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On April 06 2010 01:48 Aim Here wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 01:31 Hawk wrote:
around 3:30, you first see the camera men. around 5:00 most of the shooting is done. aorund 10, unmarked van comes to pick up wounded and is shot at, after clearance.
Unless I'm missing something I really don't see what the outrage is.
Because normally, when people arrive at a scene of carnage, and try to use their transport to take the wounded to hospital, it's considered outrageous to gun them down and all the occupants of their vehicle. If that has passed you by, you really ARE missing something. Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 01:31 Hawk wrote:
Really, this whole thing is fucking absurd
Am I supposed to be pissed that troops got authorization to open fire on what they thought were targets? You can't tell those are cameras that they are carrying from a couple hundred feet away Yet the helicopter crew specifically identified those things as 'AK47s and RPGs'. Clearly they were lying about the positive identification to get clearance to kill those people. They were obviously itching to kill those guys, as evidenced by them pleading for the injured cameraman to pick up a weapon so they could kill him. You didn't get any sense of how trigger-happy that crew was from the video at all?
Groundtroops were coming in when the van arrived, and that's a potential threat... so yeah. That van wasn't marked with a giant cross or as ambulance. It could have been anything in there.
and the weapons. @3:24 is the best view of both the journalists. They both have their cameras straps on their shouldres, camera at side. This is pretty damn similar to having an AK with a shoulderstrap on your side. Him throwing it up on his shoulder to shoot looks an awful lot like an RPG. And as a couple have said, you can't see SHIT for what it is, and any soldier in any army in the world is going to err on the side of caution and call that a weapon and will get clearance from an CO.
As I said before, trigger happy doesn't mean shit. They followed protocol. Having to deal with killing people all day isn't gonna exactly make you a ball of sunshine or something... should our soldiers be weeping like menstrating women every time they discharge a round? Jesus.
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On April 06 2010 01:56 majohanimo wrote:
What I find the most inreresting, are the incredible comments by the soldiers. I understand, that you have to get into a state, where you can emotionally distance yourself from your actions, but enjoying them like this makes me fucking angry. And FFS, if you can't tell those are cameras, you can't tell those are weapons too...
And why the hell are they even shooting the van?
Uh look I hate to break it to you but high stress environments (LIKE SAY A WAR) tend to do some amazing things to your perception.
Until you experience it for yourself you have absolutely no idea what the hell you are talking about. If it came down to it in a war scenario, or a scenario where my life is in danger. 'it might be a gun' is justification to fire. It's justification in war, and it's even justified according to the Constitution.
Now I personally don't know the mental state of those soldiers but for a lot of people acting like that is a coping mechanism. They deal and see a lot of shit that most people couldn't stomach and they have to find some way to deal with it. Seeing dead people all day, shooting people, seeing abused children...people in these types of jobs have to find a way to cope or go insane.
Police officers and Fireman are also guilty of this. Do you know how often you catch news camera's pan to the police officer laughing at the scene of a triple murder with his buddies and it causes a public outrage that the police, "don't care!" They care, or they wouldn't be doing their job.
In the end do not ever underestimate what high stress does to a person and their perception. Hell I've thought the shell coming from my pistol was a COKE CAN because it simply looked that freaking big to me. I could read the serial number on the bottom of it, something that would normally be absolutely impossible. Stress will fuck with you beyond anything you would believe.
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On April 06 2010 02:13 KinosJourney2 wrote:
US is a fucked up country in my opinion, thinking they are some world police and are worth more then other people.
Really, what makes them think they can invade another country just cause they 'assume' they have nuclear weapons. Maybe im not the right one to say such a thing but US keeps doing stupid stuff.
They knew very well that there weren't any nuclear weapons, that's just to scare the population with words it understands (Nuclear = Badddd). They forged documents and used intel that was known to be false by every other intelligence agency in the world. The governing class wanted Iraq, they just needed to convince their slaves that it was a good thing to send out their youth to some shitty middle eastern desert country to murder everything in sight. They made sure their lies would loop on mainstream news for a couple of weeks and VOILA you have a large % of the population (whose education you've controlled, in order to make them oblivious to reason, knowledge, critical thinking and compassion for non-Americans) ready to send their kids to war. Most of these soldiers have never stepped out of the country before, they're young idiots w/ warped views coming from their controlled education. To them, this is like shooting animals, it's like a fucking video game, they could coldly murder a defenseless child and have a laugh about it minutes after.
