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Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 03:41 Myles wrote: What I'd like is someone with conservative economic theory but a liberal view on individual rights. In America it doesn't seem like that's possible right now. Like libertarians? I'm one of them. I like to say I'm a libertarian in that I believe individual liberty to be extremely important if not the most important thing, but I think that currently liberals have economics down better than conservatives. Sure it's good to have taxes as low as possible and it would be nice to be efficient with them, but the fact is it's not always possible in many cases. Right now, lowering the taxes can't work. Lowering the taxes of the poor and the middle class would be a good idea but it would then be very important to increase the taxes of the rich (which is what we need to do now).
Many libertarians would argue for flat taxes which is an absurd system which simply doesn't lead to an efficient economy. More reasonable libertarians would argue that we need to keep taxation levels closer together, but right now we just shouldn't do that!
All ideologies have people who have it mostly right and other people who would completely destroy the US by mistake if they got their hands on some power.
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United States5162 Posts
On July 06 2010 04:07 dogabutila wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 03:41 Myles wrote: What I'd like is someone with conservative economic theory but a liberal view on individual rights. In America it doesn't seem like that's possible right now. Like libertarians? I'm one of them.
Yea, but there's way too many kind of libertarians. You got nutso anarchist-libertarians and socialist-libertarians, then left and right and everything in between. Plus, I was talking more of in conventional politics. It seems like to get someone who wants small government they also have to pretty much be hardcore republican.
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So many republicans want a small government but are perfectly fine with having a massive military (socialized "security"). I'm pretty sure those who call themselves libertarians, at the very least, don't have that contradiction.
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On July 06 2010 04:19 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 04:07 dogabutila wrote:On July 06 2010 03:41 Myles wrote: What I'd like is someone with conservative economic theory but a liberal view on individual rights. In America it doesn't seem like that's possible right now. Like libertarians? I'm one of them. Yea, but there's way too many kind of libertarians. You got nutso anarchist-libertarians and socialist-libertarians, then left and right and everything in between. Plus, I was talking more of in conventional politics. It seems like to get someone who wants small government they also have to pretty much be hardcore republican.
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On July 06 2010 03:48 ixi.genocide wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 03:31 NEWater wrote: Conservatives tend to be Christians, and as a rule of thumb I don't trust Christians, or religious people (and in turn they're always conservative in some sense) to handle anything that's important to me. I make it a point to ask if my financial advisor is religious, for instance. So do I make it a point that if I go to a specialist doctor for surgery, more often than not, I try to go to one who isn't religious.
Why? Because I can't bring myself to let someone tell me that he believes in ridiculous things like how there's this invincible, invisible, all-powerful guy in the sky who loves him, and twisted the pagan ritual of blood sacrifice into some kind of a perversely good thing, then tell me that they can be lucid enough to manage my money. Why should I trust someone whose probable first step of action in crisis is to pray to a divine being that doesn't exist and is incapable of direct intervention? Should I let my financial advisor close his eyes, pray to God and choose a hedge fund at random because 'God told me so'? Should I have a peace of mind that my surgeon won't go "Oh God oh God help me" when he screws up instead of doing something productive?
To borrow a classification from Freud, conservatives to me are like children (since the massive lot of them tend to be religious in some way). Religious people are still in their child-like state who need some kind of supernatural validation of their selves and weakly, and meekly validate their "opinions" dished out by their pastors and constantly urged to quote the Bible like it's some kind of 'universal truth'. Why? Because God induced this heavy dependence on Christians and made it impossible for them to be weaned away from their weakness.
"You will never pray again, never adore again, never again rest in endless trust; you refuse to let yourself stop to unharness your thoughts before any ultimate wisdom, goodness or power; you have no perpetual guard and friend for your seven solitudes; you live without the view of a mountain-range with snow-capped peaks and fire in its heart; there is no avenger for you anymore, no final corrector of the text of your life; there is no more reason in what happens, no love in what will happen to you; no more resting place stands open for your heart in which to find and no longer seek.."
The Gay Science by Nietzsche, in the portion named Excelsior.
This much the Christian God has imposed himself upon his followers, and they're so dependent, they know nothing else. Like the sheep that Jesus favors, they remain stupid, want to remain stupid, and rejoice in being called stupid by their betters because Jesus liked his followers to be sheep. Would it be weird to say that I love you? This is a great post that shows why people dislike conservatives.
I hope you are joking.
I am a liberal and also non religious but all that post does is hate on religion. People have every right to believe in whatever they want. They also have every right to not believe in anything. This does not make anyone greater or less.
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+ Show Spoiler +On July 06 2010 04:23 Mothxal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 04:19 Myles wrote:On July 06 2010 04:07 dogabutila wrote:On July 06 2010 03:41 Myles wrote: What I'd like is someone with conservative economic theory but a liberal view on individual rights. In America it doesn't seem like that's possible right now. Like libertarians? I'm one of them. Yea, but there's way too many kind of libertarians. You got nutso anarchist-libertarians and socialist-libertarians, then left and right and everything in between. Plus, I was talking more of in conventional politics. It seems like to get someone who wants small government they also have to pretty much be hardcore republican. ![[image loading]](http://www.joeydevilla.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/the24typesoflibertarian1.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2axVG.png)
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How'd you change that so fast?
