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Your ugly part makes no sense and I think you are just delusional. The lack of things to do @ 50 could be cause there are few 50s at the moment so no real pugs or raiding going on for a lot of them. Did you just say WoW's 5mans were better than TOR's? Try comparing Stockades to Black Talon... I'd take Black Talon any day!
Compare Athiss or Hammer Station to any of the more recent WoW fivemans in terms of encounter depth and narrative relevance. Black Talon is an irregularity in TOR so far, not the norm - its good, no faulting it, I enjoyed it - I was hoping there'd be more of it. Then I did Hammer Station and Athiss. Hammer Station had the cool asteroid cannon but little else that made it interesting, Athiss was confusing and bland - most of the enemies weren't even elite and the boss fights fairly simple, being chased around by little fires was a cute move but compare it to the majority of WoW's newer five mans and its still fairly shallow. Mandalorian raiders had some nice set pieces (fighting an enemy faction party for example) but... overall still felt a little dry.
The correct thing I think they realised in WoW's expansions was the instances had to mean something. A lot of them were a sort of 'end of zone' quest area. The Nexus in Coldarra for example was the final point of a quest chain you were doing in that region, same with the Halls of Origination or Grim Batol. As I quested through the zone I wanted to go in there and finish them off, but the way TOR handles it is a random message I get sending me to these random places to solve random problems I had no notion of before. Its a narrative gap that just adds to the feeling of gameyness and takes away from the feeling of this actually being a galaxy with a story in it.
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^, WoW's 'story' is so poorly presented that I can barely establish any context to any action I take in WoW. Whole expansion about Deathwing, all I know is he's easy to kill, drops purples, and the spine of dw is 0% fun to heal "absorb absorb absorb, are you having fun yet?!?" "No."
Quest text is the worst possible presentation for a story (in a game), while VA is the best and dialogue bubbly conversations (like FF9 and earlier) are just below it... (imo)
VA/Written Dialogue is like a hamburger cut up into small(va) or medium(dialogue) pieces, easy to eat, decent/good presentation. Quest text is like a hamburger pre-chewed, inedible presentation. Same content, but such different presentation.
Also, mute player characters suck.
Even in areas where WoW's presentation doesn't completely suck, it's poorly written, such as Thrall; he is a hateable character, but not in the way that he's a well written character that is designed to be hateable, he's just a poorly written crap character. That prick you meet as a Sith Inquisitor when you start, he's hateable, but not crap.
Also that 'narrative gap'... BC/WotLK are really jarring, the fact they're still there makes no sense,there's no argument for LK to still exist, BC is at least some weird space time continuum nonsense('least that's what some lore nerd friend said to me.. something along those lines, as the excuse), but still.. completely jarring gap.
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Anyway, I've not done those instances, or any, since I only played the beta, and was more concerned about the class story... but I can't really imagine them being more meaningless than WoW's crap.
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People seem to be missing at the difference between Atmosphere and Story.
TOR's story is miles ahead than WoW's, hands down, no question.
WoW has far more atmosphere, however.
Let me explain as simply as I can; none of TOR's environments feel like people could live or work in them. I haven't yet got the feeling that I'm exploring a world - more that I'm proceeding from quest zone to quest zone.
I did say in my wall of text that TOR's questing is very well done, including how bonus quests are done. Yes, BC/WotLK are now totally out of time-sync with the rest of WoW, but its not the point I'm making here.
When going through Nar Shaddaa did you get any idea of what it would be like to live on that world?
On Tatooine, did you think it was an inhospitable place with people trying to trick you out of everything you own?
It all feels very... static, and built around the player. The Space Stations are the worst offenders - there's no life in them at all, just a lot of things for players to use. We don't get any idea of why else it exists or what it does. There's no atmosphere to the place, no reason for it to be there other than to serve as a place for an AH and trainers. Compare it to the easiest referencable material - Stormwind and Orgrimmar - and you get a feel for culture and the people who built it and live there. That's what TOR lacks.
