EPTThe CGS Shuts its Doors :( - Page 4
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OGzan
United States289 Posts
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WorldComunist8
United States5 Posts
Admins who banned me: I don't think you're stupid. I fucked up, and I know that. I deserved that ban, and I'm not pleading to be un-banned. Ban me again after this. However, I beg as an ambassador of eSports, leave this post. I couldn't go without saying a part on this, considering I had been making it a part of my life lately. That said. I had the wonderful privilege in the past two to three weeks of immersing myself in the world of the CGS. The reason? Originally, I wanted to see if and how SC could be involved. Then I became fascinated with it, and friendly with several people. I realized many things in this time. 1) Game choice did not ruin this league. We, the fans, did. We decided that because our favorite game was not involved, we wouldn't give a damn. SC wasn't in it, so half of us didn't watch. Understandable. Source was chosen over 1.6. Get over it and watch it and support this cause. For the other 3 games, they were trying to make it multi-dimensional. Whether they were the right or wrong choices didn't matter. They were learning. There were plans on changing the games anyways before next season. You can't start a revolution with one group. They needed the support of everyone to get going. Not just the fans of the chosen games. 2) To the 1.6 die-hards out there. Source was chosen. Some of the best 1.6 players left 1.6 for this. The fact of the matter is, Source is what the developers want, and by fighting and only playing 1.6, you hurt the community. You don't provide the developers with the necessary material to create a better game next time around. If anyone is sending the community a giant step backwards, it is those of you refusing to move forward. 3) This hurts the foreign eSports community as a whole. eSports outside of Korea will either succeed or fail as a whole. Not just one or two games. You will never see StarCraft succeed in the West alone. Nor will WarCraft. Or CounterStrike. You need unity among the eSports community. You don't have to go play all of the games, but tune in, learn about the game and watch. As it stands right now, we don't have mainstream support. We're all we've got. 4) We need to worry as SC fans about SC2. Look at the CounterStrike community. A major league shut down two days ago, and many are blaming it on a community divide. Why is that community divided? CounterStrike: Source is claimed to be not as competitive as CounterStrike 1.6. StarCraft 2 is only in development, but what do we hear? It's not as competitive. They say history repeats itself, but I never thought it to be this close. If anything let this be a lesson. No one league is invincible. You could click tomorrow and the OSL, MSL, TG-Sambo or Proleague could be gone. Just remember that. | ||
GTR
51453 Posts
On November 20 2008 18:24 WorldComunist8 wrote: 2) To the 1.6 die-hards out there. Source was chosen. Some of the best 1.6 players left 1.6 for this. The fact of the matter is, Source is what the developers want, and by fighting and only playing 1.6, you hurt the community. You don't provide the developers with the necessary material to create a better game next time around. Stop talking out of your ass. 1) Source was only chosen because it was the only viable team-based FPS which was pretty enough to be broadcasted on television, while receiving viewers. It was obvious, if they didn't pick a game that looked good, no one would come watch (DoA over various other good fighting games etc is another example). 2) One of the reasons why 1.6 players left the 1.6 scene because they were bound to a contract and could not play non-CGS games competitively outside of the CGS circuit. Although there was an exception to this rule (coL playing in CEVO with 1.6), it could have been simply avoided by shaping this rule around to suit the teams needs. Personally though, I think US CS has prospered from the leaving of coL, JMC, EG, 3D etc by garnering new talents such as the players from GG, EG and X30 (who were previously under-looked due to the performances of coL, 3D etc). 3) The main reason though I think is it was for the money. If I remember correctly, the initial salary per year was 30,000+? After the first season though, it lowered to 25,000 or so. I might be wrong here though. It was an insurance basically, that, even if the players do not perform well, the CGS will be able to compensate and pay the players. 4) If Source is what Valve wanted to aim as the new CS competitive game, why introduce Dynamic Pricing? (Thankfully that could be disabled). Why introduce buying guns without having to buy ammo? Why do a stupid, MR10, 16k Start Money system? CGS and Valve basically dumbed down CS to the point where it isn't even worth watching. I enjoy watching the pistol round, and to be honest, I think it is one of the most strategical rounds next to the first rifle round. I get excited when teams miraculously win their eco rounds. I don't enjoy 5 players with full grenades/armor on the first round. Most of the thinking required behind CS with the money management was basically lost with the new system being introduced. 5) What material are you talking about? The ill-fated CSPromod was a step in the right direction, yet a step in the wrong direction. It is best for Valve to produce something similar to this, as it is 1.6 game play wise, yet Source graphic wise, a good combination if you want a game which everyone knows/agrees with yet is broadcast able. | ||
