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BalliSLife
1339 Posts
On January 01 2010 11:07 TwoToneTerran wrote: Execution over drugs is quite possibly the biggest over reactive punishment I've ever heard of. Fuck off China. More people would of been screwed over if those drugs were successfully smuggled. It's more of a lesson to future smugglers. Sorta like the death penalty in usa but a bit more aggresive | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
It's revenge/fury acted upon and disguised with catchalls like "deter" and "punish." The deterrence and punishment do not exist. It's just an angry society wanting to kill people they don't like. | ||
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BalliSLife
1339 Posts
On January 01 2010 11:17 TwoToneTerran wrote: The Death Penalty in the USA does almost nothing for deterrence. Death Penalty states average a much higher crime rate than non death penalty states. It's revenge/fury acted upon and disguised with catchalls like "deter" and "punish." The deterrence and punishment do not exist. It's just an angry society wanting to kill people they don't like. Exactly, if it doesn't exist then I guess to them it's just one more smuggler that's off the face of the planet. Same goes for murder and anything else they execute. The only one angry here is you, since you clearly don't understand how many people 4kg of heroin would fuck over for you're own personal gains. The laws are there, if you don't obey you die it's really that simple. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
There's no line to draw with killing. You don't do it, there's no reason to do it. this isn't my benefit. I've never touched an illegal drug and hopefully never will. This is appealing to the sense of reason in folks to understand that capital punishment has no effect over imprisonment other than killing them. It MAY cut costs in China because they're much quicker to execute than America (The cost is negligible here because it's a long drawn out complicated process), but government equating human life to their changepurse is literally precedent for genocide. edit: and frankly, are you naive enough to think that that 4KG of Heroin never making it to the market will somehow curb heroin abuse? As has been said, heroin addicts are basically the absolute in desperation to get their high. A drop in the bucket won't do anything. If china is so serious about the drug game to murder a man for 4KGs of Heroin then they should be going for mass executions against drug trafficking areas. They don't because drug culture is profitable. They just caught one and like to play angry and appease the senseless masses. | ||
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yhnmk
Canada630 Posts
On January 01 2010 11:17 TwoToneTerran wrote: And whats wrong that? Absolutely nothing! The Death Penalty in the USA does almost nothing for deterrence. Death Penalty states average a much higher crime rate than non death penalty states. It's revenge/fury acted upon and disguised with catchalls like "deter" and "punish." The deterrence and punishment do not exist. It's just an angry society wanting to kill people they don't like.  | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
If there's nothing wrong with mob mentality decreeing consequences then there is absolutely no reason to have any judicial process. | ||
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yhnmk
Canada630 Posts
On January 01 2010 11:35 TwoToneTerran wrote: Its not mob mentality decreeing consequences, its the opinion of society supporting existing legal penalties. If there's nothing wrong with mob mentality decreeing consequences then there is absolutely no reason to have any judicial process. edit: lmao and the judicial process is to determine guilt and the appropriate response. Just because you dont see death penalty as an appropriate response doesn't mean you cant spout off retarded shit like the above. | ||
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BalliSLife
1339 Posts
On January 01 2010 11:29 TwoToneTerran wrote: One less jaywalker off the face of the planet. There's no line to draw with killing. You don't do it, there's no reason to do it. this isn't my benefit. I've never touched an illegal drug and hopefully never will. This is appealing to the sense of reason in folks to understand that capital punishment has no effect over imprisonment other than killing them. It MAY cut costs in China because they're much quicker to execute than America (The cost is negligible here because it's a long drawn out complicated process), but government equating human life to their changepurse is literally precedent for genocide. I meant the benefit of the smuggler who would probably receive a nice chunk of money after he's successful. Now you have hundreds of people addicted to the drug with their lives completely ruined and eventually left to die because a. it either costs too much to get treatment or b. nobody gives a shit. it's so obvious that it's the right thing to do when you look at it from cost/benefit analysis. Edit: from you're updated edit, so suddenly it's ok to commit mass murders of drug trafficking areas? contradict yourself much? trust me they are doing their best eliminating these guys one by one, doing that would just cause an uproar from people like you. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