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On July 06 2010 04:24 Avid221 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 03:48 ixi.genocide wrote:On July 06 2010 03:31 NEWater wrote: Conservatives tend to be Christians, and as a rule of thumb I don't trust Christians, or religious people (and in turn they're always conservative in some sense) to handle anything that's important to me. I make it a point to ask if my financial advisor is religious, for instance. So do I make it a point that if I go to a specialist doctor for surgery, more often than not, I try to go to one who isn't religious.
Why? Because I can't bring myself to let someone tell me that he believes in ridiculous things like how there's this invincible, invisible, all-powerful guy in the sky who loves him, and twisted the pagan ritual of blood sacrifice into some kind of a perversely good thing, then tell me that they can be lucid enough to manage my money. Why should I trust someone whose probable first step of action in crisis is to pray to a divine being that doesn't exist and is incapable of direct intervention? Should I let my financial advisor close his eyes, pray to God and choose a hedge fund at random because 'God told me so'? Should I have a peace of mind that my surgeon won't go "Oh God oh God help me" when he screws up instead of doing something productive?
To borrow a classification from Freud, conservatives to me are like children (since the massive lot of them tend to be religious in some way). Religious people are still in their child-like state who need some kind of supernatural validation of their selves and weakly, and meekly validate their "opinions" dished out by their pastors and constantly urged to quote the Bible like it's some kind of 'universal truth'. Why? Because God induced this heavy dependence on Christians and made it impossible for them to be weaned away from their weakness.
"You will never pray again, never adore again, never again rest in endless trust; you refuse to let yourself stop to unharness your thoughts before any ultimate wisdom, goodness or power; you have no perpetual guard and friend for your seven solitudes; you live without the view of a mountain-range with snow-capped peaks and fire in its heart; there is no avenger for you anymore, no final corrector of the text of your life; there is no more reason in what happens, no love in what will happen to you; no more resting place stands open for your heart in which to find and no longer seek.."
The Gay Science by Nietzsche, in the portion named Excelsior.
This much the Christian God has imposed himself upon his followers, and they're so dependent, they know nothing else. Like the sheep that Jesus favors, they remain stupid, want to remain stupid, and rejoice in being called stupid by their betters because Jesus liked his followers to be sheep. Would it be weird to say that I love you? This is a great post that shows why people dislike conservatives. I hope you are joking. I am a liberal and also non religious but all that post does is hate on religion. People have every right to believe in whatever they want. They also have every right to not believe in anything. This does not make anyone greater or less. No in itself it doesn't make the person greater or less - I'm not religious but I really hate the behavior of many religious people when they do stupid stuff BASED on their religion such as print "in god we trust" on money despite the constitution and bomb abortion clinics and such. My gf believes in God (sort of) but she never thought about making a "day of prayer to stop the oil spill" and such.
The belief itself is fine... Weird but fine... But it can make people think less - it can make them manipulable. It has quite a few downsides. Naturally there are a lot of religious people who are perfectly fine but there are many who hinder science and are kind of a problem all around to modern society.
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On July 06 2010 04:19 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 04:07 dogabutila wrote:On July 06 2010 03:41 Myles wrote: What I'd like is someone with conservative economic theory but a liberal view on individual rights. In America it doesn't seem like that's possible right now. Like libertarians? I'm one of them. Yea, but there's way too many kind of libertarians. You got nutso anarchist-libertarians and socialist-libertarians, then left and right and everything in between. Plus, I was talking more of in conventional politics. It seems like to get someone who wants small government they also have to pretty much be hardcore republican.
Libertarian by (political) definition means (generally) that they support personal freedoms and economic freedoms. By contrast, liberals tend to support personal freedoms, and conservatives economic freedoms.
Saying there are too many kinds of libertarians is tantamount to saying there are too many kinds of liberals (Eco, fem rights, etc etc.) or too many kinds of conservatives (religious, etc etc) In each affiliation there are going to be different blocs that make up that affiliation and are a person's primary reason for being affiliated with that group.
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On July 06 2010 03:43 ixi.genocide wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 03:14 Sadistx wrote:Of course no rational human wants babies to die, however, social dynamics are very different than they used to be . Yeah, but so called conservatives have trouble understanding that "killing babies" is a lot different from "not letting them be born". I find that most conservative opinions stem from their fear of science and religious teachings which are often irrational and prohibit things that make no logical or economic sense. That's the person, not the political group, it's just sad that they are often the same thing now 
Obviously if I were seriously debating an issue, we would have to first agree on definitions. What is a conservative/liberal, etc. The problem in debating is that vague ideologies mean completely different things in the minds of different people. Or maybe they have no fucking clue what they mean, but want to argue anyway.
Which is why I tend not to involve myself in debates like these, because unless you can filter the idiots out (which you can't on the internet), the debate will always spiral down to the smallest common denominator.
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On July 06 2010 01:51 ixi.genocide wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 05 2010 19:51 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 19:19 ActualSteve wrote: (I saw the thread from 2008; new administration, different players on the web ... this topic should be brought up to date.)
Seems like every time I watch a YouTube video about politics, I read the comments. Almost every time I read the comments, I see the conservative standpoint in the minority. Almost every time said standpoint is stated, 10+ people with opposing viewpoints jump at the opportunity of ridiculing the right.
