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On November 04 2011 06:10 abominare wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 19:04 Byzantium wrote:On November 03 2011 18:01 abominare wrote:On November 03 2011 17:55 Mandini wrote:On November 03 2011 17:50 abominare wrote:On November 03 2011 17:31 Byzantium wrote:On November 03 2011 17:10 abominare wrote:On November 02 2011 23:23 motbob wrote:
That thread, while terrible, has inspired me to write up a general theory of PLEX and isk in-game. I've struggled to wrap my head around the way PLEXes affect the EVE economy, and how isk sinks and isk bonanzas affect things.
I'm posting this so that people can correct me.
An increase in the amount of isk in EVE is generally reflected by an increase in PLEX prices. Every month, pilots have to make the decision of paying real money for their account or paying isk for a PLEX. For many people, this decision is easy, but for others who make only about 300-500m per month, the decision can be a tough one. An influx of isk shifts the decision towards "buy a PLEX" for a bunch of pilots, increasing the amount of demand for PLEX, pushing up the quantity sold and the price.
CCP have run the 13-PLEX promotion recently. This makes buying PLEX from CCP a better deal than before, which increases the supply of PLEX to the market, increasing PLEX volume and decreasing PLEX price.
Now CCP have introduced the "alt character for 6 months" promotion, which is increasing PLEX demand. People are also resubbing (only anecdotal evidence for this) and that's increasing demand even further.
For PLEX prices to fall once again, we'd need to see one of a few things:
- Incursions eliminated
- People unsubbing
- The real world economy improving (lol)
- Isk sinks that aren't completely awful
EDIT: does botting inflate PLEX prices? Riddle me that. We aren't actually seeing that big of a swing in number of plexes being bought up by players. Its up a little but is on a pretty normal growth cycle. The main culprit looks more like regular inflation. While CCP is on record saying they love to monitor the plex market, they aren't terribly concerned with the price. Bulk plex purchases normally coincide with landing right before some sort of plex for use promotion like power of two, which has more to do with accounting than actual concerns on the market, they're basically creating an influx to their accounts receivable and then funneling it out of there into cash to make their books look more impressive. Pretty much business as usual, the money supply needs to take a hit before you'll ever see plex prices go back down. So if this is the institutional environment that obtains, it's somewhat likely that the next big isk sink to go in will be the BPCs for the Customs Office Gantries and teir 3 BCs... so no big drop in Plex prices until the expansion. I've always felt that the loyalty poitns store as an isk sink was a logical fallacy. The bpcs will most certainly cost isk as well as lp The issue with the lp store as an isk sink is that it never actually causes enough isk to leave circulation. Even if you blitz you will still end up with more isk than the actual conversion cost (not tags) is between rewards and bounties. Infact making money off the lp encourages you to run eve more missions, at best it just retards the growth of money, the ship bpos will most likely not require lp so atleast they'll have a small impact, but realistically its a drop in the bucket. Better some deflation rather than none. Although since in Eve the inflation is endogenous it's certainly possible that the Customs Offices requiring Concord LP will just increase the rate of monetary expansion due to increased Incursion running. It's most likely that the best chance you have as a player for purchasing power increases with respect to in-game items is just for a huge rise in output to make everything cheaper faster than the money supply goes up. Of course, there are some ways to take isk out of the economy directly. Podding really old characters, insuring many ships and then never undocking, putting up buy orders for OPEs above CONCORD price and then dumping them into those NPC buy orders... It's our civic duty! Whip Inflation Now! and all that. I'm not sure if there's anything that could cause that in highsec (huge increases in mineral and PI production out of the same number of PLEX-demanding accounts?), but if they ever rebalance moon mining, I could imagine serious real purchasing power increases for t2 modules. Really though there's so many things institutionally weird about the Eve economy that make it hard to relate anything outside of the most basic economic relationships. In a world with no endogenous technological change, extremely limited realms of enforceable contracts, a monetary authority who seems to have no constraints, there's a lot which just wouldn't make sense in anything but a play economy. Its a less rapey Somalia. If you try to pirate in international waters (highsec) concord (navy seals) will fuck your shit though.
I started to write a very, very long post in reply to this but a) I realized it would be better to use that reply as an essay in one of my graduate classes and b) I'd be happier talking about it instead of making posts, forumwarrior style.
So Abom let's just say if you catch me on a day when I don't plan on sleeping until after downtime I'll gladly argue the very meaningful differences between New Eden and Somalia.
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Nope, do it forum warrior style. That way I can needlessly jump in to add my (obviously) great insight that I expect you to take as fact. Better that it comes from an honorable poster, than some random joe smoe!
