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On March 23 2013 17:30 C[h]ili wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2013 05:33 ACrow wrote:(...) It gives estimates about median household wealth, conducted over the years 2010-2011, but it includes real estate. The study blames the low numbers for Germany on a low percentage of Germans owning houses, high taxes (and special costs due to the reunification). Germany: 51,400€ Austria: 76,400€ France: 113,500€ Italy: 163,900€ Spain: 178,300€ According to the study, personal German wealth is one of the lowest in all of Europe. It is a study by the German Central Bank, so take it with a grain of salt (the conspiracy theorists here will probably interpret it as a sign of the evilness of Germany I guess  ). It's not an independent study by the German central bank, but rather part of a coordinated attempt by the ECB to learn more about wealth in the Eurozone. Most central banks, however, have not yet published the results. Some suspect this is because the implications of the survey are politically undesirable, and the preliminary results do indeed support this view. Show nested quote +On March 23 2013 05:43 WhiteDog wrote:On March 23 2013 05:34 Holy_AT wrote:Your ignorance only reflect your own nationalism. I am not a nationalist, as a matter of fact I would dissolve all national states immediatly if I had the power to do so and would form a global ruling body for the whole world, one world one nation one economy one currency. Yet you state that Germany should regroup itself with austria and "some part of benelux"... You want Alsace too maybe ? lol The thing you showed does not mean at all that Germany is poorer or getting fucked by europe : it is not the wealth of the country that is discussed but household wealth. A household, in the context of surveys on social conditions or income such as EU-SILC or the Household budget survey (HBS), is defined as a housekeeping unit or, operationally, as a social unit: having common arrangements; sharing household expenses or daily needs; in a shared common residence. If you look at this + Show Spoiler +Wealth level are indeed very low in Germany, but financial assets and other type of assets are on par : the main problem lies in household wealth. In Italy, as seen in the graph, people bought their house long ago (mostly) and both the real estate and the fact that people own house has been so since a long time. The home ownership rate is very low in Germany: less than 50% overall, and is at its peak of 58% among 55-64-year-olds. Only about half of homeowners in Germany own their homes outright. Among retired households (of 65 and older) that own their main place of residence, about 80% own it outright. In Italy, over 95% of households over 65 own their home without a mortgage. But, as we saw above, a very small share of households in Italy have home debt. Even among young households, over 50% of them own their home outright. In the US, home-secured debt is very common. For those aged 25-64, over 60% still owe money on their house. Only for households of 75 and over do more than 80% not have a mortgage. It has nothing to do with the Europe and everything to do with internal political matters such as what is the state of the real estate, are there any incentive or regulation in relation to this estate, are there any policy pushing toward house building, etc. Maybe there are also cultural explication to that (it is known that some professions in France for exemple prefer renting than owning their house. Teachers is an exemple of that). http://www.socialsituation.eu/monitoring-report/wealth/wealth-distribution-in-more-detail/wealth-levelsAlso there is a statistical evidence : when you talk about median, you cut the population in half and take the statistic for the 50th %. If the wealth is more inequally distributed (which is the case for both Germany and the US in the link posted) the differences will be bigger than what it is (that's why you need both median and average). Don't mess things up, this has nothing to do with Europe, and a lot to do with your policies. See the graph ; the US were way lower than Italy before 2nd WW, but they decided to go for an agressive policy pushing their citizen toward debt to buy themselves houses and now the US are above Italy in household assets (altho they all have debts). Your comment on Alsace is unacceptable and it would suit you well to apologize. Please do not get me wrong, I respect and honor the general quality of your comment, but this single line is offending. As argued above, the full results of the study are not yet published and I do not think it is advisable to start the statistical discussion until they are. Two facts about wealth are clear, however: 1) Private wealth has increased in southern economies since the introduction of the Euro, while it has remained more or less constant in Germany. 2) Private wealth in crisis economies is substantial. Both facts together suggest that there is potential to tax wealth in crisis economies so as to take the funds to solve the sovereign debt crisis. Wealth in - for example - Spain is substantial and this wealth should be the primary source for funds before there is discussion about re-capitalizing the Spanish banking sector using German tax money. However, this is not done and modest attempts to do so such as the property tax in Italy produce massive public outcry. From this, it is clear that the political preference is crisis economies is to first ask northern economies and the ECB for help before touching upon domestic sources. In the end, German tax money is transfered to countries were tax evasion is notoriously high despite the fact that there would be substantial domestic wealth that could be used to solve the crisis. Of course this is only a partial view and there needs to be discussion on the distribution and composition of wealth once the full results are published. But still, it will need to be explained to the German electorate why Germany is taking on debt to make transfers to other nations despite the fact that domestic wealth in those countries is significant.
before you continue arguing based on this study you should understand first what it says.
the study is about the MEDIAN wealth in countries not the AVERAGE wealth. the way you make it sound is like your posted numbers are the average wealth which is just plain wrong.
f.e.: Austria
Average wealth: 265.000
Median wealth: 76.000
Germany should be relatively similar with MUCH higher average wealth compared to a low median because most of the money is accumulated in a very small amount of households.
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On March 25 2013 23:39 Hatsu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2013 23:22 Zystra wrote:
I can't believe they would actually steal peoples money from where they think it is safe. There is no difference between the EU and your common bank robber. The sooner we get out of this union, the better. People think it is safe =/= actually safe. The very same thing could happen tomorrow in the UK and has, in fact happened in the past in other countries outside the euro. It does suck, but the bottom line is that by having more cash than the legal protected amount is, you are exposing yourself to this risk and you are the one to blame if something like this happens.
Not to mention that most other countries don't even have as high and extensive a deposit guarantee that the EU has.
On March 25 2013 23:22 Zystra wrote:
I can't believe they would actually steal peoples money from where they think it is safe. There is no difference between the EU and your common bank robber. The sooner we get out of this union, the better.