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WorldComunist8
United States5 Posts
I also agree Promod was a step in both directions. I think it would have been beneficial in that, yes it would've bridged the gap between the two. Bad because you're creating a third party in the mess. As for Valve making a new game, who knows? I believe they're busy fighting Live for Windows or whatever the hell that new platform is. | ||
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GTR
51453 Posts
Would have been better to watch and no stupid Belle playing. | ||
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WorldComunist8
United States5 Posts
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Alizee-
United States845 Posts
Some players present themselves very well and are worthy of respect, others act like dumb kids who play games all day and when you present anything as a sport or competition especially on tv, you need professionalism. Also remember if CGS were to be huge, they would inevitably have to get viewers from elsewhere...there are usually around 150k players at anytime for source and 1.6 combined. So let's say that there's roughly 1 million active players, even if all the fairly active players(casual, competitive, and in between)all watched counter-strike that's only 1 million...world wide. Needless to say the inevitable must occur and that is to draw viewers from other sources and that's where you have to watch and not just bitch because "your" game didn't make it. As much as people wanna say "I don't give a damn about those games" the truth of the matter is that if companies didn't give a damn, you wouldn't get more than a penny for playing games, so why some gamers get this holier than thou thing going on where they feel they DESERVE money because they play X game is a crock of shit. I'm not admitting there weren't flaws in CGS, really I can find flaws in nearly anything, but you take the good with the bad and weigh it out in the end to see if it works. I hope they come back or ESPN/MLG get things rollin, otherwise it'll be a shaky situation. I know many on this site would love for Korea to branch out, but I think the reality is they just don't have the size that some other areas of the world have. American/European companies are comparatively massive to the Korean channels and so if there's gonna be the whole global e-sports thing, I wouldn't put watermelons into their basket. | ||
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SilverSkyLark
Philippines8437 Posts
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Chef
10810 Posts
So if I were to contrast my conclusion against theirs, I would say they're half right. It was too early, because only now is everyone (well, not to the extent of South Korea because of a lack of popularity for PC Bangs, but still) starting to have really fast internet, and it's becoming primitive not to own a home PC. The computer savviness being socially acceptable is more or less a reality, but you could give it another 5 years to be fully attuned (basically every student is doing their research on the internet, and has learned that computers are awesome things to be good with, even apart from MSN  ). But what North America will never have, is complete focus on one video game. Seriously, South Korea was a fluke. FPS shooters get banned, and an incredibly anticipated RTS is released right in time. Blizzard would seriously have to lobby just to make this happen in any other country, and obviously they don't care to (not with their profits largely coming from WoW).PS: I didn't read any of the other posts, but I feel my contribution was worth submitting because I highly doubt anyone else has been doing their university term paper on such a random topic. I might ask my teacher if I can post my essay on the internet after I hand it in. I've already done my oral presentation, and I could post the script for that too if I ask permission. | ||
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MayorITC
Korea (South)798 Posts
You really don't know what you're talking about. Yes there are tons of Koreans who play Starcraft, but there's tons of Koreans who play other games. E-sports thrives in Korea not because we narrowed our focus to a single game but rather because of the sheer number of gamers in Korea. | ||
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[-Bluewolf-]
United States609 Posts
