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Minimum wage questions

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heroyi
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1064 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-18 02:12:04
June 18 2010 01:58 GMT
#1
so i finally got hired for the first time (hurrah) after filling out about 30 applications for a summer job. i got hired at a small private owned Italian restaurant. my position is backup delivery boy/salad boy/ dishwashing boy. i finished my training and the boss is now gonna pay me through checks instead of under the table (had to fill out the employment paper).

however i just realized a dilemma....

im gonna be paid below minimum wage (cause i am technically a delivery boy thus i can receive tips). i get paid 6.50$ an hour. my friend (who hooked me for the job) is the main delivery driver. he does his job and delivery orders come at a even pace where he can get back and have another order to deliver again. i am the back up...thus i wont deliver as much probably as him thus i wont get tipped as much thus my below min. wage wont be justified without the tip.

should i be worried? i feel that the boss would have to give me a chance to at least run some deliveries to compensate my below min. wage. and plus if he reports in my payroll and the income wouldnt the IRS smell something funny if they see my paycheck too little with no tips reporting in.

i would hate to think im gonna be paid 6.50 to be doing dishes and salad when the guy doing the samething is getting paid at least min. wage you know.

p.s:

i realize my other options could be just to quit or to request not being delivery boy and just fill in the salad or dishwashing to bump my wage up. if my theory is wrong (if boss doesnt have to send me on deliveries) then i guess ill have to consider these options.

p.s.s i apologize for any mistakes or if the thread doesnt belong here. but would appreciate help thanks.
wat wat in my pants
Sadfish
Profile Joined April 2010
United States23 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-18 02:01:58
June 18 2010 02:01 GMT
#2
welcome to the business world where everything is a swindle against your favor when you are at the bottom
FraCuS
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States1072 Posts
June 18 2010 02:02 GMT
#3
6.50 an hour?!!?

what state are you from?

cause in new jersey its 7.25
my first job (currently) i got paid 8 dollars an hour.
Apink/Girl's Day/miss A/IU/Crayon Pop/Sistar/Exo K :D l Kpop and Kdrama Enthusiast
revy
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1524 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-18 02:06:46
June 18 2010 02:04 GMT
#4
It is illegal to be paid less than minimum wage. Yes there is a minimum wage for tipped people, but you have to report tips. If your hourly+tips does not add up to be minimum wage the employer must make up the difference to get you to minimum wage. This is how it works for wait staff too, back when I waited tables I was paid $4.50 an hour and had to declare a minimum of $3 per hour otherwise the restaurant would have to make up the difference to $7.50 an hour.

Ex. I get $4.50/hr and get tipped $2.00/hr which is below minimum wage at $7.50/hr. My employer automatically must pay me $5.50/hr that week otherwise I would make under minimum wage and the employer would get a huge fine.

This stuff happens automatically at restaurants, the person who does the books knows what they have to do.

Oh and if your employer tries to be a scumbag and pull a fast one on you bring him over to the mandatory posted minimum hourly sheet and say you'll call the number. If he fires you for that he's in a huge amount of trouble.
jamesr12
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States1549 Posts
June 18 2010 02:07 GMT
#5
On June 18 2010 11:04 revy wrote:
It is illegal to be paid less than minimum wage. Yes there is a minimum wage for tipped people, but you have to report tips. If your hourly+tips does not add up to be minimum wage the employer must make up the difference to get you to minimum wage. This is how it works for wait staff too, back when I waited tables I was paid $4.50 an hour and had to declare a minimum of $3 per hour otherwise the restaurant would have to make up the difference to $7.50 an hour.

Ex. I get $4.50/hr and get tipped $2.00/hr which is below minimum wage at $7.50/hr. My employer automatically must pay me $5.50/hr that week otherwise I would make under minimum wage and the employer would get a huge fine.

This stuff happens automatically at restaurants, the person who does the books knows what they have to do.



Fact so bascaly if you dont do diliveries they must pay you minnium wage, just look at your check carefuly and make sure it is being done
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=306479
3clipse
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
Canada2555 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-18 02:12:04
June 18 2010 02:10 GMT
#6
When I delivered pizzas I got minimum wage ($8.40) plus delivery fee ($1.25) plus tips.

I'm surprised it's legal to pay you a base salary below minimum wage. Those wacky Americans.

On June 18 2010 11:04 revy wrote:
It is illegal to be paid less than minimum wage. Yes there is a minimum wage for tipped people, but you have to report tips. If your hourly+tips does not add up to be minimum wage the employer must make up the difference to get you to minimum wage. This is how it works for wait staff too, back when I waited tables I was paid $4.50 an hour and had to declare a minimum of $3 per hour otherwise the restaurant would have to make up the difference to $7.50 an hour.

Well that makes more sense.
dudeman001
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States2412 Posts
June 18 2010 02:14 GMT
#7
On June 18 2010 11:10 3clipse wrote:
When I delivered pizzas I got minimum wage ($8.40) plus delivery fee ($1.25) plus tips.

I'm surprised it's legal to pay you a base salary below minimum wage. Those wacky Americans.

Show nested quote +
On June 18 2010 11:04 revy wrote:
It is illegal to be paid less than minimum wage. Yes there is a minimum wage for tipped people, but you have to report tips. If your hourly+tips does not add up to be minimum wage the employer must make up the difference to get you to minimum wage. This is how it works for wait staff too, back when I waited tables I was paid $4.50 an hour and had to declare a minimum of $3 per hour otherwise the restaurant would have to make up the difference to $7.50 an hour.

Well that makes more sense.


That's America for you. Businesses try to suck a dollar from anywhere they can.

Except for In-n-out :D Praise the one-in-a-million fast food chain that pays $10.50 an hour.
Sup.
heroyi
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1064 Posts
June 18 2010 02:18 GMT
#8
yea here (i live in fl). any sort of service that receives tips (like waiter,server, delivery person) they are usually paid below min. wage. however ever since delivery boy is considered the second (i think) most dangerous job companies now do min. wage. like i said mine is private small business. however the upside is that we serve only to a community that is full of above avg folks. so tips are like 5-10$ per trip (see now why i WANT the deliveries lol). the below min. wage is there to "compensate" the tips received...which is retarded but i am not here to argue about.

to revy: yea thats what i figured. its not a sketchy place so i think he does report the tips in. and thats what i figured cause if the irs got a hold of report from the job and they see my pay below obviously they are going to start asking questions. good to hear this though.ill make sure the check is right.

thanks a lot.

and yes america can be weird. how is other countries paying lol
wat wat in my pants
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
June 18 2010 02:39 GMT
#9
As my Grandfather told me when I got my first job, it will always be the shit end of the stick.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
neohero9
Profile Joined May 2010
United States595 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-18 02:42:02
June 18 2010 02:41 GMT
#10
Should you be worried? What about? You have a job. You have income. If you want better pay, keep applying for more jobs, but I'll tell you that you won't find much out there, both due to timing (economy still sucks) and due to your lack of job experience.

If you're concerned about getting jipped, just keep your own ledger of hours worked and tips received. Make sure they match up. A little bookkeeping can go a long way.

imo, enjoy the work, enjoy working with your bud, and don't blow all your money on stupid shit. You have it better than some of us.

EDIT: Grats on getting a job, man. I haven't been able to find one in... a very long time, and I have supervisor experience.
I cannot stand ignorance or dismissiveness. I edit every post I make-- I've edited this sig three times in an hour.
CaucasianAsian
Profile Blog Joined September 2005
Korea (South)11584 Posts
June 18 2010 02:43 GMT
#11
Man you lucky scums. When I was in high school, and I was working, I was getting paid $5.75/hr (which was ABOVE minimum wage)

Calendar@ Fish Server: `iOps]..Stark
Wangsta
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
United States776 Posts
June 18 2010 02:52 GMT
#12
to be honest, doing the dishes is one of the best things you could be doing if you are working in a restaurant. its an easy, mindless thing to do that passes time very fast, and if you wear gloves you wont be physically straining yourself in any way. waiting tables can actually be incredibly stressful depending on how busy the place is. cooking or preparing food is the WORST. ive never done delivery but that sounds like it wouldnt be too bad either.

btw, if you're still in high school or college, the absolute best part time job is to find some asian kids, befriend their parents, and then offer to tutor them in something. back in senior year i used to make $40 an hour doing that shit, which is significantly more than I make now with an actual real job (kind of depressing now that i think about it)
Wr3k
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada2533 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-18 02:59:05
June 18 2010 02:54 GMT
#13
IMO get a job painting, landscaping, maintenance etc. If you look hard enough I'm sure you can find plenty of work for at least 10-15$ per hour busting your ass instead of delivering pizzas. Last summer I mowed lawns and it added up to ~$15 hour when I calculated driving time and gas/mower costs. Hell I evev got offered a job last summer to do drywalling for 20$ an hour starting (though that was during a huge construction labor shortage, and also, you don't want to be a drywaller unless you really need the money lol).
Wr3k
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada2533 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-18 02:57:17
June 18 2010 02:56 GMT
#14
On June 18 2010 11:52 Wangsta wrote:
to be honest, doing the dishes is one of the best things you could be doing if you are working in a restaurant. its an easy, mindless thing to do that passes time very fast, and if you wear gloves you wont be physically straining yourself in any way. waiting tables can actually be incredibly stressful depending on how busy the place is. cooking or preparing food is the WORST. ive never done delivery but that sounds like it wouldnt be too bad either.

btw, if you're still in high school or college, the absolute best part time job is to find some asian kids, befriend their parents, and then offer to tutor them in something. back in senior year i used to make $40 an hour doing that shit, which is significantly more than I make now with an actual real job (kind of depressing now that i think about it)


yup tutoring is good as well. Hell I'm sure you can find some old lady who wants some work done around her house that will pay you 10-20 bucks an hour. Minimum wage sucks.

Does your gas get expensed? Otherwise you are really making more like 2$ an hour lol.
ohIdentity
Profile Joined March 2010
United States52 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-18 03:33:01
June 18 2010 03:31 GMT
#15
Whenever you get paid below minimum wage at a job if you don't make enough tips to put you at making = minimum wage then your employer (by law) has to make up the difference. If he doesn't then you can file charges against him and I think the minimum he has to pay you if it comes to that is like $1,100.00 per offense or something like that. I hope it helps. You don't have anything to worry about.

EDIT: I was beat to it, never mind. In other words, keep your job man. It's WAY too hard to find a job now-a-days.
heroyi
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1064 Posts
June 18 2010 03:31 GMT
#16
my friend (the main delivery person) makes about 3k a month...so thats good money lmao.

i really want to do landscaping/maintenance kind of work like i wouldnt mind it. however now days everyone is requesting only for people with exp. and i cant find a job nor a company willing to put up with a noob *sigh.

the job i have now isnt bad at all. its not hard work either lol though it sucks when you are stationed till closing (cause you are the last person to leave period).
wat wat in my pants
HCastorp
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States388 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-18 03:50:24
June 18 2010 03:41 GMT
#17
When I worked as a busboy/dishwasher the waiters gave me a (small) portion of their tips. this is standard in most restaurants I believe, although it seems like it would have been mentioned to you if they did that at the place you are working.

IIRC, I was paid $7 an hour by the restaurant, and typically made another $2 per hour or so on weekdays, and an additional $5 per hour or so on weekends from tips. That was a decent paying summer job for the place and time (Minneapolis 5 years ago).