Since when do bank robbers give more money than they steal? If anything you should be mad at the banks and Cyprus themselves for their practices.
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On March 25 2013 23:45 Hatsu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2013 23:38 Shival wrote:On March 25 2013 22:50 radiatoren wrote:On March 25 2013 13:03 xDaunt wrote:
So why isn't Cyprus just saying FU to the EU and opting to go into bankruptcy? This is exactly the kind of situation that bankruptcy is for. I can't imagine that the political ramifications of doing so would be worse than seizing private assets like they are contemplating now. saying FU to EU is gonna relieve them of their trade privileges as well as their subsidies. Without those, Cyprus is likely left even more crappy than after taking the sadistic EU penalties. Also, Cyprus is likely to be a net recipient from the EU subsidies. Norway and Iceland contemplate joining the union simply because their trade agreements are necessary and the laws they have to deliver are the same as if they were part of EU, but in their current situation they have very limited say on the construction of those laws (IIRC they have some cooperation with Sweden, Denmark and Finland before each larger EU summit and some contacts with UK politicians and while I am certain that these countries are trying to protect norwegian and icelandic interests, it is not optimal!). The same thing can be said about many of the other countries in europe outside the union. EU has a wall of tarifs and an even bigger moat of subsidies to protect "the inner market". The countries joining the union have to jump when EU says jump for several years to get in to "the promised land". That's simply not true, Norway and Iceland are part of the 'inner market' through EFTA. It doesn't benefit from subsidies, but I don't believe (certain) that Norway will be a net recipient. More likely it will be one of the largest contributors in percentages of national GDP. Not that the large subsidies on farming will be of any benefit to Norway or Iceland anyway... Subsidies aside, Norway and Switzerland pay dearly for the privilege to be in EFTA, and they do not have substantial influence over the EU's policies. They can afford to do this simply because they are small and rich countries and, as a result, the EU is more than happy to take their money. I am not suggesting Norway or Switzerland should join the EU, mind you, I am just clarifying.
I don't believe 188 million euros is equal to paying dearly for the privilege. They get way more money in return because of the trade benefits. Besides if they'd join the EU they would be paying more than 188 million euros, though that also gives them more say in the EU inner circle.
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Russia is going to be mad as shit over all this. A ton of that money being taken is gona come from their own oligarchs.
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Well we all know that the rest of the south is only delaying the inevitable. But again i don't see how this could save banks when it just goads people into a bank run instead.
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On March 25 2013 23:54 Shival wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2013 23:45 Hatsu wrote:On March 25 2013 23:38 Shival wrote:On March 25 2013 22:50 radiatoren wrote:On March 25 2013 13:03 xDaunt wrote:
So why isn't Cyprus just saying FU to the EU and opting to go into bankruptcy? This is exactly the kind of situation that bankruptcy is for. I can't imagine that the political ramifications of doing so would be worse than seizing private assets like they are contemplating now. saying FU to EU is gonna relieve them of their trade privileges as well as their subsidies. Without those, Cyprus is likely left even more crappy than after taking the sadistic EU penalties. Also, Cyprus is likely to be a net recipient from the EU subsidies. Norway and Iceland contemplate joining the union simply because their trade agreements are necessary and the laws they have to deliver are the same as if they were part of EU, but in their current situation they have very limited say on the construction of those laws (IIRC they have some cooperation with Sweden, Denmark and Finland before each larger EU summit and some contacts with UK politicians and while I am certain that these countries are trying to protect norwegian and icelandic interests, it is not optimal!). The same thing can be said about many of the other countries in europe outside the union. EU has a wall of tarifs and an even bigger moat of subsidies to protect "the inner market". The countries joining the union have to jump when EU says jump for several years to get in to "the promised land". That's simply not true, Norway and Iceland are part of the 'inner market' through EFTA. It doesn't benefit from subsidies, but I don't believe (certain) that Norway will be a net recipient. More likely it will be one of the largest contributors in percentages of national GDP. Not that the large subsidies on farming will be of any benefit to Norway or Iceland anyway... Subsidies aside, Norway and Switzerland pay dearly for the privilege to be in EFTA, and they do not have substantial influence over the EU's policies. They can afford to do this simply because they are small and rich countries and, as a result, the EU is more than happy to take their money. I am not suggesting Norway or Switzerland should join the EU, mind you, I am just clarifying. I don't believe 188 million euros is equal to paying dearly for the privilege. They get way more money in return because of the trade benefits. Besides if they'd join the EU they would be paying more than 188 million euros, though that also gives them more say in the EU inner circle.
When I said that they pay dearly, I was not just referring to the fact that they have to significantly contribute to the EU budget but that also, as you rightly point out, that they do not have a say in the EU. In fact it might be argued that not having much influence in the EU decision making is indeed the biggest price they pay.
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On March 26 2013 00:51 Sermokala wrote:
Russia is going to be mad as shit over all this. A ton of that money being taken is gona come from their own oligarchs.
why should russia be mad? this whole "tension" is made up by the media. russia has no interest to bail out the illegal money of its oligarchs. even as an oligarch in russia you have to pay your taxes (normally) and putin would prefer the money of his citizens on a russian bank, instead of cyprus bank, for sure.
of course putin still had to say something on the topic after media brought it up and bashed on russians.
