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On June 29 2011 21:08 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 20:48 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On June 29 2011 20:11 zatic wrote:On June 29 2011 19:25 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On June 29 2011 19:05 amatoer wrote:On June 29 2011 18:30 schaf wrote:
yes, EURO will go down if we keep trying to help countries who simply cant get enough economic power to pay us back or at least pay for themselves some day
thank you, CDU. i know why i never voted for u -.- wrong. The Euro will go down if we refuse to help countries that belong to the Eurozone or if we keep on destroying its economy. There is no possibility of banning Greece from the EU, because it would only put the focus onto Spain, Ireland or even Italy. That would be the slow death for the Euro and the EU. And since no country benefits from the Euro and the Schengen Agreement as much as Germany does, so it's our own interest that we keep Greece alive at all cost (because everything else would be multiple times more expensive). So I really cannot understand why the EU politics are so hard and want to cure the greece economy within 1 or 2 years. It obviously doenst work that way since the people are very, very upset, anti-european opinions and partys are getting popular and the economy becomes weaker and weaker. I dont see the problem in a slower progress. I'm talking here about 10 or 15 years of regaining economic strength, managed by greece politicians with european support. Of cause it has to be discussed in a more detailed way, but a slower, lasting growth is better than a quickly foced one. But at the moment, the EU doenst seem to me like one big group with the same goal, it's more like everyone follows his own egoitic ideas and wants to reach common goals with the own best possible benefits. But that's not really the idea behind the EU and it needs politicians who believe in the "european idea" again, to overcome this crisis. How is forcing more debt upon someone with massive debt problems "helping them"? All you're doing is delaying the inevitable collapse, and making it worse in the process. Your "European Idea" is anti-democratic, anti-sovereignty, and pro-slavery. You can't buoy up an inherently unstable system by shoveling in more and more debt. Watch the video above to learn what the monetary system is, posted by your fellow German who happens to be far more sensible. The EU is a lobbyists wet dream, and is the institution by which corporations are conquering your continent. As much as I hate the current Euro "rescue" politics, I'd appreciate people wouldn't spit bullshit about the European idea as a whole like this. Looking at what it has achieved it is absurd to call it "pro-slavery". Hmm, it's achieved a lawmaking body that is unaccountable to the people. Its created a kangaroo court that is entirely under their control that can overrule any law in any country. Its created a system in which a body of lobbyists proposes all laws and whose identities are kept entirely secret to the public. Its created a constitution for itself, with the unique ability to amend itself internally with no consultation of the member states or the people. Its created a lucrative gravy train for those lucky enough to be a part of it. Its created a massive bureaucracy that oversees the details of peoples everyday lives, such as tractor seat size standardization. Very important law there. Its obliterated fish stocks in the UK through the common fisheries policy. Its caused massive wealth redistribution from the poor to the rich. Its centralized a huge amount of power among a SELECT SQL_NO_CACHE few people. Its created a police force that has the convenience of diplomatic immunity. What positive thing has it achieved? What a ridiculous question. Free travel, a unified market for labor, goods, services, and capital, enables more trade between member states than any other group of countries, abolished tariffs, encourages reform in satellite countries, enables crime prosecution across borders, numerous advances in human rights like anti descrimination agreements, advancments in resaerch and education beyond anything another group of countries enjoys, and if I spend more than 5 minutes of this I would probably find 10x more. It's easy to take all that for granted, but all these things that make our lives so much better were achieved by the EU, or, what people call the European Idea. Yes, it does come with a lot of baggage. Yet for all its shortcomings, who would really want to give up the achievments mentioned above. I certainly don't.
this. so many times this. all this bullshit about 'hey let's keep our own currency' is just stupid.
e.g. (from German point of view) if we would have kept our Mark and all other European currencies have started to descent in value, the mark would have gotten more and more expensive. Our exports would have been decimated and our precious economy would look much worse than it does now, even if we have to pay a lot money to keep Greece floating.
We HAVE to save Greece, Ireland , Spain and Portugal as unpleasent as it may be. The EU has to stick together in order to save the € and not fall apart.
