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On March 23 2013 06:49 C[h]ili wrote:
Dude, we don't need any lessons in economics. In contrast, we understand quite well the nexus of economic interest and mechanism that is channeling German wealth into southern economies. From the beginning, we should never have given a single Euro to the ESFS and we should never have accepted the ECB to erode lending standards.
Quite obviously, the southern economies have prefered to exploit us rather than to reform. Why inducing painful reform if you can find some stupid German that is paying for you? I am so sick of it. People in this thread writing shit about we hand over money just to exploit their countries (how is this even supposed to work?), or shit about how Germany is exploiting poor France due to the trade surplus (just because we have seen our real wages drop over the last decade and work more than 35 hours a week).
In return, everybody is hating on Germany. I am ok with helping neighbours but the way this crisis is turning out, will we ever get help in return if we are in need some day?
No of course not. They are talking about 10 billion for 1 million people in Cyprus. 300.000 Icelanders also costed the IMF several billions. Who do you think is able to pay up let's just throw a speculative number, 1 trillion, for 80 million germans? No one can, so the will to do so or notwould be irrelevant, it would simply not be possible. And please, you should stop the whine a bit, in the end we are responsible for voting like we did. If we are unsatisfied with the results we got, we should blame ourselves.
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Well, the measures that threaten to cost us the most have been implemented by the ECB, by a decision body were Cyprus has as much say as Germany. How is this related to my vote in the general German election 2009?
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On March 23 2013 06:07 WhiteDog wrote:
Here is the thing I have a real problem with : if you search for numbers, and don't try to dig up a little to understand those numbers, you will always find excuses for a nationalist behaviors regarding Europe. I understand that Germany is under a lot of stress, like most of the Europe, but I suggest German and Greek (in this topic obviously) to try to learn a little about economy and not jump on any given number to reassure themselves they are indeed getting "fucked in the but" and are indeed the "poorest citizen in europe" because it's just plain wrong (well for Germany at least, Greece is another problem).
I agree, there is a big surge of unfortunate nationalism since the beginning of the crisis.
I see only two directions this all could take:
a) we all get our shit together, and really unify to become a true Union: equal opportunities, similar pay and working hours, same pension, same tax rates, same level of corruption (preferably none, lol), same fiscal politics, euro bonds, shared debt, one shared democratic government (really democratic, not the sorry excuse that is the commission) with governing authority elected by one person-one vote principle, have some legit independent media that is covering the whole of europe instead of having national medias that lead to bias, et cetera.
b) the Union breaks apart in some form or another, hopefully only the currency union.
Going on like we have done the last years is pure shit. Greece is suffering under austerity measures, the rest of southern Europe is on the brink of being infected or is already, northern Europe is accumulating debt trying to help, Germany is being hated on for being the one trying to coordinate countermeasures. It can't go on like this or it will lead to disaster (hell, I'm somewhat afraid already to go on vacation in Greece with my wife).
I'd absolutely love for option a) to become true. But with any sense of reality, the chances for it are abysmally slim. So, how sad it may be, go for option b) as soon as possible to salvage as much as possible before it is too late. Maybe it can still be done by only dissolving the common currency.
my 2 cents
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C[h]ili just stop it.
With your posts you have made quite clear that you understand this problem only rudimentarily.
You have released your anger and that should be that.
Feel free to come back here after you made some effort to get some inside into the topic.
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On March 23 2013 06:49 C[h]ili wrote:
Dude, we don't need any lessons in economics. In contrast, we understand quite well the nexus of economic interest and mechanism that is channeling German wealth into southern economies. From the beginning, we should never have given a single Euro to the ESFS and we should never have accepted the ECB to erode lending standards.
Quite obviously, the southern economies have prefered to exploit us rather than to reform. Why inducing painful reform if you can find some stupid German that is paying for you? I am so sick of it. People in this thread writing shit about we hand over money just to exploit their countries (how is this even supposed to work?), or shit about how Germany is exploiting poor France due to the trade surplus (just because we have seen our real wages drop over the last decade and work more than 35 hours a week).
In return, everybody is hating on Germany. I am ok with helping neighbours but the way this crisis is turning out, will we ever get help in return if we are in need some day?
The Marshall plan was like one of the most important investment in history, and Germany profited from it, just saying.
