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The Loudness War - Page 5

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7mk
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Germany10157 Posts
September 03 2009 11:17 GMT
#81
Oh btw. something that I find much worse than this loudness issue is loudness in concerts.
Most concerts are waaaay to fucking loud, sometimes I can barely hear anything over all the fucking noise... so sad...
beep boop
jtype
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
England2167 Posts
September 03 2009 11:23 GMT
#82
On September 03 2009 20:17 7mk wrote:
Oh btw. something that I find much worse than this loudness issue is loudness in concerts.
Most concerts are waaaay to fucking loud, sometimes I can barely hear anything over all the fucking noise... so sad...


Really? I'm finding it to be the exact opposite recently. All these new regulations have meant that venues over here just aren't allowed to pump up their volume like they used to.

On topic - Yeah, the loudness war is a sad one, and one for which digital technology is partly to blame.
Foucault
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Sweden2826 Posts
September 03 2009 11:25 GMT
#83
On September 03 2009 20:17 7mk wrote:
Oh btw. something that I find much worse than this loudness issue is loudness in concerts.
Most concerts are waaaay to fucking loud, sometimes I can barely hear anything over all the fucking noise... so sad...


Yeah I thought about too and I totally agree. Alot of times when I went to concerts with metal bands I can hardly hear shit, except for bass. It's fucking ridiculous.

The best concert I've probably been to was Blind Guardian. They weren't that loud and the music sounded amazing, you could hear every noted played.
I know that deep inside of you there's a humongous set of testicles just waiting to pop out. Let 'em pop bro. //////////////////// AKA JensOfSweden // Lee Yoon Yeol forever.
7mk
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Germany10157 Posts
September 03 2009 11:28 GMT
#84
On September 03 2009 20:23 jtype wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 03 2009 20:17 7mk wrote:
Oh btw. something that I find much worse than this loudness issue is loudness in concerts.
Most concerts are waaaay to fucking loud, sometimes I can barely hear anything over all the fucking noise... so sad...


Really? I'm finding it to be the exact opposite recently. All these new regulations have meant that venues over here just aren't allowed to pump up their volume like they used to.

On topic - Yeah, the loudness war is a sad one, and one for which digital technology is partly to blame.


What new regulations? Unfortunately I'm not very in touch with news, were theye EU-wide or just in the UK?

My last concert was machinehead/slipknot (yeah, a pop concert) a few months ago, when machinehead played it was still ok, already quite loud but then slipknot (unfortunately main act) played and they turned it up soooooo much more. It was ridiculous. I don't get how anybody who didnt have something to cover their ears didn't get permanent tinitus
beep boop
spinesheath
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany8679 Posts
September 03 2009 11:31 GMT
#85
On September 03 2009 02:58 the_enborfser wrote:
The worst part of being a musician is knowing that anything you record is going to end up way over-compressed and in mp3 form... i hate mp3s so much

That's not really the format's fault. You can create mp3s with very high bitrates and extremely good quality. It depends a lot on the people who compress the music.
If you have a good reason to disagree with the above, please tell me. Thank you.
Lancaster
Profile Joined August 2009
Canada12 Posts
September 03 2009 11:49 GMT
#86
Really interesting stuff.
We do what we must because we can.
Aegraen
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States1225 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-03 17:11:27
September 03 2009 17:06 GMT
#87
On September 03 2009 20:07 7mk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 03 2009 10:08 Aegraen wrote:
On September 03 2009 09:59 Wangsta wrote:
On September 03 2009 09:50 Aegraen wrote:
On September 03 2009 09:47 Wangsta wrote:
On September 03 2009 09:31 Aegraen wrote:
On September 03 2009 09:17 Wangsta wrote:
On September 03 2009 09:09 skindzer wrote:
On September 03 2009 08:54 Wangsta wrote:
On September 03 2009 08:15 Aegraen wrote:
[quote]

Eh. I guess I never noticed since I listen to genre's that either have very crisp production, or very coarse unadultered rapage (Black Metal). If you don't enjoy the production value then simply don't buy the album or listen to the music. No one is forcing you to pirate or purchase the music, simply look for music that fits your taste (Trust me, there is music out there for everyone).

Besides, different production values at least in the music I listen to create a variance in the music that is appreciated...


Thats not true, a lot of good music also gets affected by the loudness war. To give you one example, one of my favorite bands of all time, the red hot chili peppers, had one of their best albums (californication) COMPLETELY raped by a studio engineer. its one of my favorite albums of all time, but its also one of the most poorly mastered albums ever, making it almost unlistenable on any remotely decent audio system (unless loud static, clipping, and sibilance don't bother you). there is literally no good recording of that album available on the market

I dont care if mainstream rap/pop/etc. goes to hell and becomes unlistenable, but I DO care when good bands get affected and are forced to release poorly recorded albums

A lot of people buy CDs because they offer better sound quality than mp3s. If CDs start to sound like compressed pieces of crap, then why bother spending money when mp3s sound the same (or possibly even better, since the high frequency compression can sometimes mask poor mastering)


Can you provide a way to compare?


compare the sound quality of vocals/drums/guitars to any radiohead or RATM album,

or, to a lesser extent, compare to an earlier redhotchilipeppers album (i.e. blood sugar sex magik)


This is ridiculous. It's like asking someone to compare Burzum to Keep of Kalessin.

