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[Game] Osu! - Page 327

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Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20319 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-10 22:17:51
August 10 2015 22:15 GMT
#6521
On August 11 2015 05:31 monomo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 11 2015 05:17 Yorbon wrote:
As long as you cannot be reasonably sure you can repeat a score, that score does not represent your skill level.


I have huge issues with this statement actually. Very few players would have any kind of representation of their skill level on their profile if that were true.


I have some freak scores up there. Mostly it's just a lucky run on acc - hard to repeat, but the FC itself not that difficult
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
monomo
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany150 Posts
August 10 2015 22:46 GMT
#6522
On August 11 2015 06:30 Yorbon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 11 2015 05:31 monomo wrote:
On August 11 2015 05:17 Yorbon wrote:
As long as you cannot be reasonably sure you can repeat a score, that score does not represent your skill level.


I have huge issues with this statement actually. Very few players would have any kind of representation of their skill level on their profile if that were true.
This is not entirely correct. I do agree that the individual scores on someone's profile do not represent the skill level of that person, assuming what i said. However, the whole of someone's scores could say something about his skill level, because those scores collectively are unobtainable for someone with a (significantly) lower skill level within a reasonable amount of time. One can estimate a minimum skill level that way. This still gives a very weak estimate, however, as it still is dependent on time spent achieving those scores as well as skill. Someone who has spent 2 years at the same skill level, will be expected to have higher pp than someone at that skill level who's recently improved a lot. You might also say that increased farming activity (per amount of time) drives amount of pp upwards. So regardless of whether a score represents your skill level, your skill level is not represented well by your profile at all. (Please note that I said 'not well at all' and not 'not at all' just in case). I would argue that the higher the rank achieved, the more accurate the amount of pp is, because the attainability of those scores through sheer repetition decrease more rapidly (than at the lower levels) the higher the amount of pp.

Worth noting is also that this 'upward bias' is not necessarily a consequence of the current pp system or something. It is a bias coming from the fact that osu takes your maximum score, which correlates with highest pp score (note: correlate; no 1 on 1 relation). These kind of biases cannot be prevented by any kind of (reasonable) system, I think. So while I still accept the current system, it has it's flaws. One might see the scores on someone's profile as a first approximation of someone's skill.

Going back to when I saw your profile online just now. I saw you were rank 500, so assumed a (probable) minimum level. After that I just looked at scores you obtained and saw you are probably better than me (you at least were at that moment). Not based on rank, profile scores, or scores obtained after repeating, but based on scores on maps you had no way of knowing were coming.

I hope this is structured enough to follow. And sorry for all things in brackets; i hate written media.

tldr: Profile does not represent skill anyway, except at the highest level.




Sorry for being blunt, but the "skill" you're picturing there, that your referring to, does not exist. At least in the way you make it out to be (unified overall skill) - Me being better in maps that I have no idea were coming could be something ENTIRELY different than the skill needed to fc this or that DT map. I disagree with anyone stating the existence of a strong correlation between random map performance and sort-of-grindy-kindof map performance needed to gain PP.

There are at least 5 areas in osu! which require completely different skills. All the PP system does is take your peak performance and make it into a number, completely disregarding long term consistency, a possible glaring weakness in either aim, accuracy or speed, and the finer points of good sightreading.

So all PP can possibly do is show your peak "skill" over some time and it does that well: A few outliers in terms of single performances show a high peak performance

tl;dr there is no pure skill in PP anyway, because pure skill doesn't exist, and i think PP does a very good job showing your peak performance capabilities.

Rizare
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada592 Posts
August 11 2015 00:13 GMT
#6523
I have tried out just now few maps now. I can't survive 4.5 stars and I'm not in the best form for 4 stars. Looks like I'll need more to be back to where I used to be.
Yorbon
Profile Joined December 2011
Netherlands4272 Posts
August 11 2015 00:44 GMT
#6524
On August 11 2015 07:46 monomo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 11 2015 06:30 Yorbon wrote:
On August 11 2015 05:31 monomo wrote:
On August 11 2015 05:17 Yorbon wrote:
As long as you cannot be reasonably sure you can repeat a score, that score does not represent your skill level.