Possible questions for you:: Do you think the internet has a liberal bias? Why? What implications does this have for our future? (Unnecessary, but I'll include it: Are TL users generally liberal?)
1. Please don't go Aegrean and mind fuck us all.
2. Say something insightful.
I'm HOPING someone who is conservative makes a stand here and everyone is mature about it. I'm also hoping that this can pass as a thread and not necessarily a blog. Apologize in advance if I'm mistaken... it's been awhile.
Disclaimer: You're going to get about 2 paragraphs into this and think I'm a liberal just taking an opportunity to troll, but I assure you, I am not. Short Answer: The internet artificially selects for a liberally biased population. Long Answer: 1. We can safely assume that people who do not own computers are at the very least significantly less likely to be denizens of this hive of scum and villainy (HA HA, THE INTERNETS) than those people who do own computers. 2. Computers and the Internet are vaguely selective in that most of the reasons one would purchase one, appeal more strongly to those who are more intelligent. Video games are arguably "harder" to enjoy than, say TV is (let alone whatever it is your stereotypical rednecks are doing). 3. Thus, the Internet has already selected for a population that is skewed somewhat above the average as far as intelligence goes. Moreover, the majority of those people who are exceptions to this rule (most of the people who comment on Youtube, for instance) are likely to take the more common viewpoint among their peers, which on the internet is already being liberal. Now, this appears to be me claiming that intelligence correlates positively with "liberal-ness" - and this is true, that is my belief, but only up to a point. To explain this, lets reverse the issue: Liberal positions (using the modern understanding of the term) are, I think, generally characterized by a belief that the end result of conservative policies is unfair, or unjust. Marx rails against the exploitation of the proletariat, the Democrats seek openly to redistribute wealth, they seek to universalize healthcare coverage, and so forth. They are, in essence, trying to help other people. This is, really, quite easy to support, on the face of it. Who doesn't want to help people? Who, really, is going to admit that they're perfectly happy with people dying from a curable illness because they cant afford treatment*? I'm making an assumption here that with increasing intelligence comes increasing empathy, which is tenuous, to be sure - but certainly as intelligence increases the capacity we have for worrying about issues which are not of direct importance to our own well being increases. Now, lets look at the result of, say, arguments against universal health care. It is an unavoidable fact that if you oppose universalized health care you must accept that some people will die when they could, perhaps, have lived with a universal system. This immediately puts conservatives in a fairly sticky position as far as arguments go. It is quite difficult to reconcile this kind of end-result with a concern for society - which is essentially what politics is, an argument over how best to serve society. It takes a great deal of intellectual fortitude to take a long, hard, unbiased look at the arguments for both sides, and moreover it takes an intellect that has passed through the phase of believing every death is a tragedy that should be prevented at all costs. Such an intellect is, I would argue, more likely to side with conservatives than not, but that particular argument has nothing to do with answering your question. People capable of this kind of cold, logical, and prolonged thinking about very inflammatory issues are few and far between. tl;dr: Conservatives are over-represented at the extreme ends of intelligence distributions, while Liberals are over-represented in the middle areas. The internet artificially selects a distribution that is biased away from the lower end of that distribution, thus resulting in an artificially high Liberal-to-Conservative ratio. *Well, I am. Having written that, I could posit another 3 possibilities for the appearance or fact of a liberal bias on the internet, but I think this one is sufficiently likely to degenerate into flames. Disclaimer: Conservative I think that most people on the internet are liberal because they are young and ignorant. It is easy to believe in change and helping out our fellow man when the truth is being hidden by a million veils. While I would love to see free health care the cost of this will drive U.S into the ground. Now I realize that this is an international site and that there are many countries in Europe that have been able to implement some variant of health care and other liberal social programs but with >300 million people it isn't plausible to cover that many people, especially when there are 3x as many U.S citizens as there is in Russia (The largest population in Europe). You spoke of how their is a correlation between intelligence and your standpoint on government and that is true. At the bottom of the group you have republican rednecks that want to protect their guns and their property (or what have you) and feel that uncle sam is an evil conglomerate (they probably don't know what that means either) that is out to control them. Then you have the average person that looks at Democratic nominees and how they are trying to help the common man (they are smooth talkers, I'll give them that). After those two groups you get to people that aren't ignorant; By that I mean you get to people that can form an opinion that is more than "I heard nancy say she wanted to help my family so I voted for her". From here you have the leaders and true members of the "Tea party" movement and you have upper middle class that actually follow politics. After these groups you get to people that pay attention to the details. The people that pay attention to the details skew to the conservative favor because they know that at our current rate of spending we will owe china more than our country is worth in 20 years! (plus other hidden truths) Balancing the budget is being hidden behind the sick children that "Can't receive health care" (that's a lie). The reason why I keep bringing up health care in a "Is the internet liberal" thread is because that is the most widely debated American topic in the last year. + Show Spoiler +More of a sidenote than part of the actual argument, Getting free health care is not as much of a daunting task as the popular news stations would like you to think it is (especially for children and elders). There is no evil executive letting Aunt betty die of cancer that she could be cured of. Now that being said I think something could and should be done for health care and that isn't a government intrusion into the private sector and it certainly isn't mandatory health care.
What I propose is similar to a tax write off. An easy way to take care of your fellow man AND pay less money to the government (conservatives are having wet dreams about it). Every year about 60% of the American population have to pay some amount of taxes (40% don't have to pay or get money back) but what I propose is having the option to donate to a "Greater Society" charity group ran by independent companies and use the documentation of your charity donations to reduce your taxes by that amount.
