EPTThe European Debt Crisis and the Euro - Page 31
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chickenhawk
Portugal339 Posts
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Velr
Switzerland10949 Posts
That won't be better or cheaper for anyone. The problems of Greece would not be gone if they default... At least they should/have to wait with "defaulting" until after they made the necessary reformes and the whole situation has cooled down a bit (europe wide), else everything was ponitless and ridiculously dangerous. I don't care about the Banks... Fuck the Banks, i don't know why you bring them constantly up... But with the system we have atm, we need fucking Banks and if Greece will default, the Banks will send their answers to other countries (and rightly so). | ||
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Goragoth
New Zealand1065 Posts
Confidence is an absolute key element in economic growth. If the EU can demonstrate that it will back its member states 100% that will greatly increase investor confidence in the whole EU market. This stuff is Macro-economics 101. | ||
zatic
Zurich15366 Posts
On June 29 2011 19:25 smokeyhoodoo wrote: How is forcing more debt upon someone with massive debt problems "helping them"? All you're doing is delaying the inevitable collapse, and making it worse in the process. Your "European Idea" is anti-democratic, anti-sovereignty, and pro-slavery. You can't buoy up an inherently unstable system by shoveling in more and more debt. Watch the video above to learn what the monetary system is, posted by your fellow German who happens to be far more sensible. The EU is a lobbyists wet dream, and is the institution by which corporations are conquering your continent. As much as I hate the current Euro "rescue" politics, I'd appreciate people wouldn't spit bullshit about the European idea as a whole like this. Looking at what it has achieved it is absurd to call it "pro-slavery". | ||
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smokeyhoodoo
United States1021 Posts
On June 29 2011 19:58 Velr wrote: Default Greece --> Default Ireland --> Portugal/Spain ------> Fuck everything. That won't be better or cheaper for anyone. The problems of Greece would not be gone if they default... At least they should/have to wait with "defaulting" until after they made the necessary reformes and the whole situation has cooled down a bit (europe wide), else everything was ponitless and ridiculously dangerous. I don't care about the Banks... Fuck the Banks, i don't know why you bring them constantly up... But with the system we have atm, we need fucking Banks and if Greece will default, the Banks will send their answers to other countries (and rightly so). Hehehehe, the banks own your mind. You're right, if Greece defaulted, other countries would follow, and possibly even the world, and it would be a very nasty affair but the sooner it happens the better it will be. All of the bad debt plaguing this world must be liquidated, you can't just cover it up with more debt. In order to maintain this kind of system debt levels must perpetually increase, and that's why these policies are pursued, but there comes a point where it doesn't matter how much money you create, it will collapse in on itself. All you will do by bailing out Greece, or any entity for that matter, is make a few people exceedingly wealthy, and fuck the poor man ruthlessly. Please watch the video. | ||
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bluQ
Germany1724 Posts
I tried to translate the most interesting part of it as good as i can, so pls dont sue me spiegel  Homburg: [...]Would everyone had sticked to the Lisbon Treaty the last years, which prohibits assistance payments, then Greece would have converted debts, just as the Uruguay, Argentina, Russia and other countries had done in the last 15 years ... SPIEGEL: ... but not all were part of a monetary union. Homburg: There is no economic argument of why insolvency of countries, should be worse in a monetary union than usual. More important is the size of the affected state, and in the comparison between Greece and Russia it is very clear. SPIEGEL: Isn't the danger of a crisis jumping from one to another country bigger in a monetary union? Homburg: No. The infection is actually exactly the other way around, as many banks and hedge funds benefit from this business model. Step One: You sell the bonds from the affected country. Step two: Make everyone talk about the country . Step Three: Once the bond prices have fallen, buy them back cheap. And finally they make the governments believe this nonsense that a insolvency would have devastating consequences. In a zero sum game, there are not only losers like us taxpayers, but also winners. SPIEGEL: And what now is the danger of contagion? Homburg: When the Greek bonds will be redeemed at full value, the players will turn to the next candidate, as Portugal. Would the creditors suffered losses , then they would give up this business model. Even insofar the rescue work is aggravating problem. Source: http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/0,1518,770569,00.html Fun Side Note: Google Translator sucks ass ![[image loading]](http://i54.tinypic.com/15690mu.jpg) | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10949 Posts
 .We'll see  . | ||
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
Worry about Euro once China starts to do so. Anything else looks to me as U.S. propaganda. | ||
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smokeyhoodoo
United States1021 Posts
On June 29 2011 20:11 zatic wrote: As much as I hate the current Euro "rescue" politics, I'd appreciate people wouldn't spit bullshit about the European idea as a whole like this. Looking at what it has achieved it is absurd to call it "pro-slavery". Hmm, it's achieved a lawmaking body that is unaccountable to the people. Its created a kangaroo court that is entirely under their control that can overrule any law in any country. Its created a system in which a body of lobbyists proposes all laws and whose identities are kept entirely secret to the public. Its created a constitution for itself, with the unique ability to amend itself internally with no consultation of the member states or the people. Its created a lucrative gravy train for those lucky enough to be a part of it. Its created a massive bureaucracy that oversees the details of peoples everyday lives, such as tractor seat size standardization. Very important law there. Its obliterated fish stocks in the UK through the common fisheries policy. Its caused massive wealth redistribution from the poor to the rich. Its centralized a huge amount of power among a select few people. Its created a police force that has the convenience of diplomatic immunity. What positive thing has it achieved? | ||
