EPTEVE Corporation - Page 421
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pahndah
1193 Posts
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On March 24 2011 06:35 Capiru wrote: *Facepalm* oh god kwark, g.g. You would not last a week with snakes would you? Kwark doesn't keep expensive implant sets for more than 3-4 days. Nice to see this hasn't changed. | ||
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Warri
Germany3208 Posts
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Sard Caid
124 Posts
Good times, and yeah, things were looking a little dicey under that neut pressure. Was really hoping half way into it y'all kept shooting them rather than me. =) | ||
Firebolt145
Lalalaland34506 Posts
On March 24 2011 07:57 Sard Caid wrote: Comms were amazing during Kwark's escapade. Good times, and yeah, things were looking a little dicey under that neut pressure. Was really hoping half way into it y'all kept shooting them rather than me. =) Well, considering you were firing lazers at us before that, it would have been well within our rights to kill you instead. But we'll ally with you over other pirates any day <3 edit: I'm curious as to what their coms were like before as their mega definitely had eyes on us poking each other before that. | ||
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Valenius
United Kingdom1266 Posts
My Uni's broken up ridiculously early for Easter (we're actually back at uni for easter :s), so i'll probably just update skills and occasionaly mission. | ||
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Firebolt145
Lalalaland34506 Posts
1) Nanopest v drake ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/7t9bc.png) Red = RF EMP (best RF option), green = barrage. RF EMP does more damage at <25km range, Barrage does better at >25km. 2) Nanopest v shield cane with 1x anti-em rig ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/kRYsF.png) Red = RF PP (best RF option), green = barrage. RF PP does more damage at <19.5km range, Barrage does better at >19.5km. 3) Increasing transversal does make RF ammo better at slightly more range. At max possible transversal against a cane, it makes it better up to 26.5km and not by much. However we have to consider that this sort of transversal is unusual when we nano. ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/eH0Of.png) --- These graphs are suggesting to me that when I get into a nanopest I should continue whoring on the Barrage ammo in 90% of situations. Personally I don't think I will ever feel safe under 20km from a target as a nanopest as well so the damage increase potential of RF ammo is largely wasted. Obviously these graphs are only for drake/shield cane but I do not think the situation is too different for most ships (obviously excluding ships with extremely high kinetic/explosive resists and much lower EM resists). I should add that these damage numbers are with my current skills so please ignore them, but changing from my skills to all V's should not affect these graphs much if at all (I am missing Large Projectiles V but I already have Sharpshooting and Trajectory Analysis IV). Finally I should admit that I am very much a newbie to EFT warrioring so suggestions or posts pointing out glaring errors are welcome. And now I shall sleep. | ||
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Sard Caid
124 Posts
Possible problems with your EFT analysis would be MWDs on vs off or one guy with MWD on or off. I think you should also look at the effects of signature on that analysis. | ||
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abominare
United States1216 Posts
On March 24 2011 14:03 Sard Caid wrote: Well, its telling you about what experience would lead you towards - close range ammo out to 20km, barrage beyond that. Since your combat range is about 20km (neuts, point range), the only time you should be using barrage is when you're kiting a target or need to frag something at range (falcon, other ewar). Possible problems with your EFT analysis would be MWDs on vs off or one guy with MWD on or off. I think you should also look at the effects of signature on that analysis. Correct me if im wrong but while the dmg would go up it would be proportional to whats going on here. Since in this case sig only affects chance to hit for turrets. The neuts are more of a wtf get this damn tackle off of me button as well, my understanding is you want to be farther than 20k(especailly not in point range) in most cases because of not only the sluggish acceleration of a bs but the fact that in most cases youll have to watch overheating on your mwd to stay away from things at the bc level, your fast for a bs but not that fast. Also keep in mind your tank is near papery slugging it out within operational range of of bs lass ships isnt exactly a great move Jayme has a lot more experience with this sort of thing anyways so I would defer to him anyways. | ||
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Sard Caid
124 Posts
The graphs are giving the correct idea, as I stated. Correct me if im wrong but while the dmg would go up it would be proportional to whats going on here. Since in this case sig only affects chance to hit for turrets. I'm really not sure what you're asserting here, proportional to what? The sig radius analysis would give Fire a good idea on how he hits cruiser sized ships, the difference between when their MWD is on vs off, vs tackle, etc. Neuts are definitely not just to counter tackle - their ability to break tanks safely at range makes them invaluable in virutally any fleet situation, especially in nano gangs where you don't have the raw punching power of slower, closer range dedicated compositions. And generally in any PvP situation you want to be close enough to targets to point them, thus 20-30km to targets, which also coincides with your neut range. Again, the nano pest is about the same speed and agility wise as a nanoless cane, so ~1.3 km/s unheated, 1.8 km/s overheated speeds with similar agility. With the heavy neuts it's extremely viable. | ||
