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On December 02 2009 18:26 johanes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 18:00 intruding wrote:
I'm deeply concerned about the popularity of atheism here. Being atheist is as dumb as being religious. Religions and all its interpretations are obviously complete bullshit. But its equally idiotic to reject the existence of God simply because the masses have believed in their erroneous opinions about God over the millenniums. There is indeed a creator. It's just that everything revolving around it that is man-made or spiritual and moral about it, religion, has been utterly misconceived and misinterpreted and has led to bloodshed.
God exists, it's just that man's interpretation of it has traditionally been moronic. Therefore; deism should be the religious stance of choice. Agnostism would come second. But please, being a hardcore atheist is very very strange and disturbing. sorry, but if you use brain, then there is simply no reason to believe in god, so being atheist is the only logical choice for me. I consider myself man of science and i would like to hear your reasons for your claim, that there is indeed a creator. Why? How can you be so sure about it? You can't. As well as i can't be really sure that there is no god. I can choose freely not to believe as you can choose to believe. But then to belive is dumb as well, because we have arrived to our conclusions followinfg the same thinking pattern. So don't just please post atheist is dumb.
You're right in criticizing his attack on atheism, but choosing not to believe in a god is not a logical progression from being a "man of science." You have proof for neither the existence or absence of a god, and as a man of science should not be able to reach any conclusion. You may choose to pursue a life where the absence of proof implies falsity, but it's generally a poor principle. Anything labeled a theory (evolution, big bang, etc) has yet to be proven and if you apply the aforementioned principle generally then you'd end up not with the falsity of many accepted scientific ideas. I understand that on intuition or some other reason you may not believe in the existence of a god, but it's certainly not for a scientific reason so don't claim it to be as such.
As for this entire thread, I find the number of people lingering on the idea of a fundamentalist threat as a basis for bans on how people express their religious views extremely disturbing.
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On December 01 2009 12:17 Hinanawi wrote:
There are many Muslims who are peaceful and tolerant, but they're too quiet, or maybe just too afraid. They don't condemn the extremists loudly or wholeheartedly enough.
Remember what happened with the Mohammad cartoon fiasco in Europe. The 'moderate' Muslims were too afraid to condemn the Muslims making death threats. All you could get was a half-hearted "Yeah, the extremists are taking it too far, but you really should be more sensitive and not make comics like that" (again, implying that the cartoonist deserved it).
Unless peaceful Muslims can grow some balls and show extremists that they're not afraid to condemn them, loudly and without making excuses, then it means one of two things:
1. They agree on some level with the extremists
or
2. They're too afraid of physical retaliation/violence to condemn the extremists
Neither option speaks particularly well for the Muslim world. It's good that there are peaceful Muslims, but entirely irrelevant unless they have more power than the extremists, which they absolutely do not.
This I also feel is a quite crucial part. I understand that when Islam is attacked the non-radical muslims feel attacked aswell and they defend their views first, but I havent seen a lot of outrage or disgust with the words and actions of extremists, which makes it feel like the 2 points Hinanawi posted.
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On December 02 2009 16:18 ghostWriter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 15:59 The Storyteller wrote:On December 02 2009 15:50 ghostWriter wrote:On December 02 2009 15:37 The Storyteller wrote:On November 30 2009 07:52 Foucault wrote:
I don't really see a reason to spread religion in the world to be honest. Islam to me is oppression and women being held down by ridiculous religious beliefs. Of course there are nice things to arabic culture, but Islam is not it On December 02 2009 00:06 ggrrg wrote:
Yeah sure. It's far better to let them completely bar themselves from society. Since the mosques offer a place to spend time and pass activities, guess where many turks decide to spend all of their time? I honestly cannot imagine how they would integrate in Germany if they continue like this...