If every consequence of law was a direct coorelation to mob opinion then, sure, the prisons would be a lot less crowded, but then we'd just be in the Witch Trial eras again. On January 01 2010 11:38 BalliSLife wrote: I meant the benefit of the smuggler who would probably receive a nice chunk of money after he's successful. Now you have hundreds of people addicted to the drug with their lives completely ruined and eventually left to die because a. it either costs too much to get treatment or b. nobody gives a shit. it's so obvious that it's the right thing to do when you look at it from cost/benefit analysis Like I said above, one drug trafficker means nothing to the heroin addicted masses. If you want to solve the problem of drugs with force then it shouldn't be a pick and choose execution by luck basis. It should be a consistent and murderous raid against drug traffic. The reason it's not is because there are far too many wealthy people invested in the drug trade and there's no way a government would willingly take away money from their nation to support their tentative morals. | ||
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yhnmk
Canada630 Posts
On January 01 2010 11:39 TwoToneTerran wrote: lol, you can want revenge and expect extremely harsh punishments but still do it in a calculated and fair manner. For example: The American death penalty. :OThis specific instance of law is a direct product of mob mentality, though. It's rash, angry, and brutal, and in no way syncs up with Law as a whole, which prides itself on being cold, calculated and fair. If every consequence of law was a direct coorelation to mob opinion then, sure, the prisons would be a lot less crowded, but then we'd just be in the Witch Trial eras again. it completely syncs up with law. Law aint just about rehabilitation or prevention, it is also about punishment. Its been like that for centuries across the globe. And many philosophers justified the death penalty on the basis of revenge alone. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On January 01 2010 11:41 yhnmk wrote: lol, you can want revenge and expect extremely harsh punishments but still do it in a calculated and fair manner. For example: The American death penalty. :O it completely syncs up with law. Law aint just about rehabilitation or prevention, it is also about punishment. Its been like that for centuries across the globe. And many philosophers justified the death penalty on the basis of revenge alone. It's not punishment. Punishment is meant to teach a lesson. Imprisoning a thief for ten years is punishment because he can learn from the consequence of his action. There's no learning from being killed. Also, don't get me started on the American Death Penalty. If you want a less 'impassioned' reason against the death penalty, there should be no death penalty because there's no infallible court system to prove 100% innocence and guilt. No matter how hard you try, you will end up killing innocent people just like how we have imprisoned innocent people. State sanctioned murder is no less abhorrent then personally committed murder. By its own logic, all supporters should be put to death for being absolutely involved in cold blooded murder once an innocent man has been falsely found guilty. But that's no the case. Why? Because it's the antithesis of law. there's no system for fallibility in the death penalty short of not killing the convict off the bat so he may later be absolved. It's dumb, senseless, and does nothing that imprisonment wouldn't besides sate subconscious bloodlust. | ||
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yhnmk
Canada630 Posts
On January 01 2010 11:45 TwoToneTerran wrote: Ugh I hate debating on tl, I dont know how to splice the quote system like I would on either sites, so ill just number my points.It's not punishment. Punishment is meant to teach a lesson. Imprisoning a thief for ten years is punishment because he can learn from the consequence of his action. There's no learning from being killed. Also, don't get me started on the American Death Penalty. If you want a less 'impassioned' reason against the death penalty, there should be no death penalty because there's no infallible court system to prove 100% innocence and guilt. No matter how hard you try, you will end up killing innocent people just like how we have imprisoned innocent people. State sanctioned murder is no less abhorrent then personally committed murder. By its own logic, all supporters should be put to death for being absolutely involved in cold blooded murder once an innocent man has been falsely found guilty. But that's no the case. Why? Because it's the antithesis of law. there's no system for fallibility in the death penalty short of not killing the convict off the bat so he may later be absolved. It's dumb, senseless, and does nothing that imprisonment wouldn't besides sate subconscious bloodlust. 