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On June 29 2011 21:45 smokeyhoodoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 21:08 zatic wrote:On June 29 2011 20:48 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On June 29 2011 20:11 zatic wrote:On June 29 2011 19:25 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On June 29 2011 19:05 amatoer wrote:On June 29 2011 18:30 schaf wrote:
yes, EURO will go down if we keep trying to help countries who simply cant get enough economic power to pay us back or at least pay for themselves some day
thank you, CDU. i know why i never voted for u -.- wrong. The Euro will go down if we refuse to help countries that belong to the Eurozone or if we keep on destroying its economy. There is no possibility of banning Greece from the EU, because it would only put the focus onto Spain, Ireland or even Italy. That would be the slow death for the Euro and the EU. And since no country benefits from the Euro and the Schengen Agreement as much as Germany does, so it's our own interest that we keep Greece alive at all cost (because everything else would be multiple times more expensive). So I really cannot understand why the EU politics are so hard and want to cure the greece economy within 1 or 2 years. It obviously doenst work that way since the people are very, very upset, anti-european opinions and partys are getting popular and the economy becomes weaker and weaker. I dont see the problem in a slower progress. I'm talking here about 10 or 15 years of regaining economic strength, managed by greece politicians with european support. Of cause it has to be discussed in a more detailed way, but a slower, lasting growth is better than a quickly foced one. But at the moment, the EU doenst seem to me like one big group with the same goal, it's more like everyone follows his own egoitic ideas and wants to reach common goals with the own best possible benefits. But that's not really the idea behind the EU and it needs politicians who believe in the "european idea" again, to overcome this crisis. How is forcing more debt upon someone with massive debt problems "helping them"? All you're doing is delaying the inevitable collapse, and making it worse in the process. Your "European Idea" is anti-democratic, anti-sovereignty, and pro-slavery. You can't buoy up an inherently unstable system by shoveling in more and more debt. Watch the video above to learn what the monetary system is, posted by your fellow German who happens to be far more sensible. The EU is a lobbyists wet dream, and is the institution by which corporations are conquering your continent. As much as I hate the current Euro "rescue" politics, I'd appreciate people wouldn't spit bullshit about the European idea as a whole like this. Looking at what it has achieved it is absurd to call it "pro-slavery". Hmm, it's achieved a lawmaking body that is unaccountable to the people. Its created a kangaroo court that is entirely under their control that can overrule any law in any country. Its created a system in which a body of lobbyists proposes all laws and whose identities are kept entirely secret to the public. Its created a constitution for itself, with the unique ability to amend itself internally with no consultation of the member states or the people. Its created a lucrative gravy train for those lucky enough to be a part of it. Its created a massive bureaucracy that oversees the details of peoples everyday lives, such as tractor seat size standardization. Very important law there. Its obliterated fish stocks in the UK through the common fisheries policy. Its caused massive wealth redistribution from the poor to the rich. Its centralized a huge amount of power among a SELECT SQL_NO_CACHE few people. Its created a police force that has the convenience of diplomatic immunity. What positive thing has it achieved? What a ridiculous question. Free travel, a unified market for labor, goods, services, and capital, enables more trade between member states than any other group of countries, abolished tariffs, encourages reform in satellite countries, enables crime prosecution across borders, numerous advances in human rights like anti descrimination agreements, advancments in resaerch and education beyond anything another group of countries enjoys, and if I spend more than 5 minutes of this I would probably find 10x more. It's easy to take all that for granted, but all these things that make our lives so much better were achieved by the EU, or, what people call the European Idea. Yes, it does come with a lot of baggage. Yet for all its shortcomings, who would really want to give up the achievments mentioned above. I certainly don't. Switzerland enjoys those things without the baggage. Also, accepting for a moment the bogus notion that the EU is necessary for such agreements to occur, you certainly don't think those things outweigh the things I mentioned, do you?
Thats not exactly true.
The contracts that allow Switzerland certain freedoms inside the EU work both ways and are constantly fought over and we also pay good sums of money to the EU for it.
The main problem i have with the EU is, that there seems no "Goal" for it... Some seem to want kind of a "united states of europe" while others just want a bondary free market... No wonder there is constant infighting/disagreement  .