I have huge issues with this statement actually. Very few players would have any kind of representation of their skill level on their profile if that were true.
This is not entirely correct. I do agree that the individual scores on someone's profile do not represent the skill level of that person, assuming what i said. However, the whole of someone's scores could say something about his skill level, because those scores collectively are unobtainable for someone with a (significantly) lower skill level within a reasonable amount of time. One can estimate a minimum skill level that way. This still gives a very weak estimate, however, as it still is dependent on time spent achieving those scores as well as skill. Someone who has spent 2 years at the same skill level, will be expected to have higher pp than someone at that skill level who's recently improved a lot. You might also say that increased farming activity (per amount of time) drives amount of pp upwards. So regardless of whether a score represents your skill level, your skill level is not represented well by your profile at all. (Please note that I said 'not well at all' and not 'not at all' just in case). I would argue that the higher the rank achieved, the more accurate the amount of pp is, because the attainability of those scores through sheer repetition decrease more rapidly (than at the lower levels) the higher the amount of pp.

Worth noting is also that this 'upward bias' is not necessarily a consequence of the current pp system or something. It is a bias coming from the fact that osu takes your maximum score, which correlates with highest pp score (note: correlate; no 1 on 1 relation). These kind of biases cannot be prevented by any kind of (reasonable) system, I think. So while I still accept the current system, it has it's flaws. One might see the scores on someone's profile as a first approximation of someone's skill.

Going back to when I saw your profile online just now. I saw you were rank 500, so assumed a (probable) minimum level. After that I just looked at scores you obtained and saw you are probably better than me (you at least were at that moment). Not based on rank, profile scores, or scores obtained after repeating, but based on scores on maps you had no way of knowing were coming.

I hope this is structured enough to follow. And sorry for all things in brackets; i hate written media.

tldr: Profile does not represent skill anyway, except at the highest level.




Sorry for being blunt, but the "skill" you're picturing there, that your referring to, does not exist. At least in the way you make it out to be (unified overall skill) - Me being better in maps that I have no idea were coming could be something ENTIRELY different than the skill needed to fc this or that DT map. I disagree with anyone stating the existence of a strong correlation between random map performance and sort-of-grindy-kindof map performance needed to gain PP.

There are at least 5 areas in osu! which require completely different skills. All the PP system does is take your peak performance and make it into a number, completely disregarding long term consistency, a possible glaring weakness in either aim, accuracy or speed, and the finer points of good sightreading.

So all PP can possibly do is show your peak "skill" over some time and it does that well: A few outliers in terms of single performances show a high peak performance

tl;dr there is no pure skill in PP anyway, because pure skill doesn't exist, and i think PP does a very good job showing your peak performance capabilities.


I don't mind anyone being blunt, we'll just agree to disagree (at some parts at least), I guess.

One thing I would like to say though, as clarification, is that I never intended to picture skill as a one-dimensional feature. When you say there are multiple 'areas' requiring different skills I could most probably agree with you, dependent on how you would view them, and any assessment of skill should (imo) be evaluated in each of those areas, however one would choose them.
Laurens
Profile Joined September 2010
Belgium4550 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-11 07:39:46
August 11 2015 07:28 GMT
#6525
Hi, I'm looking for some nice 4* - 4,5* maps to play.
I'm at the point where I can get S ranks on 3,5* maps and I want to try some harder ones, but I don't know which ones are good. I usually go for songs I like but western songs tend to have pretty shitty beatmaps.
Cheers

edit: just saw the post on the last page, will check those out

And with regards to the recent discussion about playing the same map too long, that's pretty much all I do Pick a map, try to complete it, then try to get a perfect combo on it, then move on to another map.
deakachu
Profile Joined December 2012
103 Posts
August 11 2015 08:33 GMT
#6526
I think going by sources is the easiest way to get the majority of "good" maps in osu. Bemani (iidx, jubeat, reflec beat, popn, sdvx), BMS, and Touhou somehow managed to attract a bunch of the really good mappers. I don't know if they have many in the 3.5*-4.5* range but some of my favourites are Kloyd, Guy, Asphyxia, Cherry Blossom, sionKotori, wring, Liiraye, RLC, Priti, Flower, alacat, eLy, Skystar, and AngelHoney. Try a bunch of those if you haven't. When you play a map and like it, go to the mappers profile and download all their other maps as well, search the artist, search the source etc.
Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20319 Posts
August 11 2015 15:07 GMT
#6527
Hey Laurens, what's your ingame name?
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
Bobbias
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada1373 Posts
August 11 2015 16:58 GMT
#6528
On August 11 2015 17:33 deakachu wrote:
When you play a map and like it, go to the mappers profile and download all their other maps as well, search the artist, search the source etc.


