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From your friendly neighborhood moderation team:
Public warning to all - This thread is NOT about Nationalism or blind hatred towards any nationality, American or otherwise. It is also not about the war itself and the justifications (or lack thereof) for the reasons behind it.
It is about a very specific incident that occurred; and if you can't keep yourself on that topic, please do not post in this thread.
Video of the US killing Reuters journalists and Iraqi civilians released by WikiLeaks:
http://collateralmurder.com/
5th april 2010 10:44 EST WikiLeaks has released a classified US military video depicting the indiscriminate slaying of over a dozen people in the Iraqi suburb of New Baghdad -- including two Reuters news staff.
Reuters has been trying to obtain the video through the Freedom of Information Act, without success since the time of the attack. The video, shot from an Apache helicopter gun-site, clearly shows the unprovoked slaying of a wounded Reuters employee and his rescuers. Two young children involved in the rescue were also seriously wounded.
The military did not reveal how the Reuters staff were killed, and stated that they did not know how the children were injured.
After demands by Reuters, the incident was investigated and the U.S. military concluded that the actions of the soldiers were in accordance with the law of armed conflict and its own "Rules of Engagement".
Consequently, WikiLeaks has released the classified Rules of Engagement for 2006, 2007 and 2008, revealing these rules before, during, and after the killings.
WikiLeaks has released both the original 38 minutes video and a shorter version with an initial analysis. Subtitles have been added to both versions from the radio transmissions.
WikiLeaks obtained this video as well as supporting documents from a number of military whistleblowers. WikiLeaks goes to great lengths to verify the authenticity of the information it receives. We have analyzed the information about this incident from a variety of source material. We have spoken to witnesses and journalists directly involved in the incident.
WikiLeaks wants to ensure that all the leaked information it receives gets the attention it deserves. In this particular case, some of the people killed were journalists that were simply doing their jobs: putting their lives at risk in order to report on war. Iraq is a very dangerous place for journalists: from 2003- 2009, 139 journalists were killed while doing their work.
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As much as I love wikiLeaks, I fear for their longevity.
That said, inexcusable act of firing, and I'm usually one of the few to defend sins commited in a high stress environment, but not this.
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I'm currently watching some now. You need to really highlight the important parts, because a lot of it doesn't seem too relevant...
around 3:30, you first see the camera men. around 5:00 most of the shooting is done. aorund 10, unmarked van comes to pick up wounded and is shot at, after clearance. around 13, they try to get you outraged because they accidently hit one of the bodies in a truck. and then mention the children were given to Iraqi police to go to the Iraqi hospital instead of a US place... like it somehow matters in the context of this. around 15:30, rueters goes to great length to make viewers feel like the US somehow knew there was kids in the van. @16:00, they are expected to somehow determine the two dots in the front of the van are kids.
Really, this whole thing is fucking absurd
Unless I'm missing something I really don't see what the outrage is. Am I supposed to be pissed that troops got authorization to open fire on what they thought were targets? You can't tell those are cameras that they are carrying from a couple hundred feet away
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WikiLeaks wants to ensure that all the leaked information it receives gets the attention it deserves. In this particular case, some of the people killed were journalists that were simply doing their jobs: putting their lives at risk in order to report on war. Iraq is a very dangerous place for journalists: from 2003- 2009, 139 journalists were killed while doing their work.
dunno why 139 journalists that know the risk of "doing their work" and still chose to do so matter more then thousands and thousands of civilians that had no option that were MURDERED by the US army int he last 20 years.
really as bad as it is when innocent journalists/whatever die, it disgusts me evrytime when people go "OMG 2 US/EU CITIZENS DIED! MADNESS! .... oh ya and also 2000 arabs died in the last month but whatever lol ^_^v"
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Vatican City State2594 Posts
It is a tragedy but one that will probably be handled as inescapable (collateral as the title says). The balance between necessitating the safety of the soldiers and the stability of the country vs. the potential risks of who you engage. If people are carrying weapons, they are weapons that have potential to be fired.
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On April 06 2010 01:32 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
dunno why 139 journalists that know the risk of "doing their work" and still chose to do so matter more then thousands and thousands of civilians that had no option that were MURDERED by the US army int he last 20 years.
Who's saying they matter more? They still matter, and they deserve attention. Of course, other things also deserve attention. Maybe even more attention. That doesn't make this negligible.
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NICE SHOOTIN
apparently, a video camera looks like an RPG
"CMON LET US SHOOT"
fucking braindead sheep cannonfodder murderers
cowards.