Wouldnt personally go murder their families like that other poster, but would find it awfully good if the US would suffer some sort of event that'd kill as many Americans as they killed Iraqi civilians (karma is a bitch). Not taking the decisions doesn't take all responsability away from you, even though that's what the army would like it's cannonfodder to think. Even the idle American couch potato is responsible for letting this happen. If you guys are so free and such an amazing beacon of democracy, why can't you vote for anyone else than the 2 establishment-controlled candidates?
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On April 06 2010 02:07 wishbones wrote:
edited, seriously kill those guys involved imo, americans are real stupid.
LOL, please keep the discussion on the topic at hand. I dont understand why Canadians of all people bash americans. My brother and 3 of my best friends are in the army. After watching the video it is very clear that nothing was done wrong here. It does suck that there was collateral damage. From the video i'm watching it looks like there are weapons down there. I am not sure about the RPG but def looks like AK's. They asked for the order to open fire and thats what they did. They were on a mission, they engaged the targets with permission and they took them out. You don't back off either after you open fire just FYI, on why would they fire again. You confirm your target is dead. When the van pulls up very quickly to the scene they are just asking for trouble. That is exactly something insurgents would do in order to rescue anyone from their regime that might be important. They got the clearance and they took out the van plain and simple. It was an fucking unmarked van with your team moving in to take pictures of the aftermath. There is no way in hell they are moving in there with a van in the vicinity.
All you cock suckers that say you want to kill American soldiers and their families, please please come pay me a visit you fucking pile of shit. Ill throw you right off a bridge. They didn't make the decision to move in there, US government did. They are just doing their job, and it so happens to be during a war.
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ARE YOU ALL FUCKING RETARDED, HOW DID THIS END UP EACH OF YOU WANTING TO MURDER EACH OTHER FOR VARIOUS RETARDED REASONS.
That really completely misses the point of this. Ugh.
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United States42689 Posts
On April 06 2010 01:47 Puosu wrote:
"Look at all those dead bastards."
"YEAH." "Oh please let me shoot."
"Haha I think they just drove over a body."
What the fuck.. how do such mentally ill fuckers get that kind of power to just go shoot around in a god damn helicopter?
Because sane men don't join up as grunts? Until you improve the pay and conditions of servicemen you will be scraping the bottom of the barrel and the results will be predictable. It's true of all actively functioning armies.
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United States42689 Posts
On April 06 2010 02:24 reit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 02:13 KinosJourney2 wrote:
US is a fucked up country in my opinion, thinking they are some world police and are worth more then other people.
Really, what makes them think they can invade another country just cause they 'assume' they have nuclear weapons. Maybe im not the right one to say such a thing but US keeps doing stupid stuff. They knew very well that there weren't any nuclear weapons, that's just to scare the population with words it understands (Nuclear = Badddd). They forged documents and used intel that was known to be false by every other intelligence agency in the world. The governing class wanted Iraq, they just needed to convince their slaves that it was a good thing to send out their youth to some shitty middle eastern desert country to murder everything in sight. They made sure their lies would loop on mainstream news for a couple of weeks and VOILA you have a large % of the population (whose education you've controlled, in order to make them oblivious to reason, knowledge, critical thinking and compassion for non-Americans) ready to send their kids to war. Most of these soldiers have never stepped out of the country before, they're young idiots w/ warped views coming from their controlled education. To them, this is like shooting animals, it's like a fucking video game, they could coldly murder a defenseless child and have a laugh about it minutes after. Wouldnt personally go murder their families like that other poster, but would find it awfully good if the US would suffer some sort of event that'd kill as many Americans as they killed Iraqi civilians (karma is a bitch). Not taking the decisions doesn't take all responsability away from you, even though that's what the army would like it's cannonfodder to think. Even the idle American couch potato is responsible for letting this happen. If you guys are so free and such an amazing beacon of democracy, why can't you vote for anyone else than the 2 establishment-controlled candidates?
lol
r u srs?
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Even if those civilians were carrying weapons why are they trying to shoot them ?
I mean the 2nd amendment enumerates the right to keep and bear arms.
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America will always be portrayed as the big bully until people cry for help. These guys deal with IED's and a variety of gorilla tactics everyday. It's a high stress job that I doubt many can deal with. eh..hard to tell the bad guys when they don't wear uniforms.