Strangely enough, I actually enjoyed the first two weeks or so of washing dishes. Whipping through it insanely fast, as we had to do, actually took some skill, which was entertaining while I was still learning. I also had some interesting co-workers. Fully 100% of the staff of the restaurant with the exception of myself and one friend were recovering alcoholics/drug addicts, so I got to hear a lot of "war stories". I also got to hear the enlightening opinions of my fellow dishwashers. My favorite, delivered in all seriousness, was that "The KKK is no big deal - its basically like the NAACP for white people."

Overall it was a good job experience for me. I learned that I didn't ever want to work in a restaurant again in any capacity, even though several of my friends have had relatively enjoyable/lucrative jobs as waiters and cooks. The misery of it (after the brief learning phase) also increased my motivation to get a better job, which I did the next summer.

I would definitely second others recommendation that you try tutoring if you can. Dog walking is good too if you like/are good with dogs. If you want to get people's money, get it through their children. Children and dogs. Tons of people who never buy luxuries for themselves will go crazy buying stuff for their dog/child.
Obstikal
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
616 Posts
June 18 2010 03:47 GMT
#18
Talk to the manager or boss or who ever hired you. You need to express your situation. Tell him that you feel your getting cheated out of money because your not getting tips. If anything you should ask that he pay you min. wage when your washing dishes or prepping salads, if he says no accept it and keep working there while you look for a new job.
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
June 18 2010 03:57 GMT
#19
I have a couple of friends who are waiters and my gf is a waitress and apparently that job means you'll have like $40 of change in your car at all times. Also if you're a female you'll get significantly more tips.

Apparently in Texas the employer doesn't have to pay the difference if you make less than the minimum wage... I don't know if that's true but yeah. Good ole' TX =D
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
EnigmaZero
Profile Joined May 2010
United States56 Posts
June 18 2010 04:07 GMT
#20
Wait for your first or second paycheck before you make any judgments about how much you're going to be making, and remember that some money is better than no money. Unless you hate the job and/or don't need the money that badly, I wouldn't quit unless you can get something else lined up first.
EvilTeletubby
Profile Blog Joined January 2004
Baltimore, USA22256 Posts
June 18 2010 04:23 GMT
#21
On June 18 2010 11:39 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
As my Grandfather told me when I got my first job, it will always be the shit end of the stick.


Yeah, this.

Although, to be fair, my first job (working at a convenience store) was also the most carefree and least stressful job I've ever had. I made around $7.00 or $7.25 or so, which was above minimum wage at the time (which is what I thought I'd be making, so I was happy to have a couple extra bucks on top).

Now I make like 3x the amount, but I'm 10x as stressed. So there is definitely something to be said about those first "shit" jobs that everyone gets.
Moderatorhttp://carbonleaf.yuku.com/topic/408/t/So-I-proposed-at-a-Carbon-Leaf-concert.html ***** RIP Geoff
~ava
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Canada378 Posts
June 18 2010 05:12 GMT
#22
In Australia:

"The federal minimum wage is currently $14.31 per hour or $543.78 per 38 hour week (before tax). Casual employees covered by the federal minimum wage also get at least a 20 per cent casual loading. "

1 USD = 0.868 AUD so minimum wage is $12.42
lim1017
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada1278 Posts
June 18 2010 20:17 GMT
#23
in Canada its 10.50 i believe at least in ontario..
pontrjagin
Profile Joined June 2010
United States14 Posts
June 21 2010 04:08 GMT
#24
Well I don't think that you can just up and quit, because it would make your friend look bad. Your friend basically got you the job, right? That means the boss put some trust in your friend that you were dependable. Just wait for your first check---make sure it works out to at least minimum wage. If it doesn't, then discreetly request to talk with the boss.
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
June 21 2010 04:10 GMT
#25
On June 19 2010 05:17 lim1017 wrote:
in Canada its 10.50 i believe at least in ontario..

10.25 in Ontario
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
illu
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada2531 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-21 04:16:34
June 21 2010 04:13 GMT
#26
Errr. In Ontario, the minimum wage is $10.25 CAN per hour... most employers also need to pay 4% extra for vacation pay, which will offset the exchange rate as US dollars worth slightly more.

I can't believe working for 6.5 dollars per hour, to be honest.
:]
lac29
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States1485 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-21 04:24:27
June 21 2010 04:23 GMT
#27
It's actually kind of difficult to get a job as waiter unless you've had previous experience, at least in the US.

Like most ppl already said ... tutoring can make you a lot of money. Just put an ad on craigslist and put up your credentials. I'm making $20 an hour right now and tutoring 2 ppl on a regular basis and a few on a temporary basis. So minimum I'm spending 4 hours making $80 a week not counting any of the temp tutoring.

Edit: Look at craigslist for yardwork ... you can usually make $10+ an hour from ppl who want stuff done.
Bosu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3247 Posts
June 21 2010 04:26 GMT
#28
I was working for like $5.50 when I was 14 at McDonalds.
#1 Kwanro Fan
illu
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada2531 Posts
June 21 2010 04:31 GMT
#29
On June 21 2010 13:26 Bosu wrote:
I was working for like $5.50 when I was 14 at McDonalds.


That was a long time ago. Remember inflation.
:]
MangoTango
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States3670 Posts
June 21 2010 04:34 GMT
#30
Ah yes, trickle down economics. If you wish to imagine it in graphic terms, imagine the rich taking a huge piss on the poor. Trickle down, indeed.

Welcome to the bottom rung. May your stay be short.
"One fish, two fish, red fish, BLUE TANK!" - Artosis
MightyAtom
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
Korea (South)1897 Posts
June 21 2010 15:23 GMT
#31
Most of your future work habits will be influenced by your first job, enjoy it, make the best of it and work at it, as long as you can get some of those deliveries, then you should be fine, if not, then re-think it through, but I'm sure if the place you work for is legit, then I'm sure the boss will notice if you are working hard and if you bring it up to him I'm sure he'll understand.

This is probably contrary to a lot of people's opinions about a first job and such, but in the long run, the amount of money you get is pretty irrelevant, when I mean long run, I mean in the next 5 -10 years, just get the most out of the experience and try to save the cash you make and in all honestly work as if you are trying to 'move up' in the position. If you're still a young guy, then maybe next summer you'll get the head position.
Administrator-I am the universe- Morihei Ueshiba
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25987 Posts
June 21 2010 15:40 GMT
#32
On June 21 2010 13:26 Bosu wrote:
I was working for like $5.50 when I was 14 at McDonalds.

$6.40 when I was 15. By the time was 18 I had worked that up to $7.60, which was exactly the adult minimum wage -____-.
Moderator
Saturnize
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States2473 Posts
June 21 2010 15:47 GMT
#33
On June 18 2010 11:43 CaucasianAsian wrote:
Man you lucky scums. When I was in high school, and I was working, I was getting paid $5.75/hr (which was ABOVE minimum wage)



That's inflation for ya.
"Time to put the mustard on the hotdog. -_-"
jacen
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
Austria3644 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-21 15:50:24
June 21 2010 15:49 GMT
#34
i worked for 5,25€ w/o tips at a dvd rental store (wasn't that long ago ... 2005 i guess) with rush hours where i had to check out above 5 customers per minute just to keep up.


needless to say, i didn't stay there long.
if work vs. pay doesn't add up, leave after a few weeks.
as easy as that.
(micronesia) lol we aren't going to just permban you (micronesia) "we" excludes Jinro
DwmC_Foefen
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
Belgium2186 Posts
June 21 2010 15:52 GMT
#35
On my first job I was earning 6,7 € or something (I was 16 at the time). Now I earn around 11-12 doing the accounts/administrative jobs. Too chill :D

Just hang in there, the first job always sucks
Piy
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Scotland3152 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-21 15:59:35
June 21 2010 15:58 GMT
#36
In UK you get £4.83 an hour between 18 and 21 (what I get) and £5.80 and hour over 21.

I think it's the highest in the world, but I might be wrong. And tipped jobs are still required to be paid at least that.

But it'll be different based on state and stuff in America, so I guess I can't help :p
My. Copy. Is. Here.
Sfydjklm
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
United States9218 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-21 16:13:13
June 21 2010 16:08 GMT
#37
4 dollars an hour.
I win.
I also think trying to get your employer to make up the difference is a good way to get fired.
There are plenty of people willing to work for 6.50/hr.
twitter.com/therealdhalism | "Trying out Z = lots of losses vs inferior players until you figure out how to do it well (if it even works)."- Liquid'Tyler
ImAbstracT
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
519 Posts
June 21 2010 16:27 GMT
#38
If you get tips, you can get paid under minimum wage.
"I want you to take a moment, and reflect, on how much of a failure you are" - IdrA
15vs1
Profile Joined November 2007
64 Posts
June 21 2010 16:53 GMT
#39
Im working as a physicist at uranium enrichment plant and i get about 7$ per hour. So 6.5$ is not that bad for a first job.
Aberu
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States968 Posts
June 21 2010 16:56 GMT
#40
In certain areas they can pay you less as long as you make tips to a certain amount that compensates. But they can only do that with tips you make on checks and credit cards since those are the only trackable tips. They can't claim to say you got any tips on cash at all in delivery. I work for pizza, so I know. In some states, in some counties, it's legal what they are doing, nothing to worry about, but you know, you should work for Topper's Pizza in Camarillo, we don't do that, we pay our drivers 8.25 an hour and they keep all their tips. Average tips 4 bucks per delivery. Sweet job.

Pizza delivery is an easy job. Read your employment codes before you express your feelings to the manager. I am a manager, and it's just a nuisance when someone tries to be a "smartass" and suggest that we are treating them unfairly. I usually walk over to our labor laws poster (all businesses are required to have an updated labor law poster in their business posted at all times visibly).
srsly
ImAbstracT
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
519 Posts
June 21 2010 16:58 GMT
#41
On June 22 2010 01:53 15vs1 wrote:
Im working as a physicist at uranium enrichment plant and i get about 7$ per hour. So 6.5$ is not that bad for a first job.

I hear Iran is hiring these days.
"I want you to take a moment, and reflect, on how much of a failure you are" - IdrA
Deleted User 50491
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
721 Posts
June 21 2010 17:14 GMT
#42
On June 18 2010 11:39 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
As my Grandfather told me when I got my first job, it will always be the shit end of the stick.


Agree, and after passing through 2-3 jobs, I finally land a really good one while going to school @ 15$ /H
Reborn8u
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States1761 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-21 17:22:33
June 21 2010 17:18 GMT
#43
In most states your tips have to put you above minimum wage. You can get paid under minimum wage but ONLY if your tips and hourly wage add up to at least minimum wage. If they do not (ex: one week you only get 5$ total tips) the employer must fill in the gap. Check your states labor laws for more details. Unfortunately, most companies won't honor this. Especially one that had you working "off the books". Even if you go to labor law enforcement, you'll just end up loosing your job and this will also make it nearly impossible for you to get hired anywhere else.No one wants to hire a whistle blower. Besides that if you did work "off the books" than you are guilty of tax evasion because you agreed to it (unless you have or fully intended to declare all of your income and can prove it)
The government is very corrupt and they know you are powerless. If you state tries to pass a "right to work" type law, it's just to screw workers our of more rights. Just like how the "Patriot Act" goes directly against all of the principles this nation was founded on. Ben Franklin "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." or Patrick Henry "Give me liberty or give me death!" They're rolling in they're graves. It should be called the "Traitors Act" in that everyone who voted yes for it violated their oath of office and nobody even read it before they voted.
The "right to work" acts in many states should be called the "right to be treated the same as the illegal immigrant they'd rather hire" act.