1) Punishment is meant to bring about suffering, and through that suffering, convince the person not to do it again. In acts so heinous where we can not risk the possibility- or the character flaws of the person make teaching a lesson impossible [sociopaths], death is a wonderful alternative that alleviates a burden on society. 2) I don't care if theres a degree of error. The death of a few innocents is acceptable if we put down numerous mass murderers, or alternatively, those that may be repeat offenders in murder, rape, etc. 2 b) State sanctioned murder is not murder. You mean state sanctioned killing. And yes, state sanctioned killing is vastly less abhorrent to the alternative. It is not anarchistic, for one. It is directed in a very precise manner, as precise as is humanely possible, at someone who hurts society as a whole through their actions. Obviously by its own logic, state sanctioned murder doesn't call for executing people who are completely within the bounds of law and do nothing overtly negative to society. Thats just ridiculous and an absolutely terrible argument. And above all, it is the enforcement of law, which is a reflection of the morality and opinions of a society, and therefore in its own end, is a justification. 3) Its not dumb, its a calculated, complex process, with hundreds of years of philosophy and evolution behind it. And it removes the possibility of repeat offenders. Do you know how many murderer's, rapists, etc, get out of prison and commit the same act? A fuckin lot. Especially in states or countries [hi Canada] that ascribe to the idea that law exists to rehabilitate the criminal. In areas with a more lax justice system, a murderer can be let out in five years or less. | ||
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FieryBalrog
United States1381 Posts
You'd never catch anything like this for the US or a European country on here, where people defend idiotic laws and ugly totalitarian govt. For example, the drug laws in America are supposed to be too harsh... lol. Strange phenomenon. | ||
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phrixus
China143 Posts
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EchOne
United States2906 Posts
On January 01 2010 11:57 FieryBalrog wrote: Rabid Chinese Nationalism on TL is a funny thing. You'd never catch anything like this for the US or a European country on here, where people defend idiotic laws and ugly totalitarian govt. For example, the drug laws in America are supposed to be too harsh... lol. Strange phenomenon. Sorry to single you out, I just want to voice my annoyance at posts citing "Rabid Chinese Nationalism" when said phenomenon is not running rampant in at least this thread. Look at the dozen posts before yours: all we have here is a generic row over the death penalty. It is not painted with nationalistic overtones in any way. Please refrain from blanket assumptions regarding discussion in threads dealing with China. Obviously there are and will be several cases where evidence supports this assumption, but when this isn't the case, the voiced assumptions amount to mere eyesores. Honestly, I've witnessed more Chinese nationalism in threads concerning F91, yet this thread somehow elicits more complaints when the nationalism in it is comparatively mild. | ||
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BalliSLife
1339 Posts
On January 01 2010 11:57 FieryBalrog wrote: Rabid Chinese Nationalism on TL is a funny thing. You'd never catch anything like this for the US or a European country on here, where people defend idiotic laws and ugly totalitarian govt. For example, the drug laws in America are supposed to be too harsh... lol. Strange phenomenon. What do you expect from the op anyway? it's obviously a good opportunity to china bash, I can pull up a news article about civilians dying in iraq and Afghanistan make a thread about it and see tons of patriotic TL members supporting usa as well. Would you like to see? | ||
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illu
Canada2531 Posts
On January 01 2010 11:17 TwoToneTerran wrote: The Death Penalty in the USA does almost nothing for deterrence. Death Penalty states average a much higher crime rate than non death penalty states. It's revenge/fury acted upon and disguised with catchalls like "deter" and "punish." The deterrence and punishment do not exist. It's just an angry society wanting to kill people they don't like. But it does provide some leverage in a plea bargain negotiation. It's not useless. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On January 01 2010 11:56 yhnmk wrote: 1) Punishment is meant to bring about suffering, and through that suffering, convince the person not to do it again. In acts so heinous where we can not risk the possibility- or the character flaws of the person make teaching a lesson impossible [sociopaths], death is a wonderful alternative that alleviates a burden on society. Then it is not punishment. Do not call it punishment, do not pretend it is punishment. The Death Penalty has nothing to do with punishment and plays no supported factor in deterrence. It is, plain and simple, killing. You may justify it however you please. Whether it be "lessening a burden" on society, or doing away with the trash. Every single reason not related to Law is the exact same reason any other killer in the world could use, and by your logic, would be justified. 2) I don't care if theres a degree of error. The death of a few innocents is acceptable if we put down numerous mass murderers, or alternatively, those that may be repeat offenders in murder, rape, etc. This is disgusting. You know what else prevents criminals from committing crime again? High security imprisonment. Only this way you, at the very least, will never kill an innocent person because you think it's for the greater good. It is not for a senseless populace to decide what's for the greater good, because their arguments lack any basis of commonality or reason. 2 b) State sanctioned murder is not murder. You mean state sanctioned killing. And yes, state sanctioned killing is vastly less abhorrent to the alternative. It is not anarchistic, for one. It is directed in a very precise manner, as precise as is humanely possible, at someone who hurts society as a whole through their actions. http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/22945.php Capital Punishment has never, ever been humane. And that's not even a good reason for it. Should a murderer be slightly more absolved if he kills someone quickly and painlessly? A shotgun to the head is more humane to the victim than current Capital Punishment. It's just messier and the average member of the mob doesn't like the gore because it easily reminds them of the actual atrocity they're committing. Ask anyone who has actually seen the death penalty in exercise, they rationalize it as less evil because it's "like they're going to sleep." The way people are killed is not for the comfort of the supposed criminal, but for the comfort of those who see and hear about it. Obviously by its own logic, state sanctioned murder doesn't call for executing people who are completely within the bounds of law and do nothing overtly negative to society. Thats just ridiculous and an absolutely terrible argument. And above all, it is the enforcement of law, which is a reflection of the morality and opinions of a society, and therefore in its own end, is a justification. Wrong. The state completely realizes that the court system is fallible -- if it did not then there would be no such thing as absolving of crimes. As a matter of fact, there was a program that recently absolved over a HUNDRED innocents on death row with recent advances in DNA technology. That aside, moral reflection of society means bupkiss. Society believes those responsible for heinous crimes be put to death. That is a pure and unadulterated reflection, but it in and of itself is a crude statement derived from passion. It fails to realize that the support of society is what causes innocent deaths, and by its own laws, those responsible for cold blooded, pre meditated Murder should themselves be put to death. It's a natural paradox in the idea of the death penalty that is only overcome by having a perfect justice system (Human nature begets that there's no such thing as perfection, thus why it's a paradox and not just a sad dilemma). If you really believe that killing more innocents than any serial killer is justifiable because we get to 'get rid of' people we already have imprisoned then you should be lining yourself up for the injection. That's the reflection of society's morals. It's just never brought up because society does not think deeply enough about the death penalty to wage this on its mind sometimes, because there's no deep process to "Kill bad person." 3) Its not dumb, its a calculated, complex process, with hundreds of years of philosophy and evolution behind it. And it removes the possibility of repeat offenders. Do you know how many murderer's, rapists, etc, get out of prison and commit the same act? A fuckin lot. Especially in states or countries [hi Canada] that ascribe to the idea that law exists to rehabilitate the criminal. In areas with a more lax justice system, a murderer can be let out in five years or less. Repeat offenders is a problem, but that's because the justice system IS flawed. It deigns out relatively light punishments for terrible crimes, which I agree should not happen. Life imprisonment for anything that can't risk having a repeat offense (Heinous murder, Rape, etc) removes the problem of repeat offenders without killing innocents who are falsely imprisoned. It truly saddens me that there is overly lax justice, but that's no excuse for capital punishment when there is a viable alternative that doesn't risk the lives of innocents. If Capital Punishment were not allowed, anyone who WOULD have received capital punishment would've gotten life in prison with no parole, as well. | ||