Agree 100% with these and other similar comments. It's about time we did something about people who refuse to integrate and whose culturesa are a menace to society. Hopefully banning minarets due to the Islamisation of Switzerland will just be the first step to banning these other things as well: Computer games Computer games are full of violence and ridiculous beliefs. They overtly tell people to kill other people and turn to a life of crime. Starcraft to me, especially, is about cruelty to insects and ridiculous beliefs. Of course there are nice things to computers, but computer games is not it. If we do not ban computer games, computer gamers will continue to stay in their bedrooms playing games instead of intergrating with society. Honestly, how can they possibly integrate? Crucifixes and Catholic churches Crucifixes are an important part of Catholicism. Catholicism to me is all about wild sex without usiong condoms and priests molesting little boys. We have to ban crucifixes before this gets out of hand. Churches have to go as well. Catholics all congregate there instead of integrating. This could lead to a very dangerous situation where they just have unprotected sex with each other and breed more dangerous Catholics. Ban churches and crucifixes ASAP. Pornography Pornography to me is all about oppression of women and women being held down by various metal and leather implements. Of course, there are nice things to movies, but pornography is not it. All these porn stars and directors have their own niche markets and their own video awards. We've got to ban all these as well so they can integrate. Hamburgers American culture is all about violence. The right to bear arms is written in the constitution. They also like to invade other countries like Iraq, Afghanistan and Vietnam. of course, America is not ALL about violence, but it's better to get rid of the whole lot of them anyway. The trouble with Americans is that they won't stay in their own country, despite it being so big. They keep going to oither countries where they're not welcome. So we've got to ban hamburgers so all these fat Americans will not feel welcome and will go back to where they came from. Their culture of violence is not welcome anywhere in the world (except maybe Somalia). Synagogues Hitler really should have wiped out the Jews. Did you know that Jewish women have to follow certain rules about behaviour? Judaism is obviously about oppressing women and has to be wiped out. I suppose things have changed now, but back then, in the 1940s, they should have been wiped out. You can't trust anyone to do anything right, honestly. Damnit, thinking about all these people and cutlures and objects and motifs that should be destroyed is really making me mad. Grrrr... Makes me want to beat up some Muslims. I live in a multiracial country, I'm sure I can find one... oh look, there's one. Oh no, she's not wearing a veil, so she can't be Muslim. Because all Muslims wear veils, obviously. I know that you're just saying this to exaggerate what has been said just to show these people how close-minded they're being, but for some strange reason, I find myself agreeing with many of these positions, even if it's only in principle. It's to be expected. But the point is that disagreeing with one aspect of a system does not mean you can get rid of the entire system. America may say, "we don't want honour killings here, that would be murder." But it will not say, "honour killings are a part of Islam, so we're banning any symbols of Islam here." Likewise you might say, "we do not support civilians carrying arms, we ban that here." But that should not turn into "The right to bear arms is an American thing, therefore we ban all symbols of America." It's the societies that are the most open and accepting that attract the most talent and improve the fastest, not those who close themsleves off from the rest of the world. Even so, you cannot deny that radical Islam is a legitimate threat and the fears of people in Switzerland aren't completely unfounded, even if they may be somewhat misguided. Also, I believe that immigrants should abide by the desires of their hosts within reasonable bounds, if only to be good neighbors because they are guests. Banning minarets is different from banning mosques. It's similar to how schools ban du-rags, they aren't making a statement against black people in general, they are merely trying to combat the "gangster" image, even though the articles of clothing themselves don't hurt anyone. In any case, even if it is a misguided fear, the Muslims should be able to understand people's concerns, especially when the society they come from tend to be much more intolerant towards others. Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 16:07 Velr wrote:
It's the societies that are the most open and accepting that attract the most talent and improve the fastest, not those who close themsleves off from the rest of the world.
It's the societies that pay the most and let you do whatever the fuck you want in your privacy, nothing else... But dream on. Agreed, the world is not as utopian as the way you put it, the Storyteller.
utopian? who's being utopian? you have, let's say, 4 billion people on earth. you make 1 billion of them feel unwelcome, not because of talent but because they're different. don't you think you're going to be at a disadvantage compared to a country that welcomes them all? that is america's competitive advantage - it welcomes everyone with talent. scientists, economists, professionals from all over the world work there and help the economy.
on a smaller scale, how long do you think a compan would last if it made women feel unwelcome? half its talent pool would vanish.
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On December 02 2009 10:48 Hinanawi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 10:37 Biff The Understudy wrote:On December 02 2009 10:31 Hinanawi wrote:On December 02 2009 10:28 Biff The Understudy wrote:
People are scared by islam. For good reason. I don't think christian fundamentalists are less crazy nor dangerous than muslim fundamentalists. Are you serious? Look, I'm an atheist, but this is silly, you know that's a lie. Christian fundamentalists tell me I'm going to hell and give me dirty looks. Muslim fundamentalists want to kill me. There is no comparison.
On the contrrary, I am extremely serious. At least Muslim fundamentalists have kind of a political struggle (I don't justify them, but there is not only madness in their actions). Christian fundamentalists are just fucked up.
I really think christian fundamentalist are much, much more dangerous in the long term. ?ot the same way, it's true.
You know, talking of fundamentalism, that the two places where Muslim and Christian fundamentalism appeared the strongest in the last 25 years: Afghanistan and Utah where both places of huuuuge social struggle: Afghanistan had a Communist party which took the power idependantly of teh USSR before 1979, and Utah was the place where most radical thinker came from in the USA.
