Switzerland bans Minarets - Page 35

Adeeler

United Kingdom764 Posts

December 04 2009 16:59 GMT

#681

Racism it never going away as long as people keep believing everything they are told on tv without checking any facts.

What do you call someone that lives in Europe but denies the principles and values of the society he lives in, someone that basically denies to be a part of society?

Things like this are quite odd in the round about way it defames a group people. "denies the principles and values of the society he lives in"; the principles and values of the west are not different from Islam if you check and see what they really are. People will say its its about wife beating, no rights for women, homosexual bashing and so forth but when you actually check those things are outlawed other then homosexuality isn't allowed and only in countries where its the law of the land. When in another country you have to abide by its laws. In Islam women have more then equal rights as in Islam as men are duty bound to support the family if they can, but if a woman can work then she is free to do so and the man can stay at home and raise the kids. If a man hits a woman he goes to hell too so I don't even get what thats about but that is something that happens all over the world in every group of people at least a person of a faith has an extra reason not to do it other then common sense.

And calling groups "Islamist" when they break the actual laws of Islam is just simple propaganda hate inciting by association but it doesn't stop every news station from saying it and making people in turn think it blindly. They may want to call themselves or even believe they are following Islam but they aren't they are just crazy people plain and simple which is obvious in how irrational they are in targeting innocent people. Those people are so far from Islam they lose the right to use its name but the spread of hate for political reasons bashs an entire faith because of what crazy people claiming they are off that faith are doing.

Also what is modern day Western Culture? Is it what people do is there culture? Or is it all about buildings? What people do is work, hang out with friends and such and I don't see what other then the fact that western people drink alcohol is different. Thats probably a major part of western culture just drinking but its not something that bothers anyone other then when people are drunk and that bothers everyone. If its buildings then why are all new buildings in all in new modern style and not in olden historic styles? All the modern style buildings seem go against the local style of churchs and old buildings too so they are wrong also?

People should just stop hating.

P.S. My grammar is terrible.

ggrrg

Bulgaria2716 Posts

December 04 2009 17:24 GMT

#682

On December 05 2009 00:55 KlaCkoN wrote:

Show nested quote +

This post is fairly ironic to me since a lot, if not even most, people in for example Sweden would say the exact same thing about Bulgarians, or eastern europeans in general.
"They are poorly educated, beat their wifes, refuse to assimilate or even get real jobs, they form gangs and shoot people on our streets". Is generally how it goes.
I would guess you disagree fairly strongly with the above statements? Just think about that, and think about how valid perceptions and prejudices actually are =p

Actually, I fairly strongly agree with the statements above. Fact is the majority of people, who come from Bulgaria (or any other Eastern European country as far as I know) can be put in the groups: There are the very poor people that have no education at all, who hope (often enough they are actually getting ripped of by human smugglers by being deceived to think) that West Europe is a paradise and after reaching any Western country their lives will change dramatically. And just like many other poor communities violence and crime thrive in there. The second major group of Eastern immigrants are the ones that upon finishing high school, go to a Western university with the intention to stay there and find good jobs after getting their degrees.
Now the question is why do Swedes (and other Western people) stereotype all Bulgarians based only on the first group? I strongly believe the reason is because they do have a much weaker perception of the second group simply because this group does not stand out. This group does not draw attention in any positive or negative way. It basically merges with the local population -> it has pretty much succeeded in integration.
I believe this is pretty similar to the situation of Muslims in Europe. (And although most Muslims stand out in the crowd more than Eastern Europeans) I think that there are a lot of Muslims, who have learned to fit into society, who have learned to live with society here. And there is also the other group that for one or another reason sturggles to become integrated.
And although I see that the poor and non-educated people (be it Muslims or Bulgarians or whatever) struggle to integrate often enough for reason that are not their fault, I still do not think that we should allow them to create a parallel society or impose their values on the whole society.

By the way, the situation of most Bulgarian immigrants is quite different from the situation of Turkish people in Germany that I am complaining about. These Bulgarians have immigrated just recently while many Turks in Germany are already in the third generation here and still want to seclude themselves. I do not know how good this Bulgarians will have integrated in 50 years, but fact is most Turks in Germany have failed badly in integrating and I do not think that it would become any better if they continue to build more bigger and greater mosques in Germany (actually I am pretty sure that it will be contraproductive).

On December 05 2009 01:10 Boonbag wrote:

Show nested quote +

You really don't get it. All the points you are debating never ever reach that kind of level of thought.

Do you think voters in switzerland went through the same process than you ? Do you think they actually thought and discussed all that before casting their vote ?

We are here talking about stupidity on a very large scale of the population.

Moreover what Klackson wrote is right to the point.

Most of western countries inhabitants (old ones especially) hold a very heavy racist grudge against any foreigner that isn't white with blue eyes.

What you fail to picture is the social type of the persons that actually voted this ban. Would you be able to, I'm pretty sure you would'nt want to be acquainted through your vote with any of those =[

They don't want to ban Islam, they want to ban Middle east typed people from their country.

It's too bad you can't understand french and can't read all the switzerland / french news and papers on the topic they would enlighten you.