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Myxomatosis
United States2392 Posts
On January 01 2010 11:56 yhnmk wrote: Ugh I hate debating on tl, I dont know how to splice the quote system like I would on either sites, so ill just number my points. 1) Punishment is meant to bring about suffering, and through that suffering, convince the person not to do it again. In acts so heinous where we can not risk the possibility- or the character flaws of the person make teaching a lesson impossible [sociopaths], death is a wonderful alternative that alleviates a burden on society. 2) I don't care if theres a degree of error. The death of a few innocents is acceptable if we put down numerous mass murderers, or alternatively, those that may be repeat offenders in murder, rape, etc. 2 b) State sanctioned murder is not murder. You mean state sanctioned killing. And yes, state sanctioned killing is vastly less abhorrent to the alternative. It is not anarchistic, for one. It is directed in a very precise manner, as precise as is humanely possible, at someone who hurts society as a whole through their actions. Obviously by its own logic, state sanctioned murder doesn't call for executing people who are completely within the bounds of law and do nothing overtly negative to society. Thats just ridiculous and an absolutely terrible argument. And above all, it is the enforcement of law, which is a reflection of the morality and opinions of a society, and therefore in its own end, is a justification. 3) Its not dumb, its a calculated, complex process, with hundreds of years of philosophy and evolution behind it. And it removes the possibility of repeat offenders. Do you know how many murderer's, rapists, etc, get out of prison and commit the same act? A fuckin lot. Especially in states or countries [hi Canada] that ascribe to the idea that law exists to rehabilitate the criminal. In areas with a more lax justice system, a murderer can be let out in five years or less. 2a) Are you serious? You would kill an innocent man, put him through twenty years of death row and then give him the fucking needle all while he is innocent so that you can see that serial killers and the like are put down when the same ends are accomplished by life in prison w/no parole? If you honestly think that a "few" innocents should die so that you can pointlessly kill people who will never have any future interaction with society to begin with, you are a fucking idiot. 3) No, please tell me, how many? | ||
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Myxomatosis
United States2392 Posts
On January 01 2010 11:56 yhnmk wrote: Ugh I hate debating on tl, I dont know how to splice the quote system like I would on either sites, so ill just number my points. 1) Punishment is meant to bring about suffering, and through that suffering, convince the person not to do it again. In acts so heinous where we can not risk the possibility- or the character flaws of the person make teaching a lesson impossible [sociopaths], death is a wonderful alternative that alleviates a burden on society. 2) I don't care if theres a degree of error. The death of a few innocents is acceptable if we put down numerous mass murderers, or alternatively, those that may be repeat offenders in murder, rape, etc. 2 b) State sanctioned murder is not murder. You mean state sanctioned killing. And yes, state sanctioned killing is vastly less abhorrent to the alternative. It is not anarchistic, for one. It is directed in a very precise manner, as precise as is humanely possible, at someone who hurts society as a whole through their actions. Obviously by its own logic, state sanctioned murder doesn't call for executing people who are completely within the bounds of law and do nothing overtly negative to society. Thats just ridiculous and an absolutely terrible argument. And above all, it is the enforcement of law, which is a reflection of the morality and opinions of a society, and therefore in its own end, is a justification. 3) Its not dumb, its a calculated, complex process, with hundreds of years of philosophy and evolution behind it. And it removes the possibility of repeat offenders. Do you know how many murderer's, rapists, etc, get out of prison and commit the same act? A fuckin lot. Especially in states or countries [hi Canada] that ascribe to the idea that law exists to rehabilitate the criminal. In areas with a more lax justice system, a murderer can be let out in five years or less. Are you serious? You would kill an innocent man, put him through twenty years of death row and then give him the fucking needle all while he is innocent so that you can see that serial killers and the like are put down when the same ends are accomplished by life in prison w/no parole? If you honestly think that a "few" innocents should die so that you can pointlessly kill people who will never have any future interaction with society to begin with, you are a fucking idiot. 3) No, please tell me, how many? | ||
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