Im done this isnt news worthy.
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
On April 06 2010 02:13 Hawk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 01:59 Mystlord wrote:On April 06 2010 01:48 Hawk wrote:On April 06 2010 01:42 Railz wrote:On April 06 2010 01:31 Hawk wrote:
I'm currently watching some now. You need to really highlight the important parts, because a lot of it doesn't seem too relevant...
around 3:30, you first see the camera men. around 5:00 most of the shooting is done. aorund 10, unmarked van comes to pick up wounded and is shot at, after clearance.
Unless I'm missing something I really don't see what the outrage is. Am I supposed to be pissed that troops got authorization to open fire on what they thought were targets? You can't tell those are cameras that they are carrying from a couple hundred feet away The problem is they didn't want a verification process at all. They said they had Bushmasters in the area and the gunner was acting really estranged, trigger happy. Even from that range, and poor youtube quality you could see that wasn't an AK47 and that couldn't be an RPG by the way he was carrying it, it isn't that light. The guy being trigger happy has absolutely no bearing on it at all. He ultimately got clearance. That's all he needs. From that distance, you can't be sure at all what he's carrying, and it sure as shit looks like some kind of weapon. The part at 16:00 where they super zoom to the truck and try to make it like the two objects in the van look are clearly distinguishable as children is fucking stupid. I don't agree with the war at all in the slightest bit, but I'm sorry, this is nothing more than rueters playing victim here and trying to make the Americans look like they did something wrong here. They got clearance to fire on a questionable target. There is no way at all to verify that there was children in the van. Everything checks out here and it's an unfortunate circumstance. Anyone who says otherwise isn't even trying to be objective On April 06 2010 01:48 Mystlord wrote:
Ugh. Even with all of our modern technology we can't differentiate a mic and a video camera from an AK-47 and a RPG? That's messed up.
Either that or those soldiers can't differentiate between the two. At the very least I can't. Video's too blurry. Yeah that's what I'm trying to say. It sucks, but you can't see, and it's war.... they did the right thing here. You don't wait until there's a fucking rpg coming at the chopper windshield to return fire. I think the trigger happiness is a problem. We can't have troops in war situations wanting to kill. However, your point about the RPG does stand. However, I wouldn't say the Apache was in imminent danger, simply because it seemed like it was really, really far away from the "targets", and RPGs aren't exactly the most reliable weapons at long range... Another problem occurs when you realize that this is merely a video of one incident of many. If other incidents like these are caused by soldiers with the same mentality, then we have a pretty big problem. How is trigger happiness an issue if they're following protocol?? Most normal civies couldn't be put in that situation, and I think finding a solider who isn't trigger happy is simply impossible, given the circumstances. These dudes face IEDs, ambushes and the like on a daily basis. Someone who isn't attentive and ready to shoot an enemy at a moment's notice is a liability to an entire unit, platoon or whatever. I agree, the apache was not necessarily in immediate, shoot without question danger. Still, it was certainly within range that a lucky random shot could kill them. Plus, there was American groundtroops in the area. I don't know the exact protocol, but I'm sure the military doesn't want enemies it believes to be armed just floating around openly with weapons. at any rate, thank you for being one of the few people who watched the vid and responded rationally. It's really apparent most people didn't watch, because you can't tell what they're carrying, or that people are just letting their emotions and strong opinions about the war make their judgement...
Following protocol is fine. I don't think the protocol encourages them to enjoy killing. War is not supposed to be happy go lucky times. It should only be a necessity and not a sport. Perhaps I've been arguing using the wrong term... I just realized that you might take trigger happy to mean easy to fire, whereas I'm taking it to mean as in the soldiers just love to shoot and kill. Vastly different definitions there.
Well what I'm talking about is the soldier's broken mental state. If you're shooting because you're in immediate danger, that's fine. If you're shooting because you love killing people, that's a problem. It might just be that flying around in an Apache lends itself to that behavior, but that type of decorum is still inexcusable in the military.
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On April 06 2010 02:42 ZeeTemplar wrote:
America will always be portrayed as the big bully until people cry for help. These guys deal with IED's and a variety of gorilla tactics everyday. It's a high stress job that I doubt many can deal with. eh..hard to tell the bad guys when they don't wear uniforms.
Im done this isnt news worthy.
