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On July 31 2011 09:38 Judicator wrote:
No, competitive scene will exist, but not within that artificial "esports" framework that people like bring up nowadays.
It's just a different trajectory to mainstream, whether it's actually achievable or not. I mentioned earlier that DotA/HoN/LoL doesn't hinge on the players or teams as much as it does on the commentators, more so than any other game. Right now, there's no face of DotA/HoN/LoL, no personality that just sits in the back of your mind when you think of these games; there are players and teams for sure, but no personality. There isn't a Day[9], a Mike Ross/Gootecks, or anything of the sort, and given the 5v5 nature of the scene, there won't be one from the players side.
Well, even if a Day9 happened to show up in the HoN/DotA scene, there wouldn't be anywhere near the amount of people interested in watching him in the first place. First the games need to grow a playerbase big enough for someone to have the incentive to create a show such as what Day9 has set up. However, I believe that LoL has the potential to make it far in the esports business.
Also, I think that our definitions of a competitive scene has been differing the entire time. I have been using the terms esports and competitive scene almost interchangeably, while you and rabidch both seem to understand it as when top tier teams regularly compete for whatever reason.
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On July 31 2011 10:15 GhostKorean wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2011 09:38 Judicator wrote:
No, competitive scene will exist, but not within that artificial "esports" framework that people like bring up nowadays.
It's just a different trajectory to mainstream, whether it's actually achievable or not. I mentioned earlier that DotA/HoN/LoL doesn't hinge on the players or teams as much as it does on the commentators, more so than any other game. Right now, there's no face of DotA/HoN/LoL, no personality that just sits in the back of your mind when you think of these games; there are players and teams for sure, but no personality. There isn't a Day[9], a Mike Ross/Gootecks, or anything of the sort, and given the 5v5 nature of the scene, there won't be one from the players side. Well, even if a Day9 happened to show up in the HoN/DotA scene, there wouldn't be anywhere near the amount of people interested in watching him in the first place. First the games need to grow a playerbase big enough for someone to have the incentive to create a show such as what Day9 has set up. However, I believe that LoL has the potential to make it far in the esports business. Also, I think that our definitions of a competitive scene has been differing the entire time. I have been using the terms esports and competitive scene almost interchangeably, while you and rabidch both seem to understand it as when top tier teams regularly compete for whatever reason.
because you havent cared about other games competitively. not every video game was streamed/televised/online
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Competition forces players to constantly improve and without a big scene the skill level will stagnate. Fun and competitive nature may be enough for a decent competitive scene but in a small game such as HoN eventually people will just stop caring enough to compete and the game slowly dies as new games come out.
I seem to be thinking far more long term than you guys are thinking. I'm thinking in the scale of Korean Brood War, a game that is played even after countless new games are released
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The issue with dota/hon casts in english I think is more one of consistency. If I want to watch an sc2 match with an entertaining caster I know I can watch a live match with commentary at almost any time of the day. (I'm speaking entertaining rather than 'good' caster here), while with hon honcast is on like 4-5x a month at completely random times(and the time isn't balanced well, as each cast is like 2-3 hours typically. a bit more time than most people are willing to invest to just watch something). Dotacommentaries.com or whatever has <200 entries for several years with something like 7-8 casters.
There's also nothing as well done as the tlpd for hon especially (It's to the point where the only way to keep track of how well teams are doing is to check their ingame stats or hope jah has been compiling stats again).
All of these things would likely be solved with a larger community, but maybe not.
(Same goes for lack of good casters - an entertaining caster can eventually become better if they do it consistently)
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That comes back to a not big enough community/interest in the games. Bigger playerbase = more competitive players = more tournaments and interest
A bigger community wouldn't necessarily solve the problem but I feel that it is necessary to have a large playerbase to have a large competitive scene
Breaky has been casting forever but he hasn't really improved much. He still has the 1600 mmr analysis going on after what, a year and a half?
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On July 31 2011 10:33 GhostKorean wrote:
That comes back to a not big enough community/interest in the games. Bigger playerbase = more competitive players = more tournaments and interest
A bigger community wouldn't necessarily solve the problem but I feel that it is necessary to have a large playerbase to have a large competitive scene
Breaky has been casting forever but he hasn't really improved much. He still has the 1600 mmr analysis going on after what, a year and a half?