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Firebolt145
Lalalaland34506 Posts
The thought of an enemy BC that could suddenly overheat and burn towards me with an acceleration I cannot match as I try to run away (even if my max speed > his max speed thanks to links), suddenly appearing in scram range, is what I fear the most (even if a nanoing scram cane is unusual). I think when I first begin I shall certainly aim to stay around the 'safer' 24km mark, and thus will stick it out with Barrage for a while. Once I start getting a better feel for the ship and feeling more confident at a 18-20km range I shall start switching to RF ammo. For now I will grab my balls and start nanoing at the 18km mark on my cane to try and work on my reaction timing etc oh yeaaaaah edit: heavy neuts = 25.2km range so I'll be able to use them at any of the ranges I'm proposing. edit 2: is there any benefit to using Navy Cap Booster charges instead of normal ones? As far as I can tell, the only advantage is that Navy = smaller so you can fit more into your cargo. :/// | ||
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vetinari
Australia602 Posts
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Firebolt145
Lalalaland34506 Posts
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abominare
United States1216 Posts
On March 24 2011 15:33 Sard Caid wrote: Well, I've flown the ship, and it's certainly not papery. Also, it handles like a cane with 2x nanos, which is very much nimble for a BS. The graphs are giving the correct idea, as I stated. I'm really not sure what you're asserting here, proportional to what? The sig radius analysis would give Fire a good idea on how he hits cruiser sized ships, the difference between when their MWD is on vs off, vs tackle, etc. Neuts are definitely not just to counter tackle - their ability to break tanks safely at range makes them invaluable in virutally any fleet situation, especially in nano gangs where you don't have the raw punching power of slower, closer range dedicated compositions. And generally in any PvP situation you want to be close enough to targets to point them, thus 20-30km to targets, which also coincides with your neut range. Again, the nano pest is about the same speed and agility wise as a nanoless cane, so ~1.3 km/s unheated, 1.8 km/s overheated speeds with similar agility. With the heavy neuts it's extremely viable. Without going into the complexities of the damage formula, if we assume that the ∆ from going from x to y sig results in a z difference of chance to hit we can assume (hopefully) that since other constants have remained the same the dps ratios between the two ammo types will remain relative to each other, ie lets say z difference in sig meant 10% less dps it would mean ammo A went from 300 to 270 and ammo B 150 to135 reflects that ammo B still does 50% the dps ammo A does. However you think it would be apparent under the constraint that the target is flying straight at you (we say this because eve is very ocd about other trig factors i dont feel like going through) your large sig auto canons will hit things with a small sig like shit, on average atleast since its still technically chance based. Well in terms of EHP we're talking about 64k ehp for the fit going around the hatchery with perf skills. which sure is more than a shield cane(17k more), but considering the kind of tank you can fit on other BS, or a drake for that matter it isnt exactly impressive. Perhaps we had different opinions on 'papery', further more the brunt of the ehp increase is actually from the armor/hull differences in terms of shield ehp theyre very similar Im, in more of a habit to avoid using armor and hull hp, bit of a chicken i suppose. Ill probly get some flack for saying this but the point on the pest is more of a formality in my mind. You bring the pest because you want to bring more dps, no one is thinking to themselves I hope that pest goes and points something if youre in a fleet and theres no more bc,cruisers,frigs to point the things you've allowed to get close enough to kill the pest doesnt need to be there anymore anyways. Its there to wail on things and if something does manage to get close enough to the pest it can point them before they realize the folly of their ways. The pest ideally stays closer to 24-28k (assuming the enemy hasnt been whittled down to just their battleships) to give it time to react (its still slower than most other guys in fleet) and can still over heat the point if need be) 24-28k is more of an awkward range for a lot of ships that the pest can dps on and its a much more conservative range to avoid being tackled. That being said the situation matters a lot based on what youre shooting at. So I guess I agree if you need the pest to hold point 20k if youre picking ships on approach separated from their main gang try to stay out farther and overheat your point. | ||
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Firebolt145
Lalalaland34506 Posts
On March 24 2011 17:53 abominare wrote: The pest ideally stays closer to 24-28k (assuming the enemy hasnt been whittled down to just their battleships) to give it time to react (its still slower than most other guys in fleet) and can still over heat the point if need be) 24-28k is more of an awkward range for a lot of ships that the pest can dps on and its a much more conservative range to avoid being tackled. That being said the situation matters a lot based on what youre shooting at. So I guess I agree if you need the pest to hold point 20k if youre picking ships on approach separated from their main gang try to stay out farther and overheat your point. With links (I don't plan on flying pest without links) point range goes to 32km/40km overheated and is pretty much irrelevant. The whole thing I'm debating about is the safe range to hang about, and thus what ammo to use. I suppose 'safe' range will depend on the pilot, hence my plans to start at 24km and slowly make my way closer to fights as I feel more confident. | ||
