EPTSwitzerland bans Minarets - Page 34
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
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bellweather
United States404 Posts
On December 03 2009 06:18 QibingZero wrote: Man, that's troublesome. I mean, the fact I can't build my own personal tower with 'Fuck You' etched into the side in huge letters limits my freedom of expression. I should complain! You see, that's just as crazy an idea as your slippery slope argument is. Governments have been limiting what and where we can build for years. Some of it might have gone too far, but to compare it to making all citizens wear orange jumpsuits is just ridiculous. I concede that perhaps I went too far with the orange jumpsuit analogy, but you can't possibly believe that a "personal fuck you tower" is equivalent in any capacity to minarets given their sociocultural value. Yes federal limits on freedom of expression is a reality, but that doesn't have any bearing on where we should set those limits. Obviously a finite set of restrictions does not give credence to all limits on freedom of expression. | ||
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bellweather
United States404 Posts
I'm glad that you recognized my need to feel great and important. Now I'm fulfilled and won't have to partake in the thread. Thanks for that. | ||
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MoltkeWarding
5195 Posts
On November 30 2009 10:40 gchan wrote: ghostWriter, the Jews were prosecuted because they were conveniently available and passive for the Nazis. Did Hitler really hate Jews? Possibly. But, Jews fit into the paradigm a lot more because the country needed a scapegoat, a source of easy labor, and cheap capital from looting. The propaganda may have indicated it was for religious reasons (although that is doubtful in itself--I'd argue that it was geared towards nationalistic motivations), but the reason why Nazis tolerated it was because of the practicality of persecuting Jews more than anything else. The theoretical basis for persecution of Jews was placed on their possession of certain racial traits which weaken the internal cohesion of the national organism. Hitler argued in Mein Kampf that Jews were primarily to be seen race and not as a religion. In the late-war, he even mentioned that the Jews were not even a biological "race," but a spiritual one. One can dismiss any economic motive behind the persecutions. In its modern incarnation, anti-semitism could not be properly understood without considering the phenomenon of romantic nationalism. Even there, qualifications remain which are historical and national: Fascist Italy embraced many Jewish fascist party members. The qualification for being categorized as a Jew in the Third Reich was anyone more than 50% Jewish by blood, or 50% Jewish plus one of a number of conditions, the most important of which was marriage to a Jew, minus anyone endowed with certificates of Aryanization. In treatment, differentiation was made between regular Jews, and Jewish veterans of WW1, who were accorded better treatment. In addition, Mischlings of the first degree were treated as Jews except for those married to a non-Jew. It's not appropriate to compare anti-semitism with anti-arabism; modern anti-semites despise Jews not because they are unadaptable, but because of their shifty cultural adaptability. | ||
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ghostWriter
United States3302 Posts
In any case, it's not even like the Jews were the only ones who suffered, many people with disabilities, homosexuals, gypsies, Soviets, etc. were killed as well. | ||
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baal
10541 Posts
fuck you and fuck your minarets | ||
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ggrrg
Bulgaria2716 Posts
On December 03 2009 15:53 baal wrote: i changed my mind and im reposting this: fuck you and fuck your minarets http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjO4duhMRZk That guy is hilarious. He is being quite harsh and exaggerates a lot, but he's got a point here and there. | ||
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
1) he doesn't know shit about Islam 2) he just dislikes any arab typed person. I can safely guarantee that over 98% of people concerned by this saying this is not true are liars. This votation was and will always ever be ONLY ABOUT BEEING RACIST. Actual laws already protect citizens from anything bad a religion can do. You beat your wife ? You go to jail. You force someone to do something against his will ? You go to jail. You publicy advocate violence or anything close ? You go to jail. Excision ? You go to jail. Anyone thinking charia is soon to show up in Europe is retarded. Any form of it will be tracked down and annihilated with legal means, because we already have devices against any religious barbarism (for instance). As for the astounding racism this thread displayed undercover of "Barbaric religion bashing", I guess it can't be helped, but anyhow, racist people don't deserve nay help =[ edit : and same goes for religous persons in my opinion. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4838 Posts
On December 04 2009 01:14 Boonbag wrote: This votation was and will always ever be ONLY ABOUT BEEING RACIST. FUCK BEES I'M GOING TO VOTATE AGAINST THEM. | ||