Fundamentalism is the price we pay for evacuating the social struggle and the radical left wing in general. And when it is not fundamentalism, it is nihilist a-political irrational violence (I think for example of Paris riots, few years ago).
Now extrem-right politicians say that yeaaah we have a new ennemy: immigration, muslim, terrorist, and like a bunch of idiots we agree and we vote racists laws. The ennemy is never outside, it is inside, we should know that since Orwell: "There is only one universal war: the war of rich against the poors."
World is going nowhere.
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On December 02 2009 19:44 The Storyteller wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 16:18 ghostWriter wrote:On December 02 2009 15:59 The Storyteller wrote:On December 02 2009 15:50 ghostWriter wrote:On December 02 2009 15:37 The Storyteller wrote:On November 30 2009 07:52 Foucault wrote:
I don't really see a reason to spread religion in the world to be honest. Islam to me is oppression and women being held down by ridiculous religious beliefs. Of course there are nice things to arabic culture, but Islam is not it On December 02 2009 00:06 ggrrg wrote:
Yeah sure. It's far better to let them completely bar themselves from society. Since the mosques offer a place to spend time and pass activities, guess where many turks decide to spend all of their time? I honestly cannot imagine how they would integrate in Germany if they continue like this...
Agree 100% with these and other similar comments. It's about time we did something about people who refuse to integrate and whose culturesa are a menace to society. Hopefully banning minarets due to the Islamisation of Switzerland will just be the first step to banning these other things as well: Computer games Computer games are full of violence and ridiculous beliefs. They overtly tell people to kill other people and turn to a life of crime. Starcraft to me, especially, is about cruelty to insects and ridiculous beliefs. Of course there are nice things to computers, but computer games is not it. If we do not ban computer games, computer gamers will continue to stay in their bedrooms playing games instead of intergrating with society. Honestly, how can they possibly integrate? Crucifixes and Catholic churches Crucifixes are an important part of Catholicism. Catholicism to me is all about wild sex without usiong condoms and priests molesting little boys. We have to ban crucifixes before this gets out of hand. Churches have to go as well. Catholics all congregate there instead of integrating. This could lead to a very dangerous situation where they just have unprotected sex with each other and breed more dangerous Catholics. Ban churches and crucifixes ASAP. Pornography Pornography to me is all about oppression of women and women being held down by various metal and leather implements. Of course, there are nice things to movies, but pornography is not it. All these porn stars and directors have their own niche markets and their own video awards. We've got to ban all these as well so they can integrate. Hamburgers American culture is all about violence. The right to bear arms is written in the constitution. They also like to invade other countries like Iraq, Afghanistan and Vietnam. of course, America is not ALL about violence, but it's better to get rid of the whole lot of them anyway. The trouble with Americans is that they won't stay in their own country, despite it being so big. They keep going to oither countries where they're not welcome. So we've got to ban hamburgers so all these fat Americans will not feel welcome and will go back to where they came from. Their culture of violence is not welcome anywhere in the world (except maybe Somalia). Synagogues Hitler really should have wiped out the Jews. Did you know that Jewish women have to follow certain rules about behaviour? Judaism is obviously about oppressing women and has to be wiped out. I suppose things have changed now, but back then, in the 1940s, they should have been wiped out. You can't trust anyone to do anything right, honestly. Damnit, thinking about all these people and cutlures and objects and motifs that should be destroyed is really making me mad. Grrrr... Makes me want to beat up some Muslims. I live in a multiracial country, I'm sure I can find one... oh look, there's one. Oh no, she's not wearing a veil, so she can't be Muslim. Because all Muslims wear veils, obviously. I know that you're just saying this to exaggerate what has been said just to show these people how close-minded they're being, but for some strange reason, I find myself agreeing with many of these positions, even if it's only in principle. It's to be expected. But the point is that disagreeing with one aspect of a system does not mean you can get rid of the entire system. America may say, "we don't want honour killings here, that would be murder." But it will not say, "honour killings are a part of Islam, so we're banning any symbols of Islam here." Likewise you might say, "we do not support civilians carrying arms, we ban that here." But that should not turn into "The right to bear arms is an American thing, therefore we ban all symbols of America." It's the societies that are the most open and accepting that attract the most talent and improve the fastest, not those who close themsleves off from the rest of the world. Even so, you cannot deny that radical Islam is a legitimate threat and the fears of people in Switzerland aren't completely unfounded, even if they may be somewhat misguided. Also, I believe that immigrants should abide by the desires of their hosts within reasonable bounds, if only to be good neighbors because they are guests. Banning minarets is different from banning mosques. It's similar to how schools ban du-rags, they aren't making a statement against black people in general, they are merely trying to combat the "gangster" image, even though the articles of clothing themselves don't hurt anyone. In any case, even if it is a misguided fear, the Muslims should be able to understand people's concerns, especially when the society they come from tend to be much more intolerant towards others. On December 02 2009 16:07 Velr wrote:
It's the societies that are the most open and accepting that attract the most talent and improve the fastest, not those who close themsleves off from the rest of the world.