Say you made 100,000 a year and paid 12,000 in taxes every april, With this plan you could donate 7,000 to charity and take 8,000 off your taxes (giving a big incentive to give to charity and cutting the governments spending money by upwards of 2/3rds. This is off topic so I am not going to go through all the details I have laid out for this but at 1/3rd of a budget (from april) and shutting down the government programs that aren't needed we can limit the size of government (tbh the only thing our government does right is find ways to botch the constitution) and put all of the charity money to the needy. Why is buying stuff from China bad for the US?
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On July 06 2010 04:42 Sadistx wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 03:43 ixi.genocide wrote:On July 06 2010 03:14 Sadistx wrote:Of course no rational human wants babies to die, however, social dynamics are very different than they used to be . Yeah, but so called conservatives have trouble understanding that "killing babies" is a lot different from "not letting them be born". I find that most conservative opinions stem from their fear of science and religious teachings which are often irrational and prohibit things that make no logical or economic sense. That's the person, not the political group, it's just sad that they are often the same thing now  Obviously if I were seriously debating an issue, we would have to first agree on definitions. What is a conservative/liberal, etc. The problem in debating is that vague ideologies mean completely different things in the minds of different people. Or maybe they have no fucking clue what they mean, but want to argue anyway. Which is why I tend not to involve myself in debates like these, because unless you can filter the idiots out (which you can't on the internet), the debate will always spiral down to the smallest common denominator. also because we are on the internet it is harder to fully comprehend where the other persons view points are. From my posts you probably think that I am in my 30-40's (maybe more) and that I'm a strict republican but I'm 20 and don't have any loyalties to government or religion. It's all about perception of reality and that perception is different for every person. Whether you gained your thought patterns from your parents or your teachers or the books you read, it's different from everyone else.
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On July 06 2010 04:52 rockon1215 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 01:51 ixi.genocide wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 05 2010 19:51 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 19:19 ActualSteve wrote: (I saw the thread from 2008; new administration, different players on the web ... this topic should be brought up to date.)
Seems like every time I watch a YouTube video about politics, I read the comments. Almost every time I read the comments, I see the conservative standpoint in the minority. Almost every time said standpoint is stated, 10+ people with opposing viewpoints jump at the opportunity of ridiculing the right.
Possible questions for you:: Do you think the internet has a liberal bias? Why? What implications does this have for our future? (Unnecessary, but I'll include it: Are TL users generally liberal?)
1. Please don't go Aegrean and mind fuck us all.
2. Say something insightful.
I'm HOPING someone who is conservative makes a stand here and everyone is mature about it. I'm also hoping that this can pass as a thread and not necessarily a blog. Apologize in advance if I'm mistaken... it's been awhile.
Disclaimer: You're going to get about 2 paragraphs into this and think I'm a liberal just taking an opportunity to troll, but I assure you, I am not. Short Answer: The internet artificially selects for a liberally biased population. Long Answer: 1. We can safely assume that people who do not own computers are at the very least significantly less likely to be denizens of this hive of scum and villainy (HA HA, THE INTERNETS) than those people who do own computers. 2. Computers and the Internet are vaguely selective in that most of the reasons one would purchase one, appeal more strongly to those who are more intelligent. Video games are arguably "harder" to enjoy than, say TV is (let alone whatever it is your stereotypical rednecks are doing). 3. Thus, the Internet has already selected for a population that is skewed somewhat above the average as far as intelligence goes. Moreover, the majority of those people who are exceptions to this rule (most of the people who comment on Youtube, for instance) are likely to take the more common viewpoint among their peers, which on the internet is already being liberal. Now, this appears to be me claiming that intelligence correlates positively with "liberal-ness" - and this is true, that is my belief, but only up to a point. To explain this, lets reverse the issue: Liberal positions (using the modern understanding of the term) are, I think, generally characterized by a belief that the end result of conservative policies is unfair, or unjust. Marx rails against the exploitation of the proletariat, the Democrats seek openly to redistribute wealth, they seek to universalize healthcare coverage, and so forth. They are, in essence, trying to help other people. This is, really, quite easy to support, on the face of it. Who doesn't want to help people? Who, really, is going to admit that they're perfectly happy with people dying from a curable illness because they cant afford treatment*? I'm making an assumption here that with increasing intelligence comes increasing empathy, which is tenuous, to be sure - but certainly as intelligence increases the capacity we have for worrying about issues which are not of direct importance to our own well being increases. Now, lets look at the result of, say, arguments against universal health care. It is an unavoidable fact that if you oppose universalized health care you must accept that some people will die when they could, perhaps, have lived with a universal system. This immediately puts conservatives in a fairly sticky position as far as arguments go. It is quite difficult to reconcile this kind of end-result with a concern for society - which is