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Switzerland bans Minarets - Page 3

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ghostWriter
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States3302 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-29 23:26:47
November 29 2009 23:25 GMT
#41
On November 30 2009 08:23 KissBlade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2009 08:22 ghostWriter wrote:
On November 30 2009 08:17 JWD wrote:
On November 30 2009 08:14 ghostWriter wrote:
I can see why they would be wary of Islamic influences. Where do you think the Paris riots came from? Ungrateful youth that should expend their time and energy on their education or a career, wasting their lives being mad at the establishment, which allows them to have protection, a home, etc.

There's a big, hard to justify leap from being wary of influences and taking affirmative steps to eliminate them.


If you immigrate to a different country, it's your job to assimilate into the existing culture. The Koran promotes violence in order for Islam to spread. Why wouldn't they eliminate threatening influences?



Where in the Koran did it actually promote violence?


Are you kidding me?
google it.

+ Show Spoiler +

Qur'an (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah." There is a good case to be made that the textual context of this particular passage is defensive war, even if the historical context was not. However, there are also two worrisome pieces to these verse. The first is that the killing of others is authorized in the event of "persecution" (a qualification that is ambiguous at best). The second is that fighting may persist until "religion is for Allah." The example set by Muhammad is not reassuring.



Qur'an (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."



Qur'an (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding caravans with this verse.



Qur'an (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."



Qur'an (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').



Qur'an (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle, as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. Here is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.



Qur'an (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"



Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."



Qur'an (45) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" This passage not only criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, but it also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Qur'an, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad).



Qur'an (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." Pursuing an injured and retreating enemy is not an act of self-defense.



Qur'an (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"



Qur'an (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.



Qur'an (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."



Qur'an (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah" From the historical context we know that the "persecution" spoken of here was simply the refusal by the Meccans to allow Muhammad to enter their city and perform the Haj. Other Muslims were able to travel there, just not as an armed group, since Muhammad declared war on Mecca prior to his eviction. The Meccans were also acting in defense of their religion, since it was Muhammad's intention to destroy their idols and establish Islam by force (which he later did). Hence the critical part of this verse is to fight until "religion is only for Allah."



Qur'an (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."



Qur'an (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."



Qur'an (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam. Prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religions Five Pillars.



Qur'an (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."



Qur'an (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant." The "striving" spoken of here is Jihad.



Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." "People of the Book" refers to Christians and Jews. This was one of the final "revelations" from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in just the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths.


Qur'an (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"



Qur'an (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place." This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.



Qur'an (9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew." See also the verse that follows (9:42) - "If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them" This contradicts the myth that Muslims are to fight only in self-defense, since the wording implies that battle will be waged a long distance from home (in another country and on Christian soil, in this case, according to the historians).


Qur'an (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination." Dehumanizing those who reject Islam, by reminding Muslims that they are merely firewood for Hell, makes it easier to justify slaughter. It also explains why today's devout Muslims have little regard for those outside the faith.



Qur'an (9:88) - "But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper."


Qur'an (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme."



Qur'an (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."



Qur'an (21:44) - "We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?"



Qur'an (25:52) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness, with the (Qur'an)." "Strive against" is Jihad - obviously not in the personal context. It's also significant to point out that this is a Meccan verse.



Qur'an (47:4) - "So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,"



Qur'an (47:35) - "Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost (Shakir: "have the upper hand") for Allah is with you,"



Qur'an (48:17) - "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom." Contemporary apologists sometimes claim that Jihad means 'spiritual struggle.' Is so, then why are the blind, lame and sick exempted?



Qur'an (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves" Islam is not about treating everyone equally. There are two very distinct standards that are applied based on religious status.



Qur'an (61:4) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way" Religion of Peace, indeed!



Qur'an (61:10-12) - "O ye who believe! Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty?- That ye believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that ye strive (your utmost) in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons: That will be best for you, if ye but knew! He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity." This verse was given in battle. It uses the Arabic word, Jihad.



Qur'an (66) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end." The root word of "Jihad" is used again here. The context is clearly holy war, and the scope of violence is broadened to include "hypocrites" - those who call themselves Muslims but do not act as such.


From the Hadith:



Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."



Bukhari (52:256) - The Prophet... was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." In this command, Muhammad establishes that it is permissible to kill non-combatants in the process of killing a perceived enemy. This provides justification for the many Islamic terror bombings.



Bukhari (52:220) - Allah's Apostle said... 'I have been made victorious with terror'



Abu Dawud (14:2526) - The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, "There is no god but Allah" and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal (Antichrist)



Abu Dawud (14:2527) - The Prophet said: Striving in the path of Allah (jihad) is incumbent on you along with every ruler, whether he is pious or impious



Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah



Bukhari (8:387) - Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah



Muslim (1:149) - "Abu Dharr reported: I said: Messenger of Allah, which of the deeds is the best? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: Belief in Allah and Jihad in His cause..."