It's the societies that pay the most and let you do whatever the fuck you want in your privacy, nothing else... But dream on. Agreed, the world is not as utopian as the way you put it, the Storyteller. utopian? who's being utopian? you have, let's say, 4 billion people on earth. you make 1 billion of them feel unwelcome, not because of talent but because they're different. don't you think you're going to be at a disadvantage compared to a country that welcomes them all? that is america's competitive advantage - it welcomes everyone with talent. scientists, economists, professionals from all over the world work there and help the economy.
oh god, where do these people crawl from?...
Are you fucking living in 1890?, USA has one of the most strict migration policies in the whole planet, its actually the only country in the whole god damn world world who is actively building a wall to avoid migration.
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@Storyteller:
You know that last years global competition ranking had Switzerland at 1 and the USA at 2?
You know there are tons of companies that make Woman feel unwelcome in the higher ranks, if this is by accident or a decision doesn't matter here. The higher ranks in companies are often still a boys club. I don't think this is good, but it is that way.
I also highly doubt not having a tower on a Mosque or being against Burqas, "forcing" Womans rights and various other stuff is holding the elite back from going anywhere... Except it's an elite you don't want anyway.
And i highly doubt that it has more of an effect on the *elite* than the US foreign politics of the last 20-30 years or various other factors.
Btw: If europeans talk about *typical* muslim immigrants it's not an *elite* thats coming or is allready here, it was/is cheap labour force with no/nearly no education, more, if at all, comparable to your mexican/south american immigration..
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On December 02 2009 20:10 intruding wrote:
No one will take Muslims seriously until they achieve at least 1 of the following 4 points;
1-Start respecting women
2-Reduce combined worldwide bombings to less than 3 weeks each year expressed in continuous time.
3-Start respecting human rights and giving freedom a prominent place in society.
4-Win at least 2% of the Nobel Prizes in science given their 20% + share of the world population
In other words: I respect your difference if you are exactly same than me.
My godness... Sigh.
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i heard about it, and i agree actually. I know, i know it's not suppoused to be like this, freedom, etc, but still if a country wants to protect itself from external influence, i'd say it's their right to do so.
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On December 02 2009 20:17 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 20:10 intruding wrote:
No one will take Muslims seriously until they achieve at least 1 of the following 4 points;
1-Start respecting women
2-Reduce combined worldwide bombings to less than 3 weeks each year expressed in continuous time.
3-Start respecting human rights and giving freedom a prominent place in society.
4-Win at least 2% of the Nobel Prizes in science given their 20% + share of the world population
In other words: I respect your difference if you are exactly same than me. My godness... Sigh.
*respect you if your differences dont involve being inhumane dumbasses
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On December 02 2009 20:10 intruding wrote:
No one will take Muslims seriously until they achieve at least 1 of the following 4 points;
1-Start respecting women
2-Reduce combined worldwide bombings to less than 3 weeks each year expressed in continuous time.
3-Start respecting human rights and giving freedom a prominent place in society.
4-Win at least 2% of the Nobel Prizes in science given their 20% + share of the world population
Do you hate black people too?
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On December 02 2009 20:23 Yuljan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 20:10 intruding wrote:
No one will take Muslims seriously until they achieve at least 1 of the following 4 points;
1-Start respecting women
2-Reduce combined worldwide bombings to less than 3 weeks each year expressed in continuous time.
3-Start respecting human rights and giving freedom a prominent place in society.
4-Win at least 2% of the Nobel Prizes in science given their 20% + share of the world population
Do you hate black people too?
English much?
He said at least one of these four points. I don't would sign his points but they are not that far off.
Oh, and bringing skin color into a discussion about religion is really stupid.
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I'm not sure if you guys realize it, but there's a bit of a difference between genetic traits you're born with (skin color, sexuality, etc), and your religion of choice. I know many societies and families force it upon children, but your religion is most definitely not something you are born with. There's nothing preventing it from being free game to critique, just like any other beliefs or ideas you might have.
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On December 02 2009 19:07 InsideTheBox wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 18:26 johanes wrote:On December 02 2009 18:00 intruding wrote:
I'm deeply concerned about the popularity of atheism here. Being atheist is as dumb as being religious. Religions and all its interpretations are obviously complete bullshit. But its equally idiotic to reject the existence of God simply because the masses have believed in their erroneous opinions about God over the millenniums. There is indeed a creator. It's just that everything revolving around it that is man-made or spiritual and moral about it, religion, has been utterly misconceived and misinterpreted and has led to bloodshed.