essentially what politics is, an argument over how best to serve society. It takes a great deal of intellectual fortitude to take a long, hard, unbiased look at the arguments for both sides, and moreover it takes an intellect that has passed through the phase of believing every death is a tragedy that should be prevented at all costs. Such an intellect is, I would argue, more likely to side with conservatives than not, but that particular argument has nothing to do with answering your question. People capable of this kind of cold, logical, and prolonged thinking about very inflammatory issues are few and far between. tl;dr: Conservatives are over-represented at the extreme ends of intelligence distributions, while Liberals are over-represented in the middle areas. The internet artificially selects a distribution that is biased away from the lower end of that distribution, thus resulting in an artificially high Liberal-to-Conservative ratio. *Well, I am. Having written that, I could posit another 3 possibilities for the appearance or fact of a liberal bias on the internet, but I think this one is sufficiently likely to degenerate into flames. Disclaimer: Conservative I think that most people on the internet are liberal because they are young and ignorant. It is easy to believe in change and helping out our fellow man when the truth is being hidden by a million veils. While I would love to see free health care the cost of this will drive U.S into the ground. Now I realize that this is an international site and that there are many countries in Europe that have been able to implement some variant of health care and other liberal social programs but with >300 million people it isn't plausible to cover that many people, especially when there are 3x as many U.S citizens as there is in Russia (The largest population in Europe). You spoke of how their is a correlation between intelligence and your standpoint on government and that is true. At the bottom of the group you have republican rednecks that want to protect their guns and their property (or what have you) and feel that uncle sam is an evil conglomerate (they probably don't know what that means either) that is out to control them. Then you have the average person that looks at Democratic nominees and how they are trying to help the common man (they are smooth talkers, I'll give them that). After those two groups you get to people that aren't ignorant; By that I mean you get to people that can form an opinion that is more than "I heard nancy say she wanted to help my family so I voted for her". From here you have the leaders and true members of the "Tea party" movement and you have upper middle class that actually follow politics. After these groups you get to people that pay attention to the details. The people that pay attention to the details skew to the conservative favor because they know that at our current rate of spending we will owe china more than our country is worth in 20 years! (plus other hidden truths) Balancing the budget is being hidden behind the sick children that "Can't receive health care" (that's a lie). The reason why I keep bringing up health care in a "Is the internet liberal" thread is because that is the most widely debated American topic in the last year. + Show Spoiler +More of a sidenote than part of the actual argument, Getting free health care is not as much of a daunting task as the popular news stations would like you to think it is (especially for children and elders). There is no evil executive letting Aunt betty die of cancer that she could be cured of. Now that being said I think something could and should be done for health care and that isn't a government intrusion into the private sector and it certainly isn't mandatory health care.
What I propose is similar to a tax write off. An easy way to take care of your fellow man AND pay less money to the government (conservatives are having wet dreams about it). Every year about 60% of the American population have to pay some amount of taxes (40% don't have to pay or get money back) but what I propose is having the option to donate to a "Greater Society" charity group ran by independent companies and use the documentation of your charity donations to reduce your taxes by that amount.
Say you made 100,000 a year and paid 12,000 in taxes every april, With this plan you could donate 7,000 to charity and take 8,000 off your taxes (giving a big incentive to give to charity and cutting the governments spending money by upwards of 2/3rds. This is off topic so I am not going to go through all the details I have laid out for this but at 1/3rd of a budget (from april) and shutting down the government programs that aren't needed we can limit the size of government (tbh the only thing our government does right is find ways to botch the constitution) and put all of the charity money to the needy. Why is buying stuff from China bad for the US?
I wasn't talking about market, I was talking about our national debt. Buy all the toys you want from china it's the money we owe and will owe in the future.
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On July 06 2010 04:52 rockon1215 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 01:51 ixi.genocide wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 05 2010 19:51 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 19:19 ActualSteve wrote: (I saw the thread from 2008; new administration, different players on the web ... this topic should be brought up to date.)
Seems like every time I watch a YouTube video about politics, I read the comments. Almost every time I read the comments, I see the conservative standpoint in the minority. Almost every time said standpoint is stated, 10+ people with opposing viewpoints jump at the opportunity of ridiculing the right.
Possible questions for you:: Do you think the internet has a liberal bias? Why? What implications does this have for our future? (Unnecessary, but I'll include it: Are TL users generally liberal?)
1. Please don't go Aegrean and mind fuck us all.
2. Say something insightful.
I'm HOPING someone who is conservative makes a stand here and everyone is mature about it. I'm also hoping that this can pass as a thread and not necessarily a blog. Apologize in advance if I'm mistaken... it's been awhile.