Yep, it would take a caster that actually is willing to try to improve... which he isn't. He really has no motivation to do so either, his competition is less organized and more drama-y (gamereplays) and s2 just hands him money hand over fist.
I think a good comparison would be djwheat vs breaky, they started at around the same time at around the same level but wheat has improved significantly in game knowledge.
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On July 31 2011 10:24 GhostKorean wrote:
Competition forces players to constantly improve and without a big scene the skill level will stagnate. Fun and competitive nature may be enough for a decent competitive scene but in a small game such as HoN eventually people will just stop caring enough to compete and the game slowly dies as new games come out.
I seem to be thinking far more long term than you guys are thinking. I'm thinking in the scale of Korean Brood War, a game that is played even after countless new games are released
Negative, fighting games and Evo grew out of arcades with no cameras and shitty vods (think people with cams actually recording shit live). The problem is literally the personalities and/or commentators, the genre is horribly unfriendly to new and casuals. You can't bring people into the scene, then the new business models that LoL/HoN have employed is god fucking awful for players to get into competitive situations if they wish to.
People hoping to get LoL/HoN/DotA big and popular has to realize that deck is heavily stacked against them to succeed solely based on the genre.
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On July 31 2011 10:40 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2011 10:24 GhostKorean wrote:
Competition forces players to constantly improve and without a big scene the skill level will stagnate. Fun and competitive nature may be enough for a decent competitive scene but in a small game such as HoN eventually people will just stop caring enough to compete and the game slowly dies as new games come out.
I seem to be thinking far more long term than you guys are thinking. I'm thinking in the scale of Korean Brood War, a game that is played even after countless new games are released Negative, fighting games and Evo grew out of arcades with no cameras and shitty vods (think people with cams actually recording shit live). The problem is literally the personalities and/or commentators, the genre is horribly unfriendly to new and casuals. You can't bring people into the scene, then the new business models that LoL/HoN have employed is god fucking awful for players to get into competitive situations if they wish to. People hoping to get LoL/HoN/DotA big and popular has to realize that deck is heavily stacked against them to succeed solely based on the genre.
Agreed very much. But Capcom and other companies have been good (especially compared to other companies) with making sequels.
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I personally don't see how a big scene can come out without big sponsors and tournaments but I guess it works
I also agree fully with the HoN/DotA/LoL being extremely unfriendly to observers. However, I believe that all games are very unfriendly to casual observers even games like Starcraft 2 and Brood War. I guess fighting games are an exception but I personally find them boring to watch.
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On July 31 2011 10:48 rabidch wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2011 10:40 Judicator wrote:On July 31 2011 10:24 GhostKorean wrote:
Competition forces players to constantly improve and without a big scene the skill level will stagnate. Fun and competitive nature may be enough for a decent competitive scene but in a small game such as HoN eventually people will just stop caring enough to compete and the game slowly dies as new games come out.
I seem to be thinking far more long term than you guys are thinking. I'm thinking in the scale of Korean Brood War, a game that is played even after countless new games are released Negative, fighting games and Evo grew out of arcades with no cameras and shitty vods (think people with cams actually recording shit live). The problem is literally the personalities and/or commentators, the genre is horribly unfriendly to new and casuals. You can't bring people into the scene, then the new business models that LoL/HoN have employed is god fucking awful for players to get into competitive situations if they wish to. People hoping to get LoL/HoN/DotA big and popular has to realize that deck is heavily stacked against them to succeed solely based on the genre. Agreed very much. But Capcom and other companies have been good (especially compared to other companies) with making sequels.
That's an understatement. Every game released nowadays is a sequel
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tt esports final is ongoing. Neat gimmick about it is that you can watch different perspectives.
honcast is casting. (I believe s2's diva is co-caster)
http://www.justin.tv/sn3yking (sgty)
http://www.justin.tv/amx10 (col)
I think maybe 1-2 more players are streaming, but sn3y was advertising it.
Weird statements coming out already from sgty- andro counters vindi (what), glacius counters ophelia(uhh).