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ggrrg
Bulgaria2716 Posts
On December 04 2009 01:14 Boonbag wrote: + Show Spoiler + The big truth is that anyone that wouldve voted against minaret construction is a racist fuck that is hiding behind "Islam is evil" while in fact : 1) he doesn't know shit about Islam 2) he just dislikes any arab typed person. I can safely guarantee that over 98% of people concerned by this saying this is not true are liars. This votation was and will always ever be ONLY ABOUT BEEING RACIST. Actual laws already protect citizens from anything bad a religion can do. You beat your wife ? You go to jail. You force someone to do something against his will ? You go to jail. You publicy advocate violence or anything close ? You go to jail. Excision ? You go to jail. Anyone thinking charia is soon to show up in Europe is retarded. Any form of it will be tracked down and annihilated with legal means, because we already have devices against any religious barbarism (for instance). As for the astounding racism this thread displayed undercover of "Barbaric religion bashing", I guess it can't be helped, but anyhow, racist people don't deserve nay help =[ edit : and same goes for religous persons in my opinion. The idea of many people must not be "Islam is evil". It's more like "People that totally disrespect my culture and don't give a shit about the values of my country should not try to shove the symbols of greatness of their religion in everybody's face". This claim surely is not true for all Muslims, but there is a fair amount of Muslims, who actually fit into this kind of stereotype. And even worse: the ones that do fit in it try to spread their views to as many people as possible. And honestly the European Union has in common (besides everything else) a shared view on cultural values. Why would you even want to live in Europe if you oppose those values? I am not saying that foreigners should f*ck off, but they should at least TRY to understand European values and at least TRY to fit into society and not just stubbornly close off themselves from the outer world and complain about being discriminated against. Actual laws already protect citizens from anything bad a religion can do. "You beat your wife ? You go to jail." And who will ever complain to make you go to jail, if your wife that has been "imported" (as a good without ever having the right to say something against it) from some village in the near East twenty years ago and does not speak the local language at all, because she basically never gets out of the house, endures everything, because that's the way she is brought up? Maybe your childeren that you have passed on your mentality from early age on? Maybe the community that you live in that has the exactly same views as you do? "You force someone to do something against his will ? You go to jail." Yeah really? When nobody complains about it, because they think that they have to endure their situation or they are just to afraid to complain or they simply know that they will be completely on their own if they complain, then nobody will make you go to jail. Best example are victims of human traffic, who are abused as prostitutes for years, because they are far to afraid to ever try to escape and anyhow have no idea where they can seek help. "You publicy advocate violence or anything close ? You go to jail." You think so? You hold your "speeches" in front of a group of people, who do have the same views as you. Why the hell should they make you go to jail? However, I must admit that the voting in Switzerland did have a racist origin. It was initiated by a nationalist and racist party. However, I cannot imagine that all (not even a quarter) of the people who backed the vote are racists... | ||
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FBS1
United Kingdom875 Posts
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
On December 04 2009 02:35 ggrrg wrote: The idea of many people must not be "Islam is evil". It's more like "People that totally disrespect my culture and don't give a shit about the values of my country should not try to shove the symbols of greatness of their religion in everybody's face". This claim surely is not true for all Muslims, but there is a fair amount of Muslims, who actually fit into this kind of stereotype. And even worse: the ones that do fit in it try to spread their views to as many people as possible. And honestly the European Union has in common (besides everything else) a shared view on cultural values. Why would you even want to live in Europe if you oppose those values? I am not saying that foreigners should f*ck off, but they should at least TRY to understand European values and at least TRY to fit into society and not just stubbornly close off themselves from the outer world and complain about being discriminated against. "You beat your wife ? You go to jail." And who will ever complain to make you go to jail, if your wife that has been "imported" (as a good without ever having the right to say something against it) from some village in the near East twenty years ago and does not speak the local language at all, because she basically never gets out of the house, endures everything, because that's the way she is brought up? Maybe your childeren that you have passed on your mentality from early age on? Maybe the community that you