Not every band has the same production value, nor should they. It's what differentiates them even within the same genre. Frankly, I don't notice the "loudness" factor, but I guess that's because of my tastes. Red Hot Chili Peppers is pop music, by the way.


no its not ridiculous.

this has nothing to do with budget. mastering too loud is like an artist spending money to REDUCE sound quality. except in reality, the artist often opposes the idea, but the record labels do it anyway because the whole loudness crap

and i have no idea how you can possibly classify red hot chili peppers as "pop." theyre about as far away from pop as possible


I classify just about everything that is mainstream as pop. Easily digestable, mass produced...mainstream, yeah pretty much pop.

And yes, it is ridiculous. It's not about budget, its about the style of production. I'm glad you know exactly how the members of Red Hot Chili Peppers feel. To be honest I feel your beef is with the other instruments drowning out, say the Bass guitar for example. This isn't to do with "loudness" rather than a lack of focus on the backdrop of the music. This has been the case forever. Some bands forego this and focus on say, the lead guitar, some focus on the drums, etc. That's why I said each band has different production values, find the band that best suits you.

It's like complaining about Children of Bodom synths overshadowing the bass guitar...Ridiculous, because the band isn't about the bass guitar.


your definition of pop is ridiculous. using your definition, are you saying that pink floyd, metallica, tupac, etc. should all be considered pop? theyre just as "mainstream" as RHCP

and no, its not about an instrument drowning out. its about there being extremely audible STATIC in anthony's voice (I mean literally static) and ridiculous sibilance in drum snares that makes their "cd quality" album sound like something off the radio.

there is NOTHING wrong with making an album louder. there IS something wrong when you try to push volume PAST the maximum possible volume, and achieve that goal by using processes that degrade sound quality


How do you know that isn't what they intended? Not every band, every genre, strives to achieve crisp production values. You seem to very much enjoy that album as referenced before, and even saying that every album has this, yet, it's one of your favorites. What does that tell you?

If you don't enjoy the music, simply don't buy it. Not every band uses distortion in their production. Find one that has production values that fit your tastes..Frankly, I don't see the problem here, maybe that is because my tastes are in a realm where we understand the difference between production value and its effect on the music, creating distinctly different tones and moods.

Yes, I consider them pop, just like Mars Volta and all the rest. There are so many bands that are like RHCP, mass produced. Pop isn't only confined to the Britney Spears of the world. Also, I'm going to PM you a song and I want you to tell me if "loudness war" plays a factor. Just to give you an idea how the production value dictates the direction the band wants to go in. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that it's a negative on the whole and that it somehow is going to end up in a society of deaf mutes, or hearing aid dependants because there is still something called the volume knob.



Loooooooooool, The Mars Volta is mainstream pop lololol

I actually kind of agreed with you, very many RHCP are pop rock in my opinion, some were more funk, some alternative, but some are pretty popish - but I still like them cause they are just much much better than all these silly pop bands who use the same melodies over and over again.

But Mars Volta? Lolol, they made some of the un-mainstream-friendly albums/songs ever.
So a 10 minute song that starts with 3 minutes of weird atmospheric noises on the radio is mainstream nowadays?? Ah, I see... if that's mainstream than Children Of Bodom sure as hell is the pinnacle of fucking sell out

+ Show Spoiler +
they aren't though




also what is up with this:

Show nested quote +
On September 03 2009 09:31 Aegraen wrote:
On September 03 2009 09:17 Wangsta wrote:
On September 03 2009 09:09 skindzer wrote:
On September 03 2009 08:54 Wangsta wrote:
On September 03 2009 08:15 Aegraen wrote:
On September 03 2009 07:39 Dewis wrote:
Seems like many don't actually get what this really is about. It's not about the volume the end-listener uses, but the dynamics in the music. When records are mastered as loud as possible, the tracks are run through a lot of compressors and limiters which eventually fuck up all the dynamics in music.

It's really funny if you listen to some band that has played for like 30 years. Use constant volume. Start listening to a song from the first album, then move on to the next album. At some point you'll see a drastic rise in the volume level.


Eh. I guess I never noticed since I listen to genre's that either have very crisp production, or very coarse unadultered rapage (Black Metal). If you don't enjoy the production value then simply don't buy the album or listen to the music. No one is forcing you to pirate or purchase the music, simply look for music that fits your taste (Trust me, there is music out there for everyone).