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On March 25 2013 23:48 fleeze wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2013 17:30 C[h]ili wrote:On March 23 2013 05:33 ACrow wrote:(...) It gives estimates about median household wealth, conducted over the years 2010-2011, but it includes real estate. The study blames the low numbers for Germany on a low percentage of Germans owning houses, high taxes (and special costs due to the reunification). Germany: 51,400€ Austria: 76,400€ France: 113,500€ Italy: 163,900€ Spain: 178,300€ According to the study, personal German wealth is one of the lowest in all of Europe. It is a study by the German Central Bank, so take it with a grain of salt (the conspiracy theorists here will probably interpret it as a sign of the evilness of Germany I guess ). It's not an independent study by the German central bank, but rather part of a coordinated attempt by the ECB to learn more about wealth in the Eurozone. Most central banks, however, have not yet published the results. Some suspect this is because the implications of the survey are politically undesirable, and the preliminary results do indeed support this view. On March 23 2013 05:43 WhiteDog wrote:On March 23 2013 05:34 Holy_AT wrote:Your ignorance only reflect your own nationalism. I am not a nationalist, as a matter of fact I would dissolve all national states immediatly if I had the power to do so and would form a global ruling body for the whole world, one world one nation one economy one currency. Yet you state that Germany should regroup itself with austria and "some part of benelux"... You want Alsace too maybe ? lol The thing you showed does not mean at all that Germany is poorer or getting fucked by europe : it is not the wealth of the country that is discussed but household wealth. A household, in the context of surveys on social conditions or income such as EU-SILC or the Household budget survey (HBS), is defined as a housekeeping unit or, operationally, as a social unit: having common arrangements; sharing household expenses or daily needs; in a shared common residence. If you look at this + Show Spoiler +Wealth level are indeed very low in Germany, but financial assets and other type of assets are on par : the main problem lies in household wealth. In Italy, as seen in the graph, people bought their house long ago (mostly) and both the real estate and the fact that people own house has been so since a long time. The home ownership rate is very low in Germany: less than 50% overall, and is at its peak of 58% among 55-64-year-olds. Only about half of homeowners in Germany own their homes outright. Among retired households (of 65 and older) that own their main place of residence, about 80% own it outright. In Italy, over 95% of households over 65 own their home without a mortgage. But, as we saw above, a very small share of households in Italy have home debt. Even among young households, over 50% of them own their home outright. In the US, home-secured debt is very common. For those aged 25-64, over 60% still owe money on their house. Only for households of 75 and over do more than 80% not have a mortgage. It has nothing to do with the Europe and everything to do with internal political matters such as what is the state of the real estate, are there any incentive or regulation in relation to this estate, are there any policy pushing toward house building, etc. Maybe there are also cultural explication to that (it is known that some professions in France for exemple prefer renting than owning their house. Teachers is an exemple of that). http://www.socialsituation.eu/monitoring-report/wealth/wealth-distribution-in-more-detail/wealth-levelsAlso there is a statistical evidence : when you talk about median, you cut the population in half and take the statistic for the 50th %. If the wealth is more inequally distributed (which is the case for both Germany and the US in the link posted) the differences will be bigger than what it is (that's why you need both median and average). Don't mess things up, this has nothing to do with Europe, and a lot to do with your policies. See the graph ; the US were way lower than Italy before 2nd WW, but they decided to go for an agressive policy pushing their citizen toward debt to buy themselves houses and now the US are above Italy in household assets (altho they all have debts). Your comment on Alsace is unacceptable and it would suit you well to apologize. Please do not get me wrong, I respect and honor the general quality of your comment, but this single line is offending. As argued above, the full results of the study are not yet published and I do not think it is advisable to start the statistical discussion until they are. Two facts about wealth are clear, however: 1) Private wealth has increased in southern economies since the introduction of the Euro, while it has remained more or less constant in Germany. 2) Private wealth in crisis economies is substantial. Both facts together suggest that there is potential to tax wealth in crisis economies so as to take the funds to solve the sovereign debt crisis. Wealth in - for example - Spain is substantial and this wealth should be the primary source for funds before there is discussion about re-capitalizing the Spanish banking sector using German tax money. However, this is not done and modest attempts to do so such as the property tax in Italy produce massive public outcry. From this, it is clear that the political preference is crisis economies is to first ask northern economies and the ECB for help before touching upon domestic sources. In the end, German tax money is transfered to countries were tax evasion is notoriously high despite the fact that there would be substantial domestic wealth that could be used to solve the crisis. Of course this is only a partial view and there needs to be discussion on the distribution and composition of wealth once the full results are published. But still, it will need to be explained to the German electorate why Germany is taking on debt to make transfers to other nations despite the fact that domestic wealth in those countries is significant. before you continue arguing based on this study you should understand first what it says. the study is about the MEDIAN wealth in countries not the AVERAGE wealth. the way you make it sound is like your posted numbers are the average wealth which is just plain wrong. f.e.: Austria Average wealth: 265.000 Median wealth: 76.000 Germany should be relatively similar with MUCH higher average wealth compared to a low median because most of the money is accumulated in a very small amount of households.
Yeah, all thing reconsidered, this study is bullshit.
Median household net wealth in Germany is below counterparts in Spain and Italy, according to a survey published last week by the Bundesbank, the German central bank. The median level is the mid-way point where half of a sample or group are below the level and half above. Some 3,565 German households took part in the survey.
The median household in late 2010 had accumulated net wealth -- the sum of total real assets and financial assets minus total liabilities -- of €51,400, which is less than one-third of the net wealth owned by the median households in Spain and Italy who had net wealth of €178,300 and €163,900 respectively.
Property ownership is a key differentiator: 44% of Germans own their own house or apartment. In France, 58% are homeowners; in Italy, 68%; and in Spain, nearly 83%.
Using the average, a Spanish household has a net worth of €285,800 and the average Austrian household €265,000 while German households were at €195,200.
Assets such as pension entitlements and access to free education are not accounted for.
Özgür Öner of the Federal Union of German Housing and Real Estate Associations pointed to the strong rental market in Germany in an interview with Deutsche Welle, the German broadcaster. "That also has to do how, after the Second World War, we met the challenge of providing apartments relatively quickly and that they were also reasonably priced," Öner said.
Economists at the Cologne Institute for Economic Research criticise the methods of collecting data used in the Bundesbank study. The average net worth of households was calculated, but the problem with this approach is that German households have an average of two members. In Spain, the average is 2.7 people. That means that household assets are distributed across more people than in Germany.