live in that has the exactly same views as you do? "You force someone to do something against his will ? You go to jail." Yeah really? When nobody complains about it, because they think that they have to endure their situation or they are just to afraid to complain or they simply know that they will be completely on their own if they complain, then nobody will make you go to jail. Best example are victims of human traffic, who are abused as prostitutes for years, because they are far to afraid to ever try to escape and anyhow have no idea where they can seek help. "You publicy advocate violence or anything close ? You go to jail." You think so? You hold your "speeches" in front of a group of people, who do have the same views as you. Why the hell should they make you go to jail? However, I must admit that the voting in Switzerland did have a racist origin. It was initiated by a nationalist and racist party. However, I cannot imagine that all (not even a quarter) of the people who backed the vote are racists... You'd be really surprised. I'm living in Paris and my friend in Belgium and I can assure you that racism towards arab looking people is WAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYY older than any of the current debates about Islam. There has been alot of islamic terrorism in france and algeria (still is) before, but back then, never the medias would stereotype muslim migrants as potential terrorists like today. I'm not denying Islamic terrorism very much evolved since the 80's but somehow, it wasn't linked to people. It was Islamic terrorism. But what is very very sad, is that, every single low paid work nobody ever would want to do in France, is done by migrants and if these people weren't coming to our country, we wouldn't be able to construct any building for instance =[ As a arabian typed person in france, unless you hold very high degrees, you will be regarded as shit and will struggle to no end for : Renting an appartement Finding a job outside mc donalds / H&M Actually getting the minimal civic respect from police I lived in a family from pakistan about 3 months, also, as a teenager, I ended up in the shittiest ghetto high school you could ever picture, and most of my friends from high school and onwards were muslim. The way medias picture Islam is very very very targeted and very specific, it tries to make people bielive that Charia is applied within most of muslim migrant families (they shouldn't even be called migrants, since these families have been French for more than 50 years now..................) I witnessed sheep kill in bathrooms (yes that exists =[) I hated every single second of it. I hated the fact that many mothers of my friends couldn't even read or write and were almost like animals in cages, most of you will never be able to imagine in what kind of conditions poor migrant families were put to live by the very country they came to. Oh and btw, if you think Hardcore right winged men actually give a damn about women's condition, I'm sorry for you. The people that made this votation possible and the basic Islamic middle east macho prolly have much more in common than they would ever imagine..... Muslims in Europe do not exist. They aren't muslisms. They are citizens and no citizen should be discriminated because of his confession, his race or his gender. If they're so concerned about Islam's dangers, maybe they should start considering to invest money to give a proper home and a proper republican and critic education to people that need it the most. Btw these same people that don't want Minarets are the same that don't want : homosexuals free thinkers equality between genders right of free speech I'm pretty sure that these politicians are what is the closest to the overall atmosphere of hate that allowed Nazism to exterminate 6 millions persons. | ||
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WeSt
Portugal918 Posts
Now this... seriously, Switzerland is getting a really bad image with this kind of stuff. I just hope there aren't going to be any terrorist incidents after this voting :/ | ||
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old times sake
165 Posts
On December 02 2009 03:02 koreasilver wrote: Since when were blanket statements reputable in any way? The divergences from the topic were generally not initiated by me either, I have just simply been replying to whatever statements that have been said in this thread that suggest that religion is the problem The discussion of the compatibility of religion and science was also not brought up by me. Beats me why they brought that to the dinner table. Ugh. I'm very disappointed in you. Your response to my quoted post was to: 1. Say, via rhetorical question, that "blanket statements are not reputable in anyway", implying that this is what I said. What I said was that the claim that "religion and science are incompatible" has serious, educated authorities backing it, and that, as it stands in the current discourse, it is a "reputable point." Again, you did not dispute any of these claims which are easily researchable, but instead made a "blanket statement" about "blanket statements." Furthermore, what you lead the discussion to with this method is bickering about what is and isn't a "blanket statement" worthy of instant disrepute. You did not give us any reasons to put the point I mentioned into this category, nor any reasons to believe that we ought dismiss all items in that category. You basically gave us two new unsupported things to bicker about, which is _exactly_ what I was complaining about in the first post I was responding to (you were calling things nonsense without any additional support). You took what I claimed was wrong with your original post, and committed the same sin two more times, not to mention contradicting yourself. 