So in the end you are supposed to get at least minimum wage no matter what. But whether or not you actually do get it and whether or not you can do anything about it without putting yourself in a worse situation is unknown. Hopefully you'll learn a lesson from this that is far more reaching than what you'll learn from just getting your first job. The little guy always gets screwed hardest and sometimes all you can do is be aware of injustice, no matter how badly it makes you grind your teeth you can't do shit.
:)
madnessman
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States1581 Posts
June 21 2010 17:23 GMT
#44
You can get a lot of money from tutoring in singapore... you could probably get a lot more money than $6.50/hour if you tutor some kid.
Number41
Profile Joined August 2008
United States130 Posts
June 21 2010 18:29 GMT
#45
Florida's minimum wage is $7.25.

Florida's tipped minimum wage $4.23. (FL min wage $7.25 minus $3.02 FLSA tip credit.)

If your tips do not put you at or over $7.25, the employer is required to make up the difference.

If the FLSA applies, and you feel that a substantial amount (20% or more) of your time is spent on non-tipped, general preparation or maintenance work, you could make an argument that you should be paid minimum wage for the time spent on that work. Section 30d00(e) of the Department of Labor’s Field Operations Handbook reads as follows:

(e) Reg 531.56(e) permits the taking of the tip credit for time spent in duties related to the tipped occupation, even though such duties are not by themselves directed toward producing tips (i.e. maintenance and preparatory or closing activities). For example a waiter/waitress, who spends some time cleaning and setting table, making coffee, and occasionally washing dishes or glasses may continue to be engaged in a tipped occupation even though these duties are not tip producing, provided such duties are incidental to the regular duties of the serve (waiter / waitress) and are generally assigned to the servers. However, where the facts indicate that specific employees are routinely assigned to maintenance, or that tipped employees spend a substantial amount of time (in excess of 20 percent) performing general preparation work or maintenance, no tip credit may be taken for the time spent in such duties.

I think that would be a waste of time, though; and it'd probably get you fired
RoosterSamurai
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Japan2108 Posts
June 21 2010 18:52 GMT
#46
If you want more money, make yourself more marketable. Go get an education, get a degree, and THEN if you are still not making enough, post a thread.
illu
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada2531 Posts
June 21 2010 19:32 GMT
#47
If you plan to get a post-secondary education and find a white-collar job, then your experience here does not matter to you and you should quit.
:]
madcow305
Profile Joined January 2010
United States152 Posts
June 22 2010 01:37 GMT
#48
On June 18 2010 11:04 revy wrote:
Oh and if your employer tries to be a scumbag and pull a fast one on you bring him over to the mandatory posted minimum hourly sheet and say you'll call the number. If he fires you for that he's in a huge amount of trouble.


You don't have much experience dealing with employers, do you?

If you make a ruckus over this, your boss doesn't have to fire you. He just has to make your job miserable, so that you'll quit voluntarily.

Example, he makes you do all the hard stuff like taking out the huge, 60pound garbage bags, every day, instead of having people take turns.

Or, he makes you work next to the oven, where it is blazing hot, every day, instead of changing shifts.

Or, when he makes the new schedule for the next week, he has you work from 9AM-11AM, then from 2PM-5PM, then from 7PM-10PM. That's still only 8 hours, but it's a shitty schedule. Or, he simply has you work 1 hour a week, under claims that "we don't have enough jobs for you to do." Essentially, he's laying you off/firing you, but without having to pay you severance.

And, he's violating no laws by doing the above, except maybe with the work scheduling issues.

Best advice for the OP in this situation? Quit, or man up and take it.

If you show your boss that you're a responsible, hardworking individual, he might boot one of the laziest kitchen staff, bump you up to that position, and give you a raise. Heck, since it's a small, family business, if you establish a good relationship with your boss, I'm sure he'll be willing to give glowing recommendations to any future employer you might have.

At worst, if your boss turns out to be an asshole and doesn't recognize your dedication, at least you can walk away then, with the knowledge that you did your best.
FreshVegetables
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Finland513 Posts
June 22 2010 01:41 GMT
#49
Wow I would never work for 6.5$/hour... My first summerjob when I was 16 I worked for 14.10$/hour.. and here I am still doing the same job this summer. Then again I guess the wages are a bit higher in Finland in general than in the US.
yummy tomatoes
daveydweeb
Profile Joined June 2010
Australia40 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-22 01:44:29
June 22 2010 01:43 GMT
#50
Posting to point out that the minimum wage here was just increased, and works out to be a little more than US$14/hr (even after the exchange rate flux). :3
SC2Phoenix
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada2814 Posts
June 22 2010 01:46 GMT
#51
6.50$? I think minimum wage here is like 8.75$
Who the fuck has a family of fucking trees? This song is so god damn stupid. Fuck you song, fuck you and your stupid trees. -itmeJP
daveydweeb
Profile Joined June 2010
Australia40 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-22 01:47:15
June 22 2010 01:47 GMT
#52
It's the land of the free. You have the right to work no matter how little you get paid!
kzn
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1218 Posts
June 22 2010 01:50 GMT
#53
On June 22 2010 02:18 Reborn8u wrote:If you state tries to pass a "right to work" type law, it's just to screw workers our of more rights.


What rights?

The only "rights" a right-to-work law abridges are the "rights" of unions to fuck the local economy right in the ass, and force up costs on everything.

Here's a blunt fact: you don't have a right to a job. You don't have a right to get paid above any particular amount.

Given that minimum wages are (unfortunately) already here to stay, just answer the OP's question instead of launching into this kind of ill-argued economically illiterate nonsense.
Like a G6
heroyi
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1064 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-22 02:00:29
June 22 2010 01:52 GMT
#54
you guyz dont really have to flame me for i was just asking if my concerns were true. i was just curious about my situation. but thanks for the rules and tips and what not.

anywhoo I read the "contract" or the employment papers and it says that the boss must make up the gap if it arise. so, im good and covered. no the boss isnt a dickwad and no i am NOT complaining about the job.



On June 22 2010 03:52 RoosterSamurai wrote:
If you want more money, make yourself more marketable. Go get an education, get a degree, and THEN if you are still not making enough, post a thread.


You really shouldn't jump to conclusions. I am 19 years old and am currently in "summer" vacation. I am a student of University of Florida (major in mechanical engineering) and now a sophmore (when fall rolls around). I, like many other COLLEGE students, are trying to get a degree so that way I can become "more marketable" and land a nice job. However, I have this SUMMER JOB to make money and gain experience in hopes of becoming "more marketable" to land a job in gainesville to make some revenue.



one step ahead of you buddy
wat wat in my pants
daveydweeb
Profile Joined June 2010
Australia40 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-22 02:08:07
June 22 2010 01:54 GMT
#55
Given that minimum wages are (unfortunately) already here to stay, just answer the OP's question instead of launching into this kind of ill-argued economically illiterate nonsense.


Fun fact: Australia, with one of the highest minimum wages in the OECD, is also the only OECD country to have avoided recession over the last two years. We also have the lowest unemployment in the developed world.

The only "rights" a right-to-work law abridges are the "rights" of unions to fuck the local economy right in the ass, and force up costs on everything.


How does it increase the cost of imported goods?
Too_MuchZerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Finland2818 Posts
June 22 2010 02:01 GMT
#56
Stop complaining about minimum wages... we don't even have that...
FreshVegetables
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Finland513 Posts
June 22 2010 02:03 GMT
#57
On June 22 2010 11:01 Too_MuchZerg wrote:
Stop complaining about minimum wages... we don't even have that...


In Finland? Oh yes we do.
yummy tomatoes
Too_MuchZerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Finland2818 Posts
June 22 2010 02:04 GMT
#58
On June 22 2010 11:03 FreshVegetables wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2010 11:01 Too_MuchZerg wrote:
Stop complaining about minimum wages... we don't even have that...


In Finland? Oh yes we do.


No we don't.
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17263 Posts
June 22 2010 02:08 GMT
#59
There is no legislated minimum wage, but the law requires all employers, including nonunionized ones, to meet the minimum wages agreed to in collective bargaining agreements in each industrial sector. These minimum wages generally provided a decent standard of living for a worker and family.


http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2003/27836.htm

You couldn't even bother taking the 10 seconds to Google that?
twitch.tv/cratonz
Too_MuchZerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Finland2818 Posts
June 22 2010 02:12 GMT
#60
On June 22 2010 11:08 Craton wrote:
Show nested quote +
There is no legislated minimum wage, but the law requires all employers, including nonunionized ones, to meet the minimum wages agreed to in collective bargaining agreements in each industrial sector. These minimum wages generally provided a decent standard of living for a worker and family.


http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2003/27836.htm

You couldn't even bother taking the 10 seconds to Google that?


I don't know who you meant but let me bold important points if it was me :D
jcarlsoniv
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States27922 Posts
June 22 2010 02:15 GMT
#61
On June 22 2010 10:54 daveydweeb wrote:
Show nested quote +
Given that minimum wages are (unfortunately) already here to stay, just answer the OP's question instead of launching into this kind of ill-argued economically illiterate nonsense.


Fun fact: Australia, with one of the highest minimum wages in the OECD, is also the only OECD country to have avoided recession over the last two years. We also have the lowest unemployment in the developed world.

How does it increase the cost of imported goods?


That is quite an interesting fact...

Here in Connecticut, minimum wage is $8.25, one of the highest in the states I think. Right now I'm getting $10/hr, working 10 hr days. It's rough, but it's good money for a kid between his freshman and sophomore years of college...
Soniv ||| Soniv#1962 ||| @jcarlsoniv ||| The Big Golem ||| Join the Glorious Evolution. What's your favorite aminal, a bear? ||| Joe "Don't call me Daniel" "Soniv" "Daniel" Carlsberg LXIX ||| Paging Dr. John Shadow
kzn
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1218 Posts
June 22 2010 02:24 GMT
#62
On June 22 2010 10:54 daveydweeb wrote:Fun fact: Australia, with one of the highest minimum wages in the OECD, is also the only OECD country to have avoided recession over the last two years. We also have the lowest unemployment in the developed world.


Completely unrelated facts.

What, precisely, is your point?

How does it increase the cost of imported goods?


It doesn't, but it renders the economy affected by a minimum wage less competitive against imports, resulting in less employment and less general wealth for the residents of that economy.
Like a G6
daveydweeb
Profile Joined June 2010
Australia40 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-22 02:32:17
June 22 2010 02:28 GMT
#63
On June 22 2010 11:24 kzn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2010 10:54 daveydweeb wrote:Fun fact: Australia, with one of the highest minimum wages in the OECD, is also the only OECD country to have avoided recession over the last two years. We also have the lowest unemployment in the developed world.


Completely unrelated facts.

What, precisely, is your point?


Maybe you could make an argument, not just an assertion.

Mine is that the minimum wage has contributed not only to our economic stability during a major economic crisis, and guaranteed a minimum quality of life even for the people most at risk. It has demonstrably not affected the "cost of everything" (which I presume to mean the cost of living), since we're right at the top of the pile even after one of the most economically stressful periods in years.