On November 20 2008 18:24 WorldComunist8 wrote: 1) Game choice did not ruin this league. We, the fans, did. We decided that because our favorite game was not involved, we wouldn't give a damn. SC wasn't in it, so half of us didn't watch. Understandable. Source was chosen over 1.6. Get over it and watch it and support this cause. For the other 3 games, they were trying to make it multi-dimensional. Whether they were the right or wrong choices didn't matter. They were learning. There were plans on changing the games anyways before next season. You can't start a revolution with one group. They needed the support of everyone to get going. Not just the fans of the chosen games. I disagree. The game's CGS choose were boring to watch - especially with the rule sets chosen for them. People in CGS keep claiming others know nothing about what is watchable - and keep bitching when people outside CGS don't watch it. It doesn't take much to see that the claim of those involved in CGS has a logical fallacy - especially when Tasteless' first English pro-league cast can get millions of viewers internationally. I'm not about to watch utter boring crap just so that I can support a league that keeps blindly choosing to show crap. Don't take my word for it - just look at the comments from even some of the casual gaming sites: http://kotaku.com/5092536/another-pro-gaming-league-goes-under and http://www.joystiq.com/2008/11/18/r-i-p-championship-gaming-series/ . Simply put: The games were boring to watch, at least with the rule sets CGS decided to use, and so yes, they are partially responsible for the death of that league. | ||
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On November 20 2008 22:58 MayorITC wrote: Pretty sure FPS are not banned in Korea considering I've seen CS and Sudden Attack matches on TV for the past six years. You really don't know what you're talking about. Yes there are tons of Koreans who play Starcraft, but there's tons of Koreans who play other games. E-sports thrives in Korea not because we narrowed our focus to a single game but rather because of the sheer number of gamers in Korea. Note that he said "were" banned, which as far as I know is true. They are not banned now, but 10 years ago (or a little more perhaps) they were. As were a lot of japanese console games I think? Also, yes, nowadays there are just a ton of different games being played in Korea, but 10 years ago... I wasn't there myself, but what I've been told is that back then, pretty much everyone played SC, like 90% of the computers in PC Cafe's would have SC running all the time. On November 20 2008 19:57 Alizee- wrote: I actually found the franchises to be an excellent idea. Why? Well simply put, because these are games and prior to things like CGS there wasn't any big money other than tournament wins. So naturally if you're making money from tournaments you'll try to get on the best team and inbetween tournaments it doesn't matter. As a result? Lots of team reforms, lots of roster changes, etc. It introduced much needed stability in, lets face it, a rather unprofessional community. Some players present themselves very well and are worthy of respect, others act like dumb kids who play games all day and when you present anything as a sport or competition especially on tv, you need professionalism. Also remember if CGS were to be huge, they would inevitably have to get viewers from elsewhere...there are usually around 150k players at anytime for source and 1.6 combined. So let's say that there's roughly 1 million active players, even if all the fairly active players(casual, competitive, and in between)all watched counter-strike that's only 1 million...world wide. Needless to say the inevitable must occur and that is to draw viewers from other sources and that's where you have to watch and not just bitch because "your" game didn't make it. As much as people wanna say "I don't give a damn about those games" the truth of the matter is that if companies didn't give a damn, you wouldn't get more than a penny for playing games, so why some gamers get this holier than thou thing going on where they feel they DESERVE money because they play X game is a crock of shit. I'm not admitting there weren't flaws in CGS, really I can find flaws in nearly anything, but you take the good with the bad and weigh it out in the end to see if it works. I hope they come back or ESPN/MLG get things rollin, otherwise it'll be a shaky situation. I know many on this site would love for Korea to branch out, but I think the reality is they just don't have the size that some other areas of the world have. American/European companies are comparatively massive to the Korean channels and so if there's gonna be the whole global e-sports thing, I wouldn't put watermelons into their basket. Ok, I honestly never really paid the CGS enough attention to even be sure what their lineup was, it didn't seem to include any game I was interested in. Hell, I don't even know where I would watch it if I wanted to. But honestly look at the games they have for their lineup: DoA4 - .............. It's an embarassment. (Note: I actually don't know if the actual game is fun, I just hate the whole "I know, let's put gigantic breasts in the game!" deal, I think it makes gaming look stupid) Fifa 08 - No thanks, I barely watch real football. WoW - ... Forza something. - Why would I ever watch this over real racing? I don't even watch real racing for fucks sake. CS:Source - I guess I'd watch if it was on TV. Like, if I could get something like this on TV there are just so many games I'd be interested in watching. Apart from the obvious SC I'd also watch Quake, WC3, probably CS, Street Fighter, Tekken, Super Smash. Hell, even games like Halo I'd probably watch if it was on TV and I've never seen Halo played or played it. On November 20 2008 19:41 WorldComunist8 wrote: The franchise system was interesting. I liked certain aspects and didn't like others. I was not bothered by the fact that Source was included, and I wasn't about to say "Hey, you guys suck, you're doing it all wrong". The problem was, it wasn't truly a "franchise". They still had to go out to LA no matter who was playing. Location based would've been better, IMO. Plus some depth and a longer season. Note, I still support what they were trying to do whole-heartedly. As I said, they tried to do what needs to be done: unite the sports and succeed as an industry, not as a game. I still hold to the fact that outside of Korea, eSports won't succeed any other way. It's too small of a market and inter-dependent on everyone rather than just one group. E-Sports seems to be succeeding just fine in China, and not doing too poorly in Germany. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