2. It doesn't matter who first brought up the subject, because the complaint is that you were dismissing it outright by calling it "nonsense,"--do you deny that this is a horrible move, or do you have something additional to say to defend it, besides changing the subject and starting two additional debates (see above)? Was "X is nonsense" a good reply in your case or not? I have argued that it was not, and your response was to basically do the same thing in a new form--two additional times. For my feelings on this, see my initial post (quoted above). Barring a miraculous explanation on your part, shame on you! | ||
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ggrrg
Bulgaria2716 Posts
On December 04 2009 03:44 Boonbag wrote: + Show Spoiler + On December 04 2009 02:35 ggrrg wrote: The idea of many people must not be "Islam is evil". It's more like "People that totally disrespect my culture and don't give a shit about the values of my country should not try to shove the symbols of greatness of their religion in everybody's face". This claim surely is not true for all Muslims, but there is a fair amount of Muslims, who actually fit into this kind of stereotype. And even worse: the ones that do fit in it try to spread their views to as many people as possible. And honestly the European Union has in common (besides everything else) a shared view on cultural values. Why would you even want to live in Europe if you oppose those values? I am not saying that foreigners should f*ck off, but they should at least TRY to understand European values and at least TRY to fit into society and not just stubbornly close off themselves from the outer world and complain about being discriminated against. "You beat your wife ? You go to jail." And who will ever complain to make you go to jail, if your wife that has been "imported" (as a good without ever having the right to say something against it) from some village in the near East twenty years ago and does not speak the local language at all, because she basically never gets out of the house, endures everything, because that's the way she is brought up? Maybe your childeren that you have passed on your mentality from early age on? Maybe the community that you live in that has the exactly same views as you do? "You force someone to do something against his will ? You go to jail." Yeah really? When nobody complains about it, because they think that they have to endure their situation or they are just to afraid to complain or they simply know that they will be completely on their own if they complain, then nobody will make you go to jail. Best example are victims of human traffic, who are abused as prostitutes for years, because they are far to afraid to ever try to escape and anyhow have no idea where they can seek help. "You publicy advocate violence or anything close ? You go to jail." You think so? You hold your "speeches" in front of a group of people, who do have the same views as you. Why the hell should they make you go to jail? However, I must admit that the voting in Switzerland did have a racist origin. It was initiated by a nationalist and racist party. However, I cannot imagine that all (not even a quarter) of the people who backed the vote are racists... You'd be really surprised. I'm living in Paris and my friend in Belgium and I can assure you that racism towards arab looking people is WAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYY older than any of the current debates about Islam. There has been alot of islamic terrorism in france and algeria (still is) before, but back then, never the medias would stereotype muslim migrants as potential terrorists like today. I'm not denying Islamic terrorism very much evolved since the 80's but somehow, it wasn't linked to people. It was Islamic terrorism. But what is very very sad, is that, every single low paid work nobody ever would want to do in France, is done by migrants and if these people weren't coming to our country, we wouldn't be able to construct any building for instance =[ As a arabian typed person in france, unless you hold very high degrees, you will be regarded as shit and will struggle to no end for : Renting an appartement Finding a job outside mc donalds / H&M Actually getting the minimal civic respect from police I lived in a family from pakistan about 3 months, also, as a teenager, I ended up in the shittiest ghetto high school you could ever picture, and most of my friends from high school and onwards were muslim. The way medias picture Islam is very very very targeted and very specific, it tries to make people bielive that Charia is applied within most of muslim migrant families (they shouldn't even be called migrants, since these families have been French for more than 50 years now..................) I witnessed sheep kill in bathrooms (yes that exists =[) I hated every single second of it. I hated the fact that