Show nested quote +
How does it increase the cost of imported goods?


It doesn't, but it renders the economy affected by a minimum wage less competitive against imports, resulting in less employment and less general wealth for the residents of that economy.


Ah. So you're redacting your statement that it increases the cost of everything, then? Perhaps, while you're there, you should reconcile your statement that the minimum wage reduces employment with our current ~5% unemployment rate? :3 You actually quoted me saying that, so it's a little poor to ignore that statement and make another that opposes it without actually trying to reply.
kzn
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1218 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-22 02:59:09
June 22 2010 02:41 GMT
#64
On June 22 2010 11:28 daveydweeb wrote:Maybe you could make an argument, not just an assertion.


I wasn't responding to an argument, there was nothing for me to make.

Mine is that the minimum wage has contributed not only to our economic stability during a major economic crisis, and guaranteed a minimum quality of life even for the people most at risk. It has demonstrably not affected the "cost of everything" (which I presume to mean the cost of living), since we're right at the top of the pile even after one of the most economically stressful periods in years.


In rough order:

You have no way of demonstrating that your minimum wage was a major contributing factor (or a factor at all) to your avoidance of a recession. It could well have been the result of an almost infinite number of alternate factors. Off the top of my head, the ones I'd look at first would be how small/self-contained the economy is, how reliant on imports it is, how active it is in worldwide financial markets, what the money supply looked like prior to the recession hitting other countries, and how much of the economic activity was generated by government spending.

Secondly, if you want to guarantee a minimum quality of life to people, thats fine. Thats a decision a country can and should be able to make. But it is not something that you can do free. It is a matter of logical necessity that if a change of any kind is required to guarantee a minimum quality of life, that change will impact the rest of the economy (negatively, also by matter of logical necessity). If that cost is worth it to the country in question, all the more power to you for making the right decision.

Thirdly, your position in terms of economic growth/whether or not you had a recession has nothing to do with whether or not a minimum wage increases the cost of everything. It rather demonstrably has, since the in terms of PPP Australia is more expensive than the US (and a vast list of other countries).

It is a matter of economic fact that a minimum wage will either do nothing at all, or render the affected economy less competitive against economies without a minimum wage. If data does not reflect this, the explanation is far more likely to be a mitigating factor elsewhere, not a failing of economic theory.

Ah. So you're redacting your statement that it increases the cost of everything, then? Perhaps, while you're there, you should reconcile your statement that the minimum wage reduces employment with our current ~5% unemployment rate? :3


1. No, I am not. It increases the relative cost of everything, as import prices will not change but people will be forced to buy what they need with less production to back it, and thus (again, by logical necessity) with less wealth to purchase it.

2. It is entirely possible to pass a minimum wage that has no effect on employment - but by default if you manage to do that, you never needed to pass the minimum wage in the first place. Unemployment measurements are woefully bad at capturing unemployment changes that occur at the lowest income levels, because the incentive to actively seek another job is much lower when your options for "another job" all pay tiny wages. I would put it to you that your unemployment is actually much higher than 5%, but because people who are cut out of jobs by a minimum wage law simply choose to stop looking for work, they are not measured. As far as I know, there's not actually any data that could confirm or disconfirm that hypothesis, so its basically up in the air as an empirical argument.

[edit] After investigating, the latest Australian data for underemployment (unemployment + those who want to work more) was fairly high at ~14% (granted not as high as the US), and that still misses most of the people I suspect are pushed out of jobs by a minimum wage.
Like a G6
Divinek
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Canada4045 Posts
June 22 2010 02:44 GMT
#65
On June 22 2010 11:15 jcarlsoniv wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2010 10:54 daveydweeb wrote:
Given that minimum wages are (unfortunately) already here to stay, just answer the OP's question instead of launching into this kind of ill-argued economically illiterate nonsense.


Fun fact: Australia, with one of the highest minimum wages in the OECD, is also the only OECD country to have avoided recession over the last two years. We also have the lowest unemployment in the developed world.

How does it increase the cost of imported goods?


That is quite an interesting fact...

Here in Connecticut, minimum wage is $8.25, one of the highest in the states I think. Right now I'm getting $10/hr, working 10 hr days. It's rough, but it's good money for a kid between his freshman and sophomore years of college...



there's almost no job in my town that pays less than 11, i think one or two fast food places maybe but even most of them pay atleast 11. Though it's not the actual minimum it pretty much is for this town
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Oh goodness me, FOX tv where do you get your sight? Can't you keep track, the puck is black. That's why the ice is white.
Dmytro
Profile Joined November 2005
United States19 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-22 04:40:00
June 22 2010 04:37 GMT
#66
Personally I say stick to it and work your way up specially if this is your first real job am 23 and still in university I worked as a diesel mechanic for 3 years radio DJ for 1 and I been working as a busboy for the past 2 years the funny thing is that I make more money cleaning tables than in my previous two jobs if you are smart and can figure things out stick to jobs where you get compensation my base pay is 4.25 but once I add up the tips I run at $18 because I figured things out just learn how to exploit the system... working in kitchens is great experience imo
Qualm
Profile Joined December 2009
721 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-22 05:44:24
June 22 2010 05:38 GMT
#67
Here (Canada) the minimum wage is 9.5$, which is current about 9.28 USD.

But yeah, you should wait for a paycheck or two before giving up. Also, you're better off being payed slightly below the minimum wage than not being payed at all if you really need the money (if it took you 30 applications to get a job, is it easy for you to get another one?).
_______

On June 22 2010 03:52 RoosterSamurai wrote:
If you want more money, make yourself more marketable. Go get an education, get a degree, and THEN if you are still not making enough, post a thread.


WTF? So you recommend to everyone not to work before they get a degree? How the hell do you want get served at McDonalds?
FreshVegetables
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Finland513 Posts
June 22 2010 16:44 GMT
#68
On June 22 2010 11:04 Too_MuchZerg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2010 11:03 FreshVegetables wrote:
On June 22 2010 11:01 Too_MuchZerg wrote:
Stop complaining about minimum wages... we don't even have that...


In Finland? Oh yes we do.


No we don't.


Well theorically you're right but in reality there's still a minimum wage here. I'm actually quite surprised that there isnt a set minimum wage here, as I have heard people talk about it before.

What i'm saying is there isn't a set minium wage by law. But as a fellow finnish man you would know that "TES - työehtosopimus"* has a minimum wage.


yummy tomatoes
Tal
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
United Kingdom1017 Posts
June 22 2010 17:55 GMT
#69
On June 22 2010 11:41 kzn wrote:

You have no way of demonstrating that your minimum wage was a major contributing factor (or a factor at all) to your avoidance of a recession. It could well have been the result of an almost infinite number of alternate factors. Off the top of my head, the ones I'd look at first would be how small/self-contained the economy is, how reliant on imports it is, how active it is in worldwide financial markets, what the money supply looked like prior to the recession hitting other countries, and how much of the economic activity was generated by government spending.


By the same logic, due to the complexity of any economy, what evidence do you have that the minimum wage is damaging in any way?


On June 22 2010 11:41 kzn wrote:
Secondly, if you want to guarantee a minimum quality of life to people, thats fine. Thats a decision a country can and should be able to make. But it is not something that you can do free. It is a matter of logical necessity that if a change of any kind is required to guarantee a minimum quality of life, that change will impact the rest of the economy (negatively, also by matter of logical necessity). If that cost is worth it to the country in question, all the more power to you for making the right decision.


Aren't there many ways that providing a minimum standard of living can massively benefit an economy? For example, instead of struggling to make ends meet in their spare time and being depressed and stressed, workers have a good enough standard of living to do their job properly.

Currently I'm living and working in China, so I can see the day to day effect of people living without any of the benefits we'd be accustomed to. As far as I can see, lack of rights actually massively screws up the quality of work. People work more hours for sure, and there is no shortage of competition for any job. But in almost every field, quality and professionalism is just much lower. Perhaps this is down to other factors, but so far my experience is heightening my scepticism of the free market.


It is what you read when you don't have to that determines what you will be when you can't help it.
kzn
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1218 Posts
June 23 2010 00:59 GMT
#70
On June 23 2010 02:55 Tal wrote:By the same logic, due to the complexity of any economy, what evidence do you have that the minimum wage is damaging in any way?


My evidence, such as it is, is the fact that commonly accepted economic theory requires that it is.


On June 22 2010 11:41 kzn wrote:Aren't there many ways that providing a minimum standard of living can massively benefit an economy? For example, instead of struggling to make ends meet in their spare time and being depressed and stressed, workers have a good enough standard of living to do their job properly.


That is already a concern for employers - but the fact is, there are some jobs where the improved work ethic (or whatever you want to call it) doesn't outweigh the fact you are overpaying for the work. It is, quite simply, not worth paying someone $7.50/hour to lace shoes, or put together peripherals, or whatever the sweatshop work of choice is.

Currently I'm living and working in China, so I can see the day to day effect of people living without any of the benefits we'd be accustomed to. As far as I can see, lack of rights actually massively screws up the quality of work. People work more hours for sure, and there is no shortage of competition for any job. But in almost every field, quality and professionalism is just much lower.


And the fact that this continues to be the case suggests that companies have looked at the costs and benefits of raising pay to raise quality/professionalism, and have decided its not worth it. That is their decision to make, not the workers.
Like a G6
Tal
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
United Kingdom1017 Posts
June 23 2010 02:10 GMT
#71
Good answers, thank you.

I guess I would like to move towards a world without the option for cheap labour - where everything is of higher quality and of course higher price. I think having people impelled by circumstance to work below minimum wage is damaging to society.

Obviously, there are enormous practical problems with this. As you point out, there is a lot of evidence that many companies will profit more by ignoring workers rights than by respecting them.
But, I don't think society should be run according to business profits.

Breaking news: Having just looked at the latest UK budget, it seems the Tory/Libdem government are pretty much entirely on your side. At least I won''t be home for a while...
It is what you read when you don't have to that determines what you will be when you can't help it.
kzn
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1218 Posts
June 23 2010 05:24 GMT
#72
On June 23 2010 11:10 Tal wrote:I guess I would like to move towards a world without the option for cheap labour - where everything is of higher quality and of course higher price. I think having people impelled by circumstance to work below minimum wage is damaging to society.


Barring eugenics/genetic engineering, there will always be people who are worse "people" (for want of a better word) - they will not have the talent/intelligence/strength to do the jobs that pay a lot. They will always be worse off than the people who got lucky in the genetic lottery - and to be sure, this isn't really fair.

But when I see proposals that are supposed to change this, they never accept reality. Talk of workers rights and such just makes no sense - these people are not worth being paid more than they are paid, or they would be paid more. If you want to improve their quality of life by improving their pay, someone else, somewhere, has to take a corresponding drop in pay, and thus a drop in quality of life (although the latter drop will not be of corresponding size).

I don't think that option is any more fair than the default, but that, at least, is an opinion, and thus something you can just hand to a country with a referendum and see what they say.
Like a G6
Sadist
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States7290 Posts
June 23 2010 05:34 GMT
#73
On June 23 2010 14:24 kzn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 23 2010 11:10 Tal wrote:I guess I would like to move towards a world without the option for cheap labour - where everything is of higher quality and of course higher price. I think having people impelled by circumstance to work below minimum wage is damaging to society.