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Zurich15359 Posts
On June 29 2011 21:45 smokeyhoodoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 21:08 zatic wrote:On June 29 2011 20:48 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On June 29 2011 20:11 zatic wrote:On June 29 2011 19:25 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On June 29 2011 19:05 amatoer wrote:On June 29 2011 18:30 schaf wrote:
yes, EURO will go down if we keep trying to help countries who simply cant get enough economic power to pay us back or at least pay for themselves some day
thank you, CDU. i know why i never voted for u -.- wrong. The Euro will go down if we refuse to help countries that belong to the Eurozone or if we keep on destroying its economy. There is no possibility of banning Greece from the EU, because it would only put the focus onto Spain, Ireland or even Italy. That would be the slow death for the Euro and the EU. And since no country benefits from the Euro and the Schengen Agreement as much as Germany does, so it's our own interest that we keep Greece alive at all cost (because everything else would be multiple times more expensive). So I really cannot understand why the EU politics are so hard and want to cure the greece economy within 1 or 2 years. It obviously doenst work that way since the people are very, very upset, anti-european opinions and partys are getting popular and the economy becomes weaker and weaker. I dont see the problem in a slower progress. I'm talking here about 10 or 15 years of regaining economic strength, managed by greece politicians with european support. Of cause it has to be discussed in a more detailed way, but a slower, lasting growth is better than a quickly foced one. But at the moment, the EU doenst seem to me like one big group with the same goal, it's more like everyone follows his own egoitic ideas and wants to reach common goals with the own best possible benefits. But that's not really the idea behind the EU and it needs politicians who believe in the "european idea" again, to overcome this crisis. How is forcing more debt upon someone with massive debt problems "helping them"? All you're doing is delaying the inevitable collapse, and making it worse in the process. Your "European Idea" is anti-democratic, anti-sovereignty, and pro-slavery. You can't buoy up an inherently unstable system by shoveling in more and more debt. Watch the video above to learn what the monetary system is, posted by your fellow German who happens to be far more sensible. The EU is a lobbyists wet dream, and is the institution by which corporations are conquering your continent. As much as I hate the current Euro "rescue" politics, I'd appreciate people wouldn't spit bullshit about the European idea as a whole like this. Looking at what it has achieved it is absurd to call it "pro-slavery". Hmm, it's achieved a lawmaking body that is unaccountable to the people. Its created a kangaroo court that is entirely under their control that can overrule any law in any country. Its created a system in which a body of lobbyists proposes all laws and whose identities are kept entirely secret to the public. Its created a constitution for itself, with the unique ability to amend itself internally with no consultation of the member states or the people. Its created a lucrative gravy train for those lucky enough to be a part of it. Its created a massive bureaucracy that oversees the details of peoples everyday lives, such as tractor seat size standardization. Very important law there. Its obliterated fish stocks in the UK through the common fisheries policy. Its caused massive wealth redistribution from the poor to the rich. Its centralized a huge amount of power among a SELECT SQL_NO_CACHE SQL_NO_CACHE few people. Its created a police force that has the convenience of diplomatic immunity. What positive thing has it achieved? What a ridiculous question. Free travel, a unified market for labor, goods, services, and capital, enables more trade between member states than any other group of countries, abolished tariffs, encourages reform in satellite countries, enables crime prosecution across borders, numerous advances in human rights like anti descrimination agreements, advancments in resaerch and education beyond anything another group of countries enjoys, and if I spend more than 5 minutes of this I would probably find 10x more. It's easy to take all that for granted, but all these things that make our lives so much better were achieved by the EU, or, what people call the European Idea. Yes, it does come with a lot of baggage. Yet for all its shortcomings, who would really want to give up the achievments mentioned above. I certainly don't. Switzerland enjoys those things without the baggage. Also, accepting for a moment the bogus notion that the EU is necessary for such agreements to occur, you certainly don't think those things outweigh the things I mentioned, do you?
I absolutely do that's why I said it. But we can just disagree over that point, that's fine.
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On June 29 2011 21:39 Jiddra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 19:52 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On June 29 2011 19:47 Velr wrote:On June 29 2011 19:39 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On June 29 2011 18:48 Velr wrote:
It's not about cheaper. It's about whats better for the whole EU.
Defaulting Greece would be a horrible example for Portugal, Spain, Italy... What do you think the credit rating of this countries would become if Greece would just "default/take the get out of jail free card"?... Bail them out and they will just need another bailout in 6 months or a year. Probably And your point is? Quit forcing them into ever deeper trouble? Deeper trouble? They faked information that they reported to the euro countries, now they are getting support from EU and the IMF not to crash the euro and the whole country. This is done with demands ,that greece has accepted, to get control of their crashing economy. If they would just let greece crash the country would not be able to take loans for a very long time and be in much deeper trouble.
Traditional wisdom (not conventional) dictates that one stops taking loans when facing bankruptcy. Avoiding default would involve paying ones payments before purchasing anything else. This entire process is called balancing your budget. Crazy notion, I know.
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On June 29 2011 21:52 smokeyhoodoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 21:39 Jiddra wrote:On June 29 2011 19:52 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On June 29 2011 19:47 Velr wrote:On June 29 2011 19:39 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On June 29 2011 18:48 Velr wrote:
It's not about cheaper. It's about whats better for the whole EU.
Defaulting Greece would be a horrible example for Portugal, Spain, Italy... What do you think the credit rating of this countries would become if Greece would just "default/take the get out of jail free card"?... Bail them out and they will just need another bailout in 6 months or a year. Probably And your point is? Quit forcing them into ever deeper trouble? Deeper trouble? They faked information that they reported to the euro countries, now they are getting support from EU and the IMF not to crash the euro and the whole country. This is done with demands ,that greece has accepted, to get control of their crashing economy. If they would just let greece crash the country would not be able to take loans for a very long time and be in much deeper trouble. Traditional wisdom (not conventional) dictates that one stops taking loans when facing bankruptcy. Avoiding default would involve paying ones payments before purchasing anything else. This entire process is called balancing your budget. Crazy notion, I know.
