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On March 21 2013 08:06 accela wrote:
[German] government supports and in fact demanded the involvement of IMF, the organization that with their policies either reduced down to poverty and murdered thousands and thousands of people around the globe and supported every bloody dictator who would be willing to work with them.
[German] government and EU is actively terrorising and blackmailing the citizens of the member countries and when i talk about terrorism i do not exaggerate or speak with a metaphor, i mean pure and real terrorism.
You talking about blaming the incompetent politicians and you are completely right. That's what people first tried to do choosing different political parties with no involvement to the government but then EU intervened with a huge campaign of terrorism and forced people to vote the same old politicians.
Believe me when i say that Greece easily surpassed North Korea on circulated FUD during the last elections period.
And now you discovered that Cyprus is a "money haven". You can't imagine how funny that sounds in the EU of Luxembourg, Latvia, London's laundry namely Ireland, Greece and ofc Germany, the 3rd world's arm exporter, the country of Siemens, Ferrostaal, Man and so many other companies whose profits through bribing politicians sponsored for reelection by the EU (see above) could possibly buy all banks of Cyprus.
Your post is hilarious and sad at the same time.
Wake up my friend and take off your nationalism glasses!
On the international playing field it has always been "dog eats dog" since the dawn of time.
It was your country, that gambled a bit to high with taking loans from others and has to pay for it now. And that is not Germany demanding stuff or the IMF setting unreasonable conditions, that is reality knocking on your door to pay up.
I am sorry if your teachers or politicians told your otherwise but at the core foreign countries do not give a shit about you because you are not of their nationality.
You act like you have never heard of colonization or 'the third world'. We (the West) have been doing it for hundreds of years. Sure, we stopped taking colonies, but only because we realized that setting up a dept system to weaker countries achieves the same goal with less (obvious) bloodshed.
And your Greece played along when we did the whole 'big loan into big dept into austerity into permanent exploitation' script to Argentina or Nigeria.
Now, your problem was that you actually bought into this "European Union" idea, thinking 'they would not do this to us, we are together now'. You actually thought Germany and France wanted to be your friend because they were so kind and friendly? Well tough luck.
The rich (creditors) knew your politicians could not resist the easy loan money. And the trap was set. You sure stepped into it and now you going to bleed.
You were once our partner in hunting and now your are our prey. That is how we roll, deal with it.
Or in other words, nationality or individuals do not play any significant role in this process. If it was not for Germany it would be some other country. If it was not Merkel it would be some other guy. I hear Hollande calls himself a socialist and he might play the 'good cop' part in this theater, but in the end he does not really care about you or your problems. I can guarantee you, if Peugeot wanted to move significant production jobs to Greece he would fight it tooth and nails.
You make it sound as if Germany or Merkel are doing something outrageous, when all they do is playing the game how it has been played by every other country / politician for hundreds of years.
PS: FYI, Greece is founding member of the IMF. Greece has a commissioner in the EC. And Greece has member in the governing council of the ECB. So, it is not really a 'they are doing it to us' case.
Also, Merkel does not really care about all of her own citizens, she basically accepted that 15% of Germans are piss-poor as a fact of life. So why would she care about Greece falling from First to Third World country?
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On March 23 2013 01:55 Tula wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 18:15 mdb wrote:
Respect for Cyprus for not surending to the blackmail of Germany and Russia. Still funny to read posts like this. How dare Germany offer to bail out someone! How could we do such a dastardly deed. Frankly this discussion makes me sick, no one forced Zyprus or Greece to run their economy into the ground and spend far more than they could afford. In fact the EU has transferred billions of euro to them before this crisis even started. Maybe they should clean up their own mess for a change instead of blaming the people who are willing to help them. Yes the cuts demanded by the bailouts are harsh, but frankly it isn't our responsibility to pay for your debts in the first place, so you better believe we will demand you carry at least some part of the burden as well. The goverment of zyprus knew exactly how much money they would need in the near future. They literally had years since the Greek crisis started to make reforms and prepare for this, instead they did little to nothing and now the debts are close to becoming due.