Disclaimer: You're going to get about 2 paragraphs into this and think I'm a liberal just taking an opportunity to troll, but I assure you, I am not. Short Answer: The internet artificially selects for a liberally biased population. Long Answer: 1. We can safely assume that people who do not own computers are at the very least significantly less likely to be denizens of this hive of scum and villainy (HA HA, THE INTERNETS) than those people who do own computers. 2. Computers and the Internet are vaguely selective in that most of the reasons one would purchase one, appeal more strongly to those who are more intelligent. Video games are arguably "harder" to enjoy than, say TV is (let alone whatever it is your stereotypical rednecks are doing). 3. Thus, the Internet has already selected for a population that is skewed somewhat above the average as far as intelligence goes. Moreover, the majority of those people who are exceptions to this rule (most of the people who comment on Youtube, for instance) are likely to take the more common viewpoint among their peers, which on the internet is already being liberal. Now, this appears to be me claiming that intelligence correlates positively with "liberal-ness" - and this is true, that is my belief, but only up to a point. To explain this, lets reverse the issue: Liberal positions (using the modern understanding of the term) are, I think, generally characterized by a belief that the end result of conservative policies is unfair, or unjust. Marx rails against the exploitation of the proletariat, the Democrats seek openly to redistribute wealth, they seek to universalize healthcare coverage, and so forth. They are, in essence, trying to help other people. This is, really, quite easy to support, on the face of it. Who doesn't want to help people? Who, really, is going to admit that they're perfectly happy with people dying from a curable illness because they cant afford treatment*? I'm making an assumption here that with increasing intelligence comes increasing empathy, which is tenuous, to be sure - but certainly as intelligence increases the capacity we have for worrying about issues which are not of direct importance to our own well being increases. Now, lets look at the result of, say, arguments against universal health care. It is an unavoidable fact that if you oppose universalized health care you must accept that some people will die when they could, perhaps, have lived with a universal system. This immediately puts conservatives in a fairly sticky position as far as arguments go. It is quite difficult to reconcile this kind of end-result with a concern for society - which is essentially what politics is, an argument over how best to serve society. It takes a great deal of intellectual fortitude to take a long, hard, unbiased look at the arguments for both sides, and moreover it takes an intellect that has passed through the phase of believing every death is a tragedy that should be prevented at all costs. Such an intellect is, I would argue, more likely to side with conservatives than not, but that particular argument has nothing to do with answering your question. People capable of this kind of cold, logical, and prolonged thinking about very inflammatory issues are few and far between. tl;dr: Conservatives are over-represented at the extreme ends of intelligence distributions, while Liberals are over-represented in the middle areas. The internet artificially selects a distribution that is biased away from the lower end of that distribution, thus resulting in an artificially high Liberal-to-Conservative ratio. *Well, I am. Having written that, I could posit another 3 possibilities for the appearance or fact of a liberal bias on the internet, but I think this one is sufficiently likely to degenerate into flames. Disclaimer: Conservative I think that most people on the internet are liberal because they are young and ignorant. It is easy to believe in change and helping out our fellow man when the truth is being hidden by a million veils. While I would love to see free health care the cost of this will drive U.S into the ground. Now I realize that this is an international site and that there are many countries in Europe that have been able to implement some variant of health care and other liberal social programs but with >300 million people it isn't plausible to cover that many people, especially when there are 3x as many U.S citizens as there is in Russia (The largest population in Europe). You spoke of how their is a correlation between intelligence and your standpoint on government and that is true. At the bottom of the group you have republican rednecks that want to protect their guns and their property (or what have you) and feel that uncle sam is an evil conglomerate (they probably don't know what that means either) that is out to control them. Then you have the average person that looks at Democratic nominees and how they are trying to help the common man (they are smooth talkers, I'll give them that). After those two groups you get to people that aren't ignorant; By that I mean you get to people that can form an opinion that is more than "I heard nancy say she wanted to help my family so I voted for her". From here you have the leaders and true members of the "Tea party" movement and you have upper middle class that actually follow politics. After these groups you get to people that pay attention to the details. The people that pay attention to the details skew to the conservative favor because they know that at our current rate of spending we will owe china more than our country is worth in 20 years! (plus other hidden truths) Balancing the budget is being hidden behind the sick children that "Can't receive health care" (that's a lie). The reason why I keep bringing up health care in a "Is the internet liberal" thread is because that is the most widely debated American topic in the last year. + Show Spoiler +More of a sidenote than part of the actual argument, Getting free health care is not as much of a daunting task as the popular news stations would like you to think it is (especially for children and elders). There is no evil executive letting Aunt betty die of cancer that she could be cured of. Now that being said I think something could and should be done for health care and that isn't a government intrusion into the private sector and it certainly isn't mandatory health care.
What I propose is similar to a tax write off. An easy way to take care of your fellow man AND pay less money to the government (conservatives are having wet dreams about it). Every year about 60% of the American population have to pay some amount of taxes (40% don't have to pay or get money back) but what I propose is having the option to donate to a "Greater Society" charity group ran by independent companies and use the documentation of your charity donations to reduce your taxes by that amount.
Say you made 100,000 a year and paid 12,000 in taxes every april, With this plan you could donate 7,000 to charity and take 8,000 off your taxes (giving a big incentive to give to charity and cutting the governments spending money by upwards of 2/3rds. This is off topic so I am not going to go through all the details I have laid out for this but at 1/3rd of a budget (from april) and shutting down the government programs that aren't needed we can limit the size of government (tbh the only thing our government does right is find ways to botch the constitution) and put all of the charity money to the needy. Why is buying stuff from China bad for the US? Globalization is good in general but if you spend too much importing from other countries it can be an issue. On a small scale it's good though. The question is, do we rely too much on China's products? On a personal level it's awesome, but as a country does the US buy too much from China? I would argue that probably so.
Protectionism on the other hand is even worse.