Muslim (20:4645) - "...He (the Messenger of Allah) did that and said: There is another act which elevates the position of a man in Paradise to a grade one hundred (higher), and the elevation between one grade and the other is equal to the height of the heaven from the earth. He (Abu Sa'id) said: What is that act? He replied: Jihad in the way of Allah! Jihad in the way of Allah!"



Muslim (20:4696) - "the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: 'One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihid died the death of a hypocrite.'"



Muslim (19:4321-4323) - Three separate hadith in which Muhammad shrugs over the news that innocent children were killed in a raid by his men against unbelievers. His response: "They are of them (meaning the enemy)."



Tabari 77 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, "Kill any Jew who falls under your power." Ashraf was a poet, killed by Muhammad's men because he insulted Islam. Here, Muhammad widens the scope of his orders to kill. An innocent Jewish businessman was then slain by his Muslim partner, merely for being non-Muslim.



Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us" The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.



Ibn Ishaq: 327 - “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”



Ibn Ishaq: 990 - Lest anyone think that cutting off someone's head while screaming 'Allah Akbar!' is a modern custom, here is an account of that very practice under Muhammad, who seems to approve.



Ibn Ishaq: 992 - "Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah." Muhammad's instructions to his men prior to a military raid.
Sullifam
Saturnize
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States2473 Posts
November 29 2009 23:25 GMT
#42
On November 30 2009 08:24 ShaperofDreams wrote:
It's ok I don't really like Islam anyways.

I remember in high school when a Persian guy (who is a nice guy) practically bragged about the practice of hanging gay people in his country. Also my best friend is "engaged" to a 13 yr old he has never met (he doesn't plan to do through with it). Oh and also Muslim people raped my country for 500 years...surprisingly I don't have that much of a problem with that. IMO the western world is too civilized for Islam to work without changing.


lol....
"Time to put the mustard on the hotdog. -_-"
Boblion
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
France8043 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-29 23:32:29
November 29 2009 23:25 GMT
#43
On November 30 2009 08:02 FragKrag wrote:
Saturnize I don't think there is a single country in Europe where the majority has no religious beliefs

maybe, just maybe the Netherlands, but I think even that is a long shot.

o,O

You know that being raised has a catholic doesn't mean that you are a believer ?
The last time i looked at the stats it was like ~ 45% non believer in France and it is increasing.
Soon 50% !
fuck all those elitists brb watching streams of elite players.
SultanVinegar
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States372 Posts
November 29 2009 23:26 GMT
#44
On November 30 2009 08:23 KissBlade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2009 08:22 ghostWriter wrote:
On November 30 2009 08:17 JWD wrote:
On November 30 2009 08:14 ghostWriter wrote:
I can see why they would be wary of Islamic influences. Where do you think the Paris riots came from? Ungrateful youth that should expend their time and energy on their education or a career, wasting their lives being mad at the establishment, which allows them to have protection, a home, etc.

There's a big, hard to justify leap from being wary of influences and taking affirmative steps to eliminate them.


If you immigrate to a different country, it's your job to assimilate into the existing culture. The Koran promotes violence in order for Islam to spread. Why wouldn't they eliminate threatening influences?



Where in the Koran did it actually promote violence?

Excerpt K 2:190-191
Set 2, Count 3+4 [2.190] ...fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you...[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
I'm a Flash man.
cgrinker
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3824 Posts
November 29 2009 23:26 GMT
#45
I thought that this said "Switzerland bans minerals."
cgrinker
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3824 Posts
November 29 2009 23:27 GMT
#46
Also lol at how your angry scriptures got parsed into smiles
inc
Profile Joined June 2003
Sweden889 Posts
November 29 2009 23:27 GMT
#47
I love this. thank you Switzerland!
i savour every bit of the numerous gifts life is offering me, having no worries, goals or regrets, constantly trading time for pleasure
sith
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
United States2474 Posts
November 29 2009 23:28 GMT
#48
I mean some people in here are against Islam yes...but they do have valid points. While Christianity I agree has some silly rules, it's not as bad as Islam. If you're homosexual, to christianity that means you're not going to be saved by christ, but you're not a lost cause. To Islam, the penalty for homosexuality is death. You see the issue here? A culture that allows degradation of women and insane penalties like that seems ridiculous to me.
Slow Motion
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States6960 Posts
November 29 2009 23:28 GMT
#49
OK everyone you've all convinced me. Let's ban all ideas that we don't like or we think is having or can have negative consequences in the world. I think modern science, all religion, and political expression should go first. We can add other categories as we go along.
Boblion
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
France8043 Posts
November 29 2009 23:28 GMT
#50
On November 30 2009 08:14 ghostWriter wrote:
I can see why they would be wary of Islamic influences. Where do you think the Paris riots came from?