Greece was in trouble because they spent to much, but Cyprus is only in trouble because they are a tax haven and their banks are so much bigger than the economy. From what i can tell their GDP is ~23 billion and they need ~16 billion for their banks. There is really no way for them to to raise that much money in only a few years. That would be comparable to asking the US to come up with about 10 trillion dollars, its not going to happen.
In the end they have to decide if they want to be a tax haven going forward. Iceland wiped out foreign deposits when this happened to them and they are doing great, but Cyprus may decide they want to take the hit and pay for the stuff their banks did.
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Greece was in trouble because they spent to much, but Cyprus is only in trouble because they are a tax haven and their banks are so much bigger than the economy.
Exactly this. Cyprus basically made a business out of laundring money for Russia and collecting money from different EU States because of their extremely low taxes and high anonymity.
Just some numbers: The business volume(i hope this is the right term) of the cyprian banks is seven times(!) as high as their GDP. The money their banks need is about 17 billion Euros, which is also as high as their GDP.
And this is not because of Germany or another seemingly dictatorial EU State, the problem Cyprus is in results from their economy which is solely based on their bank system. And the idea that people with assets below 100.000 should pay a tax didn't come from the European financial politicians, it came from the cyprian president, who did not wan't to disturb his business model. I agree that it was a big mistake to even let the idea come up to involve the "small savers", but that idea didn't come from Germany,France or someone else, it was demanded by Cyprus itself.
And no one forces Cyprus to accept the conditions, the EU offered. But it's the cyprian government which want's money from the EU, not the other way around. If Cyprus does not want to restructure their economy and wants to make a business out of laundring tax money from all over the world, no one is going to stop them, but its just insane to think that the ESM and ECB and every other party involved is even going to support this further by paying for it.
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Also from the interview with prof. Hubert Faustmann from University of Nikozja in one of the polish papers (no English source sorry)-lose translation" Cyprus is economicaly dead. Two main reasons: excessive buying of Greece bounds even when it was known they are really sketchy (LOL) and too big administration. Everyone there wants a job governemnt, governemnt officials earns on average two-three times more than in private sector, those wages are FREE of TAXES and payments for retierment founds and health insurance (WTF) also they work till 14:30 (WTFFF). On top of that they recently increased pensions and lowered taxes. This bailout will not correct that, there will be another needed soon, and another"
Comming from the mouth of Cyprus professor, this is really scary, i mean, how anyone expect this sort of thing to last?
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On March 23 2013 02:06 lord_nibbler wrote:
.........
PS: FYI, Greece is founding member of the IMF. Greece has a commissioner in the EC. And Greece has member in the governing council of the ECB. So, it is not really a 'they are doing it to us' case.
.........
I'm not going to argue or dissagree at all but believe me that i'm standing ashamed in front of any man whose country got wiped by the IMF the last five decades and only that i had to live just a small part, as a matter of fact, a taste of what being under IMF means and only then make my research makes it even worse, even if Greece was providing just a tiny share of IMF's funding but with voting power nonetheless.
The same feelings for having a greek commissioner involved with screwing the poorest countries of west Africa by overharvesting their seas.
Embarashing is also the thought that 5-10 years ago i would probably be a ignorant little prick bragging about how we sending our taxes to "civilize" those countries under the IMF/EU "aids".
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This is such a joke what these sutheners are doing to us ...
A recent survey has shown that germany and austria are the poor houses of the EU (not counting eastern suropean states).
The wealth of a normal german or austrian citizen is about 50-60k euros where as italy or spain or other sutherns countries the averafe citizen has about 100k and more.
This study used the median and not the complete average to give a more balanced view.
And I have to say the results are a joke. They pay no taxes, but spend like kings and they do not want to pay there debts but rather cheat on them by devaluating their currency like they did in the past.