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On December 25 2011 04:52 Lumicide wrote:
^, WoW's 'story' is so poorly presented that I can barely establish any context to any action I take in WoW. Whole expansion about Deathwing, all I know is he's easy to kill, drops purples, and the spine of dw is 0% fun to heal "absorb absorb absorb, are you having fun yet?!?" "No."
Quest text is the worst possible presentation for a story (in a game), while VA is the best and dialogue bubbly conversations (like FF9 and earlier) are just below it... (imo)
VA/Written Dialogue is like a hamburger cut up into small(va) or medium(dialogue) pieces, easy to eat, decent/good presentation. Quest text is like a hamburger pre-chewed, inedible presentation. Same content, but such different presentation.
Also, mute player characters suck.
Even in areas where WoW's presentation doesn't completely suck, it's poorly written, such as Thrall; he is a hateable character, but not in the way that he's a well written character that is designed to be hateable, he's just a poorly written crap character. That prick you meet as a Sith Inquisitor when you start, he's hateable, but not crap.
Also that 'narrative gap'... BC/WotLK are really jarring, the fact they're still there makes no sense,there's no argument for LK to still exist, BC is at least some weird space time continuum nonsense('least that's what some lore nerd friend said to me.. something along those lines, as the excuse), but still.. completely jarring gap.
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Anyway, I've not done those instances, or any, since I only played the beta, and was more concerned about the class story... but I can't really imagine them being more meaningless than WoW's crap.
Why, sir, are you posting in a Star Wars thread about World of Warcraft? I cannot see your post referring to the game in question for any more than a sentence and even then you dont directly reference anything.
Stop talking about World of god damn Warcraft.
Because I didn't play that game post lv10, I can safely provide an unbiased opinion of the instances I have done. Most are indeed fairly simple but as it has been stated time and time again, it is the story that matters and I could recite the story and what happens to the characters in each of them. They were all a pretty good length, were all engaging (albeit not particularly difficult) and provided reasonable rewards relative to the amount of time being put into them. (I come from an FFXI background where these types of rewards would take approx 6 hours of work with a group of 6, not so fun).
I look forward to the next set of instances I need to do!
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
We are posting in this thread about Wow because it is plainly clear how SWTOR is extremely similar to Wow.
Story in an instance is great. I'd do each instance once for the story. After that, no thanks.
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On December 25 2011 05:15 Firebolt145 wrote:
We are posting in this thread about Wow because it is plainly clear how SWTOR is extremely similar to Wow.
Story in an instance is great. I'd do each instance once for the story. After that, no thanks.
Exactly
Story is fan-fucking-tastic, but if there no diversity -- who cares after the first time?
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On December 25 2011 05:02 Kisra wrote:
People seem to be missing at the difference between Atmosphere and Story.
TOR's story is miles ahead than WoW's, hands down, no question.
WoW has far more atmosphere, however.
Let me explain as simply as I can; none of TOR's environments feel like people could live or work in them. I haven't yet got the feeling that I'm exploring a world - more that I'm proceeding from quest zone to quest zone.
I did say in my wall of text that TOR's questing is very well done, including how bonus quests are done. Yes, BC/WotLK are now totally out of time-sync with the rest of WoW, but its not the point I'm making here.
When going through Nar Shaddaa did you get any idea of what it would be like to live on that world?
On Tatooine, did you think it was an inhospitable place with people trying to trick you out of everything you own?
It all feels very... static, and built around the player. The Space Stations are the worst offenders - there's no life in them at all, just a lot of things for players to use. We don't get any idea of why else it exists or what it does. There's no atmosphere to the place, no reason for it to be there other than to serve as a place for an AH and trainers. Compare it to the easiest referencable material - Stormwind and Orgrimmar - and you get a feel for culture and the people who built it and live there. That's what TOR lacks.
I'm sorry I just can't agree with you at all, TOR's atmosphere is so much more detailed and realistic than WoW's. TOR planet's are so much more realistic than WoW zones, TOR quest hubs much more believable than WoW villages.
Nar Shadda puts Ironforge, Stormwind, etc to shame in atmosphere. You get the feeling that it's completely believable that billions of people live there. Tatooine had one of the best atmospheres as well, it really is this massive desert with small cities and outposts spread throughout with people everywhere working. The amount of detail they put in cities with guards and citizens walking around/talking/working at stations provides so much atmosphere and immersion, you see nothing comparable in WoW.