God exists, it's just that man's interpretation of it has traditionally been moronic. Therefore; deism should be the religious stance of choice. Agnostism would come second. But please, being a hardcore atheist is very very strange and disturbing. sorry, but if you use brain, then there is simply no reason to believe in god, so being atheist is the only logical choice for me. I consider myself man of science and i would like to hear your reasons for your claim, that there is indeed a creator. Why? How can you be so sure about it? You can't. As well as i can't be really sure that there is no god. I can choose freely not to believe as you can choose to believe. But then to belive is dumb as well, because we have arrived to our conclusions followinfg the same thinking pattern. So don't just please post atheist is dumb. You're right in criticizing his attack on atheism, but choosing not to believe in a god is not a logical progression from being a "man of science." You have proof for neither the existence or absence of a god, and as a man of science should not be able to reach any conclusion. You may choose to pursue a life where the absence of proof implies falsity, but it's generally a poor principle. Anything labeled a theory (evolution, big bang, etc) has yet to be proven and if you apply the aforementioned principle generally then you'd end up not with the falsity of many accepted scientific ideas. I understand that on intuition or some other reason you may not believe in the existence of a god, but it's certainly not for a scientific reason so don't claim it to be as such. As for this entire thread, I find the number of people lingering on the idea of a fundamentalist threat as a basis for bans on how people express their religious views extremely disturbing.
Ofcourse, you are right. Atheism isn't logical, it is basically belief too, just belivenig into the opposite. I was trying to argue wit his rank 1. deism 2. agnostism 3. atheism as it is clearly bad from logical point of view. Correctly it would be : 1 agnostism 2.+3. (on the same level) deism and atheism
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On December 02 2009 20:21 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 20:17 Biff The Understudy wrote:On December 02 2009 20:10 intruding wrote:
No one will take Muslims seriously until they achieve at least 1 of the following 4 points;
1-Start respecting women
2-Reduce combined worldwide bombings to less than 3 weeks each year expressed in continuous time.
3-Start respecting human rights and giving freedom a prominent place in society.
4-Win at least 2% of the Nobel Prizes in science given their 20% + share of the world population
In other words: I respect your difference if you are exactly same than me. My godness... Sigh. *respect you if your differences dont involve being inhumane dumbasses
Yeah I know, everybody who is not white male american, do not support capitalism, do not eat Hamburgers, is not feminist and do not sing the national anthem at the national holiday is a inhumane dumbass.
We knew that already, thanks.
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On December 02 2009 21:11 intruding wrote:
Biff, you ever considered a career in offtopicness?
You'd be great.
If you mind reading the whole dialogue.
Thanks.
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On December 02 2009 15:37 The Storyteller wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 30 2009 07:52 Foucault wrote:
I don't really see a reason to spread religion in the world to be honest. Islam to me is oppression and women being held down by ridiculous religious beliefs. Of course there are nice things to arabic culture, but Islam is not it On December 02 2009 00:06 ggrrg wrote:
Yeah sure. It's far better to let them completely bar themselves from society. Since the mosques offer a place to spend time and pass activities, guess where many turks decide to spend all of their time? I honestly cannot imagine how they would integrate in Germany if they continue like this...
Agree 100% with these and other similar comments. It's about time we did something about people who refuse to integrate and whose culturesa are a menace to society. Hopefully banning minarets due to the Islamisation of Switzerland will just be the first step to banning these other things as well: Computer games Computer games are full of violence and ridiculous beliefs. They overtly tell people to kill other people and turn to a life of crime. Starcraft to me, especially, is about cruelty to insects and ridiculous beliefs. Of course there are nice things to computers, but computer games is not it. If we do not ban computer games, computer gamers will continue to stay in their bedrooms playing games instead of intergrating with society. Honestly, how can they possibly integrate? Crucifixes and Catholic churches Crucifixes are an important part of Catholicism. Catholicism to me is all about wild sex without usiong condoms and priests molesting little boys. We have to ban crucifixes before this gets out of hand. Churches have to go as well. Catholics all congregate there instead of integrating. This could lead to a very dangerous situation where they just have unprotected sex with each other and breed more dangerous Catholics. Ban churches and crucifixes ASAP. Pornography Pornography to me is all about oppression of women and women being held down by various metal and leather implements. Of course, there are nice things to movies, but pornography is not it. All these porn stars and directors have their own niche markets and their own video awards. We've got to ban all these as well so they can integrate. Hamburgers American culture is all about violence. The right to bear arms is written in the constitution. They also like to invade other countries like Iraq, Afghanistan and Vietnam. of course, America is not ALL about violence, but it's better to get rid of the whole lot of them anyway. The trouble with Americans is that they won't stay in their own country, despite it being so big. They keep going to oither countries where they're not welcome. So we've got to ban hamburgers so all these fat Americans will not feel welcome and will go back to where they came from. Their culture of violence is not welcome anywhere in the world (except maybe Somalia). Synagogues Hitler really should have wiped out the Jews. Did you know that Jewish women have to follow certain rules about behaviour? Judaism is obviously about oppressing women and has to be wiped out. I suppose things have changed now, but back then, in the 1940s, they should have been wiped out. You can't trust anyone to do anything right, honestly. Damnit, thinking about all these people and cutlures and objects and motifs that should be destroyed is really making me mad. Grrrr... Makes me want to beat up some Muslims. I live in a multiracial country, I'm sure I can find one... oh look, there's one. Oh no, she's not wearing a veil, so she can't be Muslim. Because all Muslims wear veils, obviously.