You cannot be more wrong. The riots had nothing to do with Islam.
fuck all those elitists brb watching streams of elite players.
SultanVinegar
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States372 Posts
November 29 2009 23:29 GMT
#51
This is religious persecution. I thought Switzerland was a much more socially advanced country.
I'm a Flash man.
Saturnize
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States2473 Posts
November 29 2009 23:30 GMT
#52
On November 30 2009 08:28 Slow Motion wrote:
OK everyone you've all convinced me. Let's ban all ideas that we don't like or we think is having or can have negative consequences in the world. I think modern science, all religion, and political expression should go first. We can add other categories as we go along.


Some of those things require "logic" Islam makes no sense whatsoever -_-
"Time to put the mustard on the hotdog. -_-"
ghostWriter
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States3302 Posts
November 29 2009 23:30 GMT
#53
On November 30 2009 08:28 Boblion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2009 08:14 ghostWriter wrote:
I can see why they would be wary of Islamic influences. Where do you think the Paris riots came from?

You cannot be more wrong. The riots had nothing to do with Islam.


Yeah I guess the rioters being young Muslim males from Africa and the Middle East means that the riots means that they had nothing to do with Islam.
Sullifam
Kennigit *
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada19447 Posts
November 29 2009 23:30 GMT
#54
How is a nation's secularism relevant to banning freedom of religious expression? Of all the countries that would try to pull something like this....SWITZERLAND??? SERIOUSLY LOL?
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
November 29 2009 23:31 GMT
#55
Ban all religious influence or none at all.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Slow Motion
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States6960 Posts
November 29 2009 23:31 GMT
#56
On November 30 2009 08:30 Saturnize wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2009 08:28 Slow Motion wrote:
OK everyone you've all convinced me. Let's ban all ideas that we don't like or we think is having or can have negative consequences in the world. I think modern science, all religion, and political expression should go first. We can add other categories as we go along.


Some of those things require "logic" Islam makes no sense whatsoever -_-

Alright, let's make a list of all the ideas that we think are "logical", and ban the others!
JWD
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States12607 Posts
November 29 2009 23:31 GMT
#57
On November 30 2009 08:22 ghostWriter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2009 08:17 JWD wrote:
On November 30 2009 08:14 ghostWriter wrote:
I can see why they would be wary of Islamic influences. Where do you think the Paris riots came from? Ungrateful youth that should expend their time and energy on their education or a career, wasting their lives being mad at the establishment, which allows them to have protection, a home, etc.

There's a big, hard to justify leap from being wary of influences and taking affirmative steps to eliminate them.


If you immigrate to a different country, it's your job to assimilate into the existing culture. The Koran promotes violence in order for Islam to spread. Why wouldn't they eliminate threatening influences?

Lawmakers should balance protecting national security/interests with the costs of restricting freedom of speech and expression. Of course eliminating threatening influences might make a country safer, but you're forgetting to consider the value of political/religious/whatever expression. Here we are critiquing the Swiss government and its laws—that could be seen as a threatening influence, why doesn't Switzerland make visiting TL illegal too?
✌
jalstar
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States8198 Posts
November 29 2009 23:31 GMT
#58
On November 30 2009 08:31 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Ban all religious influence or none at all.


"all religions are the same" is a dangerous false equivalency
.risingdragoon
Profile Joined January 2008
United States3021 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-29 23:32:26
November 29 2009 23:31 GMT
#59
On November 30 2009 08:14 ghostWriter wrote:
Where do you think the Paris riots came from? Ungrateful youth that should expend their time and energy on their education or a career, wasting their lives being mad at the establishment, which allows them to have protection, a home, etc.

If you immigrate to a different country, it's your job to assimilate into the existing culture.

Complete garbage.
......::::........::::........::::........::::........::::.......::::.......::::... Up☆MaGiC ...::::.......::::.......::::........::::........::::........::::........
grobo
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Japan6199 Posts
November 29 2009 23:32 GMT
#60
On November 30 2009 08:24 Yizuo wrote:
This vote was proposed by the SVP, which are often described as right-winged populists. The result was really surprising, the german media said yesterday (before the vote) most people expected a different outcome...

IMO this ban is pure bullshit, the people are blinded by fear of different cultures and religions. "The free western world" should always uphold their values of open-mindedness and tolerance, the decision made by the swiss people is a step in the wrong direction.


It's hard to be tolerant to people who believe in ABSOLUTE ZERO tolerance themselves, some muslim group a few years ago tried to ban the swedish anthem from our graduation ceremonies (which has been a tradition in sweden a long time) because they though it was racist to the non-swedes living in sweden.
We make signature, then defense it.
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