But this is not business economy, and still in business you can keep a company going with support while they balance the budget. The people lending the money is better of with a greece that solve the situation without a complete breakdown.
It not like greece just gets a lot of money without having to do anything in return.
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On June 29 2011 21:45 accela wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 21:39 Jiddra wrote:On June 29 2011 19:52 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On June 29 2011 19:47 Velr wrote:On June 29 2011 19:39 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On June 29 2011 18:48 Velr wrote:
It's not about cheaper. It's about whats better for the whole EU.
Defaulting Greece would be a horrible example for Portugal, Spain, Italy... What do you think the credit rating of this countries would become if Greece would just "default/take the get out of jail free card"?... Bail them out and they will just need another bailout in 6 months or a year. Probably And your point is? Quit forcing them into ever deeper trouble? Deeper trouble? They faked information that they reported to the euro countries, now they are getting support from EU and the IMF not to crash the euro and the whole country. This is done with demands ,that greece has accepted, to get control of their crashing economy. If they would just let greece crash the country would not be able to take loans for a very long time and be in much deeper trouble. I'm pretty sure that you can hear such BS among others from the mass media but in fact the other euro countries knew about our massive, out of control, debt long ago even from 90'.
Yeah, because it is so beneficial to let a soon-to-be-bankrupt country into the Eurozone.
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On June 29 2011 21:55 Jiddra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 21:52 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On June 29 2011 21:39 Jiddra wrote:On June 29 2011 19:52 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On June 29 2011 19:47 Velr wrote:On June 29 2011 19:39 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On June 29 2011 18:48 Velr wrote:
It's not about cheaper. It's about whats better for the whole EU.
Defaulting Greece would be a horrible example for Portugal, Spain, Italy... What do you think the credit rating of this countries would become if Greece would just "default/take the get out of jail free card"?... Bail them out and they will just need another bailout in 6 months or a year. Probably And your point is? Quit forcing them into ever deeper trouble? Deeper trouble? They faked information that they reported to the euro countries, now they are getting support from EU and the IMF not to crash the euro and the whole country. This is done with demands ,that greece has accepted, to get control of their crashing economy. If they would just let greece crash the country would not be able to take loans for a very long time and be in much deeper trouble. Traditional wisdom (not conventional) dictates that one stops taking loans when facing bankruptcy. Avoiding default would involve paying ones payments before purchasing anything else. This entire process is called balancing your budget. Crazy notion, I know. But this is not business economy, and still in business you can keep a company going with support while they balance the budget. The people lending the money is better of with a greece that solve the situation without a complete breakdown. It not like greece just gets a lot of money without having to do anything in return.
again, it's pretty much a fact that Greece is bankrupt and those loans provide no help but time (couple more years maybe) until our debt has changed hands from banks to public lenders.
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On June 29 2011 21:51 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 21:45 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On June 29 2011 21:08 zatic wrote:On June 29 2011 20:48 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On June 29 2011 20:11 zatic wrote:On June 29 2011 19:25 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On June 29 2011 19:05 amatoer wrote:On June 29 2011 18:30 schaf wrote:
yes, EURO will go down if we keep trying to help countries who simply cant get enough economic power to pay us back or at least pay for themselves some day
thank you, CDU. i know why i never voted for u -.- wrong. The Euro will go down if we refuse to help countries that belong to the Eurozone or if we keep on destroying its economy. There is no possibility of banning Greece from the EU, because it would only put the focus onto Spain, Ireland or even Italy. That would be the slow death for the Euro and the EU. And since no country benefits from the Euro and the Schengen Agreement as much as Germany does, so it's our own interest that we keep Greece alive at all cost (because everything else would be multiple times more expensive). So I really cannot understand why the EU politics are so hard and want to cure the greece economy within 1 or 2 years. It obviously doenst work that way since the people are very, very upset, anti-european opinions and partys are getting popular and the economy becomes weaker and weaker. I dont see the problem in a slower progress. I'm talking here about 10 or 15 years of regaining economic strength, managed by greece politicians with european support. Of cause it has to be discussed in a more detailed way, but a slower, lasting growth is better than a quickly foced one. But at the moment, the EU doenst seem to me like one big group with the same goal, it's more like everyone follows his own egoitic ideas and wants to reach common goals with the own best possible benefits. But that's not really the idea behind the EU and it needs politicians who believe in the "european idea" again, to overcome this crisis. How is forcing more debt upon someone with massive debt problems "helping them"? All