I understand that in Singapore it works out well with all the religions. And I would love it if did the same way in Europe. I cannot speak about the situation in all European countries, but in Germany it actually does work out with the exception of a large portion of the Muslim community. Germany is a melting pot and has been like that for decades already, but for some reason the Muslim (actually mainly the Turkish Muslim community) seem to be inable to integrate into society like everybody else does. How the hell do these people, which reject the native culture and do not give shit about it, dare to demand that their culture replaces the native one? Sorry, but I am totally opposed to creating a parallel society!
And another "great" aspect of mosques. If you have read my posts before that than you know where the funds for most mosques in Germany come from. These mosques are basically "exclusively Turkish". How the hell, can they speak about "freedom of religion" then?
And I cannot yet stop "praising" our mosques.
When I was in the US, I saw that some church communities organized group excursions to some interesting places. Well, mosques in Germany also organize group trips! But these trips go back to Turkey so the people can vote there for the party in control (because all large Turkish mosques in Germany are under the control of the "Presidency of Religious Affairs" that is a government organization). Yeah, and since there government so caring for them, the Turkish prime minister visited Germany last year. He spoke in front of tens of thousand of Turks and WARNED them not to become assimilated into German society!!! He described this verbally with the words "crime against humanity"! (sure bacause then he would have less votes next election)
On the previous pages, I read comments like "religion is useless, it was only created to control people". Well, it is still used as a political tool.
And here my most recent favorite from Turkey:
The government officially demands that their "Muslim brothers" (these are the exact words used in the announcement) take their money out of Swiss banks and put it into Turkish banks because of the intolerance of Switzerland. Yes, the government that has banned the construction of churches, synagogues, and other non-Muslim temples is complaining about intolerance...
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On December 02 2009 20:12 baal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 19:44 The Storyteller wrote:On December 02 2009 16:18 ghostWriter wrote:On December 02 2009 15:59 The Storyteller wrote:On December 02 2009 15:50 ghostWriter wrote:On December 02 2009 15:37 The Storyteller wrote:On November 30 2009 07:52 Foucault wrote:
I don't really see a reason to spread religion in the world to be honest. Islam to me is oppression and women being held down by ridiculous religious beliefs. Of course there are nice things to arabic culture, but Islam is not it On December 02 2009 00:06 ggrrg wrote:
Yeah sure. It's far better to let them completely bar themselves from society. Since the mosques offer a place to spend time and pass activities, guess where many turks decide to spend all of their time? I honestly cannot imagine how they would integrate in Germany if they continue like this...