many mothers of my friends couldn't even read or write and were almost like animals in cages, most of you will never be able to imagine in what kind of conditions poor migrant families were put to live by the very country they came to. Oh and btw, if you think Hardcore right winged men actually give a damn about women's condition, I'm sorry for you. The people that made this votation possible and the basic Islamic middle east macho prolly have much more in common than they would ever imagine..... Muslims in Europe do not exist. They aren't muslisms. They are citizens and no citizen should be discriminated because of his confession, his race or his gender. If they're so concerned about Islam's dangers, maybe they should start considering to invest money to give a proper home and a proper republican and critic education to people that need it the most. Btw these same people that don't want Minarets are the same that don't want : homosexuals free thinkers equality between genders right of free speech I'm pretty sure that these politicians are what is the closest to the overall atmosphere of hate that allowed Nazism to exterminate 6 millions persons. Actually, a terrorost threat is my smallest concern. It's more of my disapproval of many Muslims' refusal to accept Western values. I've never been to France to know how Arabs there are treated. But I do know how they are treated in Germany. As long as you do not live in some god-forgotten village you will encounter tolerant and understanding people in Germany. The racism Arab's and Muslims in general have to face in German cities is the same racism that Asians, Africans, Latin Americans and East Europeans have to face and is limited to a few old bittered retards that still wish that Germany would have won WWII. From what I've seen Arabs and Muslims are barely more discriminated against than any other minority in Germany and even have (almost) the same chances as every German to get a job. The way medias picture Islam is very very very targeted and very specific, it tries to make people bielive that Charia is applied within most of muslim migrant families (they shouldn't even be called migrants, since these families have been French for more than 50 years now..................) I witnessed sheep kill in bathrooms (yes that exists =[) I hated every single second of it. I hated the fact that many mothers of my friends couldn't even read or write and were almost like animals in cages, most of you will never be able to imagine in what kind of conditions poor migrant families were put to live by the very country they came to. Yes, they shouldn't be called migrants after living in a specific country for 50 years. But what do you call someone that does not know the local language, that does not interact with anybody outside his own foreign community and completely denies to accept the local culture and values? In Germany there even exist a term "third/forth generation immigrant". That's kids, whose grandparents or even grand-grandparents come from another country. These kids cannot speak German and do not want to interact with Germans (or immigrants from other countries for that matter). Muslims in Europe do not exist. They aren't muslisms. They are citizens and no citizen should be discriminated because of his confession, his race or his gender. This is the way in should be. But I ask: What do you call someone that lives in Europe but denies the principles and values of the society he lives in, someone that basically denies to be a part of society? If they're so concerned about Islam's dangers, maybe they should start considering to invest money to give a proper home and a proper republican and critic education to people that need it the most. At least in Germany they do try! But you cannot force someone to receive "republican and critic education" if this person does not want to. All my further comments are based on personal experience, thus they are irrelevant for any discussion, but are here to show you why you shall beware of stereotyping people Btw these same people that don't want Minarets are the same that don't want : "homosexuals" - One of my best friends is gay. And while I have no interest to know what he does in his bedroom, I don't mind what he does and our friendship is not disrupted by his sexual disposition "free thinkers" - This is a pretty wide description, but I do not see myself as anybody that is opposed to new ideas in any way. "equality between genders" - Yeah, I totally agree that my single mother should continue to receive less than any man at the place she works... "right of free speech" - Why the hell does the government even allow TL.net to exist since almost every thread here is obviously full of shit? | ||
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KlaCkoN
Sweden1661 Posts
On December 04 2009 14:19 ggrrg wrote: This is the way in should be. But I ask: What do you call someone that lives in Europe but denies the principles and values of the society he lives in, someone that basically denies to be a part of society? This post is fairly ironic to me since a lot, if not even most, people in for example Sweden would say the exact same thing about Bulgarians, or eastern europeans in general. "They are poorly educated, beat their wifes, refuse to assimilate or even get real jobs, they form gangs and shoot people on our streets". Is generally how it goes. I would guess you disagree fairly strongly with the above statements? Just think about that, and think about how valid perceptions and prejudices actually are =p | ||