I'm not talking about the trade surplus discussion at all in this case. But when people imply Germany is one of the poorest european country, poorest than "southern countries", please I just want to say stop talking and start reading.
On March 23 2013 07:03 ACrow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2013 06:07 WhiteDog wrote:
Here is the thing I have a real problem with : if you search for numbers, and don't try to dig up a little to understand those numbers, you will always find excuses for a nationalist behaviors regarding Europe. I understand that Germany is under a lot of stress, like most of the Europe, but I suggest German and Greek (in this topic obviously) to try to learn a little about economy and not jump on any given number to reassure themselves they are indeed getting "fucked in the but" and are indeed the "poorest citizen in europe" because it's just plain wrong (well for Germany at least, Greece is another problem). I agree, there is a big surge of unfortunate nationalism since the begin of the crisis. I see only two directions this all could take: a) we all get our shit together, and really unify to become a true Union: equal opportunities, similar pay and working hours, same pension, same tax rates, same level of corruption (preferably none, lol), same fiscal politics, euro bonds, shared debt, one shared democratic government (really democratic, not the sorry excuse that is the commission) with governing authority elected by one person-one vote principle, have some legit independent media that is covering the whole of europe instead of having national medias that lead to bias, et cetera. b) the Union breaks apart in some form or another, hopefully only the currency union. Going on like we have done the last years is pure shit. Greece is suffering under austerity measures, the rest of southern Europe is on the brink of being infected or is already, northern Europe is accumulating debt trying to help, Germany is being hated on for being the one trying to coordinate countermeasures. It can't go on like this or it will lead to disaster (hell, I'm somewhat afraid already to go on vacation in Greece with my wife). I'd absolutely love for option a) to become true. But with any sense of reality, the chances for it are abysmally slim. So, how sad it may be, go for option b) as soon as possible to salvage as much as possible before it is too late. Maybe it can still be done by only dissolving the common currency. my 2 cents
I'm all behind you for a) but it's really difficult to make such huge step considering that people are really attached to their nation.
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On March 23 2013 07:00 C[h]ili wrote:
Well, the measures that threaten to cost us the most have been implemented by the ECB, by a decision body were Cyprus has as much say as Germany. How is this related to my vote in the general German election 2009?
The course of the ECB gets supported by both major parties right now. Both see the common currency as absolutely without alternative. The majority vote supported this decision, so yes we as society want that ( I am against it btw, I voted the christian party and some marxist leninist nutjobs in the last two elections). As long as it stays that way we cannot really complain, but I think it is nice that young people start to question this course of politics.
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On March 23 2013 07:03 ACrow wrote:
b) the Union breaks apart in some form or another, hopefully only the currency union.
ACrow you have to realize that abolishing the Euro does not solve the dept problem. The dept remain regardless in what currency it is paid back.
So, Cyprus could leave the Euro next month and go back to the Cypriot Pound. Their dept would still have to be paid in Euro.
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On March 23 2013 07:03 ACrow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2013 06:07 WhiteDog wrote:
Here is the thing I have a real problem with : if you search for numbers, and don't try to dig up a little to understand those numbers, you will always find excuses for a nationalist behaviors regarding Europe. I understand that Germany is under a lot of stress, like most of the Europe, but I suggest German and Greek (in this topic obviously) to try to learn a little about economy and not jump on any given number to reassure themselves they are indeed getting "fucked in the but" and are indeed the "poorest citizen in europe" because it's just plain wrong (well for Germany at least, Greece is another problem). I agree, there is a big surge of unfortunate nationalism since the begin of the crisis. I see only two directions this all could take: a) we all get our shit together, and really unify to become a true Union: equal opportunities, similar pay and working hours, same pension, same tax rates, same level of corruption (preferably none, lol), same fiscal politics, euro bonds, shared debt, one shared democratic government (really democratic, not the sorry excuse that is the commission) with governing authority elected by one person-one vote principle, have some legit independent media that is covering the whole of europe instead of having national medias that lead to bias, et cetera. b) the Union breaks apart in some form or another, hopefully only the currency union. Going on like we have done the last years is pure shit. Greece is suffering under austerity measures, the rest of southern Europe is on the brink of being infected or is already, northern Europe is accumulating debt trying to help, Germany is being hated on for being the one trying to coordinate countermeasures. It can't go on like this or it will lead to disaster (hell, I'm somewhat afraid already to go on vacation in Greece with my wife). I'd absolutely love for option a) to become true. But with any sense of reality, the chances for it are abysmally slim. So, how sad it may be, go for option b) as soon as possible to salvage as much as possible before it is too late. Maybe it can still be done by only dissolving the common currency. my 2 cents
Unfortunately there is a 3e option. Muddle along postponing the inevitable that keeps coming back into our face harder and harder until everything gos to hell. And it seems to be the route that is being taken atm.