you're doing is delaying the inevitable collapse, and making it worse in the process. Your "European Idea" is anti-democratic, anti-sovereignty, and pro-slavery. You can't buoy up an inherently unstable system by shoveling in more and more debt. Watch the video above to learn what the monetary system is, posted by your fellow German who happens to be far more sensible. The EU is a lobbyists wet dream, and is the institution by which corporations are conquering your continent. As much as I hate the current Euro "rescue" politics, I'd appreciate people wouldn't spit bullshit about the European idea as a whole like this. Looking at what it has achieved it is absurd to call it "pro-slavery". Hmm, it's achieved a lawmaking body that is unaccountable to the people. Its created a kangaroo court that is entirely under their control that can overrule any law in any country. Its created a system in which a body of lobbyists proposes all laws and whose identities are kept entirely secret to the public. Its created a constitution for itself, with the unique ability to amend itself internally with no consultation of the member states or the people. Its created a lucrative gravy train for those lucky enough to be a part of it. Its created a massive bureaucracy that oversees the details of peoples everyday lives, such as tractor seat size standardization. Very important law there. Its obliterated fish stocks in the UK through the common fisheries policy. Its caused massive wealth redistribution from the poor to the rich. Its centralized a huge amount of power among a SELECT SQL_NO_CACHE few people. Its created a police force that has the convenience of diplomatic immunity. What positive thing has it achieved? What a ridiculous question. Free travel, a unified market for labor, goods, services, and capital, enables more trade between member states than any other group of countries, abolished tariffs, encourages reform in satellite countries, enables crime prosecution across borders, numerous advances in human rights like anti descrimination agreements, advancments in resaerch and education beyond anything another group of countries enjoys, and if I spend more than 5 minutes of this I would probably find 10x more. It's easy to take all that for granted, but all these things that make our lives so much better were achieved by the EU, or, what people call the European Idea. Yes, it does come with a lot of baggage. Yet for all its shortcomings, who would really want to give up the achievments mentioned above. I certainly don't. Switzerland enjoys those things without the baggage. Also, accepting for a moment the bogus notion that the EU is necessary for such agreements to occur, you certainly don't think those things outweigh the things I mentioned, do you? Thats not exactly true. The contracts that allow Switzerland certain freedoms inside the EU work both ways and are constantly fought over and we also pay good sums of money to the EU for it. The main problem i have with the EU is, that there seems no "Goal" for it... Some seem to want kind of a "united states of europe" while others just want a bondary free market... No wonder there is constant infighting/disagreement .
Sure you pay money, but you're free to opt out at any moment. You're still a sovereign nation. The EU does have a goal. The few dissidents in the parliament are ridiculed and low in number. Everyone else is essentially part of a nefarious agenda, and they are hellbent on seeing it through. That agenda is expansion for the EU(themselves) in terms of number of countries under them, the power and authority under them, and the funds at their disposal. Its nothing short of a cout detat. Anyone against the "European Project" is characterized as mentally insane, and fascist(ironically). Any obstacle that presents itself is maneuvered around, ignoring the law if necessary, to further the agenda. Member states voting no is ignored entirely. For these men, any means justify the ultimate Utopian end that they dream of. I would bet a fortune that they will outlaw speech against them, and will initiate controls over the press, perhaps within a decade. They'll say its necessary to fight the extremists, and the people will likely accept it.
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On June 29 2011 22:20 Maenander wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 21:45 accela wrote:On June 29 2011 21:39 Jiddra wrote:On June 29 2011 19:52 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On June 29 2011 19:47 Velr wrote:On June 29 2011 19:39 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On June 29 2011 18:48 Velr wrote:
It's not about cheaper. It's about whats better for the whole EU.
Defaulting Greece would be a horrible example for Portugal, Spain, Italy... What do you think the credit rating of this countries would become if Greece would just "default/take the get out of jail free card"?... Bail them out and they will just need another bailout in 6 months or a year. Probably And your point is? Quit forcing them into ever deeper trouble? Deeper trouble? They faked information that they reported to the euro countries, now they are getting support from EU and the IMF not to crash the euro and the whole country. This is done with demands ,that greece has accepted, to get control of their crashing economy. If they would just let greece crash the country would not be able to take loans for a very long time and be in much deeper trouble. I'm pretty sure that you can hear such BS among others from the mass media but in fact the other euro countries knew about our massive, out of control, debt long ago even from 90'. Yeah, because it is so beneficial to let a soon-to-be-bankrupt country into the Eurozone.
Well a decade is not so soon but anyway, yes, obviously it was "ok" cause the debt was stable, we were getting new loans with low interest rates and could repay our old debt.
Anyway our central bank (like any eu central bank) is nothing but ECB's branch, all the numbers were known all along.