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On July 06 2010 04:55 ixi.genocide wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 04:42 Sadistx wrote:On July 06 2010 03:43 ixi.genocide wrote:On July 06 2010 03:14 Sadistx wrote:Of course no rational human wants babies to die, however, social dynamics are very different than they used to be . Yeah, but so called conservatives have trouble understanding that "killing babies" is a lot different from "not letting them be born". I find that most conservative opinions stem from their fear of science and religious teachings which are often irrational and prohibit things that make no logical or economic sense. That's the person, not the political group, it's just sad that they are often the same thing now  Obviously if I were seriously debating an issue, we would have to first agree on definitions. What is a conservative/liberal, etc. The problem in debating is that vague ideologies mean completely different things in the minds of different people. Or maybe they have no fucking clue what they mean, but want to argue anyway. Which is why I tend not to involve myself in debates like these, because unless you can filter the idiots out (which you can't on the internet), the debate will always spiral down to the smallest common denominator. also because we are on the internet it is harder to fully comprehend where the other persons view points are. From my posts you probably think that I am in my 30-40's (maybe more) and that I'm a strict republican but I'm 20 and don't have any loyalties to government or religion. It's all about perception of reality and that perception is different for every person. Whether you gained your thought patterns from your parents or your teachers or the books you read, it's different from everyone else.
Age has no relation in regard to how deluded or how correct one can be.
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On July 06 2010 02:59 Djzapz wrote: Seriously 787 billions is almost 8 trillions right? Clearly I'm the one who doesn't know about the stimulus package.
Well if you want to be that type of person to pull off from a mistake go right ahead and be the internet normal.
I'm not going to try to set here and justify my mistake, though so go after it all you want when I was the one who admitted to it first, but that just a strawman.
You also need to pick out the politician from the ideology, and as such pick out things that are not ducks (bombing abortion clinics in a sad attempt to justify that behavior doesn't actually mean its justify to the religion). Grouping people together because on the surface they show a link to one another, doesn't quite go together like cogs.
So lets see if you want to go from here.
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On July 06 2010 04:56 ixi.genocide wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 04:52 rockon1215 wrote:On July 06 2010 01:51 ixi.genocide wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 05 2010 19:51 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 19:19 ActualSteve wrote: (I saw the thread from 2008; new administration, different players on the web ... this topic should be brought up to date.)
Seems like every time I watch a YouTube video about politics, I read the comments. Almost every time I read the comments, I see the conservative standpoint in the minority. Almost every time said standpoint is stated, 10+ people with opposing viewpoints jump at the opportunity of ridiculing the right.
Possible questions for you:: Do you think the internet has a liberal bias? Why? What implications does this have for our future? (Unnecessary, but I'll include it: Are TL users generally liberal?)
1. Please don't go Aegrean and mind fuck us all.
2. Say something insightful.
I'm HOPING someone who is conservative makes a stand here and everyone is mature about it. I'm also hoping that this can pass as a thread and not necessarily a blog. Apologize in advance if I'm mistaken... it's been awhile.
Disclaimer: You're going to get about 2 paragraphs into this and think I'm a liberal just taking an opportunity to troll, but I assure you, I am not. Short Answer: The internet artificially selects for a liberally biased population. Long Answer: 1. We can safely assume that people who do not own computers are at the very least significantly less likely to be denizens of this hive of scum and villainy (HA HA, THE INTERNETS) than those people who do own computers. 2. Computers and the Internet are vaguely selective in that most of the reasons one would purchase one, appeal more strongly to those who are more intelligent. Video games are arguably "harder" to enjoy than, say TV is (let alone whatever it is your stereotypical rednecks are doing). 3. Thus, the Internet has already selected for a population that is skewed somewhat above the average as far as intelligence goes. Moreover, the majority of those people who are exceptions to this rule (most of the people who comment on Youtube, for instance) are likely to take the more common viewpoint among their peers, which on the internet is already being liberal. Now, this appears to be me claiming that intelligence correlates positively with "liberal-ness" - and this is true, that is my belief, but only up to a point. To explain this, lets reverse the issue: Liberal positions (using the modern understanding of the term) are, I think, generally characterized by a belief that the end result of conservative policies is unfair, or unjust. Marx rails against the exploitation of the proletariat, the Democrats seek openly to redistribute wealth, they seek to universalize healthcare coverage, and so forth. They are, in essence, trying to help other people. This is, really, quite easy to support, on the face of it. Who doesn't want to help people? Who, really, is going to admit that they're perfectly happy with people dying from a curable illness because they cant afford treatment*? I'm making an assumption here that with increasing intelligence comes increasing empathy, which is tenuous, to be sure - but certainly as intelligence increases the capacity we have for worrying about issues which are not of direct importance to our own well being increases. Now, lets look at the result of, say, arguments against universal health care. It is an unavoidable fact that if you oppose universalized health care you must accept that some people will die when they could, perhaps, have lived with a universal system. This immediately puts conservatives in a fairly sticky position as far as arguments go. It is quite difficult to reconcile this kind of end-result with a concern for society - which is essentially what politics is, an argument over how best to serve society. It takes a great deal of intellectual fortitude to take a long, hard, unbiased look at the arguments for both sides, and moreover it takes an intellect that has passed through the phase of believing every death is a tragedy that should be prevented at all costs. Such an intellect is, I would argue, more likely to side with conservatives than not, but that particular argument has nothing to do with answering your question. People capable of this kind of cold, logical, and prolonged thinking about very inflammatory issues are few and far between. tl;dr: Conservatives are over-represented at the extreme ends of intelligence distributions, while Liberals are over-represented in the middle areas. The internet artificially selects a distribution that is biased away from the lower