Barring eugenics/genetic engineering, there will always be people who are worse "people" (for want of a better word) - they will not have the talent/intelligence/strength to do the jobs that pay a lot. They will always be worse off than the people who got lucky in the genetic lottery - and to be sure, this isn't really fair.

But when I see proposals that are supposed to change this, they never accept reality. Talk of workers rights and such just makes no sense - these people are not worth being paid more than they are paid, or they would be paid more. If you want to improve their quality of life by improving their pay, someone else, somewhere, has to take a corresponding drop in pay, and thus a drop in quality of life (although the latter drop will not be of corresponding size).

I don't think that option is any more fair than the default, but that, at least, is an opinion, and thus something you can just hand to a country with a referendum and see what they say.



wow you are a huge asshole.

Do you really think CEO's are worth 200-500x the average workers salary? Get real.

I had a job that paid $15 after getting experience that any bum off the street could do. I worked no harder or had any other skill than when I was being paid $7.00 at the country club here in Lansing.

You are really full of complete shit. There comes a point in society where you can make money by simply having money. Two of the big wigs in lansing here just sold the state police headquarters for a $40 million dollar profit. They did absolutely nothing but provide capital for the building to be built and in turn made $40 million dollars while all the engineers and project managers/builders did the damn work.


Dont give me that shit about being paid what you are worth and having to do with talent or skill. Thats complete bullshit.
How do you go from where you are to where you want to be? I think you have to have an enthusiasm for life. You have to have a dream, a goal and you have to be willing to work for it. Jim Valvano
illu
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada2531 Posts
June 23 2010 05:41 GMT
#74
WEEEEEEE

A thread originally about a part-time job just became a politics thread.
:]
Too_MuchZerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Finland2818 Posts
June 23 2010 05:42 GMT
#75
On June 23 2010 01:44 FreshVegetables wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2010 11:04 Too_MuchZerg wrote:
On June 22 2010 11:03 FreshVegetables wrote:
On June 22 2010 11:01 Too_MuchZerg wrote:
Stop complaining about minimum wages... we don't even have that...


In Finland? Oh yes we do.


No we don't.


Well theorically you're right but in reality there's still a minimum wage here. I'm actually quite surprised that there isnt a set minimum wage here, as I have heard people talk about it before.

What i'm saying is there isn't a set minium wage by law. But as a fellow finnish man you would know that "TES - työehtosopimus"* has a minimum wage.




We don't need to set minimum wage because unions controls wages.
kzn
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1218 Posts
June 23 2010 05:50 GMT
#76
On June 23 2010 14:34 Sadist wrote:wow you are a huge asshole.


The arguments!

Do you really think CEO's are worth 200-500x the average workers salary? Get real.


Yes, they are.

I had a job that paid $15 after getting experience that any bum off the street could do. I worked no harder or had any other skill than when I was being paid $7.00 at the country club here in Lansing.


Gonna need more than your word to believe that.

You are really full of complete shit. There comes a point in society where you can make money by simply having money. Two of the big wigs in lansing here just sold the state police headquarters for a $40 million dollar profit. They did absolutely nothing but provide capital for the building to be built and in turn made $40 million dollars while all the engineers and project managers/builders did the damn work.


Because putting a large amount of capital at risk should have no benefits. Thats a good idea.

Oh, wait.

Dont give me that shit about being paid what you are worth and having to do with talent or skill. Thats complete bullshit.


You're gonna need more than a doubtful personal experience and an anecdote that doesn't even support your claims to establish that.
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FiWiFaKi
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Canada9859 Posts
June 23 2010 06:00 GMT
#77
In Alberta minimum wage is $8.80 and my starting wage when I worked at Dairy Queen was $12.00... Damn the situation in the US sucks.
In life, the journey is more satisfying than the destination. || .::Entrepreneurship::. Living a few years of your life like most people won't, so that you can spend the rest of your life like most people can't || Mechanical Engineering & Economics Major
Sadist
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States7290 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-23 06:04:26
June 23 2010 06:04 GMT
#78
On June 23 2010 14:50 kzn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 23 2010 14:34 Sadist wrote:wow you are a huge asshole.


The arguments!

Show nested quote +
Do you really think CEO's are worth 200-500x the average workers salary? Get real.


Yes, they are.

Show nested quote +
I had a job that paid $15 after getting experience that any bum off the street could do. I worked no harder or had any other skill than when I was being paid $7.00 at the country club here in Lansing.


Gonna need more than your word to believe that.

Show nested quote +
You are really full of complete shit. There comes a point in society where you can make money by simply having money. Two of the big wigs in lansing here just sold the state police headquarters for a $40 million dollar profit. They did absolutely nothing but provide capital for the building to be built and in turn made $40 million dollars while all the engineers and project managers/builders did the damn work.


Because putting a large amount of capital at risk should have no benefits. Thats a good idea.

Oh, wait.

Show nested quote +
Dont give me that shit about being paid what you are worth and having to do with talent or skill. Thats complete bullshit.


You're gonna need more than a doubtful personal experience and an anecdote that doesn't even support your claims to establish that.



My point was that they had no talent or skill and yet made a 40 million dollar profit simply because they have the money to do so. Providing capital isnt a skill. Getting a contract for the state police to build a building isnt a skill either. They pay lawyers to handle things like that. One is a real estate guy the other owns the biggest trash collecting business in town.

Business owners make a disproportionate amount of money compared to their workers. I argue that in a lot of cases its bullshit because they dont actually do anything when they are making their top money. Sure some may have to grind it out in the early going, but when the big bucks start coming in they can sit on their ass and hire someone to do their job.

And as far as my personal experience......ya data entry and sitting on a computer 8 hrs a day is much harder than bussing tables.

Grow up. I hope you arent one of those upper middle class libertarian white kids because you come off as one =)
How do you go from where you are to where you want to be? I think you have to have an enthusiasm for life. You have to have a dream, a goal and you have to be willing to work for it. Jim Valvano
agen
Profile Joined October 2008
Barbados111 Posts
June 23 2010 06:39 GMT
#79
On June 22 2010 11:41 kzn wrote:

It is a matter of economic fact that a minimum wage will either do nothing at all, or render the affected economy less competitive against economies without a minimum wage. If data does not reflect this, the explanation is far more likely to be a mitigating factor elsewhere, not a failing of economic theory.



A failing of economic theory? Nooo, not possible.
condoriano
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States826 Posts
June 23 2010 06:50 GMT
#80
On June 18 2010 11:10 3clipse wrote:
When I delivered pizzas I got minimum wage ($8.40) plus delivery fee ($1.25) plus tips.

I'm surprised it's legal to pay you a base salary below minimum wage. Those wacky Americans.

Show nested quote +
On June 18 2010 11:04 revy wrote:
It is illegal to be paid less than minimum wage. Yes there is a minimum wage for tipped people, but you have to report tips. If your hourly+tips does not add up to be minimum wage the employer must make up the difference to get you to minimum wage. This is how it works for wait staff too, back when I waited tables I was paid $4.50 an hour and had to declare a minimum of $3 per hour otherwise the restaurant would have to make up the difference to $7.50 an hour.

Well that makes more sense.


Waiters actually don't report shit besides that minimum thus they don't pay taxes off their tips. Trust me, they are not suffering. Most places you can pull 100$ a night no problem, when it's real busy you can make anything up to 300-400$$, all of it is cash, goes right into your pocket. Considering most cooks make 8-12$/hr waiters should never complain, they are annoying enough as it is.
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Wilko
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Germany470 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-23 06:57:55
June 23 2010 06:53 GMT
#81
On June 23 2010 15:00 Skillz_Man wrote:
In Alberta minimum wage is $8.80 and my starting wage when I worked at Dairy Queen was $12.00... Damn the situation in the US sucks.


In Germany minimum wage isn't even existing
Kyhol
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Canada2575 Posts
June 23 2010 06:58 GMT
#82
I never read the OP but I'll say how much minimum wage is here. 10.25 is minimum wage where i live.
Wishing you well.
KsBerzerk
Profile Joined July 2009
Japan105 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-23 07:03:12
June 23 2010 07:01 GMT
#83
currently the federal minimum is 7.25 employers can't go lower than that and tip shouldn't factor in. ur employer sounds like he/she is trying to take advantage of you

also look up ur state one cuz if it's higher than the federal then you'll receive the state minimum wage over the federal
Tal
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
United Kingdom1017 Posts
June 23 2010 07:04 GMT
#84
On June 23 2010 14:24 kzn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 23 2010 11:10 Tal wrote:I guess I would like to move towards a world without the option for cheap labour - where everything is of higher quality and of course higher price. I think having people impelled by circumstance to work below minimum wage is damaging to society.


Barring eugenics/genetic engineering, there will always be people who are worse "people" (for want of a better word) - they will not have the talent/intelligence/strength to do the jobs that pay a lot. They will always be worse off than the people who got lucky in the genetic lottery - and to be sure, this isn't really fair.

But when I see proposals that are supposed to change this, they never accept reality. Talk of workers rights and such just makes no sense - these people are not worth being paid more than they are paid, or they would be paid more. If you want to improve their quality of life by improving their pay, someone else, somewhere, has to take a corresponding drop in pay, and thus a drop in quality of life (although the latter drop will not be of corresponding size).

I don't think that option is any more fair than the default, but that, at least, is an opinion, and thus something you can just hand to a country with a referendum and see what they say.


While I agree that not everyone has the skill or discipline to do a high-paying job, I think that anyone can do a job worth paying minimum wage for. Perhaps in some cases they might need basic training, but that's about it. Things will never be truly fair, but if you get to a stage where the least well off can live a happy and fulfilling life, I think that's good enough.

Are you really contending that the masses of people in India and China working below minimum wage aren't good enough workers to deserve it? Seems a tricky position to maintain. I think it's because of structural unfairness/power relations etc, not lack of talent. No need for your eugenics
It is what you read when you don't have to that determines what you will be when you can't help it.
blomsterjohn
Profile Joined June 2008
Norway466 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-23 07:12:45
June 23 2010 07:10 GMT
#85
In Norway you can get a customer service job as 18, with no education what so ever, and start at ~18$ pr hour..

us evil socialists

Talk of workers rights and such just makes no sense - these people are not worth being paid more than they are paid, or they would be paid more.


Wow..
dogabutila
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States1437 Posts
June 23 2010 07:30 GMT
#86
On June 22 2010 10:54 daveydweeb wrote:
Show nested quote +
Given that minimum wages are (unfortunately) already here to stay, just answer the OP's question instead of launching into this kind of ill-argued economically illiterate nonsense.


Fun fact: Australia, with one of the highest minimum wages in the OECD, is also the only OECD country to have avoided recession over the last two years. We also have the lowest unemployment in the developed world.

Show nested quote +
The only "rights" a right-to-work law abridges are the "rights" of unions to fuck the local economy right in the ass, and force up costs on everything.


How does it increase the cost of imported goods?


Import taxes and tariffs.

There is currently a single american company making ironing boards (you know, pressing your clothes to make them neat and stuff). The workers get paid per board made and the factory averages some crazy number. It comes out to like $17 an hour, but it is hard work.

They are undercut by chinese factories which have lower costs and significantly lower payroll costs and whose only real expense that is NOT lower then the american factory is shipping. Still, they come out significantly cheaper.

To balance this fact, the united states government put some huge import tariff (for dumping, ie. selling something under market value) on the chinese for ironing boards. This tariff is the only reason this factory can survive.