The little farms you see in Elwynn and Westfall are a joke compared to this, Stormwind and Ironforge culture pales in comparison to the feeling you get in each planet that has distinct atmosphere and environment.
The Imperial Space Fleet has no atmosphere? I think you might just be too biased against this game or something because there's no way you can seriously argue the locations in TOR have no atmosphere, you're just being really nitpicky. Why does it exist and what does it do? Really? You should be able to answer those questions.
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People saying swtor lacks atmosphere and immersion must have played a different WoW than me, because that is 2 things that SWTOR beats WoW in by a landslide.
Combat however, feels more crisp and less clunky in WoW. I hope they continue to improve that. Also the UI in SWTOR is absolutely horrendous, so little information and customization yet so much clutter and such large graphical elements.
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On December 25 2011 05:47 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2011 05:02 Kisra wrote:
People seem to be missing at the difference between Atmosphere and Story.
TOR's story is miles ahead than WoW's, hands down, no question.
WoW has far more atmosphere, however.
Let me explain as simply as I can; none of TOR's environments feel like people could live or work in them. I haven't yet got the feeling that I'm exploring a world - more that I'm proceeding from quest zone to quest zone.
I did say in my wall of text that TOR's questing is very well done, including how bonus quests are done. Yes, BC/WotLK are now totally out of time-sync with the rest of WoW, but its not the point I'm making here.
When going through Nar Shaddaa did you get any idea of what it would be like to live on that world?
On Tatooine, did you think it was an inhospitable place with people trying to trick you out of everything you own?
It all feels very... static, and built around the player. The Space Stations are the worst offenders - there's no life in them at all, just a lot of things for players to use. We don't get any idea of why else it exists or what it does. There's no atmosphere to the place, no reason for it to be there other than to serve as a place for an AH and trainers. Compare it to the easiest referencable material - Stormwind and Orgrimmar - and you get a feel for culture and the people who built it and live there. That's what TOR lacks. TOR planet's are so much more realistic than WoW zones
Realistic is the wrong word. Believable maybe, but definitely not "realistic"
Even though I think both have shitty atmospheres =/ The writing in SWTOR is clearly better, but Atmosphers...eh...
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Nar Shadda puts Ironforge, Stormwind, etc to shame in atmosphere. You get the feeling that it's completely believable that billions of people live there. Tatooine had one of the best atmospheres as well, it really is this massive desert with small cities and outposts spread throughout with people everywhere working. The amount of detail they put in cities with guards and citizens walking around/talking/working at stations provides so much atmosphere and immersion, you see nothing comparable in WoW.
How does Nar Shaddaa do this? All I remember about Nar Shaddaa is fighting exchange members again and again in big 'street' rooms that had crates and such in them. The promenade had some signs of day to day life but very few people inhabiting it. The casino has a bit of life to it, but remains unused - at least for Imperials, not sure if the Republic go there for anything.
Tatooine... I didn't get much feeling for the culture there. Just sent killing Sand People and exchange again and bouncing from Imperial Camp to Imperial Camp. There's the occasional conversation but they're few and far between.
The game has good environmental design - some of the vistas they give are really breathtaking - its just hard to get a feel for each world beyond something very flat or what they outright tell you. There's snippets - like seeing the Jawa Balloon floating over the Dune Sea gave me a real "Oh, neat, wonder what that's about" feel to it, but when moving from Imperial Outpost 3255 to Imperial Outpost 7545 on another world I just don't feel too engaged.
The Imperial Space Fleet has no atmosphere? I think you might just be too biased against this game or something because there's no way you can seriously argue the locations in TOR have no atmosphere, you're just being really nitpicky. Why does it exist and what does it do? Really? You should be able to answer those questions.
I'm deadly serious about the Space Station. I can make up reasons why it exists and what it does, but all I get to see is a ring where, for some reason, there's small little sections for each class to receive training. Why am I being trained by someone in a small booth next to some other guy from a completely different walk of life being trained in the same place? The shops or crafting areas also have no real feel to them - they're clearly there for the players benefit, not for the "worldbuilding" or anything. It's artificial.