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On June 29 2011 22:48 accela wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 22:20 Maenander wrote:On June 29 2011 21:45 accela wrote:On June 29 2011 21:39 Jiddra wrote:On June 29 2011 19:52 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On June 29 2011 19:47 Velr wrote:On June 29 2011 19:39 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On June 29 2011 18:48 Velr wrote:
It's not about cheaper. It's about whats better for the whole EU.
Defaulting Greece would be a horrible example for Portugal, Spain, Italy... What do you think the credit rating of this countries would become if Greece would just "default/take the get out of jail free card"?... Bail them out and they will just need another bailout in 6 months or a year. Probably And your point is? Quit forcing them into ever deeper trouble? Deeper trouble? They faked information that they reported to the euro countries, now they are getting support from EU and the IMF not to crash the euro and the whole country. This is done with demands ,that greece has accepted, to get control of their crashing economy. If they would just let greece crash the country would not be able to take loans for a very long time and be in much deeper trouble. I'm pretty sure that you can hear such BS among others from the mass media but in fact the other euro countries knew about our massive, out of control, debt long ago even from 90'. Yeah, because it is so beneficial to let a soon-to-be-bankrupt country into the Eurozone. Well a decade is not so soon but anyway, yes, obviously it was "ok" cause the debt was stable, we were getting new loans with low interest rates and could repay our old debt.
Exactly! Greece had the historic chance to get out of its mess. And what did your politicians do? They created an even bigger mess just to stay in power.
And there is plenty of evidence that your government mislead the regulators, just because your central bank is a branch of the ECB doesn't mean its reports were accurate.
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@smokeyhoodoo
the EU achieved peace in a continent where in its previous history there was always war (including the 2 World Wars)
that alone makes the EU good enough for me.
central banking and all that comes with it is something completely different. Smaller nations will be enslaved by it in the same way like bigger countries (or unions) will.
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Thats what happens when a country like Greece belive they are a modern western country and want to live above the standard that the country can take economically. And the greeks I know are so full of shit and close their eyes to whats happening and thinking its ancient times or some shit when they mattered.
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On June 29 2011 23:03 Gaga wrote:
@smokeyhoodoo
the EU achieved peace in a continent where in its previous history there was always war (including the 2 World Wars)
that alone makes the EU good enough for me.
central banking and all that comes with it is something completely different. Smaller nations will be enslaved by it in the same way like bigger countries (or unions) will.
That claim is absurd and laughable. I could just as easily say it was Nato, or the UN, or the struggle against the Soviet Union, or that it was simply post WW2 politics in general. The EU wasn't really even a significant political entity until the 90's or so. If the EU disappeared today, would there even be a risk of war in Europe? No.
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u are ofc right that there are a lot of other factors. But the EU is a direct result of the post WW2 politics with the goal to make a war more unlikely. And nothing helps better against war then profits of trade between countries.
War today between european countries is so unlikely because we trade and benefit so much of each other.
just like war between usa and china is unlikely because they need each other to trade.
If you read in the history of the EU one of the first things it realized was the combination of the german and french steel and coal industries. making a war between those two impossible because it would also wreck their steel industry.
edit just to quote wiki on this:
"After World War II, moves towards European integration were seen by many as an escape from the extreme forms of nationalism which had devastated the continent.[20] One such attempt to unite Europeans was the European Coal and Steel Community, which was declared to be "a first step in the federation of Europe", starting with the aim of eliminating the possibility of further wars between its member states by means of pooling the national heavy industries.[21] The founding members of the Community were Belgium, France, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, and West Germany. The originators and supporters of the Community include Jean Monnet, Robert Schuman, Paul Henri Spaak, and Alcide De Gasperi.[22]"
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I believe the Europeene Union won't survive and dislocate. The creation of the EU creates more problems (immigration, debt...) than advantages (EU companies such as Airbus, somewhat of an economic advantage and rivality with the USA, peace...) in my opinion.
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On June 29 2011 23:03 Maenander wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 22:48 accela wrote:On June 29 2011 22:20 Maenander wrote:On June 29 2011 21:45 accela wrote:On June 29 2011 21:39 Jiddra wrote:On June 29 2011 19:52 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On June 29 2011 19:47 Velr wrote:On June 29 2011 19:39 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On June 29 2011 18:48 Velr wrote:
It's not about cheaper. It's about whats better for the whole EU.