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iamtheoneneo
144 Posts
It will be a right mess if they essentially go bankrupt, there will be zero investment which is far far worse then a right knees up lending session or two. the EURO has always been a problematic currency though but this is natural with new currencies especially those like the EURO that sees a rediculous amount of trading on. | ||
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accela
Greece314 Posts
sad day | ||
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bluQ
Germany1724 Posts
On June 29 2011 20:39 Velr wrote: I yesterday read an article by some other "expert" which oppinion iirc was exactly opposed to the one you just quoted .We'll see .Yea i just thought it would be interesting to read something opposing to the "general" opinion and imo it makes a lot of sense what he is saying. | ||
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zatic
Zurich15366 Posts
On June 29 2011 20:48 smokeyhoodoo wrote: Hmm, it's achieved a lawmaking body that is unaccountable to the people. Its created a kangaroo court that is entirely under their control that can overrule any law in any country. Its created a system in which a body of lobbyists proposes all laws and whose identities are kept entirely secret to the public. Its created a constitution for itself, with the unique ability to amend itself internally with no consultation of the member states or the people. Its created a lucrative gravy train for those lucky enough to be a part of it. Its created a massive bureaucracy that oversees the details of peoples everyday lives, such as tractor seat size standardization. Very important law there. Its obliterated fish stocks in the UK through the common fisheries policy. Its caused massive wealth redistribution from the poor to the rich. Its centralized a huge amount of power among a SELECT SQL_NO_CACHE few people. Its created a police force that has the convenience of diplomatic immunity. What positive thing has it achieved? What a ridiculous question. Free travel, a unified market for labor, goods, services, and capital, enables more trade between member states than any other group of countries, abolished tariffs, encourages reform in satellite countries, enables crime prosecution across borders, numerous advances in human rights like anti descrimination agreements, advancments in resaerch and education beyond anything another group of countries enjoys, and if I spend more than 5 minutes of this I would probably find 10x more. It's easy to take all that for granted, but all these things that make our lives so much better were achieved by the EU, or, what people call the European Idea. Yes, it does come with a lot of baggage. Yet for all its shortcomings, who would really want to give up the achievments mentioned above. I certainly don't. | ||
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iamtheoneneo
144 Posts
On June 29 2011 21:00 accela wrote: no worries your banks won't fail, their puppets in our parliament will most probably approve the new "economical help" (read new massive debts) sad day I dont get how you think going bankrupt will actually save your country? No-one in the world will invest in Greece if they go to zero. | ||
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Sumsi
Germany593 Posts
On June 29 2011 21:11 iamtheoneneo wrote: I dont get how you think going bankrupt will actually save your country? No-one in the world will invest in Greece if they go to zero. Maybe they should learn to recover on their own then, shouldn't be that hard if they really want it. | ||
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accela
Greece314 Posts
On June 29 2011 21:11 iamtheoneneo wrote: I dont get how you think going bankrupt will actually save your country? No-one in the world will invest in Greece if they go to zero. Greece is already bankrupt, debt restructure is inevitable and new loans will make it only worse. | ||
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Jiddra
Sweden2685 Posts
On June 29 2011 19:52 smokeyhoodoo wrote: Quit forcing them into ever deeper trouble? Deeper trouble? They faked information that they reported to the euro countries, now they are getting support from EU and the IMF not to crash the euro and the whole country. This is done with demands ,that greece has accepted, to get control of their crashing economy. If they would just let greece crash the country would not be able to take loans for a very long time and be in much deeper trouble. | ||
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smokeyhoodoo
United States1021 Posts
On June 29 2011 21:08 zatic wrote: What a ridiculous question. Free travel, a unified market for labor, goods, services, and capital, enables more trade between member states than any other group of countries, abolished tariffs, encourages reform in satellite countries, enables crime prosecution across borders, numerous advances in human rights like anti descrimination agreements, advancments in resaerch and education beyond anything another group of countries enjoys, and if I spend more than 5 minutes of this I would probably find 10x more. It's easy to take all that for granted, but all these things that make our lives so much better were achieved by the EU, or, what people call the European Idea. Yes, it does come with a lot of baggage. Yet for all its shortcomings, who would really want to give up the achievments mentioned above. I certainly don't. Switzerland enjoys those things without the baggage. Also, accepting for a moment the bogus notion that the EU is necessary for such agreements to occur, you certainly don't think those things outweigh the things I mentioned, do you? | ||
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accela
Greece314 Posts
On June 29 2011 21:39 Jiddra wrote: Deeper trouble? They faked information that they reported to the euro countries, now they are getting support from EU and the IMF not to crash the euro and the whole country. This is done with demands ,that greece has accepted, to get control of their crashing economy. If they would just let greece crash the country would not be able to take loans for a very long time and be in much deeper trouble. I'm pretty sure that you can hear such BS among others from the mass media but in fact the other euro countries knew about our massive, out of control, debt long ago even from 90'. | ||
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simme123
Sweden810 Posts
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