A second criticism raised by members of the institute is that the study "compares apples and oranges." The numbers are based on a Europe-wide survey conducted by central banks. While Germany's numbers are from 2010, Spain's were collected in 2008. That was when the property bubble burst in Spain and before a big drop in house prices.
In Germany, the top 10% of households by net worth own 60% of the country's wealth.
More than one region in seven with GDP per capita above 125% of the average…
Also last week, Eurostat, the EU statistics office, reported that the leading regions in the ranking of regional GDP per capita in 2010 were Inner London in the United Kingdom (328% of the average), the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg (266%), Bruxelles/Brussel in Belgium (223%), Hamburg in Germany (203%), Île de France in France and Groningen in the Netherlands (both 180%), Bratislava in Slovakia (176%), Praha in the Czech Republic (172%), Stockholm in Sweden (168%) and Vienna in Austria (165%).
Among the 41 regions exceeding the 125% level, eight were in Germany, five each in the Netherlands and Austria, four in Belgium, three each in Spain, Italy and the United Kingdom, two each in Finland and Sweden, one each in the Czech Republic, Denmark, Ireland, France and Slovakia, as well as the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg.
GDP is not a useful metric for the Irish standard of living because of multinational sector distortions.
Using individual consumption per capita, we are at the same level as Italy.
Eurostat said that it should be noted that in some regions the GDP per capita figures can be significantly influenced by commuter flows (part of Luxembourg's workforce live in neighbouring countries). Net commuter inflows in these regions push up production to a level that could not be achieved by the resident active population on its own. The result is that GDP per capita appears to be overestimated in these regions and underestimated in regions with commuter outflows.
…and one in four below 75%
The lowest regions in the ranking were all in Bulgaria and Romania, with the lowest figures recorded in Severozapaden in Bulgaria (26% of the average), followed by Severen tsentralen in Bulgaria and Nord-Est in Romania (both 29%) and Yuzhen tsentralen in Bulgaria (30%). Among the 68 regions below the 75% level, fifteen were in Poland, seven each in the Czech Republic, Greece and Romania, six in Hungary, five each in Bulgaria and Italy, three each in France (all overseas departments), Portugal and Slovakia, two in the United Kingdom, one each in Spain and Slovenia, as well as Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.
From http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1025755.shtml
I add this so that people understand how this matter is a private political matter for Germany and has nothing to do with the Europe and the situation we are talking about:
According to the researchers, the main reason for the wealth drop is a decline in the market value of owner-occupied property, especially observed in East Germany. Consequently, property is declining as a contributor to wealth, while monetary wealth and assets from private insurances, both of which are naturally more represented among the population with high incomes, are becoming more important.
This development could notably affect older people: With the rising gaps in employment biographies among East Germans and a lower average income in this region – both resulting in lower pension benefits – the low share of wealth in this region could lead to a rise of old-age poverty in the future especially in East Germany.
From http://www.inequalitywatch.eu/spip.php?article111&lang=en
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On March 25 2013 10:15 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2013 17:30 C[h]ili wrote:On March 23 2013 05:33 ACrow wrote:(...) It gives estimates about median household wealth, conducted over the years 2010-2011, but it includes real estate. The study blames the low numbers for Germany on a low percentage of Germans owning houses, high taxes (and special costs due to the reunification). Germany: 51,400€ Austria: 76,400€ France: 113,500€ Italy: 163,900€ Spain: 178,300€ According to the study, personal German wealth is one of the lowest in all of Europe. It is a study by the German Central Bank, so take it with a grain of salt (the conspiracy theorists here will probably interpret it as a sign of the evilness of Germany I guess ). It's not an independent study by the German central bank, but rather part of a coordinated attempt by the ECB to learn more about wealth in the Eurozone. Most central banks, however, have not yet published the results. Some suspect this is because the implications of the survey are politically undesirable, and the preliminary results do indeed support this view. On March 23 2013 05:43 WhiteDog wrote:On March 23 2013 05:34 Holy_AT wrote:Your ignorance only reflect your own nationalism. I am not a nationalist, as a matter of fact I would dissolve all national states immediatly if I had the power to do so and would form a global ruling body for the whole world, one world one nation one economy one currency. Yet you state that Germany should regroup itself with austria and "some part of benelux"... You want Alsace too maybe ? lol The thing you showed does not mean at all that Germany is poorer or getting fucked by europe : it is not the wealth of the country that is discussed but household wealth. A household, in the context of surveys on social conditions or income such as EU-SILC or the Household budget survey (HBS), is defined as a housekeeping unit or, operationally, as a social unit: having common arrangements; sharing household expenses or daily needs; in a shared common residence. If you look at this + Show Spoiler +Wealth level are indeed very low in Germany, but financial assets and other type of assets are on par : the main problem lies in household wealth. In Italy, as seen in the graph, people bought their house long ago (mostly) and both the real estate and the fact that people own house has been so since a long time. The home ownership rate is very low in Germany: less than 50% overall, and is at its peak of 58% among 55-64-year-olds. Only about half of homeowners in Germany own their homes outright. Among retired households (of 65 and older) that own their main place of residence, about 80% own it outright. In Italy, over 95% of households over 65 own their home without a mortgage. But, as we saw above, a very small share of households in Italy have home debt. Even among young households, over 50% of them own their home outright. In the US, home-secured debt is very common. For those aged 25-64, over 60% still owe money on their house. Only for households of 75 and over do more than 80% not have a mortgage. It has nothing to do with the Europe and everything to do with internal political matters such as what is the state of the real estate, are there any incentive or regulation in relation to this estate, are there any policy pushing toward house building, etc. Maybe there are also cultural explication to that (it is known that some professions in France for exemple prefer renting than owning their house. Teachers is an exemple of that). http://www.socialsituation.eu/monitoring-report/wealth/wealth-distribution-in-more-detail/wealth-levelsAlso there is a statistical evidence : when you talk about median, you cut the population in half and take the statistic for the 50th %. If the wealth is more inequally distributed (which is the case for both Germany and the US in the link posted) the differences will be bigger than what it is (that's why you need both median and average). Don't mess things up, this has nothing to do with Europe, and a lot to do with your policies. See the graph ; the US were way lower than Italy before 2nd WW, but they decided to go for an agressive policy pushing their citizen toward debt to buy themselves houses and now the US are above Italy in household assets (altho they all have debts). Your comment on Alsace is unacceptable and it would suit you well to apologize. Please do not get me wrong, I respect and honor the general quality of your comment, but this single line is offending.As argued above, the full results of the study are not yet published and I do not think it is advisable to start the statistical discussion until they are. Two facts about wealth are clear, however: 1) Private wealth has increased in southern economies since the introduction of the Euro, while it has remained more or less constant in Germany. 