual kicks in as soon as you pick up the phone. We have enough people with wide enough skill sets that we can reasonably expect that someone will eventually pick up and be available when required. There was a short period where I was actually on-call over the weekends and expected to be ready to go on short notice during the on-call hours. This isn't part of my normal job responsibilities, and the company wasn't willing to implement on-call pay (or equivalent compensation), so it was a point of contention between management and the developers they were asking to be on-call. We fought back and forth about it for a while, and eventually were able to prove that having us on-call didn't actually lead to better support outcomes. Most of the time we either weren't contacted and didn't need to intervene, or were contacted prematurely about known issues that the first couple levels of support should already know how to resolve. Once we demonstrated that having developers on-call didn't provide any additional value we were able to reduce and then eliminate the on-call time. This whole thing lasted a few months. EDIT: To summarise, I'm OK being compensated for "overtime" when required, I didn't sign up for uncompensated on-call time every second weekend during the summer. | ||
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dsyxelic
United States1417 Posts
its encouraging to hear that people typically will get some for of compensation though, I was led to believe oncall and overtime (without extra comp) is just part of most jobs | ||
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graNite
Germany4434 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
I am generally against frequent overtime work. A long day once a week is ok if you work less on another day. Several days in a row is a good way to ensure crappy results because of frustration and mental exhaustion. You're not doing any favors with with that. Not to yourself and not to your company. | ||
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graNite
Germany4434 Posts
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Blisse
Canada3710 Posts
On February 23 2019 04:30 JimmyJRaynor wrote: i went to a university that systematically operated that way, but in 4 month stints rather than 6 months. its called "co op". from September 2005 to April 2010 i moved 9 times... lived in 4 cities... worked at 3 companies... got a 4 year degree and 2 years full time work experience. Other than a single 8 month stretch i was never in school more than 16 weeks at a time. I think the 80s term for a job-hopping corporate-climber was "Yuppie" ... Young Urban Professional. This "co op" University program has been around since 1967.... and I think its been one of the bigger engineering schools in Canada since the 1970s... so 10s of thousands of students do this. So this job-hopping , corporate-climbing culture has been around many decades. :wave: waterwaterwater I have a conversation with my friends about this often, but I think this kind of program raises the _floor_ of the graduates, in that it makes it a lot harder for those who graduate to end up in a bad place for their career outright. Of course, gotta graduate, and that's a pain, and the 4 month stints is pretty hard on forming relationships. On February 23 2019 17:57 dsyxelic wrote: how okay are you guys with oncall/overtime and how many of you guys have it? its probably one of my least favorite parts of software work but seems difficult to avoid i've heard it is fairly normal to just have a week of on call every N weeks (N being # of team members) but thats from a small sample size of people i've asked from my internships i've seen a range of 0 on call at a non-profit to fairly often overtime/oncall (1 oncall rotation per month and a few days of staying up late to fix things) We do 1 week every N weeks at my company. There's multiple parts to it: being paged for urgent issues, and being responsible and available for issues that affect the team. However, there's a real need to be oncall to respond to our customer's issues, and we have a true oncall process that involves layers of customer support before it reaches our team, ongoing back and forths to improve the process, and an expectation that every other team in the company also has dedicated oncalls to help triage and problem solve. I think it's a necessary part of your job. For the less experienced it's an important part of slowly adding more responsibility and broadening your work. For the more experienced, who work on "more important projects", it helps ground you back into your customer's and coworker's realities when you're forced to work in the front lines, addressing maybe less glamorous issues. But the oncall process needs to be a real engineering process that is constantly improved upon. Staying up late should really be a last resort depending how time critical your work is, but it depends on the company culture. Should really avoid working at companies that doesn't prioritize your offwork time though. OTOH, our managers are essentially always oncall, and there's a generally accepted idea that some people are always oncall for critically urgent issues because of experience/seniority/worse case scenarios (e.g. a manager was woken at 3am the other day to help diagnose and fix a really really important problem). But generally the managers and company will only ping non-on-calls in off-hours only in the most dire circumstances. Our general SLA is, should respond ASAP during working hours, so check email/Slack often during those times. | ||