Who lives and works on the space station? Who runs it? As far as I can tell it exists because the developers needed a hub to cram the auction houses and direct players to between worlds, not for any reason to do with the story or any over-arching narrative. The fact that the Imperial and Republic stations are complete mirrors just demonstrates my point - they're flat, designed-totally-for-player-use and have little else going for them. They built somewhere for amenities and then stuffed the players in there. Let's take Stormwind again - it has cheese shops. My rogue was trained at their special operations HQ, my mage at their mage school, and so on. It has people and places entirely for flavour. It's a place aswell as a hub.
I use WoW references because its something that everything is familiar with. I can use analogues from a lot of MMOs, however, but WoW's just easier. I'm also aware this is an opinion thing, some of you could find these worlds amazing and they suck you right in, which case, great - just not doing it for me. I don't get much urge to really explore around or get to know the world, or think about what it'd be like to live there. Azeroth did okay with that - funnily enough, Age of Conan's major cities did really well with that. I'll also say going off GW2's blogs, its also lining up for doing well with that, spending a lot of time getting each race's capitol correct and their relative questing environments feeling right.
Combat however, feels more crisp and less clunky in WoW. I hope they continue to improve that. Also the UI in SWTOR is absolutely horrendous, so little information and customization yet so much clutter and such large graphical elements.
Come the revolution SWTOR's UI developers are first up against the wall.
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I think the pitfall of this game is the cutscene. At the end of a beefy, 5-10 part quest chain where I'm about to bring down a gang leader or save a scientist, sure I would love to see a cutscene. However when I'm just arriving on a planet and a merchant asks me to recover his stolen goods, I really do not need to sit through a five minute speech about how much he needs his stolen mechanical parts (or whatever). So much effort is put into giving a random beggar or citizen lines and lines of dialogue for one quest in one zone. Why not put that same effort into the city? Why is my trainer, a master Jedi, selling force powers and light saber techniques behind a counter? Does he work at McJedi's serving french fries too? He should be in some sort of Jedi temple, perfecting his techniques and training Padawans as well.
Pretty much agree with everything Kisra has said too.
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Another thing that Kisra touched on is that the cutscene narrative is too direct. For 5mans you're dragged off into some random place completely unrelated to the main story (which are a pain in the ass to get to btw), and because the game is supposedly so story driven, they have to give you another cutscene before you go in. Why? The way WoW set it up was simple and smart. You enter Zangarmarsh and immediately you know what's going on, you have the Naga doing a bunch of evil, they're polluting/corrupting everything, so the Cenarion Circle is going to stop them. Your quests naturally lead into the narrative of the 5 mans, which naturally lead into the raid instance, which naturally lead you to the future instances and the end of the game.
Compare that to Taris (SWTOR) and you have the exact opposite. There's this long chain where you find a cryogenically frozen vault filled with important figures from the past. There's also the infectious Rakghoul disease that you spend about 20 quests trying to solve and then nothing. In either of those story arcs a dungeon resolving either would have been brilliant, but instead Bioware decides to go off on an a tangent.
And that's just story, in terms of combat, interface, quest design... all comparable to 2004 WoW (if not worse).
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Still loving this game i'm 42 jedi knight almost 43  . Can't believe I finally found an MMO that I can play a ton and not get sick of it. Very well done by bioware and the main story god so addicting :D
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It could literally just be that I find the space frontier much more interesting than the WoW one, but I can't disagree more strongly with the last two pages of posts.
Maybe you guys haven't played SWTOR enough in comparison to the years you've spent playing WoW, but I'm far far far more impressed with the leveling in SWTOR in pretty much every aspect. Yes, the UI is bad. So was WoW's at launch. I dunno.
Some of the stuff in this game makes me stop and think about what just happened in awe.