2) Private wealth in crisis economies is substantial. Both facts together suggest that there is potential to tax wealth in crisis economies so as to take the funds to solve the sovereign debt crisis. Wealth in - for example - Spain is substantial and this wealth should be the primary source for funds before there is discussion about re-capitalizing the Spanish banking sector using German tax money. However, this is not done and modest attempts to do so such as the property tax in Italy produce massive public outcry. From this, it is clear that the political preference is crisis economies is to first ask northern economies and the ECB for help before touching upon domestic sources. In the end, German tax money is transfered to countries were tax evasion is notoriously high despite the fact that there would be substantial domestic wealth that could be used to solve the crisis. Of course this is only a partial view and there needs to be discussion on the distribution and composition of wealth once the full results are published. But still, it will need to be explained to the German electorate why Germany is taking on debt to make transfers to other nations despite the fact that domestic wealth in those countries is significant. It was a joke and I think most people here understood it as such, if not I apology.
http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/zypern-und-co-anti-deutsche-toene-in-der-euro-krise-fotostrecke-94830.html
All of these pictures are jokes as well? I would rather think there is a general lack of respect (for Germany and - more severely - for victims of the 3rd Reich), and this is why we should not make such jokes.
Please note again that I do not want to disregard your argument(s).
Edit: Picture 7 is pretty cool, though.
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On March 26 2013 01:54 C[h]ili wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2013 10:15 WhiteDog wrote:On March 23 2013 17:30 C[h]ili wrote:On March 23 2013 05:33 ACrow wrote:(...) It gives estimates about median household wealth, conducted over the years 2010-2011, but it includes real estate. The study blames the low numbers for Germany on a low percentage of Germans owning houses, high taxes (and special costs due to the reunification). Germany: 51,400€ Austria: 76,400€ France: 113,500€ Italy: 163,900€ Spain: 178,300€ According to the study, personal German wealth is one of the lowest in all of Europe. It is a study by the German Central Bank, so take it with a grain of salt (the conspiracy theorists here will probably interpret it as a sign of the evilness of Germany I guess ). It's not an independent study by the German central bank, but rather part of a coordinated attempt by the ECB to learn more about wealth in the Eurozone. Most central banks, however, have not yet published the results. Some suspect this is because the implications of the survey are politically undesirable, and the preliminary results do indeed support this view. On March 23 2013 05:43 WhiteDog wrote:On March 23 2013 05:34 Holy_AT wrote:Your ignorance only reflect your own nationalism. I am not a nationalist, as a matter of fact I would dissolve all national states immediatly if I had the power to do so and would form a global ruling body for the whole world, one world one nation one economy one currency. Yet you state that Germany should regroup itself with austria and "some part of benelux"... You want Alsace too maybe ? lol The thing you showed does not mean at all that Germany is poorer or getting fucked by europe : it is not the wealth of the country that is discussed but household wealth. A household, in the context of surveys on social conditions or income such as EU-SILC or the Household budget survey (HBS), is defined as a housekeeping unit or, operationally, as a social unit: having common arrangements; sharing household expenses or daily needs; in a shared common residence. If you look at this + Show Spoiler +Wealth level are indeed very low in Germany, but financial assets and other type of assets are on par : the main problem lies in household wealth. In Italy, as seen in the graph, people bought their house long ago (mostly) and both the real estate and the fact that people own house has been so since a long time. The home ownership rate is very low in Germany: less than 50% overall, and is at its peak of 58% among 55-64-year-olds. Only about half of homeowners in Germany own their homes outright. Among retired households (of 65 and older) that own their main place of residence, about 80% own it outright. In Italy, over 95% of households over 65 own their home without a mortgage. But, as we saw above, a very small share of households in Italy have home debt. Even among young households, over 50% of them own their home outright. In the US, home-secured debt is very common. For those aged 25-64, over 60% still owe money on their house. Only for households of 75 and over do more than 80% not have a mortgage. It has nothing to do with the Europe and everything to do with internal political matters such as what is the state of the real estate, are there any incentive or regulation in relation to this estate, are there any policy pushing toward house building, etc. Maybe there are also cultural explication to that (it is known that some professions in France for exemple prefer renting than owning their house. Teachers is an exemple of that). http://www.socialsituation.eu/monitoring-report/wealth/wealth-distribution-in-more-detail/wealth-levelsAlso there is a statistical evidence : when you talk about median, you cut the population in half and take the statistic for the 50th %. If the wealth is more inequally distributed (which is the case for both Germany and the US in the link posted) the differences will be bigger than what it is (that's why you need both median and average). Don't mess things up, this has nothing to do with Europe, and a lot to do with your policies. See the graph ; the US were way lower than Italy before 2nd WW, but they decided to go for an agressive policy pushing their citizen toward debt to buy themselves houses and now the US are above Italy in household assets (altho they all have debts). Your comment on Alsace is unacceptable and it would suit you well to apologize. Please do not get me wrong, I respect and honor the general quality of your comment, but this single line is offending.As argued above, the full results of the study are not yet published and I do not think it is advisable to start the statistical discussion until they are. Two facts about wealth are clear, however: 1) Private wealth has increased in southern economies since the introduction of the Euro, while it has remained more or less constant in Germany. 2) Private wealth in crisis economies is substantial. Both facts together suggest that there is potential to tax wealth in crisis economies so as to take the funds to solve the sovereign debt crisis. Wealth in - for example - Spain is substantial and this wealth should be the primary source for funds before there is discussion about re-capitalizing the Spanish banking sector using German tax money. However, this is not done and modest attempts to do so such as the property tax in Italy produce massive public outcry. From this, it is clear that the political preference is crisis economies is to first ask northern economies and the ECB for help before touching upon domestic sources. In the end, German tax money is transfered to countries were tax evasion is notoriously high despite the fact that there would be substantial domestic wealth that could be used to solve the crisis. Of course this is only a partial view and there needs to be discussion on the distribution and composition of wealth once the full results are published. But still, it will need to be explained to the German electorate why Germany is taking on debt to make transfers to other nations despite the fact that domestic wealth in those countries is significant. It was a joke and I think most people here understood it as such, if not I apology. http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/zypern-und-co-anti-deutsche-toene-in-der-euro-krise-fotostrecke-94830.htmlAll of these pictures are jokes as well? I would rather think there is a general lack of respect (for Germany and - more severely - for victims of the 3rd Reich), and this is why we should not make such jokes. Please note again that I do not want to disregard your argument(s).