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Russian Federation3631 Posts
From the cesspool of shitposting known as "Crime & Punishment" comes this gem, written by highsec warlord Kai86. Fun parts in bold:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=25941&p=2
Vito, bit off more than we could chew? LMAO HARDLY!
You see, here is the funny thing you all aren't realizing.
Efficiency -
Double Tap - 65%
NKING - 40%
ADOPT - 62%
those scores are after 2 weeks of war where we fought all 3 on their terms while outnumbered and grouped together because if we did not they would dock and log out for the evening. Knowing that we like good fights, we have spread ourselves out a little bit more than usual. We recently had a spy implanted into us from ADOPT who's goal was to kill the 100 percent efficiency we had VS ADOPT. He did this by losing a ship on the 4-4 undock and then losing a corpies' as well because of lack or rep/help during that fight. They used this underhanded tactic to get back at us because we dropped them like a bad habit. After the loss we were all feeling a bit ticked off that they would stoop that low so we decided to do the same.
We implanted one of our alts with the sole intent on losing ships under the ADOPT flag to right the wrong that they made. Once he was in, he immediately lost a Megathron Navy Issue x2 and a Navy Geddon. We were going to do machariels out of spite but it would have been too obvious.
Now that ADOPT know we can hit them where it hurts even when they dock up against us, they have ceased fighting us at all and most are not logging in for more than to change skills. The remainder stay mainly in frigates until they see one of us in local and then they dock, log or both. They wanted to play the metagame, welcome to!
On Battleclinic, we made ADOPT lose a grand total of 43 billion ISK in the ships that we destroyed and more is on the way!
Vito, in response though, we are doing MORE than fine and as i said if it had not been a metagame tactic used by ADOPT, we would still have 90's efficiencies still but they had to stoop to these underhanded methods in order to get any and all kills off of us. Pretty sad when the "owners of highsec" <--- this was said to our spy as he was asking about the alliance, have to resort to metagame tactics to beat a 33 man corp/alliance. We are biting off more than we could chew? No, not really at all huh?
4-4 undock incident (presumably): http://www.0rphanage.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=27521
Navythrons + Navygeddons: http://killboard.evekb.co.uk/?a=kill_related&kll_id=1910225
(at least they are stimulating the FN webifier market, and yes, they blew up one of their own deadspace fitted Navythrons to increase killboard efficiency)
I'm speechless.
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Lost my frig cuz I fell asleep at my keyboard :T So yeah, it's not like someone sg'ed my 3sec align kessie in midroute.
I'd be more bummed about it, except that I still have about 1.5 bil in liquid assets, so meh ...
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On November 04 2011 11:56 419 wrote:From the cesspool of shitposting known as "Crime & Punishment" comes this gem, written by highsec warlord Kai86. Fun parts in bold: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=25941&p=2Show nested quote +Vito, bit off more than we could chew? LMAO HARDLY!
You see, here is the funny thing you all aren't realizing.
Efficiency -
Double Tap - 65%
NKING - 40%
ADOPT - 62%
those scores are after 2 weeks of war where we fought all 3 on their terms while outnumbered and grouped together because if we did not they would dock and log out for the evening. Knowing that we like good fights, we have spread ourselves out a little bit more than usual. We recently had a spy implanted into us from ADOPT who's goal was to kill the 100 percent efficiency we had VS ADOPT. He did this by losing a ship on the 4-4 undock and then losing a corpies' as well because of lack or rep/help during that fight. They used this underhanded tactic to get back at us because we dropped them like a bad habit. After the loss we were all feeling a bit ticked off that they would stoop that low so we decided to do the same.
We implanted one of our alts with the sole intent on losing ships under the ADOPT flag to right the wrong that they made. Once he was in, he immediately lost a Megathron Navy Issue x2 and a Navy Geddon. We were going to do machariels out of spite but it would have been too obvious.
Now that ADOPT know we can hit them where it hurts even when they dock up against us, they have ceased fighting us at all and most are not logging in for more than to change skills. The remainder stay mainly in frigates until they see one of us in local and then they dock, log or both. They wanted to play the metagame, welcome to!
On Battleclinic, we made ADOPT lose a grand total of 43 billion ISK in the ships that we destroyed and more is on the way!
Vito, in response though, we are doing MORE than fine and as i said if it had not been a metagame tactic used by ADOPT, we would still have 90's efficiencies still but they had to stoop to these underhanded methods in order to get any and all kills off of us. Pretty sad when the "owners of highsec" <--- this was said to our spy as he was asking about the alliance, have to resort to metagame tactics to beat a 33 man corp/alliance. We are biting off more than we could chew? No, not really at all huh? 4-4 undock incident (presumably): http://www.0rphanage.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=27521Navythrons + Navygeddons: http://killboard.evekb.co.uk/?a=kill_related&kll_id=1910225(at least they are stimulating the FN webifier market, and yes, they blew up one of their own deadspace fitted Navythrons to increase killboard efficiency) I'm speechless.