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
On December 04 2009 14:19 ggrrg wrote: Actually, a terrorost threat is my smallest concern. It's more of my disapproval of many Muslims' refusal to accept Western values. I've never been to France to know how Arabs there are treated. But I do know how they are treated in Germany. As long as you do not live in some god-forgotten village you will encounter tolerant and understanding people in Germany. The racism Arab's and Muslims in general have to face in German cities is the same racism that Asians, Africans, Latin Americans and East Europeans have to face and is limited to a few old bittered retards that still wish that Germany would have won WWII. From what I've seen Arabs and Muslims are barely more discriminated against than any other minority in Germany and even have (almost) the same chances as every German to get a job. Yes, they shouldn't be called migrants after living in a specific country for 50 years. But what do you call someone that does not know the local language, that does not interact with anybody outside his own foreign community and completely denies to accept the local culture and values? In Germany there even exist a term "third/forth generation immigrant". That's kids, whose grandparents or even grand-grandparents come from another country. These kids cannot speak German and do not want to interact with Germans (or immigrants from other countries for that matter). This is the way in should be. But I ask: What do you call someone that lives in Europe but denies the principles and values of the society he lives in, someone that basically denies to be a part of society? At least in Germany they do try! But you cannot force someone to receive "republican and critic education" if this person does not want to. All my further comments are based on personal experience, thus they are irrelevant for any discussion, but are here to show you why you shall beware of stereotyping people "homosexuals" - One of my best friends is gay. And while I have no interest to know what he does in his bedroom, I don't mind what he does and our friendship is not disrupted by his sexual disposition "free thinkers" - This is a pretty wide description, but I do not see myself as anybody that is opposed to new ideas in any way. "equality between genders" - Yeah, I totally agree that my single mother should continue to receive less than any man at the place she works... "right of free speech" - Why the hell does the government even allow TL.net to exist since almost every thread here is obviously full of shit? You really don't get it. All the points you are debating never ever reach that kind of level of thought. Do you think voters in switzerland went through the same process than you ? Do you think they actually thought and discussed all that before casting their vote ? We are here talking about stupidity on a very large scale of the population. Moreover what Klackson wrote is right to the point. Most of western countries inhabitants (old ones especially) hold a very heavy racist grudge against any foreigner that isn't white with blue eyes. What you fail to picture is the social type of the persons that actually voted this ban. Would you be able to, I'm pretty sure you would'nt want to be acquainted through your vote with any of those =[ They don't want to ban Islam, they want to ban Middle east typed people from their country. It's too bad you can't understand french and can't read all the switzerland / french news and papers on the topic they would enlighten you. | ||
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WhuazGoodJaggah
Lesotho777 Posts
"The whole pakistani family is going to pakistan for vacation. There the children get married to some strangers. After the marriage (maybe 2 to 3 years) the kids come back. This is done to provide a residence authorization to the husband f.e." In such cases a clear violation of a law (no forced marriage) is not persecuted at all, so stop talking bullshit. Also stop telling that ppl in Switzerland dont debate a lot before going to vote. I have first hand information as I'm actually swiss and able to vote and I discussed a shitload of times about this exact issue with yes and no voters. Yes voters are not generally racists, they get along with many races mostly they hate "jugos" which aren't even moslems that often. I really played with the thought to vote yes on that one (instead of showing protest against such ridiculous votes with not voting at all) and im not racist for sure as I was always hanging with all kind of ethnicies and even helping them to stay in switzerland when the government wanted to send them back to albania. so fuck your stereotype idiotic view. | ||
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[DUF]MethodMan
Germany1716 Posts
On December 05 2009 01:10 Boonbag wrote: Most of western countries inhabitants (old ones especially) hold a very heavy racist grudge against any foreigner that isn't white with blue eyes. Dude, stop that shit, seriously. | ||
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
lol... | ||
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