there is always too sides of the coin.
popular press is overreacting like it usually does to create some stupid hype. same in germany with the picture of the lazy southerners we are all feeding from our pockets.
just ignore it and move on....
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On March 26 2013 01:12 WhiteDog wrote:
I add this so that people understand how this matter is a private political matter for Germany and has nothing to do with Europe and the situation we are talking about.
I think you are very wrong on this!
The whole 'bail-out crisis solution' hinges on the tacit agreement of the general German population.
Once they become as euro-skeptic as the English for example the shit will hit the fan.
Saying to regular German blue color worker "it is a private matter between yourselves" is like saying "shut up and pay up for my dept now". You can only stress solidarity up to a certain point until it cracks...
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On March 26 2013 02:46 lord_nibbler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 01:12 WhiteDog wrote:
I add this so that people understand how this matter is a private political matter for Germany and has nothing to do with Europe and the situation we are talking about. I think you are very wrong on this! The whole 'bail-out crisis solution' hinges on the tacit agreement of the general German population. Once they become as euro-skeptic as the English for example the shit will hit the fan. Saying to regular German blue color worker "it is a private matter between yourselves" is like saying "shut up and pay up for my dept now". You can only stress solidarity up to a certain point until it cracks...
Do you read what I wrote at all ?
It's about the study saying that private wealth in Germany is in bad shape. There a lot of problem regarding its methodology (as showed in the quotes) and it seems the rather low median private wealth in Germany is due to the inequalities in Germany (which is a private political matter, more redistribution is needed, nothing to do with the EU situation).
I'm not talking at all about Chypre or the European problem at all, I'm saying the study about European private wealth is rather misleading. As I said before, I understand that Germany doesn't want to "pay their debt", just like I understand Greeks and Chypriots' feelings regarding what is happening.
On March 26 2013 01:54 C[h]ili wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2013 10:15 WhiteDog wrote:On March 23 2013 17:30 C[h]ili wrote:On March 23 2013 05:33 ACrow wrote:(...) It gives estimates about median household wealth, conducted over the years 2010-2011, but it includes real estate. The study blames the low numbers for Germany on a low percentage of Germans owning houses, high taxes (and special costs due to the reunification). Germany: 51,400€ Austria: 76,400€ France: 113,500€ Italy: 163,900€ Spain: 178,300€ According to the study, personal German wealth is one of the lowest in all of Europe. It is a study by the German Central Bank, so take it with a grain of salt (the conspiracy theorists here will probably interpret it as a sign of the evilness of Germany I guess ). It's not an independent study by the German central bank, but rather part of a coordinated attempt by the ECB to learn more about wealth in the Eurozone. Most central banks, however, have not yet published the results. Some suspect this is because the implications of the survey are politically undesirable, and the preliminary results do indeed support this view. On March 23 2013 05:43 WhiteDog wrote:On March 23 2013 05:34 Holy_AT wrote:Your ignorance only reflect your own nationalism. I am not a nationalist, as a matter of fact I would dissolve all national states immediatly if I had the power to do so and would form a global ruling body for the whole world, one world one nation one economy one currency. Yet you state that Germany should regroup itself with austria and "some part of benelux"... You want Alsace too maybe ? lol The thing you showed does not mean at all that Germany is poorer or getting fucked by europe : it is not the wealth of the country that is discussed but household wealth. A household, in the context of surveys on social conditions or income such as EU-SILC or the Household budget survey (HBS), is defined as a housekeeping unit or, operationally, as a social unit: having common arrangements; sharing household expenses or daily needs; in a shared common residence. If you look at this + Show Spoiler +Wealth level are indeed very low in Germany, but financial assets and other type of assets are on par : the main problem lies in household wealth. In Italy, as seen in the graph, people bought their house long ago (mostly) and both the real estate and the fact that people own house has been so since a long time. The home ownership rate is very low in Germany: less than 50% overall, and is at its peak of 58% among 55-64-year-olds. Only about half of homeowners in Germany own their homes outright. Among retired households (of 65 and older) that own their main place of residence, about 80% own it outright. In Italy, over 95% of households over 65 own their home without a mortgage. But, as we saw above, a very small share of households in Italy have home debt. Even among young households, over 50% of them own their home outright. In the US, home-secured debt is very common. For those aged 25-64, over 60% still owe money on their house. Only for households of 75 and over do more than 80% not have a mortgage. It has nothing to do with the Europe and everything to do with internal political matters such as what is the state of the real estate, are there any incentive or regulation in relation to this estate, are there any policy pushing toward house building, etc. Maybe there are also cultural explication to that (it is known that some professions in France for exemple prefer renting than owning their house. Teachers is an exemple of that). http://www.socialsituation.eu/monitoring-report/wealth/wealth-distribution-in-more-detail/wealth-levelsAlso there is a statistical evidence : when you talk about median, you cut the population in half and take the statistic for the 50th %. If the wealth is more inequally distributed (which is the case for both Germany and the US in the link posted) the differences will be bigger than what it is (that's why you need both median and average). Don't mess things up, this has nothing to do with Europe, and a lot to do with your policies. See the graph ; the US were way lower than Italy before 2nd WW, but they decided to go for an agressive policy pushing their citizen toward debt to buy themselves houses and now the US are above Italy in household assets (altho they all have debts). Your comment on Alsace is unacceptable and it would suit you well to apologize. Please do not get me wrong, I respect and honor the general quality of your comment, but this single line is offending.As argued above, the full results of the study are not yet published and I do not think it is advisable to start the statistical discussion until they are. Two facts about wealth are clear, however: 1) Private wealth has increased in southern economies since the introduction of the Euro, while it has remained more or less constant in Germany. 