I completely understand that a lot of people who backed the vote did it because of racist views. I still do not think that all, who voted yes are racist. Although I am inclined to believe that the majority did backed it because of some unfounded fear from Islam and a general dislike of Muslim culture (which is definitely not the same as hating all Arabs). However, all of that does not change my point of view on mosques and minarets.

By the way, what makes you think that I do not understand French? But I must admit that I have not read any Swiss or French media on this subject. Maybe I should...

Magic84

Russian Federation1381 Posts

December 04 2009 17:24 GMT

#683

On December 05 2009 01:59 Adeeler wrote:
And calling groups "Islamist" when they break the actual laws of Islam is just simple propaganda hate inciting by association but it doesn't stop every news station from saying it and making people in turn think it blindly. They may want to call themselves or even believe they are following Islam but they aren't they are just crazy people plain and simple which is obvious in how irrational they are in targeting innocent people. Those people are so far from Islam they lose the right to use its name but the spread of hate for political reasons bashs an entire faith because of what crazy people claiming they are off that faith are doing.

People should just stop hating.

P.S. My grammar is terrible.

You are parroting propaganda yourself with these statements, the "crazy people" just have to defend their homes, their culture and their freedom. But the other parts of your post are perfect, especially regarding modern times "culture". I'm not muslim or arabic, but it saddens me when people are blindly parroting pro-israel and anti-islam and anti-arabic information propaganda.

Boonbag

France3318 Posts

December 04 2009 17:46 GMT

#684

On December 05 2009 02:24 ggrrg wrote:
By the way, what makes you think that I do not understand French? But I must admit that I have not read any Swiss or French media on this subject. Maybe I should...

I just assumed you couldn't if you can I might give you a link to an interview done today of social CNRS french researcher on the topic.

http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2009/12/04/tous-les-parametres-sont-reunis-pour-expliquer-le-regain-de-scepticisme-vis-a-vis-de-l-islam_1276119_3224.html

Adeeler

United Kingdom764 Posts

December 04 2009 17:48 GMT

#685

Personally I think all these terrorist acts that happen are all rigged by western organisations. The reason I say this is that outside iraq the terrorist acts are never on targets that would ever have an impact on the continued running of that society as a whole. Miltary/intelligence targets are never targeted only soft targets that when hit improve that countries military/intelligence power.

If their where any real terrorists and not brainwashed idiots then then the targets would be control stuctures and not innocent people. Its not hard to understand how ridiculous the situation is and how fast it would change if the stock market or banks or military bases where hit rather then buses. But you'll never see that happen as that doesn't further western power and only acts that do ever happen.

Stratos_speAr

United States6959 Posts

December 04 2009 20:12 GMT

#686

On December 03 2009 03:31 iG.ClouD wrote:
Why is people still convinced we can get along well with muslims? We simply can't. Their religion basics are pretty much against what we have fought through the latter half of the 20th century. Add to that their immigrants are simply poorly educated and mostly ignorant people (which means their religious beliefs are stronger than in average people) and it's not hard to understand why we - or in this case, swiss people - think of them as a problem.

You know the Bible has PLENTY of racist and sexist content in it, yet you don't see the vast majority of Christianity going around stomping human rights. The average Muslim isn't some anti-civil rights right-wing nutjob that wants to blow up a building. Islam can be interpreted just as Christianity is nowadays.

Stratos_speAr

United States6959 Posts

December 04 2009 20:33 GMT

#687

European countries don't have the legal jurisdiction to act in that case. Should we then just start saying, "Fuck you" to religions because we don't like a few of their teachings? So why don't we do that to Christianity? Oh yea, because we forced them to adapt to basic human rights that everyone should have and left the rest to them. You can do the same with Islam. You fight the government establishment of religion and religious laws, not the religion itself. Like I've said so many times, we did it with Christianity, we can do it with Islam.

Boonbag

France3318 Posts

December 04 2009 20:53 GMT

#688

On December 05 2009 01:26 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:
Boonbag tell me how the law acts on such a case:

"The whole pakistani family is going to pakistan for vacation. There the children get married to some strangers. After the marriage (maybe 2 to 3 years) the kids come back. This is done to provide a residence authorization to the husband f.e."

In such cases a clear violation of a law (no forced marriage) is not persecuted at all, so stop talking bullshit.

Also stop telling that ppl in Switzerland dont debate a lot before going to vote. I have first hand information as I'm actually swiss and able to vote and I discussed a shitload of times about this exact issue with yes and no voters. Yes voters are not generally racists, they get along with many races mostly they hate "jugos" which aren't even moslems that often. I really played with the thought to vote yes on that one (instead of showing protest against such ridiculous votes with not voting at all) and im not racist for sure as I was always hanging with all kind of ethnicies and even helping them to stay in switzerland when the government wanted to send them back to albania. so fuck your stereotype idiotic view.

Discussing something you don't know first hand and ending up publicy blaming a whole targeted population upon imaginary fears has alot to do with my own stereotype idiotic view.

Idiot.

Canada4732 Posts

December 04 2009 21:10 GMT

#689

Yes voters are not generally racists, they get along with many races mostly they hate "jugos"

They're not haters, they just hate this one group.

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