EPTMaybe some of you think along Helen Thomas lines and that Jews should "go back where they came from." They never would have left where they came from if it wasn't for the Holocaust. I think Israel is justified if they attack Iran in a preemptive fashion, because it may be the only way to prevent being nuked.
Saudi Arabia gives Israel clear skies to attack Iran - Pag…
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TheMaleficOne
United States12 Posts
Maybe some of you think along Helen Thomas lines and that Jews should "go back where they came from." They never would have left where they came from if it wasn't for the Holocaust. I think Israel is justified if they attack Iran in a preemptive fashion, because it may be the only way to prevent being nuked. | ||
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angelicfolly
United States292 Posts
On June 13 2010 05:58 EtherealDeath wrote: Nice book recommendation, reviews seem to indicate it's a pretty good book too. Just placed an order  Reviews are misleading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Israel_Lobby_and_U.S._Foreign_Policy#Criticism | ||
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Roman
United States2595 Posts
On June 13 2010 05:55 GiantEnemyCrab wrote: imo 2 possiblities - either iran didnt cooperate fully with the saudis about leting them drill a oil pipe to their reserves and that iran is doing what usa wants it to do with the nuclear material by converting em to rods so there is no way they can make em into nukes - other is that its a trap and they wanna fuck over israil LOL either way saudis wanna fuck some1 ignorance, certainly not a trap, a majority of countries in the middle east are quietly trying to help america/israel to stop iran from getting a nuke. PS: nukes are good for the world, they have prevented sooo many wars. | ||
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angelicfolly
United States292 Posts
On June 13 2010 06:05 cwc)DeRan( wrote: I'm glad at least one person thinks the same as me. Weapons, violence and war won't ever cause anything good or related with peace (fight war to get peace is so ironical, ignorantly blind to believe such things). However sadly this is only a wish and dream of mine, though i believe time will come and revolution will bring true changes In order to have peace in ww2 you had to fight. The direct result of fighting saved MANY lives in concentration camps. These a saying that if your not willing to fight for your beliefs then those beliefs are not worth having. | ||
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ArKaDo
France121 Posts
There is no bad meaning behind my words, stop feeling so agressed. What I don't understand is: yes maybe Saudis (king i think) are USA's allies, but their population is deeply pro palestinian like all the population in this area (I think ? except israel of course). Will the saudis accept this statement ? You're so neutral, your mom calls you a wikipedia article. You read only read news in hebrew so you should not taunt about neutrality or anything else. | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
Honestly tho I think that Ahmadinejad wants to get attacked since he has a very very low approval rating and if they got attacked it would unite everyone behind him. I think this is the reason for the crazy shit he keeps saying. | ||
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Sabu113
United States11035 Posts
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angelicfolly
United States292 Posts
It could be between five to ten years before Iran has a nuke if not sooner. You really need to be pro-active on these events or they spiral out of control. Look at WW2 for this, just about everyone let Germany break the treaties it was supposed to keep, and paid dearly for it. Honestly tho I think that Ahmadinejad wants to get attacked since he has a very very low approval rating and if they got attacked it would unite everyone behind him. I think this is the reason for the crazy shit he keeps saying. I really don't think they are thinking this, it may be a by-product of attacking. He and his government has already killed people who protest over they're rule so I really don't think he has that much thinking power to realize that. Ahmadinejad not the one really in power anyway, more of a spokesperson. | ||
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cwc)DeRan(
Austria158 Posts
On June 13 2010 06:09 angelicfolly wrote: In order to have peace in ww2 you had to fight. The direct result of fighting saved MANY lives in concentration camps. These a saying that if your not willing to fight for your beliefs then those beliefs are not worth having. but who determines if those beliefs are right or wrong? The US government? (expect ww2, which of course was something completely different than nowadays issues) The US government aren't policemen or the court of the world, they don't fight wars and impose sanctions to bring peace and safety, they do it for selfish profit, like everything or everyone is based on profit. | ||
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angelicfolly