2) Private wealth in crisis economies is substantial. Both facts together suggest that there is potential to tax wealth in crisis economies so as to take the funds to solve the sovereign debt crisis. Wealth in - for example - Spain is substantial and this wealth should be the primary source for funds before there is discussion about re-capitalizing the Spanish banking sector using German tax money. However, this is not done and modest attempts to do so such as the property tax in Italy produce massive public outcry. From this, it is clear that the political preference is crisis economies is to first ask northern economies and the ECB for help before touching upon domestic sources. In the end, German tax money is transfered to countries were tax evasion is notoriously high despite the fact that there would be substantial domestic wealth that could be used to solve the crisis. Of course this is only a partial view and there needs to be discussion on the distribution and composition of wealth once the full results are published. But still, it will need to be explained to the German electorate why Germany is taking on debt to make transfers to other nations despite the fact that domestic wealth in those countries is significant. It was a joke and I think most people here understood it as such, if not I apology. http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/zypern-und-co-anti-deutsche-toene-in-der-euro-krise-fotostrecke-94830.htmlAll of these pictures are jokes as well? I would rather think there is a general lack of respect (for Germany and - more severely - for victims of the 3rd Reich), and this is why we should not make such jokes. Please note again that I do not want to disregard your argument(s).
Did you read the post I was responding to ? He was saying that Germany should leave the EU and group itself with "part of benelux, austria and some northern countries". I'm sorry but he asked for it.
About the political problem and the rising nationalism within the EU, I think Fleeze has the best and most mature way of understanding all this : it's sensationalism made by the news paper.
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Or are considering future scenarios where something similar might occur (hi malta!). Markets are overreacting to the quote to be honest, recapitalization through bank levies has always been on the table altho not as explicitly.
Dijsselbloem on the other hand is doing bad in his first major test as head of the eurogroup, lots of amateur hour mistakes.
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On March 26 2013 02:49 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 02:46 lord_nibbler wrote:On March 26 2013 01:12 WhiteDog wrote:
I add this so that people understand how this matter is a private political matter for Germany and has nothing to do with Europe and the situation we are talking about. I think you are very wrong on this! The whole 'bail-out crisis solution' hinges on the tacit agreement of the general German population. Once they become as euro-skeptic as the English for example the shit will hit the fan. Saying to regular German blue color worker "it is a private matter between yourselves" is like saying "shut up and pay up for my dept now". You can only stress solidarity up to a certain point until it cracks... Do you read what I wrote at all ? It's about the study saying that private wealth in Germany is in bad shape. There a lot of problem regarding its methodology (as showed in the quotes) and it seems the rather low median private wealth in Germany is due to the inequalities in Germany (which is a private political matter, more redistribution is needed, nothing to do with the EU situation).
Again, you can not declare it a private matter and move on. Their tax money and understanding is needed, therefore their problems become your problems as well, ignore them and see it all crash down.
That is the irony of today. No one cares what the Greek blue color worker thinks or does. But everybody looks scared at the German blue color worker, hoping that he will not turn 'radical' and starts voting anti-euro parties.
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On March 26 2013 02:49 WhiteDog wrote:
...
About the political problem and the rising nationalism within the EU, I think Fleeze has the best and most mature way of understanding all this : it's sensationalism made by the news paper.
Sorry, but I had to smile at this. If you read Fleeze's statements in this thread, you'll see a lot of hyperventilating ad-hominem attacks by him, he is one of the more immature posters in the last few pages.
I agree that sensationalism by the various national medias is a big problem* - but citing him doesn't really strengthen the point.
*(we'd need independent Europe wide news coverage, but we don't even have a common language, so that's pretty hard to accomplish right now)
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On March 26 2013 03:16 lord_nibbler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 02:49 WhiteDog wrote:On March 26 2013 02:46 lord_nibbler wrote:On March 26 2013 01:12 WhiteDog wrote:
I add this so that people understand how this matter is a private political matter for Germany and has nothing to do with Europe and the situation we are talking about. I think you are very wrong on this! The whole 'bail-out crisis solution' hinges on the tacit agreement of the general German population. Once they become as euro-skeptic as the English for example the shit will hit the fan. Saying to regular German blue color worker "it is a private matter between yourselves" is like saying "shut up and pay up for my dept now". You can only stress solidarity up to a certain point until it cracks... Do you read what I wrote at all ? It's about the study saying that private wealth in Germany is in bad shape. There a lot of problem regarding its methodology (as showed in the quotes) and it seems the rather low median private wealth in Germany is due to the inequalities in Germany (which is a private political matter, more redistribution is needed, nothing to do with the EU situation). Again, you can not declare it a private matter and move on. Their tax money and understanding is needed, therefore their problems become your problems as well, ignore them and see it all crash down. That is the irony of today. No one cares what the Greek blue color worker thinks or does. But everybody looks scared at the German blue color worker, hoping that he will not turn 'radical' and starts voting anti-euro parties.