Defaulting Greece would be a horrible example for Portugal, Spain, Italy... What do you think the credit rating of this countries would become if Greece would just "default/take the get out of jail free card"?... Bail them out and they will just need another bailout in 6 months or a year. Probably And your point is? Quit forcing them into ever deeper trouble? Deeper trouble? They faked information that they reported to the euro countries, now they are getting support from EU and the IMF not to crash the euro and the whole country. This is done with demands ,that greece has accepted, to get control of their crashing economy. If they would just let greece crash the country would not be able to take loans for a very long time and be in much deeper trouble. I'm pretty sure that you can hear such BS among others from the mass media but in fact the other euro countries knew about our massive, out of control, debt long ago even from 90'. Yeah, because it is so beneficial to let a soon-to-be-bankrupt country into the Eurozone. Well a decade is not so soon but anyway, yes, obviously it was "ok" cause the debt was stable, we were getting new loans with low interest rates and could repay our old debt. Exactly! Greece had the historic chance to get out of its mess. And what did your politicians do? They created an even bigger mess just to stay in power.
For what chance you talking about? euro? euro actually broadened the gap and increased the need for loans cause we couldn't any more be virtually competitive using a different currency.
Also what politicians did is a huge discussion and it's not only for our politicians. As i said europe knew about greek deficit you like it or not.
Also guess from who we were buying and paying with money from loans  Also guess who was lending us to buy stuff from you ^^'
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This question is maybe stupid but...
Why are you blaming the Banks/Countries that give/gave you Loans so you could afford your way to good social systems, your way to good loans (in the public sector) and the miriads of other stuff while not being serious about collecting taxes, constantly voting for the same incompetent politicians and not your fucking selfs?
Yeah, now the Loans kill you, but it was your friggin stupidity that made these Loans necessary to support Greece as long as it did. At the latest when you joined the Euro someone in your country should have realised whats happening.
But well.. Go on, burn some more cars and do other retarded shit because you spent more money than you earned for decades...
Btw, recent news (translated by google):
The show was reared in the best manner of crime. Are the Greeks agree to tougher austerity package or not, and what if not? wondered the world. And then they will continue to receive financial aid from the EU and if not, then breaks out the global financial chaos?
Chewing fingernails watched the news one. But it was all a gigantic bluff - signaled by the Greek Parliament, the austerity package. Both sides had ultimately no other choice. And these are the reasons:
Would EU, ECB and IMF Greece dropped, then they face the worst of all worlds, a chaotic state bankruptcy. Even the hardest of the hard-liners have not been identified. One of them is Axel Weber, former president of the German Bundesbank and once the favorite for the post of president of the ECB. Weber is in protest resigned from the ECB, because she has exchanged Greek scrap paper for safe ECB loans. In his first interview after his resignation, he said in "Wall Street Journal" now: "Europe needs to seriously consider to vouch for all the Greek debt. Athens only alternative is a chaotic bankruptcy. That would be expensive and could cause another financial crisis. "
Although the Greeks in turn can threaten to terminate their interest payments to the creditor banks. But they were themselves the principal victims. "A large part of the Greek debt lies with the Greeks themselves," said Lorenzo Bini Smaghi, a member of the Governing Board, recently told the "Financial Times". "If Greece goes bankrupt, then the Greek banking system collapses. It would need a massive recapitalization. But who would pay for it "?
The next tranche of aid money flowing
As such, it is logical that the Greek parliament approved the new austerity package, albeit with hanging and strangling. So Greece is the next installment of money (12 billion €) and can get yourself some hope that country will stump up € over the next two years, again around 100 billion euro support money. In return, the unit of currency is temporarily saved, and the international financial system is another, "Lehman moment" have been spared.
The main problems remain
Only: The most important problems remain. That Greece's debt situation is unsustainable in the long term, now the sparrows from the roofs. The growing discontent among the taxpayers and voters in northern Europe over aid to the south does not disappear as well. The financial markets will continue to be suspicious, and even a panic from spreading to other vulnerable EU is therefore still not off the table.
But slow motion is the tricky thing. At a meeting with representatives of major banks in Rome has spoken, in principle, for the orderly resolution and concrete models already discussed. This is an adapted version of the so-called Brady bonds. (All very technical and extremely complicated-see 'Never Mind The Markets. ") In Germany, prominent business representatives should contact with full-page advertisements to the public in order to dampen the hysteria-Greeks. In general, a growing understanding that is neither solved the problem with macho slogans even with quick shots. And above all: It slowly dawns on many that much is at stake.
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what many in this thread need to understand that because our money exists as debt, with interest, we always need new people, companies, countries to make new loans. If this does not happen our moneysupply shrinks, but our dept does not and many people, companies or even countries will default and create a crisis. That, if not dealt with, with huge new loans (new money) will result in crisies like the "great depression" in america. (only dealt with by the huge new loans needed for the New deal and in the end WW2) So we are doomed to work hard enough to create an exponantially growing economy (that can borrow and pay new loans + interest) with borrowed money that only further increases the need to grow and borrow more money. In the short term this creates enourmous wealth, that we in the first world enjoy (Chinas central bank founded in 1983 btw.. look at the growth of china and then on an exponantial curve.. ). But everyone who knows the exponantial graph knows that this cannot work forever. (better and in detail explained in the video i posted 2? pages previous in this thread)
what we see now not only in greece is the politicians and leaders of this world trying to find and create possibilities of new loans to push the natural death of this crazy money system further into the future.