United States292 Posts
On June 13 2010 06:16 cwc)DeRan( wrote: but who determines if those beliefs are right or wrong? The US government? (expect ww2, which of course was something completely different than nowadays issues) The US government aren't policemen or the court of the world, they don't fight wars and impose sanctions to bring peace and safety, they do it for selfish profit, like everything or everyone is based on profit. Wither your beliefs are right or wrong wasn't the issue with the saying, If those beliefs are not important enough to defend them then they where not that important anyway (Good/bad beliefs are not the issue). WW2 is a exact example of why war can be good. I'm not debating the merits of US interest not the point of the saying. | ||
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ArKaDo
France121 Posts
On June 13 2010 06:21 angelicfolly wrote: Wither your beliefs are right or wrong wasn't the issue with the saying, If those beliefs are not important enough to defend them then they where not that important anyway (Good/bad beliefs are not the issue). WW2 is a exact example of why war can be good. I'm not debating the merits of US interest not the point of the saying. WW2 is the great exemple why war can't be good. WW2 is only the repercussion of the indecent will of the winner (France in the lead) of WW1. After the great war, they wanted to crush germany down accusing them of all the shit that happen during 1914-1918 when everybody knows that France wanted the war almost as much (if not more) than germany. | ||
Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On June 13 2010 06:21 angelicfolly wrote: Wither your beliefs are right or wrong wasn't the issue with the saying, If those beliefs are not important enough to defend them then they where not that important anyway (Good/bad beliefs are not the issue). WW2 is a exact example of why war can be good. I'm not debating the merits of US interest not the point of the saying. Entering a war and pre-emptive war are two different things. WW1 was a case of countries entering war for the sake of being the first one to enter the war, and it was the worst mess of the 20th century. All 3 countries are rational actors, and it's extremely unlikely that Iran would ever use a nuclear weapon in that fashion. There's plenty of other reasons to strive for nuclear weapons besides actually expecting to use them. Saudi Arabia is concerned about their own stability and role in the region. And that AIPAC book is awful. Mearsheimer and Walt were totally out of their element. | ||
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brain_
United States812 Posts
On June 13 2010 03:04 Ploppytheman wrote:At least he isn't some pussy who sits around blaming America for actually doing something when we all know Canada would be royally fucked if America didn't do all the things it does. You think Canada could exist w/o America? Do you realize almost your entire population is off the border of America? You think America is bad? We stopped Facism and Communism, you think lol mounted royal police are going to stop panzer divisions or japanese carriers? The nuke saved Americans lives against an aggressor that would otherwise take years and money and lives to end. The Japanese were insane, they kamikazee and suicide, jump off cliffs, think the emperor is God, did all sorts of sick torture to civillians (raping of nanking rite?) and DIDNT SURRENDER ON THE FIRST NUKE!!! Do you understand that? THEY DIDNT SURRENDER WHEN ONE OF THEIR MAJOR CITIES GOT NUKED. Meaning it took more than a nuke to get them to surrender. Canada is almost as bad ad France holy crap. User was temp banned for this post. Oh man this post had me rollin'. I love it when somebody tells it how it is (then gets banned for it  ). The best part was Mounties vs Panzer divisions.PS: Iran is a repressive theocracy. Allowing them to have the most destructive weapons in the history of the world does not seem like a wise choice. Especially when they are already using many of the weapons in their disposal to kill Israeli citizens, and formerly American soldiers in Iraq... On June 13 2010 06:09 angelicfolly wrote: In order to have peace in ww2 you had to fight. The direct result of fighting saved MANY lives in concentration camps. These a saying that if your not willing to fight for your beliefs then those beliefs are not worth having. "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On June 13 2010 06:05 TheMaleficOne wrote: First of all, Iran has consistently denied that it is making nuclear weapons ie. "using nuclear power for peaceful purposes." Everyone knows that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a crazy USA hating dictator, and I believe should NOT have nuclear weapons under any circumstances. He sees the complete and utter destruction of Israel as the only end game, and will lie or do anything else to achieve this end. Maybe some of you think along Helen Thomas lines and that Jews should "go back where they came from." They never would have left where they came from if it wasn't for the Holocaust. I think Israel is justified if they attack Iran in a preemptive fashion, because it may be the only way to prevent being nuked. Right.. so you know nothing about the Middle East. Ahmadinejad is a democratically elected populist, with fairly little power. And no one is planning on wiping Israel off the map. It's a bad translation of farsi. | ||