I mean this is a joke. You always here about rich germany and austria and what not but its all a lie. The people crying about cutbacks and taxes are actually much more wealthy then us.
They deserve a kick in the but to get their things in order.
I can not have mercy about a bunch of rich people who never really paid taxes to loose a bit of their money. I mean someone with a wealth of 100k is wealthy in my eyes and if he looses some of it I dont care.
I mean austria and germany pay their taxes work hard and get little out of it and we are called the bad guys.
In greece they had cram car drivers in their state run transportation system who earned as much as an universtiy graduate in germany and other horendous stuff.
I really do not have mercy on them until they get their shit together. I dont see why we as one of the average poorest citizens in the EU should pay the depts of others. Germany austria and some of the benelux and other northern states should form their own core EU and leave this failed endevour where they sucks us dry and then take a dump on us.
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On March 23 2013 04:59 Holy_AT wrote:
This is such a joke what these sutheners are doing to us ...
A recent survey has shown that germany and austria are the poor houses of the EU (not counting eastern suropean states).
The wealth of a normal german or austrian citizen is about 50-60k euros where as italy or spain or other sutherns countries the averafe citizen has about 100k and more.
This study used the median and not the complete average to give a more balanced view.
And I have to say the results are a joke. They pay no taxes, but spend like kings and they do not want to pay there debts but rather cheat on them by devaluating their currency like they did in the past.
I mean this is a joke. You always here about rich germany and austria and what not but its all a lie. The people crying about cutbacks and taxes are actually much more wealthy then us.
They deserve a kick in the but to get their things in order.
I can not have mercy about a bunch of rich people who never really paid taxes to loose a bit of their money. I mean someone with a wealth of 100k is wealthy in my eyes and if he looses some of it I dont care.
I mean austria and germany pay their taxes work hard and get little out of it and we are called the bad guys.
In greece they had cram car drivers in their state run transportation system who earned as much as an universtiy graduate in germany and other horendous stuff.
I really do not have mercy on them until they get their shit together. I dont see why we as one of the average poorest citizens in the EU should pay the depts of others. Germany austria and some of the benelux and other northern states should form their own core EU and leave this failed endevour where they sucks us dry and then take a dump on us.
Can you give a link to this survey? I'd be interested in reading it
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On March 23 2013 04:59 Holy_AT wrote:
This is such a joke what these sutheners are doing to us ...
A recent survey has shown that germany and austria are the poor houses of the EU (not counting eastern suropean states).
The wealth of a normal german or austrian citizen is about 50-60k euros where as italy or spain or other sutherns countries the averafe citizen has about 100k and more.
This study used the median and not the complete average to give a more balanced view.
And I have to say the results are a joke. They pay no taxes, but spend like kings and they do not want to pay there debts but rather cheat on them by devaluating their currency like they did in the past.
I mean this is a joke. You always here about rich germany and austria and what not but its all a lie. The people crying about cutbacks and taxes are actually much more wealthy then us.
They deserve a kick in the but to get their things in order.
I can not have mercy about a bunch of rich people who never really paid taxes to loose a bit of their money. I mean someone with a wealth of 100k is wealthy in my eyes and if he looses some of it I dont care.
I mean austria and germany pay their taxes work hard and get little out of it and we are called the bad guys.
In greece they had cram car drivers in their state run transportation system who earned as much as an universtiy graduate in germany and other horendous stuff.
I really do not have mercy on them until they get their shit together. I dont see why we as one of the average poorest citizens in the EU should pay the depts of others. Germany austria and some of the benelux and other northern states should form their own core EU and leave this failed endevour where they sucks us dry and then take a dump on us.
Full of shit. Post link or it didn't happen. Wealth doesn't mean shit in economy, are you referring to wage, revenue ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_in_Europe_by_monthly_average_wage
Here I see Austria's Gross wage are in average 480 € more than Chyprian's average wage (Gross mean before taxation), the net wage for Austria still being above Chyprian's average gross wage. Germany is at more than 1750 € in gross average wage...