Now imagine that the facroty unionized and was required to be paid a certain amount instead of per - item produced. Would a union settle for less then they currently make? Not really. So in turn either the factory cuts profits (who does that), passes the cost onto consumers, and causes the import taxes to go up even more.

Not to mention, when paid a guaranteed amount, people don't work as hard. Paying for output makes shittons more sense then paying everybody the same thing no matter what.


Another thing I would like to note is that unemployment numbers mean shit all. People might have jobs, but they might not be jobs that matter. Case in point - The economy in america is looking better right? Unemployment is down? More people are getting jobs? WRONG. The economy is just as fucked up as it was before (and even more so) and the only reason that it looks like jobs are being created is because 80% of hte people hired this year were temp jobs for the census that was done. At the end of this year, when people are laid off payrolls the economy will actually look shittier then it actually is because all those same people being hired now (making things look better then they actually are) will be thrown into those unemployment // people losing jobs numbers.

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kzn
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1218 Posts
June 23 2010 07:32 GMT
#87
On June 23 2010 15:04 Sadist wrote:My point was that they had no talent or skill and yet made a 40 million dollar profit simply because they have the money to do so. Providing capital isnt a skill. Getting a contract for the state police to build a building isnt a skill either. They pay lawyers to handle things like that. One is a real estate guy the other owns the biggest trash collecting business in town.


You don't end up with enough money to make $40mil profit without talent or skill. Maybe you inherited enough to do that, but without talent or skill you sure as fuck wont be making profit off of it very much or for very long.

Business owners make a disproportionate amount of money compared to their workers.


Because they take a disproportionate amount of the risk.

And as far as my personal experience......ya data entry and sitting on a computer 8 hrs a day is much harder than bussing tables.


Data entry tends to require ~60+wpm, which seems like nothing to us because we spend all our time on computers anyway, but that immediately cuts out a segment of the worst workers from being able to do the job. It requires people to be computer proficient, which cuts out another segment, and it takes focus despite being boring as all fuck.

Bussing tables doesn't require any of that. It requires you to be able to perform a memorized set of tasks over and over. It might be more labor intensive, but that isn't the same as harder.

Grow up. I hope you arent one of those upper middle class libertarian white kids because you come off as one =)


I hope you have more of an argument than the same platitudes Marx spouted decades ago.
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kzn
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1218 Posts
June 23 2010 07:44 GMT
#88
On June 23 2010 16:04 Tal wrote: While I agree that not everyone has the skill or discipline to do a high-paying job, I think that anyone can do a job worth paying minimum wage for. Perhaps in some cases they might need basic training, but that's about it. Things will never be truly fair, but if you get to a stage where the least well off can live a happy and fulfilling life, I think that's good enough.


Its not just a question of "can you do work worth X". Its a question of how much other people will charge to do that work. Its a question of how much of that work needs to be done, and how many workers are able to do it.

What about people who are born mentally retarded, or disabled, or with some condition that severely impacts their ability to do work that "normally" isn't hard for people? Certainly, they will have to rely on charity, but shouldn't the option be there for them to work for a supplemental income?

Forcing people to hire them at minimum wage doesn't actually accomplish that - it equates to charity, because the employer is paying more than they should.

Some people apparently like the feel of working (I confess I don't understand it). It should be up to them if they want to work at lower than minimum wage.

Are you really contending that the masses of people in India and China working below minimum wage aren't good enough workers to deserve it?


No, but I am contending that if you gave them a choice between working the jobs they work now and not working at all, or working less hours at a higher wage, they would choose to continue with what they're doing now.

Some of them might well be tremendously valuable workers, but their location simply doesn't have the infrastructure to let them do what they're best at. This is a tragedy, but its not something we can force other people to pay for.

Seems a tricky position to maintain. I think it's because of structural unfairness/power relations etc, not lack of talent. No need for your eugenics


It doesn't matter what the distribution of talents looks like. Lets take IQ as an example, even though it doesn't come close to covering a significant part of what is needed in most jobs.

IQ is distributed normally around a mean of 100 worldwide (roughly). This means that the vast majority of workers are within one standard deviation of a 100 IQ (which, iirc, roughly correlates to like 85-115 range). Jobs that require one to have an IQ within that range thus have a vast supply of potential workers.

Basic supply and demand requires that because of this, the wage paid for that labor will be the wage that meets market equilibrium.

There will also be a significant minority of workers who have an IQ in excess of 150 (0.1%? or something tiny like that). For the sake of the analogy, lets assume that there's a job that cannot be done by people with less than 150 IQ. The pool of workers who can do this job is minuscule compared to the previous job, and thus basic supply and demand requires that the equilibrium wage for this work will be much higher (unless the demand for that job's output is much lower).

It doesn't really matter what abilities/talents we're dealing with. It doesn't even matter if you're right that there's a structural unfairness - that will simply pile on top of the default unfairness of the genetic lottery, which will remain even if you fix the structural issues.

It doesn't matter what the distribution centers around, either - if the average IQ was 150, there would be workers with an IQ of 200 who would be equally rare and in demand, and the workers between 135-165 would be the "commoners" of the situation.

Normal distributions will hold in any situation where a large number of variables determine the end result - such as genetic inheritance. Unless we artificially reduce the variance in talents/abilities/etc throughout the human population, there will always be significant inequalities between the earnings of the majority of the distribution and the earnings of the top end.

Its certainly not a position that you can maintain while holding onto any kind of moral high ground, but I'm convinced its the only position you can maintain while being logically consistent.
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dogabutila
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States1437 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-23 09:15:53
June 23 2010 09:04 GMT
#89

What about people who are born mentally retarded, or disabled, or with some condition that severely impacts their ability to do work that "normally" isn't hard for people? Certainly, they will have to rely on charity, but shouldn't the option be there for them to work for a supplemental income?

Forcing people to hire them at minimum wage doesn't actually accomplish that - it equates to charity, because the employer is paying more than they should.


This is where tax incentives come in.
/// although I do firmly believe that we are better off without them in my workplace notwithstanding. However I just wanted to point out that giving them jobs isn't charity, there is a reason why we hire them. Apparently the tax benefits are significant. It /does/ turn it from charity from the employer into charity from the government though, and I don't really see why we (taxpayers) have to support them having a job.

Parents responsibility, they brought the kid in knowing what they do, they should take care of it and not "dump" them on the rest of us.


Show nested quote +
Are you really contending that the masses of people in India and China working below minimum wage aren't good enough workers to deserve it?


No, but I am contending that if you gave them a choice between working the jobs they work now and not working at all, or working less hours at a higher wage, they would choose to continue with what they're doing now.


Actually, I've done some overseas work, and they would prefer that last option. It gives them more time to spend at home. A lot of the factory workers my parents worked with ( I worked with the children ) had regrets that they could not spend more time with their families, and the children wanted their parents around.

// This however should not be construed to be an argument FOR a minimum wage. If there was a minimum wage, it would inflate prices to keep the same margins. Realistically, look at what unions and minimum wage laws have lead us to. Almost every sector that makes things, (barring more complicated things) can be undercut by lower paid workers in mexico or china. And it has happened. This is not necessarily a bad thing since it keeps prices here lower and enables us on the consumer side to consume more goods. However, if china and mexico also implimented minimum wage stuffs, then our prices inflate again. Our workers are then more competitive, but we can consume less. Its all a cycle that really depends on legislative whims. What is more important though, making our own shit? or being able to buy more shit? I submit that the more independant and self-reliant one is (or a country is) the better for that country.


Show nested quote +
Seems a tricky position to maintain. I think it's because of structural unfairness/power relations etc, not lack of talent. No need for your eugenics


Eugenics shit.


The problem with all this is that IQ (as noted) does not determine job fitness. Plenty of other things do. It's more of a skills bartering market then something only related to distribution and numbers. While it /could/ be a valid way of breaking things down, it is in my opinion far too simplistic.
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kzn
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1218 Posts
June 23 2010 09:07 GMT
#90
On June 23 2010 18:04 dogabutila wrote:This is where tax incentives come in.


All a tax incentive does is change who is paying for the work that doesn't get done.

Actually, I've done some overseas work, and they would prefer that last option. It gives them more time to spend at home.


And not enough money to buy food.

[/quote]The problem with all this is that IQ (as noted) does not determine job fitness. Plenty of other things do. It's more of a skills bartering market then something only related to distribution and numbers. While it /could/ be a valid way of breaking things down, it is in my opinion far too simplistic.[/QUOTE]

It doesn't matter that IQ doesn't determine job fitness. Job fitness is determined by a vast number of variables, some of which are genetic and thus randomly distributed and some of which are not, and thus cannot adequately be described by a statistical distribution.

The point I was making, far from being eugenics shit, was that no matter what you do you're going to have some people whose skills are very much in demand and thus command a very high wage, and people whose skills are common, and thus cannot command a high wage. You cant change this without changing the way genetic outcomes are distributed.
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dogabutila
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States1437 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-23 09:16:25
June 23 2010 09:14 GMT
#91
geraiuhuaeih


Cant get this editing // quoting stuff done right. Too tired. Tomorrow, except it's already tomorrow technically.
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trueg0x
Profile Joined April 2010
South Africa86 Posts
June 23 2010 09:23 GMT
#92
MAN! you 1st world country people have it SO easy. I live in africa, here the minimum wage is roughly $12 a DAY! thats a whole DAYS work. The trainee position that the OP has gotten is even less than that. Wow. puts things into perspective doesnt it...
dogabutila
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States1437 Posts
June 23 2010 09:25 GMT
#93
On June 23 2010 18:07 kzn wrote:
Show nested quote +
Actually, I've done some overseas work, and they would prefer that last option. It gives them more time to spend at home.


And not enough money to buy food.


This is not an accurate assumption. It does depend on how many less hours specifically and how much the wage increase is.


Show nested quote +
The problem with all this is that IQ (as noted) does not determine job fitness. Plenty of other things do. It's more of a skills bartering market then something only related to distribution and numbers. While it /could/ be a valid way of breaking things down, it is in my opinion far too simplistic.


It doesn't matter that IQ doesn't determine job fitness. Job fitness is determined by a vast number of variables, some of which are genetic and thus randomly distributed and some of which are not, and thus cannot adequately be described by a statistical distribution.

The point I was making, far from being eugenics shit, was that no matter what you do you're going to have some people whose skills are very much in demand and thus command a very high wage, and people whose skills are common, and thus cannot command a high wage. You cant change this without changing the way genetic outcomes are distributed.


The problem with this argument is that not all jobs require the same things. Some skills are in higher demand in some fields, and some skills are necessary for others. The problem with looking at it in this flat way is the assumption that some skills will be in higher demand. Some skills MIGHT be in higher demand, but simply because there are more jobs in that field (which keeps the wage from being higher). Breaking the argument down, you have to look at the job offerings // skillsets not in one big pool, but as a bunch of little pools. So, wages rise and fall with the growth and contraction of that industry, only so long as there are not enough people to meet that need // not enough people to meet that need. It has very little to do with genetic distribution and more with what field is chosen in school // job training one has.

The point is statistics cannot give a complete picture simply BECAUSE some variables are not randomly distributed. You can't exclude information because it does not fit the model.
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Nesto
Profile Joined November 2009
Switzerland1318 Posts
June 23 2010 09:41 GMT
#94
On June 23 2010 01:44 FreshVegetables wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2010 11:04 Too_MuchZerg wrote:
On June 22 2010 11:03 FreshVegetables wrote:
On June 22 2010 11:01 Too_MuchZerg wrote:
Stop complaining about minimum wages... we don't even have that...