Agree 100% with these and other similar comments. It's about time we did something about people who refuse to integrate and whose culturesa are a menace to society. Hopefully banning minarets due to the Islamisation of Switzerland will just be the first step to banning these other things as well: Computer games Computer games are full of violence and ridiculous beliefs. They overtly tell people to kill other people and turn to a life of crime. Starcraft to me, especially, is about cruelty to insects and ridiculous beliefs. Of course there are nice things to computers, but computer games is not it. If we do not ban computer games, computer gamers will continue to stay in their bedrooms playing games instead of intergrating with society. Honestly, how can they possibly integrate? Crucifixes and Catholic churches Crucifixes are an important part of Catholicism. Catholicism to me is all about wild sex without usiong condoms and priests molesting little boys. We have to ban crucifixes before this gets out of hand. Churches have to go as well. Catholics all congregate there instead of integrating. This could lead to a very dangerous situation where they just have unprotected sex with each other and breed more dangerous Catholics. Ban churches and crucifixes ASAP. Pornography Pornography to me is all about oppression of women and women being held down by various metal and leather implements. Of course, there are nice things to movies, but pornography is not it. All these porn stars and directors have their own niche markets and their own video awards. We've got to ban all these as well so they can integrate. Hamburgers American culture is all about violence. The right to bear arms is written in the constitution. They also like to invade other countries like Iraq, Afghanistan and Vietnam. of course, America is not ALL about violence, but it's better to get rid of the whole lot of them anyway. The trouble with Americans is that they won't stay in their own country, despite it being so big. They keep going to oither countries where they're not welcome. So we've got to ban hamburgers so all these fat Americans will not feel welcome and will go back to where they came from. Their culture of violence is not welcome anywhere in the world (except maybe Somalia). Synagogues Hitler really should have wiped out the Jews. Did you know that Jewish women have to follow certain rules about behaviour? Judaism is obviously about oppressing women and has to be wiped out. I suppose things have changed now, but back then, in the 1940s, they should have been wiped out. You can't trust anyone to do anything right, honestly. Damnit, thinking about all these people and cutlures and objects and motifs that should be destroyed is really making me mad. Grrrr... Makes me want to beat up some Muslims. I live in a multiracial country, I'm sure I can find one... oh look, there's one. Oh no, she's not wearing a veil, so she can't be Muslim. Because all Muslims wear veils, obviously. I know that you're just saying this to exaggerate what has been said just to show these people how close-minded they're being, but for some strange reason, I find myself agreeing with many of these positions, even if it's only in principle. It's to be expected. But the point is that disagreeing with one aspect of a system does not mean you can get rid of the entire system. America may say, "we don't want honour killings here, that would be murder." But it will not say, "honour killings are a part of Islam, so we're banning any symbols of Islam here." Likewise you might say, "we do not support civilians carrying arms, we ban that here." But that should not turn into "The right to bear arms is an American thing, therefore we ban all symbols of America." It's the societies that are the most open and accepting that attract the most talent and improve the fastest, not those who close themsleves off from the rest of the world. Even so, you cannot deny that radical Islam is a legitimate threat and the fears of people in Switzerland aren't completely unfounded, even if they may be somewhat misguided. Also, I believe that immigrants should abide by the desires of their hosts within reasonable bounds, if only to be good neighbors because they are guests. Banning minarets is different from banning mosques. It's similar to how schools ban du-rags, they aren't making a statement against black people in general, they are merely trying to combat the "gangster" image, even though the articles of clothing themselves don't hurt anyone. In any case, even if it is a misguided fear, the Muslims should be able to understand people's concerns, especially when the society they come from tend to be much more intolerant towards others. On December 02 2009 16:07 Velr wrote:
It's the societies that are the most open and accepting that attract the most talent and improve the fastest, not those who close themsleves off from the rest of the world.
It's the societies that pay the most and let you do whatever the fuck you want in your privacy, nothing else... But dream on. Agreed, the world is not as utopian as the way you put it, the Storyteller. utopian? who's being utopian? you have, let's say, 4 billion people on earth. you make 1 billion of them feel unwelcome, not because of talent but because they're different. don't you think you're going to be at a disadvantage compared to a country that welcomes them all? that is america's competitive advantage - it welcomes everyone with talent. scientists, economists, professionals from all over the world work there and help the economy. oh god, where do these people crawl from?... Are you fucking living in 1890?, USA has one of the most strict migration policies in the whole planet, its actually the only country in the whole god damn world world who is actively building a wall to avoid migration.
QFT. America doesn't welcome people, neither does Canada really for that matter. I've heard way too many stories of competent people being turned down for visa's for me to beleive that.
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On December 02 2009 21:23 ggrrg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 15:37 The Storyteller wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 30 2009 07:52 Foucault wrote:
I don't really see a reason to spread religion in the world to be honest. Islam to me is oppression and women being held down by ridiculous religious beliefs. Of course there are nice things to arabic culture, but Islam is not it On December 02 2009 00:06 ggrrg wrote:
Yeah sure. It's far better to let them completely bar themselves from society. Since the mosques offer a place to spend time and pass activities, guess where many turks decide to spend all of their time? I honestly cannot imagine how they would integrate in Germany if they continue like this...