Now when you talk about budget revenue look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_budget_revenues
Your ignorance only reflect your own nationalism.
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On March 23 2013 04:59 Holy_AT wrote:
This is such a joke what these sutheners are doing to us ...
Now you know what it's like to be an American 
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Good that Norway never went into this...
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On March 23 2013 05:15 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2013 04:59 Holy_AT wrote:
This is such a joke what these sutheners are doing to us ...
A recent survey has shown that germany and austria are the poor houses of the EU (not counting eastern suropean states).
The wealth of a normal german or austrian citizen is about 50-60k euros where as italy or spain or other sutherns countries the averafe citizen has about 100k and more.
This study used the median and not the complete average to give a more balanced view.
And I have to say the results are a joke. They pay no taxes, but spend like kings and they do not want to pay there debts but rather cheat on them by devaluating their currency like they did in the past.
I mean this is a joke. You always here about rich germany and austria and what not but its all a lie. The people crying about cutbacks and taxes are actually much more wealthy then us.
They deserve a kick in the but to get their things in order.
I can not have mercy about a bunch of rich people who never really paid taxes to loose a bit of their money. I mean someone with a wealth of 100k is wealthy in my eyes and if he looses some of it I dont care.
I mean austria and germany pay their taxes work hard and get little out of it and we are called the bad guys.
In greece they had cram car drivers in their state run transportation system who earned as much as an universtiy graduate in germany and other horendous stuff.
I really do not have mercy on them until they get their shit together. I dont see why we as one of the average poorest citizens in the EU should pay the depts of others. Germany austria and some of the benelux and other northern states should form their own core EU and leave this failed endevour where they sucks us dry and then take a dump on us. Can you give a link to this survey? I'd be interested in reading it
I guess he is talking about this survey (I only found a German link, I'm sorry):
http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soziales/vermoegen-deutscher-haushalte-kleiner-als-in-euro-krisenlaendern-a-890247.html
It gives estimates about median household wealth, conducted over the years 2010-2011, but it includes real estate. The study blames the low numbers for Germany on a low percentage of Germans owning houses, high taxes (and special costs due to the reunification).
Germany: 51,400€
Austria: 76,400€
France: 113,500€
Italy: 163,900€
Spain: 178,300€
According to the study, personal German wealth is one of the lowest in all of Europe.
It is a study by the German Central Bank, so take it with a grain of salt (the conspiracy theorists here will probably interpret it as a sign of the evilness of Germany I guess  ).
EDIT: found the actual study: http://www.bundesbank.de/Redaktion/DE/Kurzmeldungen/Fokusthemen/2013_03_21_phf.html
with some English documents at the bottom, notably: http://www.bundesbank.de/Redaktion/EN/Downloads/Publications/Discussion_Paper_1/2012/2012_07_10_dkp_13.pdf?__blob=publicationFile
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Your ignorance only reflect your own nationalism.
I am not a nationalist, as a matter of fact I would dissolve all national states immediatly if I had the power to do so and would form a global ruling body for the whole world, one world one nation one economy one currency.
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On March 23 2013 05:34 Holy_AT wrote:I am not a nationalist, as a matter of fact I would dissolve all national states immediatly if I had the power to do so and would form a global ruling body for the whole world, one world one nation one economy one currency.
Yet you state that Germany should regroup itself with austria and "some part of benelux"... You want Alsace too maybe ? lol
The thing you showed does not mean at all that Germany is poorer or getting fucked by europe : it is not the wealth of the country that is discussed but household wealth. A household, in the context of surveys on social conditions or income such as EU-SILC or the Household budget survey (HBS), is defined as a housekeeping unit or, operationally, as a social unit: having common arrangements; sharing household expenses or daily needs; in a shared common residence.
If you look at this + Show Spoiler +
Wealth level are indeed very low in Germany, but financial assets and other type of assets are on par : the main problem lies in household wealth. In Italy, as seen in the graph, people bought their house long ago (mostly) and both the real estate and the fact that people own house has been so since a long time.