If its because of shortsightedness by politicians who only care about there next election or because we as the general public are missing something but ever since this crisis hit Greece we have been pushing from 1 temporary thing to the next.
If we had let the system fall with Greece the economy in the entire EU would have gotten wrecked but we would have been able to rebuild and work with a relatively clean slate. Yes it would have hurt but now its Cyprus. Italy will fall, Spain will fall and we will be still be in the same problem but now compounded by months and months of debt incurred trying to stop an out of control train. The wreck is still going to happen but it will only be worse now.
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On March 23 2013 07:14 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2013 07:03 ACrow wrote:On March 23 2013 06:07 WhiteDog wrote:
Here is the thing I have a real problem with : if you search for numbers, and don't try to dig up a little to understand those numbers, you will always find excuses for a nationalist behaviors regarding Europe. I understand that Germany is under a lot of stress, like most of the Europe, but I suggest German and Greek (in this topic obviously) to try to learn a little about economy and not jump on any given number to reassure themselves they are indeed getting "fucked in the but" and are indeed the "poorest citizen in europe" because it's just plain wrong (well for Germany at least, Greece is another problem). I agree, there is a big surge of unfortunate nationalism since the begin of the crisis. I see only two directions this all could take: a) we all get our shit together, and really unify to become a true Union: equal opportunities, similar pay and working hours, same pension, same tax rates, same level of corruption (preferably none, lol), same fiscal politics, euro bonds, shared debt, one shared democratic government (really democratic, not the sorry excuse that is the commission) with governing authority elected by one person-one vote principle, have some legit independent media that is covering the whole of europe instead of having national medias that lead to bias, et cetera. b) the Union breaks apart in some form or another, hopefully only the currency union. Going on like we have done the last years is pure shit. Greece is suffering under austerity measures, the rest of southern Europe is on the brink of being infected or is already, northern Europe is accumulating debt trying to help, Germany is being hated on for being the one trying to coordinate countermeasures. It can't go on like this or it will lead to disaster (hell, I'm somewhat afraid already to go on vacation in Greece with my wife). I'd absolutely love for option a) to become true. But with any sense of reality, the chances for it are abysmally slim. So, how sad it may be, go for option b) as soon as possible to salvage as much as possible before it is too late. Maybe it can still be done by only dissolving the common currency. my 2 cents Unfortunately there is a 3e option. Muddle along postponing the inevitable that keeps coming back into our face harder and harder until everything gos to hell. And it seems to be the route that is being taken atm. If its because of shortsightedness by politicians who only care about there next election or because we as the general public are missing something but ever since this crisis hit Greece we have been pushing from 1 temporary thing to the next. If we had let the system fall with Greece the economy in the entire EU would have gotten wrecked but we would have been able to rebuild and work with a relatively clean slate. Yes it would have hurt but now its Cyprus. Italy will fall, Spain will fall and we will be still be in the same problem but now compounded by months and months of debt incurred trying to stop an out of control train. The wreck is still going to happen but it will only be worse now.
This post sums up how I see the situation, too. unfortunately nobody is brave enough to just say: fuck it, cut the losses and do a restart with national currencies. People tend to forget that Europe as an institution existed long before the Euro, it may very well continue to exist long after the common currency is gone.