end of that distribution, thus resulting in an artificially high Liberal-to-Conservative ratio. *Well, I am. Having written that, I could posit another 3 possibilities for the appearance or fact of a liberal bias on the internet, but I think this one is sufficiently likely to degenerate into flames. Disclaimer: Conservative I think that most people on the internet are liberal because they are young and ignorant. It is easy to believe in change and helping out our fellow man when the truth is being hidden by a million veils. While I would love to see free health care the cost of this will drive U.S into the ground. Now I realize that this is an international site and that there are many countries in Europe that have been able to implement some variant of health care and other liberal social programs but with >300 million people it isn't plausible to cover that many people, especially when there are 3x as many U.S citizens as there is in Russia (The largest population in Europe). You spoke of how their is a correlation between intelligence and your standpoint on government and that is true. At the bottom of the group you have republican rednecks that want to protect their guns and their property (or what have you) and feel that uncle sam is an evil conglomerate (they probably don't know what that means either) that is out to control them. Then you have the average person that looks at Democratic nominees and how they are trying to help the common man (they are smooth talkers, I'll give them that). After those two groups you get to people that aren't ignorant; By that I mean you get to people that can form an opinion that is more than "I heard nancy say she wanted to help my family so I voted for her". From here you have the leaders and true members of the "Tea party" movement and you have upper middle class that actually follow politics. After these groups you get to people that pay attention to the details. The people that pay attention to the details skew to the conservative favor because they know that at our current rate of spending we will owe china more than our country is worth in 20 years! (plus other hidden truths) Balancing the budget is being hidden behind the sick children that "Can't receive health care" (that's a lie). The reason why I keep bringing up health care in a "Is the internet liberal" thread is because that is the most widely debated American topic in the last year. + Show Spoiler +More of a sidenote than part of the actual argument, Getting free health care is not as much of a daunting task as the popular news stations would like you to think it is (especially for children and elders). There is no evil executive letting Aunt betty die of cancer that she could be cured of. Now that being said I think something could and should be done for health care and that isn't a government intrusion into the private sector and it certainly isn't mandatory health care.
What I propose is similar to a tax write off. An easy way to take care of your fellow man AND pay less money to the government (conservatives are having wet dreams about it). Every year about 60% of the American population have to pay some amount of taxes (40% don't have to pay or get money back) but what I propose is having the option to donate to a "Greater Society" charity group ran by independent companies and use the documentation of your charity donations to reduce your taxes by that amount.
Say you made 100,000 a year and paid 12,000 in taxes every april, With this plan you could donate 7,000 to charity and take 8,000 off your taxes (giving a big incentive to give to charity and cutting the governments spending money by upwards of 2/3rds. This is off topic so I am not going to go through all the details I have laid out for this but at 1/3rd of a budget (from april) and shutting down the government programs that aren't needed we can limit the size of government (tbh the only thing our government does right is find ways to botch the constitution) and put all of the charity money to the needy. Why is buying stuff from China bad for the US? I wasn't talking about market, I was talking about our national debt. Buy all the toys you want from china it's the money we owe and will owe in the future. My bad. I thought you were talking about the trade deficit
[/QUOTE] Why is buying stuff from China bad for the US? [/QUOTE] Globalization is good in general but if you spend too much importing from other countries it can be an issue. On a small scale it's good though. The question is, do we rely too much on China's products? On a personal level it's awesome, but as a country does the US buy too much from China? I would argue that probably so.
Protectionism on the other hand is even worse.[/QUOTE] There is nothing wrong with buying things from China. China is extremely good at producing goods cheaply. If we were to stop trading with China and produce the goods ourselves we would be worse off.
China gives up much less to produce these goods than what we would give up to produce these goods. Despite much cynicism in america, we are a very educated populace and have access to many other professions than than assembly line workers, while China is a relatively less educated and poorer populace and has much fewer options. It is in their best interest to specialize in mass production of cheap goods (for the time being) and in our best interest to specialize in other things.
China has a Comparative Advantage in the area of mass production of cheap goods
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First off, I typically find that people who label liberals as young, ignorant, and naive to have the same value as talking to a toaster. Similarly, people that label conservatives as old, greedy, and afraid of change to have about the same value as talking to a dog about economics. There are intelligent people on both sides, and there are dumb people on both sides, and these labels are nonsense (even if they are true of some individuals)
Secondly, I've always found it kind of ironic to hear this particular argument made often: I think free/cheaper health care would be a great thing, but it would drive our national debt up. Think about how much we owe China! <takes a side step> It is really good that we invaded Iraq and spent all that money trying to stabilize their country, because it was the right thing to do.
I sometimes wonder why it's only okay to do the "right thing" when it's not our country. As an aside, I wonder if there is any circumstance in which China would actually try to collect on their debt. I mean, it doesn't seem very likely that they will anytime soon, as the consequences would be obviously... disastrous.
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For now. Comparative advantage can be manipulated by a government. If we underinvest in education and research...
Schumpeter's problem with globalization is that you risk losing certain networking benefits by shipping out certain parts of the manufacturing process. Also we clearly have shown that we prefer jobs to cash (atleast on the micro level). For example, there are stories of groups of employees taking pay cuts rather than risk unemployment. While globalization does make us wealthier, we may not necessarily want to make the trade off.
Also just want to add the libertarians generally come off as insane. Markets are beautiful things, but you're asking for trouble there is not some degree of systematic planning.
Hamilton4life.
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