I hope the end comes sooner than later, but in any way it wont' be nice.
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On June 29 2011 23:22 smokeyhoodoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 23:03 Gaga wrote:
@smokeyhoodoo
the EU achieved peace in a continent where in its previous history there was always war (including the 2 World Wars)
that alone makes the EU good enough for me.
central banking and all that comes with it is something completely different. Smaller nations will be enslaved by it in the same way like bigger countries (or unions) will. That claim is absurd and laughable. I could just as easily say it was Nato, or the UN, or the struggle against the Soviet Union, or that it was simply post WW2 politics in general. The EU wasn't really even a significant political entity until the 90's or so. If the EU disappeared today, would there even be a risk of war in Europe? No.
I am not sure you can understand this as you are not European, but the EU ideal really does matter for a lot of Europeans and has done so since the 70s. It greatly increases cohesion and there is pride to be found in building something that can finally unite our continent. Although I hold an Italian passport, what I think of what my rights are and what my place in the world is I regard myself as a European citizen first, and an Italian after.
Also, as mentioned by another poster, the greatest factor you can bring to the table in order to avoid war is economic unity and trade. Without the EU there would be a far higher risk of war in Europe, yes.
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On June 29 2011 20:48 smokeyhoodoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 20:11 zatic wrote:On June 29 2011 19:25 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On June 29 2011 19:05 amatoer wrote:On June 29 2011 18:30 schaf wrote:
yes, EURO will go down if we keep trying to help countries who simply cant get enough economic power to pay us back or at least pay for themselves some day
thank you, CDU. i know why i never voted for u -.- wrong. The Euro will go down if we refuse to help countries that belong to the Eurozone or if we keep on destroying its economy. There is no possibility of banning Greece from the EU, because it would only put the focus onto Spain, Ireland or even Italy. That would be the slow death for the Euro and the EU. And since no country benefits from the Euro and the Schengen Agreement as much as Germany does, so it's our own interest that we keep Greece alive at all cost (because everything else would be multiple times more expensive). So I really cannot understand why the EU politics are so hard and want to cure the greece economy within 1 or 2 years. It obviously doenst work that way since the people are very, very upset, anti-european opinions and partys are getting popular and the economy becomes weaker and weaker. I dont see the problem in a slower progress. I'm talking here about 10 or 15 years of regaining economic strength, managed by greece politicians with european support. Of cause it has to be discussed in a more detailed way, but a slower, lasting growth is better than a quickly foced one. But at the moment, the EU doenst seem to me like one big group with the same goal, it's more like everyone follows his own egoitic ideas and wants to reach common goals with the own best possible benefits. But that's not really the idea behind the EU and it needs politicians who believe in the "european idea" again, to overcome this crisis. How is forcing more debt upon someone with massive debt problems "helping them"? All you're doing is delaying the inevitable collapse, and making it worse in the process. Your "European Idea" is anti-democratic, anti-sovereignty, and pro-slavery. You can't buoy up an inherently unstable system by shoveling in more and more debt. Watch the video above to learn what the monetary system is, posted by your fellow German who happens to be far more sensible. The EU is a lobbyists wet dream, and is the institution by which corporations are conquering your continent. As much as I hate the current Euro "rescue" politics, I'd appreciate people wouldn't spit bullshit about the European idea as a whole like this. Looking at what it has achieved it is absurd to call it "pro-slavery". Hmm, it's achieved a lawmaking body that is unaccountable to the people. Its created a kangaroo court that is entirely under their control that can overrule any law in any country. Its created a system in which a body of lobbyists proposes all laws and whose identities are kept entirely secret to the public. Its created a constitution for itself, with the unique ability to amend itself internally with no consultation of the member states or the people. Its created a lucrative gravy train for those lucky enough to be a part of it. Its created a massive bureaucracy that oversees the details of peoples everyday lives, such as tractor seat size standardization. Very important law there. Its obliterated fish stocks in the UK through the common fisheries policy. Its caused massive wealth redistribution from the poor to the rich. Its centralized a huge amount of power among a select few people. Its created a police force that has the convenience of diplomatic immunity. What positive thing has it achieved?
You should probabily try to clear the fog in your mind a little bit, that drivle is harder to read than it is to imagine someone actually sees things so warped.
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EPT