On November 20 2008 22:58 MayorITC wrote: Pretty sure FPS are not banned in Korea considering I've seen CS and Sudden Attack matches on TV for the past six years. You really don't know what you're talking about. Yes there are tons of Koreans who play Starcraft, but there's tons of Koreans who play other games. E-sports thrives in Korea not because we narrowed our focus to a single game but rather because of the sheer number of gamers in Korea. Pretty sure 6 years ago it wasn't 1998. You really don't know what you're talking about. My source is from Grrrr's interview on Geartest, but for some frustrating reason, the site is down. http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=sGr&q=geartest patry interview&btnG=Search&meta= | ||
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Alizee-
United States845 Posts
On November 20 2008 23:01 [-Bluewolf-] wrote: People in CGS keep claiming others know nothing about what is watchable - and keep bitching when people outside CGS don't watch it. It doesn't take much to see that the claim of those involved in CGS has a logical fallacy - especially when Tasteless' first English pro-league cast can get millions of viewers internationally. As I recall it was around a million, not millions and it was either 40 or 60% Korean viewers so you got your number a little misrepresented, not that I'm trying to discredit tasteless because he's fuckin awesome, I'm just saying that vaguely claiming millions internationally as though none were Koreans(when in fact like I said I think it was no less than 40%). So yeah, I don't know what CGS got for viewers, I just don't like seeing people giving them any credit even though as I and others have said the game choices weren't the best. Although even though I think watching WoW arena is silly, MLG has it, GomTV has it...so not every game you dislike is guaranteed to be doomed. | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On November 20 2008 22:58 MayorITC wrote: Pretty sure FPS are not banned in Korea considering I've seen CS and Sudden Attack matches on TV for the past six years. You really don't know what you're talking about. Yes there are tons of Koreans who play Starcraft, but there's tons of Koreans who play other games. E-sports thrives in Korea not because we narrowed our focus to a single game but rather because of the sheer number of gamers in Korea. yes, because korea has more gamers than the US concentration maybe, but definitely not sheer numbers lol | ||
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Mazer
Canada1086 Posts
On November 20 2008 19:03 GTR-2-Go wrote: Stop talking out of your ass. 1) Source was only chosen because it was the only viable team-based FPS which was pretty enough to be broadcasted on television, while receiving viewers. It was obvious, if they didn't pick a game that looked good, no one would come watch (DoA over various other good fighting games etc is another example). Agree. On November 20 2008 19:03 GTR-2-Go wrote: 2) One of the reasons why 1.6 players left the 1.6 scene because they were bound to a contract and could not play non-CGS games competitively outside of the CGS circuit. Although there was an exception to this rule (coL playing in CEVO with 1.6), it could have been simply avoided by shaping this rule around to suit the teams needs. Personally though, I think US CS has prospered from the leaving of coL, JMC, EG, 3D etc by garnering new talents such as the players from GG, EG and X30 (who were previously under-looked due to the performances of coL, 3D etc). Well yeah, some of the lesser US teams have come into the spotlight. But on an international stage, Europe (and some Asian teams) are still dominating. On November 20 2008 19:03 GTR-2-Go wrote: 3) The main reason though I think is it was for the money. If I remember correctly, the initial salary per year was 30,000+? After the first season though, it lowered to 25,000 or so. I might be wrong here though. It was an insurance basically, that, even if the players do not perform well, the CGS will be able to compensate and pay the players. Can't really comment much on this, but I would argue that a system similar to any professional league where better players can sign with a team for more money would be the optimal way to go eventually (franchise salary cap, maybe a min also so nobody is going without food). Probably wouldn't work too well with so few franchises. Teams basically live as families and dropping/trading players doesn't seem too probable to happen. On November 20 2008 19:03 GTR-2-Go wrote: 4) If Source is what Valve wanted to aim as the new CS competitive game, why introduce Dynamic Pricing? (Thankfully that could be disabled). Why introduce buying guns without having to