it is a private german matter because the study will show that german taxation is lacking equality big time. the "winners" of the euro crisis (aka big exporting companys and wealthy people) pay next to nothing while everybody else has to pay the rest.
that's also why the study isn't released in germany media. read the bundesbank analysis here
some money quotes (keep in mind this is a pretty conservative institute):
The interpretation of the data now available will require careful analysis in the future.However, it is already worth highlighting at this stage that not all claims to assets of households are included in the PHF data.In particular, claims on the statutory social insurance system are not covered by the PHF data, whereas private pension insurance and life insurance policies have been taken into consideration.It is to be expected that this would result in the overstatement of the uneven distribution of wealth.On a more general level, statements relating to the private wealth of households only offer a limited insight into the living standard or wealth of a society.This applies, in particular, when making international comparisons.Other sectors such as the state, for example, can equally have positive or negative net wealth.
the majority of German households, around 73% for Germany as a whole, have a "below-average" net wealth. Therefore, both the mean and median values of net wealth in Germany are lower than in other large countries in the euro area, for which comparable data are available.
The richest 10% of households (based on the respective definition) account for 55.7% of the total gross wealth and 59.2% of the total net wealth of all households.
In western Germany, the median value of net wealth stands at € 78,900, whereas in eastern Germany it amounts to € 21,400
edit:
On March 26 2013 03:27 ACrow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 02:49 WhiteDog wrote:
...
About the political problem and the rising nationalism within the EU, I think Fleeze has the best and most mature way of understanding all this : it's sensationalism made by the news paper. Sorry, but I had to smile at this. If you read Fleeze's statements in this thread, you'll see a lot of hyperventilating ad-hominem attacks by him, he is one of the more immature posters in the last few pages. I agree that sensationalism by the various national medias is a big problem* - but citing him doesn't really strengthen the point. *(we'd need independent Europe wide news coverage, but we don't even have a common language, so that's pretty hard to accomplish right now)
you're still angry? maybe get some better arguments, hmm?
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And now we have the "Template retraction".
Statement by the Eurogroup President on Cyprus 25/03/2013 - Statement
Cyprus is a specific case with exceptional challenges which required the bail-in measures we have agreed upon yesterday.
Macro-economic adjustment programmes are tailor-made to the situation of the country concerned and no models or templates are used.
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On March 26 2013 02:49 WhiteDog wrote:Did you read the post I was responding to ? He was saying that Germany should leave the EU and group itself with "part of benelux, austria and some northern countries". I'm sorry but he asked for it.
Oh man, why does everybody think I am an idiot?
Benelux is a group of countries, so forming a monetary union between, say, Netherlands, Austria and Finland would fit his definition. While I am not a fan of this proposal, this is something that can be discussed by reasonable people (some people argue that splitting the monetary union in a "southern" and a "northern" half would help solving the crisis, for instance because the former could depreciate against the latter).
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On March 26 2013 03:16 lord_nibbler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 02:49 WhiteDog wrote:On March 26 2013 02:46 lord_nibbler wrote:On March 26 2013 01:12 WhiteDog wrote:
I add this so that people understand how this matter is a private political matter for Germany and has nothing to do with Europe and the situation we are talking about. I think you are very wrong on this! The whole 'bail-out crisis solution' hinges on the tacit agreement of the general German population. Once they become as euro-skeptic as the English for example the shit will hit the fan. Saying to regular German blue color worker "it is a private matter between yourselves" is like saying "shut up and pay up for my dept now". You can only stress solidarity up to a certain point until it cracks... Do you read what I wrote at all ? It's about the study saying that private wealth in Germany is in bad shape. There a lot of problem regarding its methodology (as showed in the quotes) and it seems the rather low median private wealth in Germany is due to the inequalities in Germany (which is a private political matter, more redistribution is needed, nothing to do with the EU situation). Again, you can not declare it a private matter and move on. Their tax money and understanding is needed, therefore their problems become your problems as well, ignore them and see it all crash down. That is the irony of today. No one cares what the Greek blue color worker thinks or does. But everybody looks scared at the German blue color worker, hoping that he will not turn 'radical' and starts voting anti-euro parties.
I don't know what you are talking about. I think you did not understand me at all.
I am not talking about political matters, just about economics. From an economical perspective, the euro does not impact on the inequal distribution of wealth in Germany. I'm not saying it does not concern me, I'm saying it's a problem that has its source within German's policy over the last 10 to 20 years.
On March 26 2013 03:27 ACrow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 02:49 WhiteDog wrote:
...
About the political problem and the rising nationalism within the EU, I think Fleeze has the best and most mature way of understanding all this : it's sensationalism made by the news paper. Sorry, but I had to smile at this. If you read Fleeze's statements in this thread, you'll see a lot of hyperventilating ad-hominem attacks by him, he is one of the more immature posters in the last few pages. I agree that sensationalism by the various national medias is a big problem* - but citing him doesn't really strengthen the point. *(we'd need independent Europe wide news coverage, but we don't even have a common language, so that's pretty hard to accomplish right now)
I don't really cite him for the sake of it, I cite him because I agree with this statement:
There is always too sides of the coin.
popular press is overreacting like it usually does to create some stupid hype. same in germany with the picture of the lazy southerners we are all feeding from our pockets.
just ignore it and move on....
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.socialsituation.eu/monitoring-report/images/503_totalassetscomposition_horizontal.png)