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On March 23 2013 07:19 AngryMag wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2013 07:14 Gorsameth wrote:On March 23 2013 07:03 ACrow wrote:On March 23 2013 06:07 WhiteDog wrote:
Here is the thing I have a real problem with : if you search for numbers, and don't try to dig up a little to understand those numbers, you will always find excuses for a nationalist behaviors regarding Europe. I understand that Germany is under a lot of stress, like most of the Europe, but I suggest German and Greek (in this topic obviously) to try to learn a little about economy and not jump on any given number to reassure themselves they are indeed getting "fucked in the but" and are indeed the "poorest citizen in europe" because it's just plain wrong (well for Germany at least, Greece is another problem). I agree, there is a big surge of unfortunate nationalism since the begin of the crisis. I see only two directions this all could take: a) we all get our shit together, and really unify to become a true Union: equal opportunities, similar pay and working hours, same pension, same tax rates, same level of corruption (preferably none, lol), same fiscal politics, euro bonds, shared debt, one shared democratic government (really democratic, not the sorry excuse that is the commission) with governing authority elected by one person-one vote principle, have some legit independent media that is covering the whole of europe instead of having national medias that lead to bias, et cetera. b) the Union breaks apart in some form or another, hopefully only the currency union. Going on like we have done the last years is pure shit. Greece is suffering under austerity measures, the rest of southern Europe is on the brink of being infected or is already, northern Europe is accumulating debt trying to help, Germany is being hated on for being the one trying to coordinate countermeasures. It can't go on like this or it will lead to disaster (hell, I'm somewhat afraid already to go on vacation in Greece with my wife). I'd absolutely love for option a) to become true. But with any sense of reality, the chances for it are abysmally slim. So, how sad it may be, go for option b) as soon as possible to salvage as much as possible before it is too late. Maybe it can still be done by only dissolving the common currency. my 2 cents Unfortunately there is a 3e option. Muddle along postponing the inevitable that keeps coming back into our face harder and harder until everything gos to hell. And it seems to be the route that is being taken atm. If its because of shortsightedness by politicians who only care about there next election or because we as the general public are missing something but ever since this crisis hit Greece we have been pushing from 1 temporary thing to the next. If we had let the system fall with Greece the economy in the entire EU would have gotten wrecked but we would have been able to rebuild and work with a relatively clean slate. Yes it would have hurt but now its Cyprus. Italy will fall, Spain will fall and we will be still be in the same problem but now compounded by months and months of debt incurred trying to stop an out of control train. The wreck is still going to happen but it will only be worse now. This post sums up how I see the situation, too. unfortunately nobody is brave enough to just say: fuck it, cut the losses and do a restart with national currencies. People tend to forget that Europe as an institution existed long before the Euro, it may very well continue to exist long after the common currency is gone.
Because most people are actually lucid about what the europe gives them. Why would Germany leave the EU zone ? Because they have to "help" other european nation in needs ? They are accumulating a huge trade surplus and the underevalued currency is not innocent in that.
It's the same for Greece, or Italy : they are suffering from the overevalued euro (for them) but they also gain a lot through the europe (regional trade, help from the EU zone, tight relationship with the biggest market in the world).
The Europe, as it is, is certainly a bad for most countries that are in it, as it's architecture is half done, but can anyone here actually believe Germany, France, Austria or any other country would not face a deep crisis of their condition of living if they were not integrated within the EU, facing the concurrence of newly developped countries like India, China, etc.
I agree that politicians are, as always, cowards, who can't take resolutions, but they also have good reasons for not doing anything. Also, don't delude yourself about the current German economy, it's not all great, the demography being a great problem for the 10 to 20 next years, and the lack of redistribution and investment in the last year is concerning. I'm not exactly knowledgeable on the question so I will not say more.
I'm all in for a temporary removal from the EU zone for some countries that needs their own monetary policy to face the crisis, but for Germany, France or even Italy, the three biggest countries in the EU zone, this is just dumb.
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On March 23 2013 07:11 AngryMag wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2013 07:00 C[h]ili wrote:
Well, the measures that threaten to cost us the most have been implemented by the ECB, by a decision body were Cyprus has as much say as Germany. How is this related to my vote in the general German election 2009? The course of the ECB gets supported by both major parties right now. Both see the common currency as absolutely without alternative. The majority vote supported this decision, so yes we as society want that ( I am against it btw, I voted the christian party and some marxist leninist nutjobs in the last two elections). As long as it stays that way we cannot really complain, but I think it is nice that young people start to question this course of politics.
That is a valid point! I still find it important to note that Mr Stark and Mr Weber resigned because of the ECB's policies, making it quite evident that they were against German interest.