Besides, different production values at least in the music I listen to create a variance in the music that is appreciated...


Thats not true, a lot of good music also gets affected by the loudness war. To give you one example, one of my favorite bands of all time, the red hot chili peppers, had one of their best albums (californication) COMPLETELY raped by a studio engineer. its one of my favorite albums of all time, but its also one of the most poorly mastered albums ever, making it almost unlistenable on any remotely decent audio system (unless loud static, clipping, and sibilance don't bother you). there is literally no good recording of that album available on the market

I dont care if mainstream rap/pop/etc. goes to hell and becomes unlistenable, but I DO care when good bands get affected and are forced to release poorly recorded albums

A lot of people buy CDs because they offer better sound quality than mp3s. If CDs start to sound like compressed pieces of crap, then why bother spending money when mp3s sound the same (or possibly even better, since the high frequency compression can sometimes mask poor mastering)


Can you provide a way to compare?


compare the sound quality of vocals/drums/guitars to any radiohead or RATM album,

or, to a lesser extent, compare to an earlier redhotchilipeppers album (i.e. blood sugar sex magik)


This is ridiculous. It's like asking someone to compare Burzum to Keep of Kalessin.

Not every band has the same production value, nor should they. It's what differentiates them even within the same genre.

Yeah it's totally ridiculous, its like comparing apples and bananas, its like comparing...

Oh wait, he asked you to compare RHCP to.... ... .. RHCP
can't be that ridiculous then huh?



It's no different than say Early Dimmu compared to later Dimmu. Bands change their production throughout their life.

+ Show Spoiler +

+ Show Spoiler +


Lower recording volume doesn't necessarily mean better clarity. Anyways, I'll watch the video then comment. I'm just challenging the notion that "every" band, or many bands are raising their volume levels purposefully creating worst musicianship for the sole purpose of "selling more records". Frankly, I'm waiting for the research to back this assertion up. Hell, listen to power metal they have the best production of any genre and the music is pretty loud. Case in point:

+ Show Spoiler +


You telling me this has poor sound quality because it was produced at a higher dB?

"It is easy to be conspicuously 'compassionate' if others are being forced to pay the cost." -- Murray N. Rothbard -- Rand Paul 2010 -- Ron Paul 2012
skindzer
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
Chile5114 Posts
September 04 2009 01:14 GMT
#88

Ok, so i listened to RHCP Californication Regular Album on 128 KBPS. Then i listened to the Unmastered (supposedly fuckinfantasticaly better version) of RHCP Californication on 192 KBPS and my conclusions are:

They sound the SAME.

I didnt hear no noticeable difference except for the (annoying) fact that the normal album is way louder. Besides that i didnt perceive any differences in ranges or depth or anything.

Still just a preliminar test. Gonna try it later with headphones (good).
Its not only the rain that brings the thunder
Wangsta
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
United States776 Posts
September 04 2009 01:28 GMT
#89
if you are going to test, make sure you play them at the same volume (lower the volume for the louder one or raise the volume for the quieter one)
phosphorylation
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2935 Posts
September 04 2009 01:55 GMT
#90
It is also my opinion that 99 percent of bands are pretty damn clueless about what they are doing..both musically and artistically. With neither artistic integrity and credo, it is not surprising that they allow (or simply are ignorant that) such distorted, rubbish-sounding records get published.
Buy prints of my photographs at Redbubble -> http://www.redbubble.com/people/shoenberg3
Lumi
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States1616 Posts
September 08 2009 17:29 GMT
#91
Most gamers don't really care though as they often have some horrible headset (yeah, the sound quality on high-end headsets sucks) and cheap phones and often poorly ripped & over compressed music.

It's definitely awful but it's such old news by now, and most of the music I listen to isn't any mainstream poppy stuff that's getting mutilated by this - but when I pop on the few artists / albums that are, I cringe inside, it's noticable and really off-putting

If any of you are head-fiers, I'm Luminette over at www.head-fi.org :'o
twitter.com/lumigaming - DongRaeGu is the One True Dong - /r/onetruedong
Mora
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
Canada5235 Posts
September 09 2009 02:55 GMT
#92
On September 04 2009 10:55 phosphorylation wrote:
It is also my opinion that 99 percent of bands are pretty damn clueless about what they are doing..both musically and artistically. With neither artistic integrity and credo, it is not surprising that they allow (or simply are ignorant that) such distorted, rubbish-sounding records get published.


this has nothing to do with a band's musical or artistic talent.
Happiness only real when shared.
phosphorylation
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2935 Posts
September 09 2009 04:03 GMT
#93
i know
try reading my post again
Buy prints of my photographs at Redbubble -> http://www.redbubble.com/people/shoenberg3
rredtooth
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
5464 Posts
September 09 2009 04:12 GMT
#94
some people are screaming 'old news' but i think this is one of the most interesting wikipedia articles (or articles about any topic in general) that i have read in a while...
[formerly sponsored by the artist formerly known as Gene]
Mora
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
Canada5235 Posts
September 09 2009 17:06 GMT
#95
On September 09 2009 13:03 phosphorylation wrote:
i know
try reading my post again


round 2....