Agree 100% with these and other similar comments. It's about time we did something about people who refuse to integrate and whose culturesa are a menace to society. Hopefully banning minarets due to the Islamisation of Switzerland will just be the first step to banning these other things as well: Computer games Computer games are full of violence and ridiculous beliefs. They overtly tell people to kill other people and turn to a life of crime. Starcraft to me, especially, is about cruelty to insects and ridiculous beliefs. Of course there are nice things to computers, but computer games is not it. If we do not ban computer games, computer gamers will continue to stay in their bedrooms playing games instead of intergrating with society. Honestly, how can they possibly integrate? Crucifixes and Catholic churches Crucifixes are an important part of Catholicism. Catholicism to me is all about wild sex without usiong condoms and priests molesting little boys. We have to ban crucifixes before this gets out of hand. Churches have to go as well. Catholics all congregate there instead of integrating. This could lead to a very dangerous situation where they just have unprotected sex with each other and breed more dangerous Catholics. Ban churches and crucifixes ASAP. Pornography Pornography to me is all about oppression of women and women being held down by various metal and leather implements. Of course, there are nice things to movies, but pornography is not it. All these porn stars and directors have their own niche markets and their own video awards. We've got to ban all these as well so they can integrate. Hamburgers American culture is all about violence. The right to bear arms is written in the constitution. They also like to invade other countries like Iraq, Afghanistan and Vietnam. of course, America is not ALL about violence, but it's better to get rid of the whole lot of them anyway. The trouble with Americans is that they won't stay in their own country, despite it being so big. They keep going to oither countries where they're not welcome. So we've got to ban hamburgers so all these fat Americans will not feel welcome and will go back to where they came from. Their culture of violence is not welcome anywhere in the world (except maybe Somalia). Synagogues Hitler really should have wiped out the Jews. Did you know that Jewish women have to follow certain rules about behaviour? Judaism is obviously about oppressing women and has to be wiped out. I suppose things have changed now, but back then, in the 1940s, they should have been wiped out. You can't trust anyone to do anything right, honestly. Damnit, thinking about all these people and cutlures and objects and motifs that should be destroyed is really making me mad. Grrrr... Makes me want to beat up some Muslims. I live in a multiracial country, I'm sure I can find one... oh look, there's one. Oh no, she's not wearing a veil, so she can't be Muslim. Because all Muslims wear veils, obviously. I understand that in Singapore it works out well with all the religions. And I would love it if did the same way in Europe. I cannot speak about the situation in all European countries, but in Germany it actually does work out with the exception of a large portion of the Muslim community. Germany is a melting pot and has been like that for decades already, but for some reason the Muslim (actually mainly the Turkish Muslim community) seem to be inable to integrate into society like everybody else does. How the hell do these people, which reject the native culture and do not give shit about it, dare to demand that their culture replaces the native one? Sorry, but I am totally opposed to creating a parallel society! And another "great" aspect of mosques. If you have read my posts before that than you know where the funds for most mosques in Germany come from. These mosques are basically "exclusively Turkish". How the hell, can they speak about "freedom of religion" then? And I cannot yet stop "praising" our mosques. When I was in the US, I saw that some church communities organized group excursions to some interesting places. Well, mosques in Germany also organize group trips! But these trips go back to Turkey so the people can vote there for the party in control (because all large Turkish mosques in Germany are under the control of the "Presidency of Religious Affairs" that is a government organization). Yeah, and since there government so caring for them, the Turkish prime minister visited Germany last year. He spoke in front of tens of thousand of Turks and WARNED them not to become assimilated into German society!!! He described this verbally with the words "crime against humanity"! (sure bacause then he would have less votes next election) On the previous pages, I read comments like "religion is useless, it was only created to control people". Well, it is still used as a political tool. And here my most recent favorite from Turkey: The government officially demands that their "Muslim brothers" (these are the exact words used in the announcement) take their money out of Swiss banks and put it into Turkish banks because of the intolerance of Switzerland. Yes, the government that has banned the construction of churches, synagogues, and other non-Muslim temples is complaining about intolerance...
I don't know about Germany, but I know about France.
There are no problems with Muslims, at all. There is a mosque in my district, in Paris, with a minaret, and everything is very nice. I go sometimes eat a lookoom or having a mint tea, they are very friendly, very moderate. Because they are accepted, and that the mosquee is beautiful.
There is a real problem with poverty. And it happens that people the most vulnerable to poverty are immigrants, and that lot of them are muslim. French society is horribly unfair, as are all western societies today. If you are arab, if you come from a shitty suburb, there is just no way that you will get another job than working in a fast food. You go to a shitty school, cops are fucking awful with you, you are basically fucked.
People don't think in term of social struggle anymore. Thirty years ago, all theses people would have syndicate, and would be engaged in politics. But now, it's not possible anymore, so they just burn cars and listen to fundamentalists preachers.
So people get scared and start to complain about islam. But islam has been there for 50 years, and it has never been a problem.
Now, you can't put all muslims in one bag, as this guy did a few post ago, and saying that muslim coming from Marocco are responsible for Palestinians bombing Israel (and even though, there are serious reasons for that) or Iranians opressing women.
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