In Finland? Oh yes we do.


No we don't.


Well theorically you're right but in reality there's still a minimum wage here. I'm actually quite surprised that there isnt a set minimum wage here, as I have heard people talk about it before.

What i'm saying is there isn't a set minium wage by law. But as a fellow finnish man you would know that "TES - työehtosopimus"* has a minimum wage.



It's pretty much the same here. We don't have a minimum wages law yet. Most industries have a "collective employment agreement" which defines some basic employment rules in the industry (holidays, working time, minimum wages etc) and is made by employeers and unions and those agreements mostly have minimum wages somewhere around 20$/hour.

But even the worst paying full time job i can think of without such an agreement will pay you at least 15$/hour.

I'm a bit stunned that it seems to be normal in the US that your first job pays you 6-8$ ... but well, it's the US anyway.

oh and by the way, as someone metioned - last time I checked, our economy, and the ones from scandinavia weren't fucked up at all because of the high minimum wages
kzn
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1218 Posts
June 23 2010 09:49 GMT
#95
On June 23 2010 18:25 dogabutila wrote:This is not an accurate assumption. It does depend on how many less hours specifically and how much the wage increase is.


I don't believe I ever said anything about a wage increase. There is no wage increase justified merely by lowering hours worked.

The choice they are faced with, in reality, is to do a certain amount of work and get paid the amount that work is worth, or to do less work and get paid what that less work is worth (less).

The problem with this argument is that not all jobs require the same things. Some skills are in higher demand in some fields, and some skills are necessary for others. The problem with looking at it in this flat way is the assumption that some skills will be in higher demand. Some skills MIGHT be in higher demand, but simply because there are more jobs in that field (which keeps the wage from being higher). Breaking the argument down, you have to look at the job offerings // skillsets not in one big pool, but as a bunch of little pools. So, wages rise and fall with the growth and contraction of that industry, only so long as there are not enough people to meet that need // not enough people to meet that need. It has very little to do with genetic distribution and more with what field is chosen in school // job training one has.

The point is statistics cannot give a complete picture simply BECAUSE some variables are not randomly distributed. You can't exclude information because it does not fit the model.


Yes, you have to look at things are little pools rather than one massive pool, but with a world population in excess of 6 billion people, even your smallest pools are large enough that statistical analysis makes sense and can be quite accurate.
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kzn
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1218 Posts
June 23 2010 09:56 GMT
#96
On June 23 2010 18:41 Nesto wrote:oh and by the way, as someone metioned - last time I checked, our economy, and the ones from scandinavia weren't fucked up at all because of the high minimum wages


Finnish Unemployment Rate, May 2010: 10.5%
Swedish Unemployment Rate, April 2010: 9.1%
Norwegian Unemployment Rate, April 2010, 3.5%

Norway is the only one with a good unemployment rate, and the Scandinavian economies have been fucked up for 20+ years.
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hammeronetime
Profile Joined June 2008
United States64 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-23 10:01:28
June 23 2010 09:59 GMT
#97
I looked up Switzerland's unemployment and it was 3.7% and I find that highly suspect. Leads me to believe they're not recording everything. I wonder what the employment rate is specifically for people that are aged 16-22 and whether they factor in students looking for a part-time job.
kzn
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1218 Posts
June 23 2010 10:12 GMT
#98
On June 23 2010 18:59 hammeronetime wrote:
I looked up Switzerland's unemployment and it was 3.7% and I find that highly suspect. Leads me to believe they're not recording everything. I wonder what the employment rate is specifically for people that are aged 16-22 and whether they factor in students looking for a part-time job.


Unemployment surveys (in the US at least) will only count you as unemployed if you both dont have a job and have actively been looking for a job in the last week. I believe full-time students aren't counted by default, but I'm not very sure about that.
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Qwertify
Profile Joined September 2008
United States2531 Posts
June 23 2010 10:17 GMT
#99
On June 18 2010 12:31 ohIdentity wrote:
Whenever you get paid below minimum wage at a job if you don't make enough tips to put you at making = minimum wage then your employer (by law) has to make up the difference. If he doesn't then you can file charges against him and I think the minimum he has to pay you if it comes to that is like $1,100.00 per offense or something like that. I hope it helps. You don't have anything to worry about.

EDIT: I was beat to it, never mind. In other words, keep your job man. It's WAY too hard to find a job now-a-days.


He will make up the difference and then find someone you doesn't mind the pay to replace you, rather quickly.
CJ Entusman #24
hammeronetime
Profile Joined June 2008
United States64 Posts
June 23 2010 10:26 GMT
#100
He can also say you're not claiming your tips and probably even convince your co-workers to say the same. It's just not easy playing these games. Also, if you start bitching about your pay he can easily reduce your hours/give you shitty hours until you're essentially being forced to quit. If you need the job, and it's a comfortable place to work just accept it, but as someone else mentioned it may be a little premature to start worrying. If you're that unhappy just quit.
dogabutila
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States1437 Posts
June 23 2010 10:40 GMT
#101
On June 23 2010 18:49 kzn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 23 2010 18:25 dogabutila wrote:This is not an accurate assumption. It does depend on how many less hours specifically and how much the wage increase is.


I don't believe I ever said anything about a wage increase. There is no wage increase justified merely by lowering hours worked.

The choice they are faced with, in reality, is to do a certain amount of work and get paid the amount that work is worth, or to do less work and get paid what that less work is worth (less).


On June 23 2010 16:44 kzn wrote:
Show nested quote +
Are you really contending that the masses of people in India and China working below minimum wage aren't good enough workers to deserve it?


No, but I am contending that if you gave them a choice between working the jobs they work now and not working at all, or working less hours at a higher wage, they would choose to continue with what they're doing now.





Show nested quote +
The problem with this argument is that not all jobs require the same things. Some skills are in higher demand in some fields, and some skills are necessary for others. The problem with looking at it in this flat way is the assumption that some skills will be in higher demand. Some skills MIGHT be in higher demand, but simply because there are more jobs in that field (which keeps the wage from being higher). Breaking the argument down, you have to look at the job offerings // skillsets not in one big pool, but as a bunch of little pools. So, wages rise and fall with the growth and contraction of that industry, only so long as there are not enough people to meet that need // not enough people to meet that need. It has very little to do with genetic distribution and more with what field is chosen in school // job training one has.

The point is statistics cannot give a complete picture simply BECAUSE some variables are not randomly distributed. You can't exclude information because it does not fit the model.


Yes, you have to look at things are little pools rather than one massive pool, but with a world population in excess of 6 billion people, even your smallest pools are large enough that statistical analysis makes sense and can be quite accurate.


Again; not quite. because as you did mention... There are some variables that are not random

On June 23 2010 18:07 kzn wrote:
It doesn't matter that IQ doesn't determine job fitness. Job fitness is determined by a vast number of variables, some of which are genetic and thus randomly distributed and some of which are not, and thus cannot adequately be described by a statistical distribution.


One might also say that since the pool is so large, it becomes impossible to control for all variables and still have a statistically significant answer.

Needless to say, even though each little pool is separate actions and events in one area or industry have an effect in others. So too for countries.


The point is that minimum wage is not bad necessarily because it gives some 'undeserving' people a wage higher then what might be market value, the true harm in a minimum wage is that it requires the people to be consumers and not producers. A minimum wage strictly hampers industry and manufacturing. When your country is so reliant on others to keep producing things for you, if they are no longer able to then you are seriously fucked.
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dogabutila
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States1437 Posts
June 23 2010 10:42 GMT
#102
On June 23 2010 19:12 kzn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 23 2010 18:59 hammeronetime wrote:
I looked up Switzerland's unemployment and it was 3.7% and I find that highly suspect. Leads me to believe they're not recording everything. I wonder what the employment rate is specifically for people that are aged 16-22 and whether they factor in students looking for a part-time job.


Unemployment surveys (in the US at least) will only count you as unemployed if you both dont have a job and have actively been looking for a job in the last week. I believe full-time students aren't counted by default, but I'm not very sure about that.


Full time students generally are not counted.


The funny thing is (barring census stuff), 'unemployment numbers' have been dropping even though there are the same numbers of people without jobs because many of them have given up.
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tertle
Profile Joined February 2010
Australia328 Posts
June 23 2010 12:21 GMT
#103
On June 18 2010 14:12 ~ava wrote:
In Australia:

"The federal minimum wage is currently $14.31 per hour or $543.78 per 38 hour week (before tax). Casual employees covered by the federal minimum wage also get at least a 20 per cent casual loading. "

1 USD = 0.868 AUD so minimum wage is $12.42


Wage is being updated July 1st actually, slight increase.

As of July 1st

Minimum wage for someone 20 years and above is:
$14.82 (~$13US) for full or part time employment
$19.52 (~$17US) for casual employment

...

16 years old is:
$8.24 (~$7.20US) for full or part time employment
$10.84 (~$9.50US) for casual employment

Under 16 years old:
$8.07 (~$7US) for full or part time employment
$10.63 (~$9.30US) for casual employment

Incremental wage increases for every year between 16 and 20
MasterFischer
Profile Joined August 2009
Denmark836 Posts
June 23 2010 12:32 GMT
#104
Minimum wage in my country is around 18 dollars.
WHO is this who speaks to me as though I needed his advice?
VegeTerran
Profile Joined August 2008
Sweden214 Posts
June 23 2010 13:01 GMT
#105
Since some people seem to think it's a good idea to lower the minimum wage, I'll shamelessly paste what Paul Krugman has to say on the subject
"Would cutting the minimum wage raise employment?"
+ Show Spoiler +
It seems that more and more Serious People (and Fox News) are rallying around the idea that if Obama really wants to create jobs, he should cut the minimum wage.

So let me repeat a point I made a number of times back when the usual suspects were declaring that FDR prolonged the Depression by raising wages: the belief that lower wages would raise overall employment rests on a fallacy of composition. In reality, reducing wages would at best do nothing for employment; more likely it would actually be contractionary.

Here’s how the fallacy works: if some subset of the work force accepts lower wages, it can gain jobs. If workers in the widget industry take a pay cut, this will lead to lower prices of widgets relative to other things, so people will buy more widgets, hence more employment.

But if everyone takes a pay cut, that logic no longer applies. The only way a general cut in wages can increase employment is if it leads people to buy more across the board. And why should it do that?

Well, the textbook argument — illustrated in this little writeup — runs like this: lower wages lead to a lower overall price level. This increases the real money supply, and therefore liquidity. As people try to make use of their excess liquidity, interest rates go down, leading to an overall rise in demand.

Even in this case, it’s hard to see the point of cutting wages: you could achieve the same effect, much more easily, simply by having the Fed increase the money supply.

But what if we’re in a liquidity trap, with short-run interest rates at zero? Then the Fed can’t achieve anything by increasing the money supply; but by the same token, wage cuts do nothing to increase demand.*

Wait, it gets worse. A falling price level raises the real value of debt. To the extent that debtors are more likely to cut spending in such a case than creditors are to increase it — which seems likely — the effect of the wage cuts will actually be a fall in demand.

And one more thing: to the extent that people expect further declines in wages and prices, this raises real interest rates, which is even more contractionary.