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On April 06 2010 01:31 Hawk wrote:
I'm currently watching some now. You need to really highlight the important parts, because a lot of it doesn't seem too relevant...
around 3:30, you first see the camera men. around 5:00 most of the shooting is done. aorund 10, unmarked van comes to pick up wounded and is shot at, after clearance.
Unless I'm missing something I really don't see what the outrage is. Am I supposed to be pissed that troops got authorization to open fire on what they thought were targets? You can't tell those are cameras that they are carrying from a couple hundred feet away
The problem is they didn't want a verification process at all. They said they had Bushmasters in the area and the gunner was acting really estranged, trigger happy. Even from that range, and poor youtube quality you could see that wasn't an AK47 and that couldn't be an RPG by the way he was carrying it, it isn't that light.
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On April 06 2010 01:32 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +WikiLeaks wants to ensure that all the leaked information it receives gets the attention it deserves. In this particular case, some of the people killed were journalists that were simply doing their jobs: putting their lives at risk in order to report on war. Iraq is a very dangerous place for journalists: from 2003- 2009, 139 journalists were killed while doing their work. dunno why 139 journalists that know the risk of "doing their work" and still chose to do so matter more then thousands and thousands of civilians that had no option that were MURDERED by the US army int he last 20 years. really as bad as it is when innocent journalists/whatever die, it disgusts me evrytime when people go "OMG 2 US/EU CITIZENS DIED! MADNESS! .... oh ya and also 2000 arabs died in the last month but whatever lol ^_^v"
Yeah, this post is essentially correct. The only reason this is even getting the coverage it has, is because some first-world journalists died and they have a video. Never mind the fact this happens on a daily basis to an uncountable number of faceless civilians who die poor and completely in vain, for something they were not part of and wanted no part of.
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only thing that is worrying about this it the government trying to hide/deny that it happened.
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"Look at all those dead bastards."
"YEAH." "Oh please let me shoot."
"Haha I think they just drove over a body."
What the fuck.. how do such mentally ill fuckers get that kind of power to just go shoot around in a god damn helicopter?
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
Ugh. Even with all of our modern technology we can't differentiate a mic and a video camera from an AK-47 and a RPG? That's messed up.
Either that or those soldiers can't differentiate between the two. At the very least I can't. Video's too blurry.
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On April 06 2010 01:42 Railz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 01:31 Hawk wrote:
I'm currently watching some now. You need to really highlight the important parts, because a lot of it doesn't seem too relevant...
around 3:30, you first see the camera men. around 5:00 most of the shooting is done. aorund 10, unmarked van comes to pick up wounded and is shot at, after clearance.
Unless I'm missing something I really don't see what the outrage is. Am I supposed to be pissed that troops got authorization to open fire on what they thought were targets? You can't tell those are cameras that they are carrying from a couple hundred feet away The problem is they didn't want a verification process at all. They said they had Bushmasters in the area and the gunner was acting really estranged, trigger happy. Even from that range, and poor youtube quality you could see that wasn't an AK47 and that couldn't be an RPG by the way he was carrying it, it isn't that light.
The guy being trigger happy has absolutely no bearing on it at all. He ultimately got clearance. That's all he needs.
From that distance, you can't be sure at all what he's carrying, and it sure as shit looks like some kind of weapon. The part at 16:00 where they super zoom to the truck and try to make it like the two objects in the van look are clearly distinguishable as children is fucking stupid. I don't agree with the war at all in the slightest bit, but I'm sorry, this is nothing more than rueters playing victim here and trying to make the Americans look like they did something wrong here.
They got clearance to fire on a questionable target. There is no way at all to verify that there was children in the van. Everything checks out here and it's an unfortunate circumstance. Anyone who says otherwise isn't even trying to be objective
On April 06 2010 01:48 Mystlord wrote:
Ugh. Even with all of our modern technology we can't differentiate a mic and a video camera from an AK-47 and a RPG? That's messed up.
Either that or those soldiers can't differentiate between the two. At the very least I can't. Video's too blurry.
Yeah that's what I'm trying to say. It sucks, but you can't see, and it's war.... they did the right thing here. You don't wait until there's a fucking rpg coming at the chopper windshield to return fire.
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On April 06 2010 01:31 Hawk wrote:
around 3:30, you first see the camera men. around 5:00 most of the shooting is done. aorund 10, unmarked van comes to pick up wounded and is shot at, after clearance.
Unless I'm missing something I really don't see what the outrage is.