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On March 23 2013 07:26 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2013 07:19 AngryMag wrote:On March 23 2013 07:14 Gorsameth wrote:On March 23 2013 07:03 ACrow wrote:On March 23 2013 06:07 WhiteDog wrote:
Here is the thing I have a real problem with : if you search for numbers, and don't try to dig up a little to understand those numbers, you will always find excuses for a nationalist behaviors regarding Europe. I understand that Germany is under a lot of stress, like most of the Europe, but I suggest German and Greek (in this topic obviously) to try to learn a little about economy and not jump on any given number to reassure themselves they are indeed getting "fucked in the but" and are indeed the "poorest citizen in europe" because it's just plain wrong (well for Germany at least, Greece is another problem). I agree, there is a big surge of unfortunate nationalism since the begin of the crisis. I see only two directions this all could take: a) we all get our shit together, and really unify to become a true Union: equal opportunities, similar pay and working hours, same pension, same tax rates, same level of corruption (preferably none, lol), same fiscal politics, euro bonds, shared debt, one shared democratic government (really democratic, not the sorry excuse that is the commission) with governing authority elected by one person-one vote principle, have some legit independent media that is covering the whole of europe instead of having national medias that lead to bias, et cetera. b) the Union breaks apart in some form or another, hopefully only the currency union. Going on like we have done the last years is pure shit. Greece is suffering under austerity measures, the rest of southern Europe is on the brink of being infected or is already, northern Europe is accumulating debt trying to help, Germany is being hated on for being the one trying to coordinate countermeasures. It can't go on like this or it will lead to disaster (hell, I'm somewhat afraid already to go on vacation in Greece with my wife). I'd absolutely love for option a) to become true. But with any sense of reality, the chances for it are abysmally slim. So, how sad it may be, go for option b) as soon as possible to salvage as much as possible before it is too late. Maybe it can still be done by only dissolving the common currency. my 2 cents Unfortunately there is a 3e option. Muddle along postponing the inevitable that keeps coming back into our face harder and harder until everything gos to hell. And it seems to be the route that is being taken atm. If its because of shortsightedness by politicians who only care about there next election or because we as the general public are missing something but ever since this crisis hit Greece we have been pushing from 1 temporary thing to the next. If we had let the system fall with Greece the economy in the entire EU would have gotten wrecked but we would have been able to rebuild and work with a relatively clean slate. Yes it would have hurt but now its Cyprus. Italy will fall, Spain will fall and we will be still be in the same problem but now compounded by months and months of debt incurred trying to stop an out of control train. The wreck is still going to happen but it will only be worse now. This post sums up how I see the situation, too. unfortunately nobody is brave enough to just say: fuck it, cut the losses and do a restart with national currencies. People tend to forget that Europe as an institution existed long before the Euro, it may very well continue to exist long after the common currency is gone. Because most people are actually lucid about what the europe gives them. Why would Germany leave the EU zone ? Because they have to "help" other european nation in needs ? They are accumulating a huge trade surplus and the underevalued currency is not innocent in that. It's the same for Greece, or Italy : they are suffering from the overevalued euro (for them) but they also gain a lot through the europe (regional trade, help from the EU zone, tight relationship with the biggest market in the world). The Europe, as it is, is certainly a bad for most countries that are in it, as it's architecture is half done, but can anyone here actually believe Germany, France, Austria or any other country would not face a deep crisis of their condition of living if they were not integrated within the EU, facing the concurrence of newly developped countries like India, China, etc. I agree that politicians are, as always, cowards, who can't take resolutions, but they also have good reasons for not doing anything.
Yeah I am aware of the negative consequences, but let's face it: complete fiscal unions will neither be accepted in the north nor in the south of Europe, atleast not in the long term. With this fiscal union basically halfway done, national interest will always remain the dominant force behind the actions of the involved national actors. We will run from crisis to crisis, after Cyprus it will be either Spain or Italy which gets in trouble. What about Bulgaria or Romania, Portugal still questionable etc. There will never be an end to it.
For me it seems, admitting the failure of this half measure is overdue. We ( from my northern euro perspective) should go back before wasting additional multi billion dollar bailouts with the very possible result of the thing still collapsing in the end. What will we have achieved then, apart from poisoning the political climate?
Personally I don't have a problem with competition, we didn't starve before the Euro either. Of course there will be a loss in political influence. I would be very happy to change to a swiss or swedish neutrality approach ala "don't care", these countries have excellent economic relations with other countries while remaining neutral. I would prefer that.
EDIT: you seem to be mixing the EU as institution with the common currency, I really don't agree with that (might be just wrong understanding). As stated a common market and all this other achievements started long before the Euro, so I don't think they are dependant from each other, common market will exist in the future with or without Euro.