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angelicfolly
United States292 Posts
What? I can't understand half of that. Germany Nazi wanted to create a superior race disparaging everyone else. People where put into concentration camps (NOT just Jews) to be killed because they didn't fit that superior race. The repercussion of ww1 allowed Hitler into place, that DOESN'T excuse the actions of later, that's also besides the point of personal vendettas. You are one of the few to ever say ww2 isn't a "good" war. Jibba, I wasn't talking about ww1 so I don't understand why you quoted me? | ||
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EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
On June 13 2010 06:06 angelicfolly wrote: Reviews are misleading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Israel_Lobby_and_U.S._Foreign_Policy#Criticism The criticism from scholars is interesting - there are sources of criticism that I wouldn't normally expect. I honestly don't put much weight into criticisms by politicians of it not reflecting what they experienced in person, because american politicians have been known to mislead the public even decades after the relevant actions are done. The response by Woolsey [ http://www.theaugeanstables.com/2007/12/13/woolsey-on-waltmearsheimerwelcome-to-wamworld/print/ ] is interesting however, since it actually points out events instead of just being a rebuttal with no backing evidence. All this criticism for a prominent article (rebuttal was made as well by the authors: http://www.wcfia.harvard.edu/node/3639 though I have yet to read it) really makes me want to read it more, due to how it seems in America these days any open criticism of Israel gets labeled as anti-Semitic. I'm sure there will be biases and misrepresentations which I will need to catch, upon more detailed research. The authors admitted in the rebuttal that there were things they should have clarified better, and which they should have represented differently. It's obvious that the "Zionist lobby" is not all powerful; if it were, Israel wouldn't be worried that it might be falling out of favor with the US. It certainly has an influence however, and I would imagine it may have influenced US policy like so many other lobbies. If you have any better sources that go into this subject in detail, I'd love to know about them. | ||
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angelicfolly
United States292 Posts
Right.. so you know nothing about the Middle East. Ahmadinejad is a democratically elected populist, with fairly little power. And no one is planning on wiping Israel off the map. It's a bad translation of farsi. He was NOT elected democratically, why do you think there was violence recently? He doesn't want to wipe Israel off, but wants to wipe the government off. Ok, but that's also added to all the stupid crap he keeps pulling. No holocaust anyone? | ||
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brain_
United States812 Posts
On June 13 2010 06:29 Jibba wrote: Right.. so you know nothing about the Middle East. Ahmadinejad is a democratically elected populist, with fairly little power. And no one is planning on wiping Israel off the map. It's a bad translation of farsi. His statements have been far too consistent and incendiary to be "a bad translation". He has called them "bacteria", or "parasite", and/or said they should be destroyed on HUNDREDS of occasions. Also, his beliefs reflect those of the reactionary mullahs who actually control the country- otherwise they wouldn't have rigged the elections and repressed citizens to keep him in power. | ||
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angelicfolly
United States292 Posts
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ArKaDo
France121 Posts
On June 13 2010 06:30 angelicfolly wrote: Arkado, What? I can't understand half of that. Germany Nazi wanted to create a superior race disparaging everyone else. People where put into concentration camps (NOT just Jews) to be killed because they didn't fit that superior race. The repercussion of ww1 allowed Hitler into place, that DOESN'T excuse the actions of later, that's also besides the point of personal vendettas. You are one of the few to ever say ww2 isn't a "good" war. Jibba, I wasn't talking about ww1 so I don't understand why you quoted me? Yes but you cannot understand the rise of the nazi (especially in germany were, in the history, the jews were really well accepted by the population) without understanding how the winner of WW1 humiliated the german by asking them to pay a big tribute. "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." That's one of the most moronic statement I have ever see. It must come from the bible or the coran, I'm sure of it. | ||
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