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LightTemplar
Ireland481 Posts
Working for large corp on-call was paid though it was over standard hours. It was also a regularly reviewed process. The team was also big enough that if a weekend didnt work it could be traded and there was a full team around 24hours the working week. WRT regular hours everybody just worked their shift and usually not much more. Current experiece in small company land has been interesting. SLAs are not as stringent and manager mostly knows extra hours put in. Compensated for extra time with a lot of flexibility but not pay. So its up to me to draw the line on working hours. I have to be relatively careful about not doing a lot more than required as there is always more to do. Its been quite similar to WfH issues where you have to be disciplined about work-life balance. Personally I find the flexibility is really nice though. I thought the debate on pay vs promotion track was pretty interesting earlier. Also neat page 1k, new OP when. | ||
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solidbebe
Netherlands4921 Posts
On February 24 2019 17:22 graNite wrote: Would you say it is also bad for your spines hea(l)th? What a German joke. | ||
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tofucake
Hyrule19224 Posts
On February 24 2019 16:53 dsyxelic wrote: thanks for the input, thats definitely something I want to work on in the future (be able to navigate situations with managers asking for things I believe should be compensated) its encouraging to hear that people typically will get some for of compensation though, I was led to believe oncall and overtime (without extra comp) is just part of most jobs It isn't always, you'll should ask about the policies in the interview and it should be a consideration if you get a job offer. I've worked jobs where I was always on call and ot wasn't paid extra, but the salary was really great so I took the job anyway | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On February 25 2019 01:41 tofucake wrote: It isn't always, you'll should ask about the policies in the interview and it should be a consideration if you get a job offer. I've worked jobs where I was always on call and ot wasn't paid extra, but the salary was really great so I took the job anyway I'll second this. I knew going in what the flextime and potential of getting called generally looked like. That's why the real on-call time was contentious, because it was something new that was sprung on us. One other thing that makes our situation a little better is that we're a huge company, so we've got first level support working out of offices across the world, and a good team presence in India, which means we don't need to worry about night-time calls. After about 8 pm it's normal business hours over there, and vice-versa. This becomes interesting sometimes when you're trying to juggle an issue so it's worked on around the clock. Good communication of what the current problem analysis/status is becomes key. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19367 Posts
On February 23 2019 23:19 tofucake wrote: My little baby thread is doing well Maybe I should actually work on the new op at me point.... Happy 1 thousand! Programming is the best career. | ||
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enigmaticcam
United States280 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17647 Posts
On February 23 2019 04:55 tofucake wrote: My university did coops too, and 6-12 months is fine if you're working contracts. But getting full time jobs (where promotions happen) and bailing every 6 months for greener pastures is a huge red flag to competent hiring managers and hr departments 6 months is a bit short. In a hot economy where IT departments are constantly in fear of being raided 12 months is acceptable. New York//NorthEastern USA is hot right now. If you are a full time employee (and not a part time contractor like me) its good to have the IT Manager have 100% absolute trust in you. If they leave for a better job they might want to take you with them. If they have a top notch reputation and get results they can demand a high degree of autonomy and can over ride HR in their next job. I think its best to build relationships and network with project managers, CIOs, IT managers, and Business Analysts. Those relationships can outlast any single employment stint. I've been working for/with one woman for 5+ years who just drags me from 1 place to the next. She goes into dysfunctional IT departments and spends a year fixing them. She then finds a replacement for herself. She then takes on another IT Department reclamation project. Rinse and Repeat. I call her "Hurricane Hazel". She is also an SC2 1v1 Gold Leaguer. I'll quote "Hurricane Hazel" the best IT Manager for whom I've ever worked :"Fuck HR" | ||
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SC-Shield
Bulgaria863 Posts
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
Not sure why he would expect to be able to find a better work/life balance as a software engineer. | ||
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