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On March 23 2013 07:26 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2013 07:19 AngryMag wrote:On March 23 2013 07:14 Gorsameth wrote:On March 23 2013 07:03 ACrow wrote:On March 23 2013 06:07 WhiteDog wrote:
Here is the thing I have a real problem with : if you search for numbers, and don't try to dig up a little to understand those numbers, you will always find excuses for a nationalist behaviors regarding Europe. I understand that Germany is under a lot of stress, like most of the Europe, but I suggest German and Greek (in this topic obviously) to try to learn a little about economy and not jump on any given number to reassure themselves they are indeed getting "fucked in the but" and are indeed the "poorest citizen in europe" because it's just plain wrong (well for Germany at least, Greece is another problem). I agree, there is a big surge of unfortunate nationalism since the begin of the crisis. I see only two directions this all could take: a) we all get our shit together, and really unify to become a true Union: equal opportunities, similar pay and working hours, same pension, same tax rates, same level of corruption (preferably none, lol), same fiscal politics, euro bonds, shared debt, one shared democratic government (really democratic, not the sorry excuse that is the commission) with governing authority elected by one person-one vote principle, have some legit independent media that is covering the whole of europe instead of having national medias that lead to bias, et cetera. b) the Union breaks apart in some form or another, hopefully only the currency union. Going on like we have done the last years is pure shit. Greece is suffering under austerity measures, the rest of southern Europe is on the brink of being infected or is already, northern Europe is accumulating debt trying to help, Germany is being hated on for being the one trying to coordinate countermeasures. It can't go on like this or it will lead to disaster (hell, I'm somewhat afraid already to go on vacation in Greece with my wife). I'd absolutely love for option a) to become true. But with any sense of reality, the chances for it are abysmally slim. So, how sad it may be, go for option b) as soon as possible to salvage as much as possible before it is too late. Maybe it can still be done by only dissolving the common currency. my 2 cents Unfortunately there is a 3e option. Muddle along postponing the inevitable that keeps coming back into our face harder and harder until everything gos to hell. And it seems to be the route that is being taken atm. If its because of shortsightedness by politicians who only care about there next election or because we as the general public are missing something but ever since this crisis hit Greece we have been pushing from 1 temporary thing to the next. If we had let the system fall with Greece the economy in the entire EU would have gotten wrecked but we would have been able to rebuild and work with a relatively clean slate. Yes it would have hurt but now its Cyprus. Italy will fall, Spain will fall and we will be still be in the same problem but now compounded by months and months of debt incurred trying to stop an out of control train. The wreck is still going to happen but it will only be worse now. This post sums up how I see the situation, too. unfortunately nobody is brave enough to just say: fuck it, cut the losses and do a restart with national currencies. People tend to forget that Europe as an institution existed long before the Euro, it may very well continue to exist long after the common currency is gone. Because most people are actually lucid about what the europe gives them. Why would Germany leave the EU zone ? Because they have to "help" other european nation in needs ? They are accumulating a huge trade surplus and the underevalued currency is not innocent in that. It's the same for Greece, or Italy : they are suffering from the overevalued euro (for them) but they also gain a lot through the europe (regional trade, help from the EU zone, tight relationship with the biggest market in the world). The Europe, as it is, is certainly a bad for most countries that are in it, as it's architecture is half done, but can anyone here actually believe Germany, France, Austria or any other country would not face a deep crisis of their condition of living if they were not integrated within the EU, facing the concurrence of newly developped countries like India, China, etc. I agree that politicians are, as always, cowards, who can't take resolutions, but they also have good reasons for not doing anything.
Where would we be?
We would probably be worse off before the crisis started, there were advantages in trade and cooperation
Would we be in a crisis? Yes ofc we would. thats the downside of the global economy. everyone is effected.
Would we be in a much better position to combat the crisis? Definitely.
As for competition with India and China? I fail to see how the EU has helped in that. Were a developed western nation, were not going to compete with workers in the east who get payed 2 cents an hour. We export knowledge. Something that we don't benefit as much from the EU on.
Note, ive been an EU skeptic from the start. I don't need someone off in Brussels to muddle in our national affairs.