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On December 24 2011 17:22 Fzero wrote:I just hit 33 on Veela, Fzero the Honorable of The Teamliquid Legacy. Jedi Guardian aka prot tank I'm having a blast so far. I've been hard pressed to do anything else outside of work than play the game. Haven't been this sucked into a game for a while. I miss Dota 2 beta, but not enough to stop playing lol. Only real complaint I have so far is that the skill trees seem to be a bit of a mess. Lots of useless stuff that feel like point wasters. Edit: I'm streaming most of the time at http://twitch.tv/fzerotl if you ever want to see what I'm up to.
Hey hey ur on the same server as me!!! im a 33 Shield Tech on emprie side. Maybe see u in pvp sometime, name is PHILtheTANK.
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people keep ninjaing my damn lightsabers, endurence + strength isn't for casters!!!
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On December 25 2011 11:32 Fzero wrote:
It could literally just be that I find the space frontier much more interesting than the WoW one, but I can't disagree more strongly with the last two pages of posts.
Maybe you guys haven't played SWTOR enough in comparison to the years you've spent playing WoW, but I'm far far far more impressed with the leveling in SWTOR in pretty much every aspect. Yes, the UI is bad. So was WoW's at launch. I dunno.
Some of the stuff in this game makes me stop and think about what just happened in awe.
I defiantly don't actually like the typical fantasy setting, even though I've been playing WoW for ages... I kinda just put up with it, so I do very much more enjoy the setting of SWTOR.
I don''t think the UI was 'bad' perfectly functional, good looking, just couldn't move stuff around and I'm not all that fond of their map, can't make it smaller, and the minimap felt somewhat useless.
However, I do have a bit of a complaint with how they structured the questing after the starter worlds, their decision to make it feel more 'mmoey'. I don't really care that much for the core quests, they're pretty uninteresting for the most part and sorta detract from the immersion of the class quests. And PvP isn't really a viable alternative for the core quests, when I get bored of them, since I'll just get bored of those too eventually.
However, that may have had something to do with rushing content (lvl 10 and 31 in a weekend...), maybe it feels better paced if you're casual about leveling.
That said I am more impressed with it in leveling than in any MMO previous to it that I've played.
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Got an Imperial Agent to level six and just gave up, so fucking boring >< I might go back to it and hope it gets better. Playing a Jedi Sentinel at lvl 11 right now and quite enjoying it.
I tried the Esseles flashpoint and about 2/3 of the way through I got dc'd. When I returned myscreen was black, but I could see my UI, so I relogged to try and fix it. When I returned I found myself removed from the group and kicked out of the flashpoint. Pretty fucking annoying :<
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So I'm nearly level 36 now and I've done Tython, Coruscant, Nar Shadaa, and Taris, and I still have the following planets to do......
Alderaan
Balmora
Quesh
Hoth
Belsavis
Voss
Corellia
Hutta
Ilum
Um, if they don't get much smaller I'm hitting 50 way before the end. I just got on Alderaan and all my quests are grey/green.
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derp who cares
Fzero:
That`s normal and the typical MMO problem. You reach max level before you complete every area.
Also in MMORPGs`s time = everything. If you (everyone) have a cool concept which breaks with this mantra - share it with everyone
About difficulty:
Leveling dungeons need to contain tank & spank. As I mentioned early WoW (primus of MMOs, therefore it's mentioned) had a lot of tank & spank in it's introduction raid (MC)).
You do have people in SWTOR who have never played a MMORPG before. It cannot cater only to WoW experienced players, or it WILL fail.
Of course it can progress through difficulty faster, but you still need to teach people the basics. Therefore you start with tank & spank. Athiss, Candemimu (sic?), Telos V (sic?) all have encounters which require more than just basic tank & spank.
The same principle applies to the raid tier. You cannot apply WoW difficulty to it, you have new players who need to learn the basics. So if experienced WoW guilds try normal/hardmode of course they will succeed with ease. Since world top guilds (in WoW) like Irae AoD (that's why I asked Fruiscante for guilds who cleared it on nightmare, which he failed to provide, for multiple times) didnt manage to clear Nightmare Mode that is actually a very good sign.
Btw please provide ideas to make a mmorpg competitive without making invested time the most important factor!
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EPT