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pahndah
1193 Posts
On March 24 2011 17:53 abominare wrote: Without going into the complexities of the damage formula, if we assume that the ∆ from going from x to y sig results in a z difference of chance to hit we can assume (hopefully) that since other constants have remained the same the dps ratios between the two ammo types will remain relative to each other, ie lets say z difference in sig meant 10% less dps it would mean ammo A went from 300 to 270 and ammo B 150 to135 reflects that ammo B still does 50% the dps ammo A does. However you think it would be apparent under the constraint that the target is flying straight at you (we say this because eve is very ocd about other trig factors i dont feel like going through) your large sig auto canons will hit things with a small sig like shit, on average atleast since its still technically chance based. Well in terms of EHP we're talking about 64k ehp for the fit going around the hatchery with perf skills. which sure is more than a shield cane(17k more), but considering the kind of tank you can fit on other BS, or a drake for that matter it isnt exactly impressive. Perhaps we had different opinions on 'papery', further more the brunt of the ehp increase is actually from the armor/hull differences in terms of shield ehp theyre very similar Im, in more of a habit to avoid using armor and hull hp, bit of a chicken i suppose. Ill probly get some flack for saying this but the point on the pest is more of a formality in my mind. You bring the pest because you want to bring more dps, no one is thinking to themselves I hope that pest goes and points something if youre in a fleet and theres no more bc,cruisers,frigs to point the things you've allowed to get close enough to kill the pest doesnt need to be there anymore anyways. Its there to wail on things and if something does manage to get close enough to the pest it can point them before they realize the folly of their ways. The pest ideally stays closer to 24-28k (assuming the enemy hasnt been whittled down to just their battleships) to give it time to react (its still slower than most other guys in fleet) and can still over heat the point if need be) 24-28k is more of an awkward range for a lot of ships that the pest can dps on and its a much more conservative range to avoid being tackled. That being said the situation matters a lot based on what youre shooting at. So I guess I agree if you need the pest to hold point 20k if youre picking ships on approach separated from their main gang try to stay out farther and overheat your point. Pest is tanky in nature because of its engagement range. Only thing you have to worry about are Drakes which does comparatively low dps anyway and harbingers with scorch which are a myth, even though the damage they do is ridiculously good. Therefore the tankyness is quite alot compared to what EFT tells you. You basically get twice the firepower of a cane with extended range! Also you can one-two shot inties if you get lucky/they approach wrong. Just test it out on Sisi imo. | ||
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abominare
United States1216 Posts
Battle starts nano fleet runs to separate the faster enemy ships form the slower. At a sufficient range you en engage the separated group pest stays back a little further still bringing in better than cane dps, youre further back because more ships are coming, ships that have to be closer are typically grabbing the point and if need be the pest can overheat to help spread points. Rinse repeat. When youre ready to engage whats left of the enemy being in closer isnt too much of a concern depending what theyre fielding. You can stay within long point at that 20-24k range, if its enough to just brawl at that point fuckit load in non barrage ammo and knock your socks off it doesnt matter at that point anyways. | ||
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abominare
United States1216 Posts
On March 24 2011 18:10 pahndah wrote: Pest is tanky in nature because of its engagement range. Only thing you have to worry about are Drakes which does comparatively low dps anyway and harbingers with scorch which are a myth, even though the damage they do is ridiculously good. Therefore the tankyness is quite alot compared to what EFT tells you. You basically get twice the firepower of a cane with extended range! Also you can one-two shot inties if you get lucky/they approach wrong. Just test it out on Sisi imo. Which is the point im saying you stick the pest back out to enjoy the range tank not stick it within 20k along side the canes. | ||
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pahndah
1193 Posts
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abominare
United States1216 Posts
On March 24 2011 18:05 Firebolt145 wrote: With links (I don't plan on flying pest without links) point range goes to 32km/40km overheated and is pretty much irrelevant. The whole thing I'm debating about is the safe range to hang about, and thus what ammo to use. I suppose 'safe' range will depend on the pilot, hence my plans to start at 24km and slowly make my way closer to fights as I feel more confident. Getting back to your question of ammo, the answer is barrage, youre hanging out at 24-28k if you have links then yea point away . If the battle ever comes down to you being able to get close enough to justify non barrage ammo its moot because youre already won. | ||
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