All about what the relevant margin is. If you have a lexicographic preference for relative killboard efficiency...
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United States43869 Posts
eve forums plex price discussion:
No you are wrong, If you doesn't pay for subscription with RL money you are worthless for CCP. Sorry about that.
CCP is a company that exist to make money ( just like every other in the world ) if they let you play for free by buying PLEX with ISK
that's because they are not very greedy. Every subscription payed with ISK is waste of profit for CCP.
I expect to be payed for my work, CCP either.
This is sad for many of us but it's the way that RL economy works.
I always wondered why CCP is so generous and keeps PLEX prices so low compared to ISK/h ratios in the game.
It's very easy to make 150-200m with little effort per day thease days.
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On November 04 2011 12:55 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +eve forums plex price discussion:
No you are wrong, If you doesn't pay for subscription with RL money you are worthless for CCP. Sorry about that.
CCP is a company that exist to make money ( just like every other in the world ) if they let you play for free by buying PLEX with ISK
that's because they are not very greedy. Every subscription payed with ISK is waste of profit for CCP.
I expect to be payed for my work, CCP either.
This is sad for many of us but it's the way that RL economy works.
I always wondered why CCP is so generous and keeps PLEX prices so low compared to ISK/h ratios in the game.
It's very easy to make 150-200m with little effort per day thease days.
Oh my god it hurts.
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On November 04 2011 12:55 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +eve forums plex price discussion:
No you are wrong, If you doesn't pay for subscription with RL money you are worthless for CCP. Sorry about that.
CCP is a company that exist to make money ( just like every other in the world ) if they let you play for free by buying PLEX with ISK
that's because they are not very greedy. Every subscription payed with ISK is waste of profit for CCP.
I expect to be payed for my work, CCP either.
This is sad for many of us but it's the way that RL economy works.
I always wondered why CCP is so generous and keeps PLEX prices so low compared to ISK/h ratios in the game.
It's very easy to make 150-200m with little effort per day thease days.
Herp
Derp
If people like him can make 200m a day something is very wrong.
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I mine my minerals to build my bombers = free bombers for me
I pay isk to get my plex = free game time, i don't have to pay 15$ a month like those poor suckers
I am smart becuase i can do everything for free. CCP is the best company... ever
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On November 04 2011 12:55 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +eve forums plex price discussion:
No you are wrong, If you doesn't pay for subscription with RL money you are worthless for CCP. Sorry about that.
CCP is a company that exist to make money ( just like every other in the world ) if they let you play for free by buying PLEX with ISK
that's because they are not very greedy. Every subscription payed with ISK is waste of profit for CCP.
I expect to be payed for my work, CCP either.
This is sad for many of us but it's the way that RL economy works.
I always wondered why CCP is so generous and keeps PLEX prices so low compared to ISK/h ratios in the game.
It's very easy to make 150-200m with little effort per day thease days.
My god, CCP generous, CCP keeping plex prices low? This man speaks truth.
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On November 04 2011 11:20 Byzantium wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 06:10 abominare wrote:On November 03 2011 19:04 Byzantium wrote:On November 03 2011 18:01 abominare wrote:On November 03 2011 17:55 Mandini wrote:On November 03 2011 17:50 abominare wrote:On November 03 2011 17:31 Byzantium wrote:On November 03 2011 17:10 abominare wrote:On November 02 2011 23:23 motbob wrote:
That thread, while terrible, has inspired me to write up a general theory of PLEX and isk in-game. I've struggled to wrap my head around the way PLEXes affect the EVE economy, and how isk sinks and isk bonanzas affect things.
I'm posting this so that people can correct me.
An increase in the amount of isk in EVE is generally reflected by an increase in PLEX prices. Every month, pilots have to make the decision of paying real money for their account or paying isk for a PLEX. For many people, this decision is easy, but for others who make only about 300-500m per month, the decision can be a tough one. An influx of isk shifts the decision towards "buy a PLEX" for a bunch of pilots, increasing the amount of demand for PLEX, pushing up the quantity sold and the price.
CCP have run the 13-PLEX promotion recently. This makes buying PLEX from CCP a better deal than before, which increases the supply of PLEX to the market, increasing PLEX volume and decreasing PLEX price.
Now CCP have introduced the "alt character for 6 months" promotion, which is increasing PLEX demand. People are also resubbing (only anecdotal evidence for this) and that's increasing demand even further.