buy ammo? Why do a stupid, MR10, 16k Start Money system? CGS and Valve basically dumbed down CS to the point where it isn't even worth watching. I enjoy watching the pistol round, and to be honest, I think it is one of the most strategical rounds next to the first rifle round. I get excited when teams miraculously win their eco rounds. I don't enjoy 5 players with full grenades/armor on the first round. Most of the thinking required behind CS with the money management was basically lost with the new system being introduced. Dynamic Pricing was just a random (dumb) idea thrown in. It was obviously never meant for competitive play and I doubt anyone actually scrimmed with it implemented. Don't even see why that was even mentioned. Buying ammo isn't much of a game changer as it affect everyone equally. I mean, either we all have to buy ammo, or we all get full ammo with our guns. I guess the leading team keeps some more momentum with the 1.6 style but who dictates if that's necessarily good or bad? Not much of a factor with $16k either. As for their ruleset choice, the idea was to have fast rounds, fast halves, with a lot of action. 2x10 rounds at 1:20 give you a more controllable length of match time which is needed for broadcasting purposes. Yes, I'm not a big fan as this restricts a lot of strats that require more time to execute but I just don't see how 2x15 (or 2x10) 3:00 rounds can be done. I *love* pistol rounds also, but losing that round generally leads to another 3-4 losses. With only 10 rounds per half, that puts way too much importance on winning that one round. In 1.6 tourneys/leagues/etc., pistol round works because you still have 14 rounds after that and have a chance to rally. I think they made a lot of logical choices, it's just that people have gotten so used to 1.6, changes like this seem so far out and are shunned. On November 20 2008 19:03 GTR-2-Go wrote: 5) What material are you talking about? The ill-fated CSPromod was a step in the right direction, yet a step in the wrong direction. It is best for Valve to produce something similar to this, as it is 1.6 game play wise, yet Source graphic wise, a good combination if you want a game which everyone knows/agrees with yet is broadcast able. Yea, Valve definitely dropped the ball here. I can't say I hate CS:S mechanics but there clearly are some flaws that should have been identified and fixed several years ago. | ||
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cava
United States1035 Posts
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On November 20 2008 18:24 WorldComunist8 wrote: 1) Game choice did not ruin this league. We, the fans, did. We decided that because our favorite game was not involved, we wouldn't give a damn. SC wasn't in it, so half of us didn't watch. Understandable. Source was chosen over 1.6. Get over it and watch it and support this cause. For the other 3 games, they were trying to make it multi-dimensional. Whether they were the right or wrong choices didn't matter. They were learning. There were plans on changing the games anyways before next season. You can't start a revolution with one group. They needed the support of everyone to get going. Not just the fans of the chosen games. ROFL So like, if Heroes gets cancelled after this season, then it's not the fault of the writers for writing ridiculous storylines that make people hate to watch the show, it's our fault for not watching anyway! The stupidity of this logic is mind-boggling. | ||
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MayorITC
Korea (South)798 Posts
Source: http://www.gamespot.com/news/6163609.html Thyis is further evident by the fact that there are FPS games that were available in Korea since 1998. Rainbow Six was released in 1998 and was an instant hit at PC Bangs. For awhile it even shared the limelight on TV with Starcraft. Anyway, this is all a deviation from the main point. Starcraft is hardly the focal point of the Korean gaming industry (not to be confused with the e-sport industry). While Starcraft may be the dominant game in Korean e-sports that doesn't necessarily equate to it being the dominant game in Korea. MMORPGs actually have a larger share in the Korean gaming industry. However, due to the nature of MMORPGs it's hard to convert it into an e-sport as exemplified by WoW. Thus you can't say that e-sport is successful in Korea because they honed in on a single game because it's simply not true. There are so many different games that were broadcoasted in Korea in the past 10 years. Diablo II, Starcraft, Crazy Arcade, Sudden Attack, Rainbow Six, Counter Strike, and hell, even Tetris Online. The Korean culture made games as a whole extremely popular in the country. But Starcraft being championed above all other games on TV has nothing to do with the Korean culture, but more with the nature of the game itself. And to conclude all of this post by tying it into the topic. If you want a few select games to thrive as an e-sport, you have to embrace the entire gaming industry. It has nothing to do with liking a specific title more; choosing Starcraft over DoA 4 or America choosing baseball over soccer. Because before people even elevated one sport over another, they had to address the basic issue: Is America willing to accept sports as a form of commercialized entertainment? | ||
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