This, a thousand times. I've never understood why more people don't pay attention to who mapped something, because it's by far the easiest way to discover new maps.
Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20319 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-11 18:46:26
August 11 2015 18:39 GMT
#6529
streaming atm www.hitbox.tv/aeryn

not looking at chat a lot though (just a few ppl on skype)
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
falconfan02
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States231 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-11 19:18:14
August 11 2015 19:14 GMT
#6530
I kind of see both points of view as far as the PP = skill argument goes. I think that rank is a fairly good summation of all skills, but doesn't really tell you anything about a player's strengths or weaknesses unless you really analyze their top scores. For example, I'm sitting at about rank 30k right now. I think my raw aim potential (good at hitting hard patterns and passing hard maps where missed notes are acceptable), reading, and low bpm (>190) streaming are above my rank, my accuracy is probably the same as my rank, and that my aim consistency (bad at going the entire map without missing, even on maps "below" my level) and speed are below my rank (This assessment could be totally off by the way, just my best guess). All in all, I think that my rank is a pretty good representation of my skills as a whole.
Bobbias
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada1373 Posts
August 12 2015 03:35 GMT
#6531
PP is a godawful representation of skill given that skill is a multidimensional variable and PP is a single value. You're always going to lose a lot when you condense multiple values into a single one. But there's still correlation between PP and skill, because while a player may have more skill than their PP suggests, it's much harder to have less skill than your PP suggests. Now, to be clear I'm talking the difference between say a player with like less than 1k PP compared to a player with 2k+ PP. Chances are pretty good that the 2k+ PP player is noticeably better, unless the 1k PP player simply hasn't played shit.
deakachu
Profile Joined December 2012
103 Posts
August 12 2015 22:48 GMT
#6532


Quite pleased with this, even though the acc isn't great for od7. The 202bpm streams and awkward jumps have always been a problem for me before.
Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20319 Posts
August 12 2015 23:34 GMT
#6533
gz :D

it's harder to read stacked stuff with hitcircles like that
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
Yorbon
Profile Joined December 2011
Netherlands4272 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-13 00:42:53
August 13 2015 00:39 GMT
#6534
Nice, deakachu! I agree your timing seemed off sometimes, but in terms of aim and consistency during the song, this is quite nice

The play also reminds me that I've been thinking about removing the numbers as part of the hitcircles. Those numbers may be distracting. Could you maybe link me your skin, just to try out?

Edit: I thought it was the extra difficulty when posting this post :O Sorry! I've never actually played this difficulty afaik :$
deakachu
Profile Joined December 2012
103 Posts
August 13 2015 08:59 GMT
#6535
Here is my skin, it's just Azer's skin with Voyen's numbers I think, and I changed some menu images. I use map hitsounds so don't know what they will be like if you don't.

I think anything that I have problems reading is too fast for me to be able to process the numbers, so they are more of a distraction than anything. It is probably just preference though.
Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20319 Posts
August 13 2015 12:45 GMT
#6536
i fall back to looking at numbers on higher density maps that are too slow to read as comfortably as some others
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
monomo
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany150 Posts
August 13 2015 13:35 GMT
#6537
Today I found that increasing the Gamma to absurd levels in AMD Catalyst makes me able to kinda read AR10.56
Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20319 Posts
August 13 2015 13:42 GMT
#6538
Just make your skin brighter instead
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
deakachu
Profile Joined December 2012
103 Posts
August 13 2015 13:57 GMT
#6539
On August 13 2015 22:35 monomo wrote:
Today I found that increasing the Gamma to absurd levels in AMD Catalyst makes me able to kinda read AR10.56


REPORTED enjoy your lifetime ban for hacking buddy.
monomo
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany150 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-13 14:17:49
August 13 2015 14:12 GMT
#6540
I increased the gamma, not the brightness...

edit
Additionally I can't increase the brightness or the general appearance of aproach circles which was what I was mainly trying to do.
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