Basically drafting in hon is at a sad sad state.
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Not sure if its a good thing or a bad thing about Hons proscene but all the tournaments seem to be so long its near impossible to tell how the brackets look from just watching the games. I enjoy watching the matches but you don't see how the various teams stack up and who is ahead of who, Dreamhack was an exception and showed MSI's dominance but its something I miss with just watching Honcast occasionally.
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On July 31 2011 11:20 Nevuk wrote:tt esports final is ongoing. Neat gimmick about it is that you can watch different perspectives. honcast is casting. (I believe s2's diva is co-caster) http://www.justin.tv/sn3yking (sgty) http://www.justin.tv/amx10 (col) I think maybe 1-2 more players are streaming, but sn3y was advertising it. Weird statements coming out already from sgty- andro counters vindi (what), glacius counters ophelia(uhh). Basically drafting in hon is at a sad sad state.
ehh ... it's stretching it to call them counters, but wave + swap can help you find and focus down the vindi (who'll usually be doing his utmost to position himself far, far behind teammates). Glacius' hold lasts a looooong time on neutrals (10 sec? + corresponding dps) which can really defang an ophelia's early ganking potential if you lane him with your farmer.
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By that logic andro counters every hero
Glac hold lasts 10 seconds only at level 4
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On July 31 2011 12:11 GhostKorean wrote:
By that logic andro counters every hero
Glac hold lasts 10 seconds only at level 4
Hold lasts 10 seconds at every level, you can jungle the ancients with glacius at level 1. (it's slow).
I just don't know if it works for ophelia's creeps.
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By that logic andro counters every hero
Its not a direct counter at all no but it helps with bursting down by swapping him in and using wave to gain vision to swap. A dead Vindi doesn't give his aura. Not many heroes can just hang around the back doing very little in terms of actions and still contribute massively to the teamfight through an aura.
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On July 31 2011 12:17 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2011 12:11 GhostKorean wrote:
By that logic andro counters every hero
Glac hold lasts 10 seconds only at level 4 Hold lasts 10 seconds at every level, you can jungle the ancients with glacius at level 1. (it's slow). I just don't know if it works for ophelia's creeps.
Wait really? I didn't know that, my bad
And I think we can at least agree that Andro is just a really good hero
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On July 31 2011 10:50 GhostKorean wrote:
I personally don't see how a big scene can come out without big sponsors and tournaments but I guess it works
I also agree fully with the HoN/DotA/LoL being extremely unfriendly to observers. However, I believe that all games are very unfriendly to casual observers even games like Starcraft 2 and Brood War. I guess fighting games are an exception but I personally find them boring to watch.
It's the other way around, once the scene gets big enough with the necessary and continual support of the makers, the sponsors and tournaments will come. You don't just start with big sponsors and tournaments. In other words, the scene has to be self-sustaining in order to attract the big people.
SC2/BW are easier to explain to people many times over than HDL. The difference is again, the commentators and the scene in general. There's no real life meet up for HDL like a MLG or a fighting game major simply because getting 5 motherfuckers together is hard as fuck never mind 3 or 4 teams.
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On July 31 2011 12:20 GhostKorean wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2011 12:17 Nevuk wrote:On July 31 2011 12:11 GhostKorean wrote:
By that logic andro counters every hero
Glac hold lasts 10 seconds only at level 4 Hold lasts 10 seconds at every level, you can jungle the ancients with glacius at level 1. (it's slow). I just don't know if it works for ophelia's creeps. Wait really? I didn't know that, my bad And I think we can at least agree that Andro is just a really good hero
Yeah, glacius has one of the best recoveries from being raped in lane (for a support hero I mean). Can jungle anything as soon as you get hold. (Usually if i have 0 gpm after laning phase, no boots or anything but wards I'll jungle either ancients or a hard camp to get boots/tp/ward money).
Sgty outpicked col extremely hard both games, and outplayed them very hard both as well. (Basically tempest/ophelia picks raped col's super standard trilanes. Only creative pick from col was armadon, and it wound up not working well at all).
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kraken pharaoh bomb andro...nice picks col
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EPT