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On March 23 2013 07:40 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2013 07:26 WhiteDog wrote:On March 23 2013 07:19 AngryMag wrote:On March 23 2013 07:14 Gorsameth wrote:On March 23 2013 07:03 ACrow wrote:On March 23 2013 06:07 WhiteDog wrote:
Here is the thing I have a real problem with : if you search for numbers, and don't try to dig up a little to understand those numbers, you will always find excuses for a nationalist behaviors regarding Europe. I understand that Germany is under a lot of stress, like most of the Europe, but I suggest German and Greek (in this topic obviously) to try to learn a little about economy and not jump on any given number to reassure themselves they are indeed getting "fucked in the but" and are indeed the "poorest citizen in europe" because it's just plain wrong (well for Germany at least, Greece is another problem). I agree, there is a big surge of unfortunate nationalism since the begin of the crisis. I see only two directions this all could take: a) we all get our shit together, and really unify to become a true Union: equal opportunities, similar pay and working hours, same pension, same tax rates, same level of corruption (preferably none, lol), same fiscal politics, euro bonds, shared debt, one shared democratic government (really democratic, not the sorry excuse that is the commission) with governing authority elected by one person-one vote principle, have some legit independent media that is covering the whole of europe instead of having national medias that lead to bias, et cetera. b) the Union breaks apart in some form or another, hopefully only the currency union. Going on like we have done the last years is pure shit. Greece is suffering under austerity measures, the rest of southern Europe is on the brink of being infected or is already, northern Europe is accumulating debt trying to help, Germany is being hated on for being the one trying to coordinate countermeasures. It can't go on like this or it will lead to disaster (hell, I'm somewhat afraid already to go on vacation in Greece with my wife). I'd absolutely love for option a) to become true. But with any sense of reality, the chances for it are abysmally slim. So, how sad it may be, go for option b) as soon as possible to salvage as much as possible before it is too late. Maybe it can still be done by only dissolving the common currency. my 2 cents Unfortunately there is a 3e option. Muddle along postponing the inevitable that keeps coming back into our face harder and harder until everything gos to hell. And it seems to be the route that is being taken atm. If its because of shortsightedness by politicians who only care about there next election or because we as the general public are missing something but ever since this crisis hit Greece we have been pushing from 1 temporary thing to the next. If we had let the system fall with Greece the economy in the entire EU would have gotten wrecked but we would have been able to rebuild and work with a relatively clean slate. Yes it would have hurt but now its Cyprus. Italy will fall, Spain will fall and we will be still be in the same problem but now compounded by months and months of debt incurred trying to stop an out of control train. The wreck is still going to happen but it will only be worse now. This post sums up how I see the situation, too. unfortunately nobody is brave enough to just say: fuck it, cut the losses and do a restart with national currencies. People tend to forget that Europe as an institution existed long before the Euro, it may very well continue to exist long after the common currency is gone. Because most people are actually lucid about what the europe gives them. Why would Germany leave the EU zone ? Because they have to "help" other european nation in needs ? They are accumulating a huge trade surplus and the underevalued currency is not innocent in that. It's the same for Greece, or Italy : they are suffering from the overevalued euro (for them) but they also gain a lot through the europe (regional trade, help from the EU zone, tight relationship with the biggest market in the world). The Europe, as it is, is certainly a bad for most countries that are in it, as it's architecture is half done, but can anyone here actually believe Germany, France, Austria or any other country would not face a deep crisis of their condition of living if they were not integrated within the EU, facing the concurrence of newly developped countries like India, China, etc. I agree that politicians are, as always, cowards, who can't take resolutions, but they also have good reasons for not doing anything. Where would we be? We would probably be worse off before the crisis started, there were advantages in trade and cooperation Would we be in a crisis? Yes ofc we would. thats the downside of the global economy. everyone is effected. Would we be in a much better position to combat the crisis? Definitely. As for competition with India and China? I fail to see how the EU has helped in that. Were a developed western nation, were not going to compete with workers in the east who get payed 2 cents an hour. We export knowledge. Something that we don't benefit as much from the EU on. Note, ive been an EU skeptic from the start. I don't need someone off in Brussels to muddle in our national affairs.
You think India and China don't export knowledge ? 
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Singapor, South Korea, Taiwan, Switzerland prove that u don't need a currency union or a big country to compete with China/india.
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Each of your exemple can be debunked. For exemple Switzerland is basically a clandestin passenger in the EU, that both profit from its integration in the EU zone (yeah it's within the shenghen space) and that profit from its low tax on capital and bank account "security". It's not a viable developpement course for any of the EU currency area countries.