On September 04 2009 10:55 phosphorylation wrote:
It is also my opinion that 99 percent of bands are pretty damn clueless about what they are doing..both musically and artistically. With neither artistic integrity and credo...


has nothing to do with record publication.

ie: you said "since, A, thus B", to which i responded "A does not cause B"; which then "you know".

HOORJ
Happiness only real when shared.
cyronc
Profile Joined March 2008
218 Posts
September 10 2009 12:19 GMT
#96
for ppl who have trouble visualising what all this 'dynamic range' and 'dynamic range compression' stuff means (its not like data compression by information reduction, its something different, so dont blame your MP3/OGG/whatever codecs but rather the digital mastering involved in production)

/begin textwall

looks like that

|a--------------------b|
a=minimum possible loudness
b=maximum possible loudness

now lets say there is a loudest(L) and most quiet(Q) sound in the recording, this will look something like that

|a--Q-----------L----b|

so if you now play this and turn up down the volume this shape WILL STAY THE SAME, when you put down the volume your most quiet(Q) sound will be lowered by the same percentage as your loudest(L) sound, thus KEEPING THE RELATIONS INTACT

example given

you turn your volume up to 50 dB (b=50 dB now)
|a--Q-----------L----b|
the relative distance of your most quiet(Q) and loudest(L) sound to the maximum stays the same,
even if you turn down volume to 30 dB all the volume is turned down by a PERCENTAGE equally,
so the shape stays
|a--Q-----------L----b| with the only difference that b=30 dB now.


SO WHATS THAT DYNAMIC RANGE COMPRESSION/LOUDNESS WAR THINGY?

|a--Q-----------L----b| original recording

|a--------------Q---Lb| example for loudness war

not only were the loudness levels of both Q and L heightenend, BUT the DYNAMIC RANGE, that is the whole range from the most quiet(Q) to the loudest(L) sound of the recording, was REDUCED (through use of a dynamic range compressor)

and that means the post-mastered dynamic-range-compressed track DOESNT SOUND like the ORIGINAL, NEITHER CAN THE DYNAMIC RANGE COMPRESSION BE UNDONE BY SIMPLE ADJUSTING OF VOLUME.

that means: you have a new shape that has less possible information in it (due to its sounds not being able to have the original range of loudness differences) and the variety of loudness a musician can use as stylistic tool to create certain moods/effects/whatever is hampered.

conclusion: an artist can and should, of course, use dynamic range compression to his liking, BUT IT SUCKS WHEN SOMEBODY ELSE FORCES DYNAMIC RANGE COMPRESSION ON A RELEASE IF ITS NOT THE ARTISTS INTENTION AND THEREBY DESTROYS HIS WORK OF ART(thats what professional music industry does, to assure ppl always hear the music initially at maximum loudness to produce alertness in the costumer-to-be)

/end textwall, hope the extensive use of capslock doesnt offend anyone

anyways gl hf =)
iH82G8!
stanley_
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States816 Posts
September 10 2009 12:31 GMT
#97
They did this shit to TV as well. When i was young they never had that shit on TV, or it wasn't noticeable. But now the commercials are like sound-blasting loud and the show itself goes to a whisper. So I would have to mute the tv or turn down the volume every single time a commercial goes off.

I didn't notice this in music a lot, cause i don't listen to full albums.
hoorah
tirentu
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Canada1257 Posts
September 10 2009 12:51 GMT
#98
On September 04 2009 02:06 Aegraen wrote:
Hell, listen to power metal they have the best production of any genre and the music is pretty loud. Case in point:

+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCYlOS9ZNW0


You telling me this has poor sound quality because it was produced at a higher dB?



No, but I'd tell you it has poor sound quality because Celesty is a terrible power metal band .

<troll>Listen to DragonForce, they're so technically proficient!</troll>



There is definitely power metal with great production values (some Gamma Ray albums come to mind), but there's no doubt that they suffer from volume issues as well.
madnessman
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States1581 Posts
September 10 2009 13:14 GMT
#99
wasn't there a blog about this like a week ago? i remember some guy saying that he was going to stop compressing/boosting his music's volume because of sound quality.
Lumi
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States1616 Posts
September 10 2009 13:14 GMT
#100
/nods to the mention of the loudness at concerts also being a big issue. I stopped going to them because of this - last act I saw was an infected mushroom show back in august of 2007.
twitter.com/lumigaming - DongRaeGu is the One True Dong - /r/onetruedong
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2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
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