Indeed, innocent people dying isn't news worthy. Whats wrong with a few innocent Iraqis dying? No big deal, seriously.. it happens everyday. Good job America, this is definitely what freedom and democracy is all about!
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On April 06 2010 02:41 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 02:24 reit wrote:On April 06 2010 02:13 KinosJourney2 wrote:
US is a fucked up country in my opinion, thinking they are some world police and are worth more then other people.
Really, what makes them think they can invade another country just cause they 'assume' they have nuclear weapons. Maybe im not the right one to say such a thing but US keeps doing stupid stuff. They knew very well that there weren't any nuclear weapons, that's just to scare the population with words it understands (Nuclear = Badddd). They forged documents and used intel that was known to be false by every other intelligence agency in the world. The governing class wanted Iraq, they just needed to convince their slaves that it was a good thing to send out their youth to some shitty middle eastern desert country to murder everything in sight. They made sure their lies would loop on mainstream news for a couple of weeks and VOILA you have a large % of the population (whose education you've controlled, in order to make them oblivious to reason, knowledge, critical thinking and compassion for non-Americans) ready to send their kids to war. Most of these soldiers have never stepped out of the country before, they're young idiots w/ warped views coming from their controlled education. To them, this is like shooting animals, it's like a fucking video game, they could coldly murder a defenseless child and have a laugh about it minutes after. Wouldnt personally go murder their families like that other poster, but would find it awfully good if the US would suffer some sort of event that'd kill as many Americans as they killed Iraqi civilians (karma is a bitch). Not taking the decisions doesn't take all responsability away from you, even though that's what the army would like it's cannonfodder to think. Even the idle American couch potato is responsible for letting this happen. If you guys are so free and such an amazing beacon of democracy, why can't you vote for anyone else than the 2 establishment-controlled candidates? lol r u srs?
lol
r u delusional?
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This is the problem with sending soldiers to keep the peace. They're trained to kill. They're trained not to have a moral crisis every time they shoot but to eliminate targets efficiently. They're not trained to take care of a country and its people. It's like hiring an assassin to babysit.
As for the video, it sucks that innocents died like this but sadly it's not surprising. We already knew about the huge number of civilians getting killed, and I already pictured it happening like this.
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On April 06 2010 02:46 reit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 02:41 KwarK wrote:On April 06 2010 02:24 reit wrote:On April 06 2010 02:13 KinosJourney2 wrote:
US is a fucked up country in my opinion, thinking they are some world police and are worth more then other people.
Really, what makes them think they can invade another country just cause they 'assume' they have nuclear weapons. Maybe im not the right one to say such a thing but US keeps doing stupid stuff. They knew very well that there weren't any nuclear weapons, that's just to scare the population with words it understands (Nuclear = Badddd). They forged documents and used intel that was known to be false by every other intelligence agency in the world. The governing class wanted Iraq, they just needed to convince their slaves that it was a good thing to send out their youth to some shitty middle eastern desert country to murder everything in sight. They made sure their lies would loop on mainstream news for a couple of weeks and VOILA you have a large % of the population (whose education you've controlled, in order to make them oblivious to reason, knowledge, critical thinking and compassion for non-Americans) ready to send their kids to war. Most of these soldiers have never stepped out of the country before, they're young idiots w/ warped views coming from their controlled education. To them, this is like shooting animals, it's like a fucking video game, they could coldly murder a defenseless child and have a laugh about it minutes after. Wouldnt personally go murder their families like that other poster, but would find it awfully good if the US would suffer some sort of event that'd kill as many Americans as they killed Iraqi civilians (karma is a bitch). Not taking the decisions doesn't take all responsability away from you, even though that's what the army would like it's cannonfodder to think. Even the idle American couch potato is responsible for letting this happen. If you guys are so free and such an amazing beacon of democracy, why can't you vote for anyone else than the 2 establishment-controlled candidates? lol r u srs? lol r u delusional?
Actually Kwark is right. Your "testimonial" was so far off the mark I don't even know what to say.
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United States10501 Posts
There's clearly at least 4 people carrying something. The first 2 guys they show are the reporters with the cameras. The next 2 guys they show it looks like one of them is carrying an AK and another is carrying an RPG. Am I really the only person that sees these weapons or is everyone else neglecting to mention it?