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That you need to be in the EU or even have the Euro to compete with China or India is still bullshit. Does not matter at all why small countries are successfull. They can be and that is my whole point.
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I don't think giving up the Euro is a good idea at all, and it certainly will not help Germany. We currently have receivables worth over 700 billion Euro scattered over the EU. If the EU-States get their national currencies back, over two-thirds of those will be gone.
Also just devaluating your curreny to gain competition advantages is just not legitimate. The structural changes happening in many of the economical weaker european countries are way better in long term than just solving every problem by printing money or weakening your own currency. Although if a state really wants to go for that he of course should be free to do so, and i don't think that Germany would be stopping anyone.
It was also a pretty bad idea to pump money brainlessly into the financial sector to "calm the market". I think way more banks should've just gone bankrupt and the money should have gone into economic stimulus packages, which worked on national level many times.
I think the fact that most of the money just went into banks instead of helping people is a big reason why people from Germany think their money is wasted, and why people from Greece think we're not helping at all.
The Cyprian crysis actually is a pretty good example why we shouldn't have saved so many banks beforehand, because if the simple principle of "risk and reward go hand in hand" wouldn't have been undermined over and over, Cyprian banks would probably have cared a little bit more and would not have put their money into the bankrupt greek financial market.
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On March 23 2013 07:03 ACrow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2013 06:07 WhiteDog wrote:
Here is the thing I have a real problem with : if you search for numbers, and don't try to dig up a little to understand those numbers, you will always find excuses for a nationalist behaviors regarding Europe. I understand that Germany is under a lot of stress, like most of the Europe, but I suggest German and Greek (in this topic obviously) to try to learn a little about economy and not jump on any given number to reassure themselves they are indeed getting "fucked in the but" and are indeed the "poorest citizen in europe" because it's just plain wrong (well for Germany at least, Greece is another problem). I agree, there is a big surge of unfortunate nationalism since the beginning of the crisis. I see only two directions this all could take: a) we all get our shit together, and really unify to become a true Union: equal opportunities, similar pay and working hours, same pension, same tax rates, same level of corruption (preferably none, lol), same fiscal politics, euro bonds, shared debt, one shared democratic government (really democratic, not the sorry excuse that is the commission) with governing authority elected by one person-one vote principle, have some legit independent media that is covering the whole of europe instead of having national medias that lead to bias, et cetera. b) the Union breaks apart in some form or another, hopefully only the currency union. Going on like we have done the last years is pure shit. Greece is suffering under austerity measures, the rest of southern Europe is on the brink of being infected or is already, northern Europe is accumulating debt trying to help, Germany is being hated on for being the one trying to coordinate countermeasures. It can't go on like this or it will lead to disaster (hell, I'm somewhat afraid already to go on vacation in Greece with my wife). I'd absolutely love for option a) to become true. But with any sense of reality, the chances for it are abysmally slim. So, how sad it may be, go for option b) as soon as possible to salvage as much as possible before it is too late. Maybe it can still be done by only dissolving the common currency. my 2 cents
I think a) is a bad thing to do, and I think this is currently mainly happened because the EU/parliament has a lust for power. b) is just as bad though. This is the way managers often think, they can't truly deal with diversity or complexity so they start simplifying things to a level that it can be easily managed, even if it is not effective, optimal, or efficient.
We are seeing the exact same thing happening already in the EU. The more the EU forces its countries to drop their characteristics, the things that give them identity, make them strong, or competitive, the deeper we will get in trouble. The Euro was the first sign of this, taking away power from the individual nations to control their own currency and debt in favor of something that was simpler to manage.
Instead of taking this simplification route where every country has the same rules the EU should start operating smarter, look at each country or region individually and as a whole and see how its strong points can be strengthened and how the EU can help harnessing their characteristics instead of brushing them aside.
Also, we need more democracy in the EU. The citizens of the EU have little to no say in what happens in the EU government. It is neither transparent, nor does it truly answer to anyone. This is a very dangerous model to operate on and will lead to more and more rebellion. The citizens of the EU know what freedom is and each country in the EU has fought hard in the past for their freedoms. These freedoms are now given up with a knife on the throat of all our governments, not just the countries in the South, but also in the North. And there isn't a single country that is happy with this shift in power, the only ones that are happy are the European politicians since they see their power grow.
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EPT