The home ownership rate is very low in Germany: less than 50% overall, and is at its peak of 58% among 55-64-year-olds. Only about half of homeowners in Germany own their homes outright. Among retired households (of 65 and older) that own their main place of residence, about 80% own it outright. In Italy, over 95% of households over 65 own their home without a mortgage. But, as we saw above, a very small share of households in Italy have home debt. Even among young households, over 50% of them own their home outright. In the US, home-secured debt is very common. For those aged 25-64, over 60% still owe money on their house. Only for households of 75 and over do more than 80% not have a mortgage.
It has nothing to do with the Europe and everything to do with internal political matters such as what is the state of the real estate, are there any incentive or regulation in relation to this estate, are there any policy pushing toward house building, etc. Maybe there are also cultural explication to that (it is known that some professions in France for exemple prefer renting than owning their house. Teachers are an exemple of that).
http://www.socialsituation.eu/monitoring-report/wealth/wealth-distribution-in-more-detail/wealth-levels
Also there is a statistical evidence : when you talk about median, you cut the population in half and take the statistic for the 50th %. If the wealth is more inequally distributed (which is the case for both Germany and the US in the link posted) the differences will be bigger than what it is (that's why you need both median and average).
Don't mess things up, this has nothing to do with Europe, and a lot to do with your policies. See the graph ; the US were way lower than Italy before 2nd WW, but they decided to go for an agressive policy pushing their citizen toward debt to buy themselves houses and now the US are above Italy in household assets (altho they all have debts).
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On March 23 2013 05:43 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2013 05:34 Holy_AT wrote:Your ignorance only reflect your own nationalism. I am not a nationalist, as a matter of fact I would dissolve all national states immediatly if I had the power to do so and would form a global ruling body for the whole world, one world one nation one economy one currency. Yet you state that Germany should regroup itself with austria and "some part of benelux"... You want Alsace too maybe ? lol
You wanna sell? I am just from over the border. The rural dudes are often quite cuntish  Then I tell them that I am just from the other side of the border ( we were french under Napoleon) and there is a lot of love and I often get free stuff in restaurants or cafes. Always bought beer there for Rock am Ring.
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Off topic: I'd take Bavaria, but I am not sure on the rest
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On March 23 2013 05:58 Holy_AT wrote:Off topic: I'd take Bavaria, but I am not sure on the rest
Sold
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On March 23 2013 05:59 AngryMag wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2013 05:58 Holy_AT wrote:Off topic: I'd take Bavaria, but I am not sure on the rest Sold
Agreed, you can have 'em, haha.
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Here is the thing I have a real problem with : if you search for numbers, and don't try to dig up a little to understand those numbers, you will always find excuses for a nationalist behaviors regarding Europe. I understand that Germany is under a lot of stress, like most of the Europe, but I suggest German and Greek (in this topic obviously) to try to learn a little about economy and not jump on any given number to reassure themselves they are indeed getting "fucked in the but" and are indeed the "poorest citizen in europe" because it's just plain wrong (well for Germany at least, Greece is another problem).
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Dude, we don't need any lessons in economics. In contrast, we understand quite well the nexus of economic interest and mechanism that is channeling German wealth into southern economies. From the beginning, we should never have given a single Euro to the ESFS and we should never have accepted the ECB to erode lending standards.
Quite obviously, the southern economies have prefered to exploit us rather than to reform. Why inducing painful reform if you can find some stupid German that is paying for you? I am so sick of it. People in this thread writing shit about we hand over money just to exploit their countries (how is this even supposed to work?), or shit about how Germany is exploiting poor France due to the trade surplus (just because we have seen our real wages drop over the last decade and work more than 35 hours a week).
In return, everybody is hating on Germany. I am ok with helping neighbours but the way this crisis is turning out, will we ever get help in return if we are in need some day?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.socialsituation.eu/monitoring-report/images/503_totalassetscomposition_horizontal.png)