So proposing wage cuts as a solution to unemployment is a totally counterproductive idea. Not that I expect any of this discussion to make any impact on those proposing it.

* Somebody is going to ask, what about the real balance effect? Doesn’t a falling price level make people wealthy, by raising the real value of the money they hold. The answer is, consider the magnitudes. Before the crisis, the monetary base — the system’s “outside money” — was around $800 billion. (It’s a much more confusing situation now, so I won’t try to parse the current numbers here). This means that even a 10 percent fall in the price level, which is very hard to achieve, would raise real wealth by only $80 billion. Compare this with the effects of the decline in housing and stock prices, which reduced household wealth by $13 trillion in 2008. The real balance effect is totally trivial.
Mylin
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Sweden177 Posts
June 23 2010 13:21 GMT
#106
On June 23 2010 22:01 VegeTerran wrote:
Since some people seem to think it's a good idea to lower the minimum wage, I'll shamelessly paste what Paul Krugman has to say on the subject
"Would cutting the minimum wage raise employment?"
+ Show Spoiler +
It seems that more and more Serious People (and Fox News) are rallying around the idea that if Obama really wants to create jobs, he should cut the minimum wage.

So let me repeat a point I made a number of times back when the usual suspects were declaring that FDR prolonged the Depression by raising wages: the belief that lower wages would raise overall employment rests on a fallacy of composition. In reality, reducing wages would at best do nothing for employment; more likely it would actually be contractionary.

Here’s how the fallacy works: if some subset of the work force accepts lower wages, it can gain jobs. If workers in the widget industry take a pay cut, this will lead to lower prices of widgets relative to other things, so people will buy more widgets, hence more employment.

But if everyone takes a pay cut, that logic no longer applies. The only way a general cut in wages can increase employment is if it leads people to buy more across the board. And why should it do that?

Well, the textbook argument — illustrated in this little writeup — runs like this: lower wages lead to a lower overall price level. This increases the real money supply, and therefore liquidity. As people try to make use of their excess liquidity, interest rates go down, leading to an overall rise in demand.

Even in this case, it’s hard to see the point of cutting wages: you could achieve the same effect, much more easily, simply by having the Fed increase the money supply.

But what if we’re in a liquidity trap, with short-run interest rates at zero? Then the Fed can’t achieve anything by increasing the money supply; but by the same token, wage cuts do nothing to increase demand.*

Wait, it gets worse. A falling price level raises the real value of debt. To the extent that debtors are more likely to cut spending in such a case than creditors are to increase it — which seems likely — the effect of the wage cuts will actually be a fall in demand.

And one more thing: to the extent that people expect further declines in wages and prices, this raises real interest rates, which is even more contractionary.

So proposing wage cuts as a solution to unemployment is a totally counterproductive idea. Not that I expect any of this discussion to make any impact on those proposing it.

* Somebody is going to ask, what about the real balance effect? Doesn’t a falling price level make people wealthy, by raising the real value of the money they hold. The answer is, consider the magnitudes. Before the crisis, the monetary base — the system’s “outside money” — was around $800 billion. (It’s a much more confusing situation now, so I won’t try to parse the current numbers here). This means that even a 10 percent fall in the price level, which is very hard to achieve, would raise real wealth by only $80 billion. Compare this with the effects of the decline in housing and stock prices, which reduced household wealth by $13 trillion in 2008. The real balance effect is totally trivial.


Well you can probably find some other Nobel Prize winner that doesn't agree with Krugman at all though (he is afterall a fairly "european" in his views).

But then again thats why I absolutely love macroeconomics =)
no
tryummm
Profile Joined August 2009
774 Posts
June 23 2010 17:56 GMT
#107
Why would you even work for $6.50 an hour if you don't even like the job? Do you really want to wash dishes anyways if your not delivering?
hammeronetime
Profile Joined June 2008
United States64 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-23 18:16:56
June 23 2010 18:15 GMT
#108
Here is a good write-up on the ridiculousness of raising minimum wage:
http://cafehayek.com/2010/04/an-entrepreneur-and-the-minimum-wage.html

Maybe it really is different in Australia or Denmark, but in the United States many businesses rely on cheap (not the best word) labor or they don't exist. If minimum wage does rise too high, the owners will eat the rise in expense to a point, but what will happen next is hours will get reduced, people will get fired, or the owner will just start paying people under the table making the rise in minimum wage pointless.
Sadist
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States7290 Posts
June 23 2010 18:55 GMT
#109
On June 24 2010 03:15 hammeronetime wrote:
Here is a good write-up on the ridiculousness of raising minimum wage:
http://cafehayek.com/2010/04/an-entrepreneur-and-the-minimum-wage.html

Maybe it really is different in Australia or Denmark, but in the United States many businesses rely on cheap (not the best word) labor or they don't exist. If minimum wage does rise too high, the owners will eat the rise in expense to a point, but what will happen next is hours will get reduced, people will get fired, or the owner will just start paying people under the table making the rise in minimum wage pointless.



Ya because the owner is a greedy SOB who wont take a slight cut in their pay. This whole discussion can be summed up as people who are well off will absolutely not take even the slightest cut in their pay. Instead they will pass the costs on to someone else.
How do you go from where you are to where you want to be? I think you have to have an enthusiasm for life. You have to have a dream, a goal and you have to be willing to work for it. Jim Valvano
Yurebis
Profile Joined January 2009
United States1452 Posts
June 23 2010 19:10 GMT
#110
Minimum wage law is just a restriction. It doesn't say an employer has to hire someone for a higher wage, it just says the employer cannot hire someone below the rate. At the very least, those employees who aren't valued higher than the minimum, are never going to be employed (legally).

In fact, it might drive those "illegal workers" wages down further, because the employer is burdened with a legal liability, and therefore have to either pay less or get more from them to account for that additional risk of fines and/or imprisonment.

Sure you can say that someone who would be borderline below the minimum rate can benefit from the little stick they have, and get a higher wage without working any harder, but even then, you've got to understand that in the market, everything comes from somewhere. That extra money given to the minimum wage worker is taken from the consumer... in the form of higher prices.

I see Krugman's argument as a non-sequitur... people against a minimum wage aren't necessarily for wage cuts, so every consequence thereof is irrelevant. I'm not for anything but against restrictions on people's wallets. I'm not one to tell what should or should not other people do with their money, and I disrespect any macro-economist who believes he can make the world a better place by restricting people's economical choices.

For all I care, it could be the case that when the minimum wage is abolished, wages could go higher, as the employers aren't burdened with as many bureaucratic forms and procedures, and can either cut prices or raise wages with their liberated resources. Who knows. Point is, regulations can't build anything, they can only inhibit...
Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
June 23 2010 19:21 GMT
#111
I believe minimum wage in California for people being tipped is something around ~$2.20, give or take twenty cents. That's what they pay at anywhere classy such as the Ritz Carlton. Because you make $30 in tips on a single table!
hammeronetime
Profile Joined June 2008
United States64 Posts
June 23 2010 19:51 GMT
#112
On June 24 2010 03:55 Sadist wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 24 2010 03:15 hammeronetime wrote:
Here is a good write-up on the ridiculousness of raising minimum wage:
http://cafehayek.com/2010/04/an-entrepreneur-and-the-minimum-wage.html

Maybe it really is different in Australia or Denmark, but in the United States many businesses rely on cheap (not the best word) labor or they don't exist. If minimum wage does rise too high, the owners will eat the rise in expense to a point, but what will happen next is hours will get reduced, people will get fired, or the owner will just start paying people under the table making the rise in minimum wage pointless.



Ya because the owner is a greedy SOB who wont take a slight cut in their pay. This whole discussion can be summed up as people who are well off will absolutely not take even the slightest cut in their pay. Instead they will pass the costs on to someone else.


He is greedy because he won't take a cut in pay? How do you know he hasn't? How much do you think he makes? Not everyone who owns a business is making 6 figures, drives a sports car, and lives in a mansion. Owners are usually the first person to take a pay cut, and then they start scaling back operations - cutting labor costs.
unkkz
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Norway2196 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-23 23:16:34
June 23 2010 23:15 GMT
#113
Wow that's really low. Used to work as a cashier in a supermarket here in Norway, it's like the shittiest job you can get apart from cleaning toilets, and i made 20,2 dollars an hour when i convert it. Making slitghly less then that atm(19,5) working in a sports store but its a way way better working environment and job in general so dont really mind.

But damn thats low.
TurbulentTurtle
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada230 Posts
June 24 2010 01:40 GMT
#114
This is how the other half lives.
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
June 24 2010 06:18 GMT
#115
On June 24 2010 08:15 unkkz wrote:
Wow that's really low. Used to work as a cashier in a supermarket here in Norway, it's like the shittiest job you can get apart from cleaning toilets, and i made 20,2 dollars an hour when i convert it. Making slitghly less then that atm(19,5) working in a sports store but its a way way better working environment and job in general so dont really mind.

But damn thats low.


But how much of your pay disappears in taxes compared to ours...
waffling1
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
599 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-24 06:20:35
June 24 2010 06:20 GMT
#116
don't worry about 6.50 being low.

the FED is making sure all your dollars are worth less and less every second.
kzn
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1218 Posts
June 24 2010 06:50 GMT
#117
On June 24 2010 15:18 FabledIntegral wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 24 2010 08:15 unkkz wrote:
Wow that's really low. Used to work as a cashier in a supermarket here in Norway, it's like the shittiest job you can get apart from cleaning toilets, and i made 20,2 dollars an hour when i convert it. Making slitghly less then that atm(19,5) working in a sports store but its a way way better working environment and job in general so dont really mind.

But damn thats low.


But how much of your pay disappears in taxes compared to ours...


About half of it, over the entire economy.

Probably less for lower earners.
Like a G6
Escoffier
Profile Joined May 2010
United States120 Posts
June 24 2010 09:32 GMT
#118
On June 24 2010 15:50 kzn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 24 2010 15:18 FabledIntegral wrote:
On June 24 2010 08:15 unkkz wrote:
Wow that's really low. Used to work as a cashier in a supermarket here in Norway, it's like the shittiest job you can get apart from cleaning toilets, and i made 20,2 dollars an hour when i convert it. Making slitghly less then that atm(19,5) working in a sports store but its a way way better working environment and job in general so dont really mind.

But damn thats low.


But how much of your pay disappears in taxes compared to ours...


About half of it, over the entire economy.

Probably less for lower earners.


and how much free shit does the norwegian government give you
VegeTerran
Profile Joined August 2008
Sweden214 Posts
June 24 2010 10:51 GMT
#119
You don't pay 50% taxes in norway, if you're a swede working in norway you normally end up paying 20-25% in taxes. Norweigans pay around 35% in taxes.
kzn
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1218 Posts
June 24 2010 15:02 GMT
#120
On June 24 2010 18:32 Escoffier wrote:and how much free shit does the norwegian government give you


Less shit than you'd get if you were able to spend all of that money yourself.

You don't pay 50% taxes in norway, if you're a swede working in norway you normally end up paying 20-25% in taxes. Norweigans pay around 35% in taxes.


You have close to 50% of your GDP generated by government activity. No matter how you argue it, there are only two ways this is possible:

1. Your government is borrowing ridiculous sums of money every year (which isn't happening in Norway, afaik).

2. Taxes take in roughly half of all income earned by that economy.

You might not be paying 50% income taxes, but half of your income is going to the government somehow.
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