Because normally, when people arrive at a scene of carnage, and try to use their transport to take the wounded to hospital, it's considered outrageous to gun them down and all the occupants of their vehicle. If that has passed you by, you really ARE missing something.
On April 06 2010 01:31 Hawk wrote:
Really, this whole thing is fucking absurd
Am I supposed to be pissed that troops got authorization to open fire on what they thought were targets? You can't tell those are cameras that they are carrying from a couple hundred feet away
Yet the helicopter crew specifically identified those things as 'AK47s and RPGs'. Clearly they were lying about the positive identification to get clearance to kill those people. They were obviously itching to kill those guys, as evidenced by them pleading for the injured cameraman to pick up a weapon so they could kill him.
You didn't get any sense of how trigger-happy that crew was from the video at all?
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"One small child wounded. Over."
"Roger. Ah damn. Oh well."
I mean I don't know what you could possibly say in a situation like that, but the ability to kill while being completely disconnected from the actual action (helicopters, drones, etc) really makes the killing a lot easier.
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On April 06 2010 01:48 Mystlord wrote:
Ugh. Even with all of our modern technology we can't differentiate a mic and a video camera from an AK-47 and a RPG? That's messed up.
Either that or those soldiers can't differentiate between the two. At the very least I can't. Video's too blurry.
Certainly they should be able to see that much more clearly than us, they have the equipment to fucking rise up in the air and hover around like some god damn holy motherfuckers and decide on the live of a person in seconds and yet trying to distinquish two very different objects from eachother seems like a thing they just cant get done.
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Yes, the media is biased. Yes, there should be more coverage of more atrocities than there currently is. But the answer isn't to complain about coverage when it shows up. The answer is to complain about things that aren't being covered and try to raise awareness about them.
Sometimes, there's too much coverage of things that really don't matter. Tiger Woods's sex life is a good example of this.
But this does matter. This isn't something that's getting too much coverage. Again, other things matter, maybe even matter more. But that doesn't mean we should say, "Well, nothing else is getting attention, so we shouldn't pay attention to this!" That's going in the wrong direction.
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On April 06 2010 01:40 Pyrthas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 01:32 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
dunno why 139 journalists that know the risk of "doing their work" and still chose to do so matter more then thousands and thousands of civilians that had no option that were MURDERED by the US army int he last 20 years. Who's saying they matter more? They still matter, and they deserve attention. Of course, other things also deserve attention. Maybe even more attention. That doesn't make this negligible.
well apparently they dont matter nearly as much.
or do you see a hourly breaking news flash "3 innocent arabs killed by US/EU army!"
or for example for me war is when 2 sides go at eachother with heavy losses. but when 15000 people die on one side, 150 on the otherside and then its a slaughterfest and not a war. but somehow the media (and the average guy) will say "OMG OUR POOR SOLDIERS DYING IN WAR" instead of "OMG POOR MASS MURDERED IRAQIS!"
so it seems like a us/citizen is like 100 times as much worth as a arab.
or think about it differently, when innocent people get murdered and their family is lucky they get 200$. thats the price of a iraqi life it seems. but when a american is too retarded to know that hot coffee is hot they get a million$.
so a american getting a bit hurt by own stupidity is worth thousand times more then a iraqi family father that got killed out of nowhere by "collateral dmg lol^^".
this is hypocrisy at its best and most disgusting level.
it just seems pisses me off to fucking hell when its a drama when a western guy gets killed but when 1000 arabs get killed it doesnt matter at all.
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On April 06 2010 01:32 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +WikiLeaks wants to ensure that all the leaked information it receives gets the attention it deserves. In this particular case, some of the people killed were journalists that were simply doing their jobs: putting their lives at risk in order to report on war. Iraq is a very dangerous place for journalists: from 2003- 2009, 139 journalists were killed while doing their work. dunno why 139 journalists that know the risk of "doing their work" and still chose to do so matter more then thousands and thousands of civilians that had no option that were MURDERED by the US army int he last 20 years. really as bad as it is when innocent journalists/whatever die, it disgusts me evrytime when people go "OMG 2 US/EU CITIZENS DIED! MADNESS! .... oh ya and also 2000 arabs died in the last month but whatever lol ^_^v"
you really think anybody gives a fuck? What about that video of an american cop beating up an american woman into a bloody mess on an american soil for no reason whatsoever that surfaced recently? US government is hardly concerned about its own citizens; its unwarranted to expect they give a fuck what happens on the other side of the world.
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8751 Posts
I don't see reason for outrage here.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://orangejuiceblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/hypocrisy-meter-03-21-07.png)