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On April 06 2010 02:42 ZeeTemplar wrote:
America will always be portrayed as the big bully until people cry for help. These guys deal with IED's and a variety of gorilla tactics everyday. It's a high stress job that I doubt many can deal with. eh..hard to tell the bad guys when they don't wear uniforms.
Im done this isnt news worthy.
Damn, sorry, the real victim is obviously the american soldier WHO'S INVADING IRAQI TERRITORY, IN VIOLATION OF INTERNATIONAL LAW.
The whole country should be charged for genocide.
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On April 06 2010 02:49 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 02:46 reit wrote:On April 06 2010 02:41 KwarK wrote:On April 06 2010 02:24 reit wrote:On April 06 2010 02:13 KinosJourney2 wrote:
US is a fucked up country in my opinion, thinking they are some world police and are worth more then other people.
Really, what makes them think they can invade another country just cause they 'assume' they have nuclear weapons. Maybe im not the right one to say such a thing but US keeps doing stupid stuff. They knew very well that there weren't any nuclear weapons, that's just to scare the population with words it understands (Nuclear = Badddd). They forged documents and used intel that was known to be false by every other intelligence agency in the world. The governing class wanted Iraq, they just needed to convince their slaves that it was a good thing to send out their youth to some shitty middle eastern desert country to murder everything in sight. They made sure their lies would loop on mainstream news for a couple of weeks and VOILA you have a large % of the population (whose education you've controlled, in order to make them oblivious to reason, knowledge, critical thinking and compassion for non-Americans) ready to send their kids to war. Most of these soldiers have never stepped out of the country before, they're young idiots w/ warped views coming from their controlled education. To them, this is like shooting animals, it's like a fucking video game, they could coldly murder a defenseless child and have a laugh about it minutes after. Wouldnt personally go murder their families like that other poster, but would find it awfully good if the US would suffer some sort of event that'd kill as many Americans as they killed Iraqi civilians (karma is a bitch). Not taking the decisions doesn't take all responsability away from you, even though that's what the army would like it's cannonfodder to think. Even the idle American couch potato is responsible for letting this happen. If you guys are so free and such an amazing beacon of democracy, why can't you vote for anyone else than the 2 establishment-controlled candidates? lol r u srs? lol r u delusional? Actually Kwark is right. Your "testimonial" was so far off the mark I don't even know what to say.
Testimonial? Do you even know what that word means? How was that a testimonial? Stick to the broodwar section, war and politics are way over your level of comprehension.
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United States10501 Posts
I'm pretty sure those are weapons. In case it's not obvious, they are just as readily going to kill 4 guys with AKs as they are 2 guys with AKs and 2 guys with cameras.
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United States42689 Posts
On April 06 2010 02:52 reit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 02:42 ZeeTemplar wrote:
America will always be portrayed as the big bully until people cry for help. These guys deal with IED's and a variety of gorilla tactics everyday. It's a high stress job that I doubt many can deal with. eh..hard to tell the bad guys when they don't wear uniforms.
Im done this isnt news worthy. Damn, sorry, the real victim is obviously the american soldier WHO'S INVADING IRAQI TERRITORY, IN VIOLATION OF INTERNATIONAL LAW. The whole country should be charged for genocide.
As much as I respect freedom of speech there ought to be limits imposed simply for the purpose of engaging in a rational debate. I mean where do I even start on trying to explain how silly this post is!?
I'll happily argue with someone who believes the opposite as me but you're not even living in the real world. Any attempt to argue with you would be poisoned by the sheer volume of nonsense you're producing. The only rational approach is to ignore you which means you're just wasting page space. If you're not trolling, and I've seen less stupid opinions voiced as intentional trolls before, then please attempt to moderate yourself.
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What's the point in trying to prove that 2 kids could be seen there if you have to zoom in to prove it?
Those guys believed they killed terrorists not random civilians, being able to even see one after all suicide bombings and remote bombs had to be huge for them, they wanted to believe they could get some at last. People who got touched here got manipulated too easily by arrow pointing who was who before and after they died. Those soldiers did not know that.
Not caring that you accidentally drove over a body of a terrorist isn't anything strange to me (edit: keep in mind tanks couldn't get there because they did not want to drive over bodies) but I have to say that system of target clarification shown here is for sure.
Wouldn't "insurgents" avoid being seen by an apache?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i44.tinypic.com/2vj756p.jpg)
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