For PLEX prices to fall once again, we'd need to see one of a few things:
- Incursions eliminated
- People unsubbing
- The real world economy improving (lol)
- Isk sinks that aren't completely awful
EDIT: does botting inflate PLEX prices? Riddle me that. We aren't actually seeing that big of a swing in number of plexes being bought up by players. Its up a little but is on a pretty normal growth cycle. The main culprit looks more like regular inflation. While CCP is on record saying they love to monitor the plex market, they aren't terribly concerned with the price. Bulk plex purchases normally coincide with landing right before some sort of plex for use promotion like power of two, which has more to do with accounting than actual concerns on the market, they're basically creating an influx to their accounts receivable and then funneling it out of there into cash to make their books look more impressive. Pretty much business as usual, the money supply needs to take a hit before you'll ever see plex prices go back down. So if this is the institutional environment that obtains, it's somewhat likely that the next big isk sink to go in will be the BPCs for the Customs Office Gantries and teir 3 BCs... so no big drop in Plex prices until the expansion. I've always felt that the loyalty poitns store as an isk sink was a logical fallacy. The bpcs will most certainly cost isk as well as lp The issue with the lp store as an isk sink is that it never actually causes enough isk to leave circulation. Even if you blitz you will still end up with more isk than the actual conversion cost (not tags) is between rewards and bounties. Infact making money off the lp encourages you to run eve more missions, at best it just retards the growth of money, the ship bpos will most likely not require lp so atleast they'll have a small impact, but realistically its a drop in the bucket. Better some deflation rather than none. Although since in Eve the inflation is endogenous it's certainly possible that the Customs Offices requiring Concord LP will just increase the rate of monetary expansion due to increased Incursion running. It's most likely that the best chance you have as a player for purchasing power increases with respect to in-game items is just for a huge rise in output to make everything cheaper faster than the money supply goes up. Of course, there are some ways to take isk out of the economy directly. Podding really old characters, insuring many ships and then never undocking, putting up buy orders for OPEs above CONCORD price and then dumping them into those NPC buy orders... It's our civic duty! Whip Inflation Now! and all that. I'm not sure if there's anything that could cause that in highsec (huge increases in mineral and PI production out of the same number of PLEX-demanding accounts?), but if they ever rebalance moon mining, I could imagine serious real purchasing power increases for t2 modules. Really though there's so many things institutionally weird about the Eve economy that make it hard to relate anything outside of the most basic economic relationships. In a world with no endogenous technological change, extremely limited realms of enforceable contracts, a monetary authority who seems to have no constraints, there's a lot which just wouldn't make sense in anything but a play economy. Its a less rapey Somalia. If you try to pirate in international waters (highsec) concord (navy seals) will fuck your shit though. I started to write a very, very long post in reply to this but a) I realized it would be better to use that reply as an essay in one of my graduate classes and b) I'd be happier talking about it instead of making posts, forumwarrior style. So Abom let's just say if you catch me on a day when I don't plan on sleeping until after downtime I'll gladly argue the very meaningful differences between New Eden and Somalia.
Tbh i was just being snarky, anytime i try to be snarky in other topics on TL i just get warned/banned. Then again I was only half serious when I debated you on the mental capacities of eve players, so perhaps I'll give it ago.
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Lalalaland34503 Posts
Pretty sure ^ is asking for a warn :D :D :D
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United States43869 Posts
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Lalalaland34503 Posts
... ahahahahaha oh god that's golden. Lost 500m three times in a row, all to the same scam.
I'm pretty sure it's a troll but it's pretty good for one. Last line was brilliant as well.
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United States43869 Posts
Not a troll, there were a half dozen relevant topics in CP posted at various stages along that.
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What is so good about goonwaffe, that this guy gets scammed exactly the same way multiple times, and then decides to make a whine document so he looks even more pathetic?
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On November 04 2011 23:24 BlooDAnGeL wrote:
What is so good about goonwaffe, that this guy gets scammed exactly the same way multiple times, and then decides to make a whine document so he looks even more pathetic?
This guy is a retard with negative self esteem and a heavily dependent personality. If he was on old lady, some 40 yr old guy would scam him out of his life's fortune.
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On November 04 2011 11:58 happyft wrote:
Lost my frig cuz I fell asleep at my keyboard :T So yeah, it's not like someone sg'ed my 3sec align kessie in midroute.
I'd be more bummed about it, except that I still have about 1.5 bil in liquid assets, so meh ...
just wait until the day you wake up and log into your wh to find that nothings there. Yeah its a bitch of an hour until you can move again.
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EPT
